When questioned about the change in characterization...

Barbara was brought back as Batgirl for the New 52 - replacing Stephanie Brown
Cassandra Cain had been screwed out of being Batgirl several years earlier

Cassandra got screwed in the One Year Later story in 2006

>Batman 66 began in 2013 long after all of this
We're talking about the actual Adam West show.
>The 1997 movie wasn't Barbara Gordon
They changed her last name, it was still a white girl named Barbara.
>So that leaves you with only Batman TAS
One of the most critically acclaimed cartoons of all time and constant rerun on 90s CN.

Compared to Cass's
>
>
>

>come on DC just couldn't stop fucking him the 1990s totally different situation
No, it's really not. He was dead, he was done, and a fanboy who couldn't let go brought him back to temporary sales success and complete brand regression.

>nigga pls
Say that to yourself: normal people don't care if you call Batman Bruce, Dick or Damien. They just like Batman as a concept. The refusal to let Bruce move on is 100% petulant fanboys.

Steph was a compromise since they couldn't risk undoing years of stories. When they got a chance at a linewide reboot, they threw the blonde in the trash.

well she was in tiny titans for like a scene?

>He was dead, he was done, and a fanboy who couldn't let go brought him back to temporary sales success and complete brand regression.
>Say that to yourself: normal people don't care if you call Batman Bruce, Dick or Damien. They just like Batman as a concept. The refusal to let Bruce move on is 100% petulant fanboys.
the comics are not about characters growing and changing and moving on, that's not a superhero comic
This is just being an edgelord
Well yeah she'd been Spoiler for years
I never understood her appeal or becoming Batgirl anyway

and then later she became robin and then lost that too
WHO MAKES THESE DECISIONS

>the comics are not about characters growing and changing and moving on, that's not a superhero comic
>This is just being an edgelord
Hi, I want you to meet Amazing Spider-Man from 1963 to 1989.

Bringing back a character like Hal from a story like the one he went through and cleaning the slate is nothing but a bad call. All you get out of it, at best, is name-recognition nostalgia. It's okay to leave Kent Nelson in the grave. It's alright to let Norman Osborne stay dead. There's nothing wrong with letting Barry hang up the boots. Dredging the past up after it's laid to rest only serves to strangle future writers and limit your brand's future. They're symbols, not people, you can let the person behind the mask go if their story is over.

Backwards, it was Spoiler > Robin > Batgirl.
Robin was a random push, Batgirl was appeasement + "Fuck Cass."

Just to clear up the timeline, Steph was Spoiler, then Robin, then died, then came back as Spoiler, then became Batgirl, then went back to Spoiler.

Doing that to a character like Hal for no other reason than the be edgy is a bad call

But you're partly right, they should have left Barbara crippled and not fuckedup Cassandra
Imperfect or not reversing them causes too much headache

thanks
I don't care for spoiler so don't know her continuity that well

I think that's a fair assessment. However, there was more going on than just Hal's story.
Also I just liked Emerald Twilight as a story despite thinking the impetus for it was shit and not liking Marz's Kyle GL. Same deal with Jared as Fate (after his first three issues, god those are bad), it was a decent book even if I get why people hated it.

Bruce is their biggest character, come on. The biggest fuck up is that Barry Allen couldn't stay dead. No one was asking for him to come back.

Cassfag lol...

DC editorial really hated Cass since the beginning, her romance with Superboy was nuked like her membership in PAD Young Justice.

>Same reason Hal's still GL
Well i am personally fine with that.

Was this about when she went evil for no fucking reason at the end of her series? Yeah, that felt really weird

It was because she discovered she had “duplicates/clones” of her and she want nuts but it was so bad that DC had to invent some Deathstroke secret plot behind it.

Her series ended with her walking off into the sunset after dumping her Batgirl costume. She became evil during the "One Year Later" time skip due to editorial mandate. The backlash was especially bad because Adam Beechen obviously knew nothing about Cass and the editors approved his shit anyway.

The editors want evil Cass and Beechen was just doing his (shit) job, DC editorial (Didio, Tomasi) hated her, is that simple.

Dude, DC writers fell in love with TAS so much they retconned Dick and Barbara entire history in the comics to be just like the comics minus the cucking by Bruce.

I must confess, I was only ever sort of lukewarm to Cass, but the way DC did her dirty kinda put me off of giving new characters a shot

Don't forget Mr. Freeze, Harley Quinn and Clayface.

The Timmverse is also responsible for Wally West becoming the most popular Flash.

All I know about this character is that her Batsuit is hot as fuck and easily the best of the female Bats.

Fanboyism is a part of it but the bigger part is you have these two mentalities; one says comics should progress and encourage longterm fandom, the other says comics are for an audience that's perpetually being replaced and that brand recognition is the more important thing.
I don't think either of these is really wrong but I know which I prefer as a fan.

But it's less about the person in question's particular attachment to a character, and more "this is the character everyone knows, they've been in cartoons and movies and on lunchboxes, if a kid picks up Green Lantern today he's going to say 'who the fuck is Kyle Rayner?'".
This of course goes completely out the window once you have media adaptations actually using legacy characters like John Stewart, so hypocritically they keep Hal GL even though a kid picking up a comic at that time would go "who the fuck is this honky?"

What are her best comics?

>she hadn't been Batgirl since Killing Joke,
Babs hadn't been Batgirl for years before TKJ. She retired to be a US Senator or something.

Attached: Cass301.jpg (1024x1590, 434K)

It's probably Didio. He seemed to have wanted to bring back Barbara/Barry/Hal as Batgirl/Flash/GL ever since he got to DC. We know it's a fact for Barry since he admitted it in a column.

Batman TV show had a large-scale exposure for the character. People mistakenly think that just because a show only lasted for a few years means it went away forever. Instead it was often syndicated and the reruns kept playing at various points between the 70's to the early 90's on network TV. I know Fox used to air the show alongside BTAS at one point, so it'd have to be 1992, 1993 at the most before it got sidelined for a decade. That's a damn long amount of time for people to be aware of Barbara being Batgirl even if they don't read comics.

Then of course there was BTAS/TNBA. like said That lasted from 1992 to 1999. Again, even more exposure to people that don't read comics. That's almost a decade and this would've also been around the time when kids cartoon programming was still pushed on networks so they'd rerun a lot of it.

And that same poster is right about Batman and Robin. The only reason they made her Alfred's niece is because they felt having her be Pat Hingle's daughter would be unbelievable (Hingle was 73 when he played Gordon for Batman and Robin), but other than that people would still associate Alicia Silverstone with the Barbara Gordon Batgirl.

On top of that:
>People liked Cass and were familiar with her as Batgirl

People liked her, but she was introduced at a time when comic readership was at a major low. Batman was at the 50,000's even while it was running No Man's Land! Had she been introduced in the 80's or even early 90's, she might've had a chance at more staying power. Instead she was introduced during the declining years of comics, then was the victim of inconsistent editorial decisions.

At the end of the day Batgirl Volume 1 issue 1 stars Cass and there's nothing DC can do to take that away from her.

Also Jason was going to be Night wing and Dick was going to die in Infinite Crisis. OYL was a clusterfuck for the Nightwing and Robin. Cass had her ongoing canceled for the Bat woman ongoing by Devin Grayson before the hype of the character and DC realized Devin Grayson writing the character is a bad idea.

Steph was still dead OYL, how DC ressurected her anyway?

>if a kid picks up Green Lantern today he's going to say 'who the fuck is Kyle Rayner?
No, they'll say "IT'S GREEN LANTERN, WOW."

The costume and brand overrides the individual. This has been proven time after time both East and West. Kids don't get mad if the Robin on the lunchbox isn't Dick, or if Spider-Man is Ben, or if it's Professor Hulk instead of Savage Hulk, or if they got a T-shirt with Wally West on it, or if it's Kuuga instead of Super-1.

They don't care. They like the look and brand. Even putting that aside, you're looking at it past-tense instead of an ongoing thing. When Hal was first introduced he was a literally who stealing another character's brand. This notion that characters can't or shouldn't be replaced/retired when some of the ones being propped up replaced retired heroes is fucking ridiculous.

Dixon had Leslie Thompkins fake her death (it also undid the dickery by Willingham where Thompkins let her die to teach Bruce a "lesson").

If they ever explained it, I missed it.

Even back then I was aware tha Batwoman and Damien introductions were responsible for what happened to Cass.

Nuking Bludhaven was probably the most Wtf thing DC did.

For Damien that's not true. When Morrison had started out, he hadn't thought about making him the new Robin since a) Damien had been planned to die in Batman and Son and b) Morrison had intended to end his run with Batman RIP. He only changed his mind sometime during Final Crisis and as a result we got the ending of Batman in the past, everyone thinking Batman was dead and Morrison launching Batman and Robin.

Cass got screwed mostly because she was part of a wave of 80s/90s characters that Didio didn't like which also included the Earth Angel Supergirl and Nightwing. Unlike Dick, no one was willing to argue with him over her and as a result the character got the short end of the stick.

Also she never appeared in any successful Batman media, does anyone remember Dark Tomorrow for GameCube and Xbox?

Cassandra Cain solves for Bruce Wayne. She is a human tortured into being a criminal and had murdered a fat guy by ripping out his throat and smiled after wards. She fight's on autopilot. She and Batman fell into Gotham River from Gotham Bridge and had a make out sesh. She had to change of else her and Bruce would get married and make crime solving robot babies.

What is her status nowadays?

She's in a team book. I think she may get an occasional guest appearance in other Bat books as well but I haven't kept track.

After this page Bat man Comics had to rush to give Batman a bunch more angst and Cassandra Cain a completely different character of else they would love happily ever after by getting married and having babies.

Attached: RCO027_1468904053.jpg (1032x1600, 358K)

Nah Damian introduction wasn't any problem. It was Batwoman. Originally, it was meant to be Barbara Gordon back in the role but DC decided to just create a new character.

The thing is thought, DC was totally underprepared for what they were about to create. They thought Kate would get little fanfare than the storm of news she got.

Regardless, Cassandra was thrown to the wayside because two female Bats having an ongoing was two too many. the irony is not lost with what happened in the New 52.

2004 onwards was a battle that they DC Editors laid on fans of the charater. With little fanfare you tease she's going to appear in Robin OYL but with a cover that so doesn't inspire confidence. Add to that they always had, "plans" that never sought the light of day. And if they did they got turned into Batgirl Vol. 2.

Likewise, right around this time period was when the whole Dylan Horrocks' affair got published of him quitting DC Comics all together for taking a stand on what they were doing to the character of Stephanie Brown aka they were going to brutally kill her off so they'd have their "dead" Robin when Jason returns.

It's quite clear that certain heads at DC had a bias towards Cass and wanted Barbara always as THE Batgirl no matter what the cost to readers and fans.

Attached: 1397365430101.jpg (802x506, 75K)

She goes by "Orphan" now, she's been appearing on and off in Detective Comics, however, now she's in the new Batman and the Outsiders

Attached: RCO021_w_1557363378.jpg (1008x861, 295K)

In a team comic, and ironically the only character not getting a new trade out when BoP comes out in February (besides I think Renee). Harley, Dinah, and Helena are.

It was actually explained in the Robin/Spoiler special or annual. It was right before Dixon left DC Comics after he basically laid so many subplots in Robin and Batman & the Outsiders before heads of DC were like, "Yeah um we need some tie-ins to Batman R.I.P. Oh and we're killing Batman, and Tim isn't going to be Robin anymore. You have to end the comic."

She is a shit character. Barbara is a much more superior character.

Attached: Dan-Didio-Verbanas1.jpg (558x773, 40K)

>Caring about the worst Batgirl

It always kinda amused me that DC made so many attempts at trying to introduce diverse characters, but they had a paraplegic character and an Asian that were both successful, and a successful part of their biggest franchise, and they totally discarded them.

Attached: babs triumph.jpg (800x1248, 370K)

>sploosh

For Stephanie's return, fans were asking, "Where's her case if a butcher like Jason has one still?" at cons. And soon with the Cass heel turn it became two-fold of, "When the hell are you going to fix this fuck up?"

It became so bad Didio had Beechen personally fall on the sword at a panel where he introduced him to the audience as "the man who turned Cass evil" which lead to many boos.

Enter Gotham Underground mini which had covers of a linking image. One cover though was blacked out. It featured Spoiler, but writer Frank Tieri never really went out of his way in the mini to say this was Stephanie.

So Chuck Dixon who came on Robin comic to fix up the mess DC had left his character was given the task of fixing this all. Which he did.

Attached: Robin_Spoiler_Special_1.jpg (400x615, 93K)

>before heads of DC were like, "Yeah um we need some tie-ins to Batman R.I.P. Oh and we're killing Batman, and Tim isn't going to be Robin anymore. You have to end the comic."

Mike Marts was giving the batbooks after Tomasi left. And his entire strategy was essentially do a lot of crossovers between the sidebooks (Detectivei, Robin and Nightwing) and the main book. This would go onto into the Snyder era with Court of Owls and Death of the Family.

Dixon apparently didn't go for it and left since even with RIP, there was also Battle for the Cowl that would build up for Batman and Robin.

This goes back to editorial mostly Dan Didio wanting to reset the character and go back to a more iconic status quo with Barbara. This is the same reason why he hated Nightwing. He just didn't like the characters evolving and changing.

Attached: 4d142b1f61c9e38b7fa1c8be3edf841d.jpg (668x829, 95K)

> given crossovers.
> there was 0 crossovers between the comics in their final issues.

The only crossovers were Battle for the Cowl which lead to the demise of BoP, B&O, Nightwing, and Robin. Which in turn lead to creation of Batman & Robin, Red Robin, Batgirl Vol. 3, and Outsiders. Which only Batgirl and Red Robin crossed over with.

There is also the changes in the status quo following Final Crisis. Tim being Red Robin and Damien and Dick being Batman and Robin. And Dixon had planned out a lot of stuff before hand.

Orphan is still a stupid name, specially since she's now technically part of the family.

He truly did. He was going to have Cluemaster show up right before he left and wanted Steph to get a mini.

There's also the fact that the teasers at the end of Nightwing and BoP teased Babs going back to Batgirl just as Cass's mini was just wrapping up.

Right Battle For The Cowl : Oracle The Cure was probably intended to reverse her paralysis. Guess Dan got cockblocked by someone higher up (Levitz?).

Gail Simone made it publically known she was on the side of Babs not returning until Dan had all the cards in his favor.

Attached: 2m5cm6o.jpg (1015x1599, 286K)

I think Didio said in an interview years ago that he quite liked Cass for the first year or two of her existence, but that she'd floundered since.

I think he was trying to pair down the Bat-cast a bit at the time anyway, as around that time Tim Drake's dad was killed, Spoiler was killed, Leslie thomkins was disgraced and exiled, he wanted to kill-off Nightwing and Cass was turned into a villain

>I think Didio said in an interview years ago that he quite liked Cass for the first year or two of her existence, but that she'd floundered since.

He also said the exact same thing about the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League. It's just one of his rhetorical tactics for being diplomatic rather than saying he wanted the characters gone.

> as around that time Tim Drake's dad was killed, Spoiler was killed, Leslie thomkins was disgraced and exiled, he wanted to kill-off Nightwing and Cass was turned into a villain

Interesting I never made the connection. I always thought the death of Tim's dad and Spoiler were more the decisions of Bob Schreck, the Bat editor responsible for War Games. But it makes some sense since Willingham said that the decision was made even before he got the Robin book. So it could have gone all the way up to Didio.

The whole mess with Nightwing and Cass we can probably trace to Didio though.

>This is the same reason why he hated Nightwing. He just didn't like the characters evolving and changing.
what I recall him saying was that the character was trapped in this sort of between-status as Nightwing - not quite Batman, but not quite Robin either

>Gail Simone
Incidentally, I recall she was asked to pitch ideas for Cass, and she had this idea of making her Born Again(dunno if I'm using the right term there), where Cass would become a devout Christian. Gail wanted to write it completely in earnest, but the other people there though it'd always be half-joking/tongue in cheek whatever

I mean I could see that. The Christian themes of redemption would probably strike a chord with cass.

Nightwing is fully on Didio. Cass? He might have a hand but there's always Tomasi and Berganza.

Attached: wizardmagazine.jpg (1024x477, 126K)

She had two pitches for Cass. One was Angel of the Bat. The other I'm guessing was her to take on the title of White Canary from the character introduced in the "Brightest Day" BoP arc. She was laying the seeds in the first issue and even a solicitation said a character who didn't join the Birds was going to in the issue.

The issue came, and no one really joined but Oracle stopped being the beacon for hero intell save for a select few. Simone then later said that Cass was to join the cast in that issue, but Morrison and Nicezca got dibs on her first.

That sort of cooperation suggests someone higher up like Didio. And there is a wordballoon interview during OYL era where he bragged that a lot of the ideas for OYL were unsolicited ideas he gave to the creative teams. This might be one of them

>White Canary
I guess Yellow Canary never would have flown.

It goes with what Gail was doing with Canary title. Shiva showed up in OYL as the "Jade Canary". And "White Canary" was basically trying to pit the Birds against Shiva for both taking out her kung fu brothers.

Attached: jeez1.jpg (660x1024, 132K)

Attached: jeez2.jpg (664x1024, 161K)

>visual
>medium

Please don't post these ever again, thanks.

He did try. Gosh did Beechen try to be good in this mini.

Attached: nopic.jpg (698x1024, 159K)

Oops.

Attached: nopic2w.jpg (674x1024, 160K)

So what about this one then?

Attached: robin152page11.jpg (655x1024, 118K)

Attached: robin152page12.jpg (661x1024, 148K)

I love big retcon pages. They're always bad out of necessity.

It's interesting, but this kind of mirrors Walt Simonson's experience during OYL where apparently he got the Hawkman job and thought he was doing Hawkgirl and Hawkman only to be told by editors he was writing a Hawkgirl solo. Seems like DC really did a screw job to the talent for OYL.

Oh, the infamous "pussy" gate with Hawkgirl. OYL really did deliver some storytimes of PAIN.