Golden Age

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It's good of you to point her out actually, I doubt marvel would ever bring her back without dumbing her down a lot just like they have with all the other marvel horror heroes. It is a shame she never got a bronze age revival, because she really would have been perfect for the post comics code return to grime and gore. She wouldn't look out of place next to man thing or ghost rider that's for sure.

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Well, they did bring her back in The Twelve, but like you said, they toned her down and completely lost the impact of the original story, which was cruder, but effective.

Although man, imagining a Bronze Age revival would have been perfect. She could easily have found more success than Satana. It would also have been fun to see her go up against Venus.

There has been some talk of Namor and The Human Torch entering the public domain this October (They are both on the Public Domain Heroes wiki), and the Republic serial Cap already is. So too are the first twelve Ka-Zar stories from Marvel Mystery (they are adapted from a novel published by a pre-comics Marvel in 1936).

Marvel would still own rights to the characters and all the things established in their subsequent appearances (the name 'Jim Hammond', Namor's kingdom being Atlantis) but if more neglected Timely heroes and heroines go PD, it might not be impossible to do a JSA-style Marvel book. Then again, they are a Disney subsidiary, so the lawyers are probably looking for ways of keeping them out of the public domain as we speak.

>Namor and The Human Torch entering the public domain
if this was true, Superman would have entered public domain one year ago.
Wikis, especially the specific ones, are full of shit.

The difference is that with the DC Golden Age heroes, they brought nearly all of them back sooner (in the 60's) and kept them going. Yes, it was on Earth-2 at first, but eventually they got folded in and it felt like there was an extended history. You understood that the JSA were important mainly because they were still partly active in the 90's, had a large backstory with other characters being their legacy, and were active in the 00's.

Cap and Namor got brought back in the 60's and used regularly from that point on, but most other Marvel Golden Age characters got acknowledged but they don't feel well-integrated into the universe. Like for instance the Aarkus Vision got set aside because of the focus on Avengers' Vision (who was also said to be made from the body of the original Human Torch, until that got retconned in 1989 or so).

The other problem I think is that Marvel from the 00's onwards does not feel like a fully cohesive universe. It feels like a lot of major writers don't seem that interested in acknowledging stuff in present, much less past. Or they want to do their own spin on things that doesn't match up with what's been seen before. This ends up with a lot of ideas getting tossed around and then forgotten.

>The other problem I think is that Marvel from the 00's onwards does not feel like a fully cohesive universe. It feels like a lot of major writers don't seem that interested in acknowledging stuff in present, much less past. Or they want to do their own spin on things that doesn't match up with what's been seen before.

I think One More Day was patient zero for that. It made it clear that if a writer didn't like an element of a character's history, no matter how many decades it was a part of that history, they could just pretend it never happened. It only got exacerbated with Kelly Sue DeConnick's Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel soft reboot, which basically wiped the character's slate clean even less gracefully than OMD, selectively choosing all the parts of Carol's history Kelly Sue didn't like and throwing them out (coincidentally, all of her failures or shortcomings).

Not saying history was ever immutable in the Marvel universe, but there was a certain length they refused to go to because they didn't want to end up like DC where canon gets rebooted every decade. Starting with OMD they threw that criteria out and it's been a mess ever since.

No, the reason the Human Torch and Sub-Mariner are on the public domain wiki is that they believe Marvel Comics #1 was never actually renewed. We don't know if that's confirmed or if it's misinfo, but even if it were true, everything after Marvel Comics #1 would still be copyrighted and wouldn't be PD.

The PD wiki sometimes does make mistakes. They thought a bunch of Timely characters were PD (and since deleted the entries) But at the same time they were right about some issues of Captain Marvel being in the public domain (but surprisingly the only thing they got wrong on their list of PD Captain Marvel comics was that there was actually a few more issues that were PD). It's best to use it with caution and double check stuff. I'm surprised that in entries they don't mention why something is PD.

>Why can't you let me alone
>I only killed you in cold blood

We truly missed out on lightning in a bottle
Ever since Disney fucked with copyright shit in the 70s the public domain might aswell be nonexistent. If not for those previously mentioned amendments to copyright law, the fantastic four and the majority of the characters created for silver age superman including superman himself would have entered the public domain this year. When the newest items to have entered the public domain in 7 years are from the 1930s you know there is a problem. I just wish these omega corporations weren't so greedy, so much could be done with the timely pantheon otherwise. The Twelve , while I applaud the effort, wasn't particularly done well by any means sadly.
Yeah you pretty much nailed it user. The lack of reinvention or re-introduction has basically sealed these character's fates. Since I previously mentioned how much I fantasize over the idea of a JSA styled marvel universe, I always thought it would be fitting to have 50's commie fighting captain america lead the way for the timely heroes. We nearly got something similar with Agents of Atlas, but even they fail to stick around for too long.

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For all the problems with the 90's (and there were times that writers deliberately ignored things; Byrne was definitely an example), people still tried to put effort into fixing things, and it still felt cohesive even though the cracks were showing.

I want to say that stuff was happening in the 00's prior to OMD, but in small amounts and it built up over time. OMD was more the point where they made it blatant. And then it bled over to the 2010's where they were trying hard to make things matter, but not understanding that they weren't making things matter because of their disregard.

Marvel has been on a downward spiral ever since the 2000's. Unironically, the last set of marvel titles I legitimately enjoy was the adventures line up from the 2000s. Ultimate was painfully edgy and wholly alien to an oldfag like me, and the 616 was already a mess by that point. Adventures maintained cohesion and stayed true to each team/character while the individual titles were focused on introducing new characters (like giant girl for instance). Miraculously enough, their all-ages writing also managed to recapture silver age adventure without going overboard with the cheese. That line up was truly great. Every time I reminisce on those books Im reminded of that one Moore quote, something along the lines of " comics went bad when writers stopped writing for kids". Every day that line of thought becomes more true as these characters get forced into overly mature situations that waste their innate magic and imagination . Just look at the last decade of DC books for a decent enough example.

>When the newest items to have entered the public domain in 7 years are from the 1930s you know there is a problem.

We're not even there yet, 1923 stuff (that was actually copyrighted back then and renewed in some cases) only just became PD this year.

The only thing notable is that Disney (and other studios) didn't bother to get Congress to extend the copyright this time. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but they had every opportunity to do so for the last three years and didn't, causing 2019 stuff to go PD.

Also if the two copyright extensions never happened, Amazing Fantasy #15 would've gone PD this year.

>I want to say that stuff was happening in the 00's prior to OMD, but in small amounts and it built up over time. OMD was more the point where they made it blatant.
I couldnt have said it better myself man, every time I glance at modern comic racks I feel so damned lost. Not only are we repeating history (with the mess of variant covers and the recent blight that is the return of lenticular covers) but the books themselves reek of unprofessional-ism and downright ignorance of the company's legacy and its characters. Every solicitations thread is a nightmare for me.

>We nearly got something similar with Agents of Atlas, but even they fail to stick around for too long.

Arguably because of AoA was more the project of one editor (Mark Panaccia) who is very low on the Marvel editorial totem poem (he gets the jobs nobody wants).

>The only thing notable is that Disney (and other studios) didn't bother to get Congress to extend the copyright this time. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but they had every opportunity to do so for the last three years and didn't, causing 2019 stuff to go PD.

This makes my blood boil, because as the clock winds down, you know someone somewhere is preparing a massive proposal to congress for the express purpose of further extending copyright laws. The only reason books from the 40s' into the 60's havent entered the PD is because of some fucking cartoon mouse. The fact that the majority of the timely and atlas libraries are still copyrighted makes me want to riot.

That's sadly true. AoA actually was very critically well-received and had a surprisingly built-in fanbase (What If #9 had been a cult classic for years and even inspired fan fiction and a place for the characters in the Wold Newton Universe long before AoA), but then they went under-promoted and ignored. Granted, the follow-ups weren't as good as the first mini, but that's never stopped Marvel from shilling other characters, some of whom neither have fans or acclaim.

Agents of Atlas was definitely something I was thinking of as an example of something that got ignored, another is The Twelve (though that's partly because no one would've known how to follow up on it while the book was delayed; plus JMS seemed persona non grata at Marvel by the late 00's), but then arguably The Twelve ignored some things from the original comics.

This also reminded me that Blonde Phantom did get used in Byrne's She-Hulk, and also in the Marvel Adventures line (though I think only Paul Tobin was writing her).

I wish they'd use the Golden Age characters more.

I like Golden Age Vision, and him being an alien cop could give him leeway to appear in a Guardians of the Galaxy book or be a part of Marvel cosmic

she also showed up in one of the sentry's silver age issues. Unrelated but, can we discuss the forgotten golden age timely sidekicks?
Bucky obviously came back ages later and ultimately became the winter soldier, but what the fuck ever happened to Toro or Namor's kid sidekick? Aside from being forgotten obviously

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>As for your idea of Marvel's JSA, it's something I've dreamed of for ages. I think it fails because every consecutive reinvention of these characters, or at the very least the invaders, has failed to capture the same sense of adventure or build onto the base foundation of what was already there.

it fails often because Marvel never gives a reason for these characters to have a place in modern Marvel continuity. They need better integration into the lore.

They could just use the V-Battalion. It'd be a place for surviving WW2 characters and their legacies kinda like the the JSA.

>corporations weren't so greedy
Because so much has been done with PD characters...
Being in PD is literally the end of a character, some smaller publisher would try to make something out of it, as they do every now and then, but eventually they'd be forgotten, because creators wants to do money out of the stories they make, so why not creating a new OC instead of using PD?
If you want to write a Superman story, you can always use an analogue instead of hoping him to fall into PD.

I think pic related is the worst kind of revival for these kinds of character. Instead of trying anything that actually pays respect to the character's origins, everything gets swept aside in favor for some kind of gimmick. I especially hated when this was done in the nineties with the MLJ heroes.

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There are a few flukes, like Sherlock Holmes and Frankenstein’s monster, but fuck, public domain is a great idea in theory that rarely works on paper.

Maybe someone will make an absolutely fantastic take on “black beauty but edgy” one day.

Namor didn't really have a kid sidekick aside from a one-shot solo character called Subby aka Nemo. Dorma played the role of his sidekick in the extra pages of Marvel Comics #1 and appeared after that, but wasn't really a sidekick (or a love interest until the 60s).

Toro's still around, he's been retconned as an inhuman and even has a legacy character.

That is an incredibly backwards idea if you ask me. The public domain is the essence of creative freedom. Imagine if we were forced into using analogues of frankenstein or sherlock holmes. I totally disagree with your view of the public domain. It's not the death of a character, its the out right rebirth of them. Anyone can do whatever they like with a given character. Look at what guys like Bill Black have done with these characters, look at project superpowers, look into the hundreds of airboy comics that have come out since the 40s, or what alan moore did with the nedor comics heroes.
Not just in the terms of comic books either, think of all the cartoons and shit that you wouldnt have been able to watch as a kid if the public domain hadnt existed. God damn man that is dull witted of you.
>Joe Schmoe cannot compete with mega corporations that pump out dozens of comic books, movies, and cartoons of X therefore the public domain is bad.

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Huh, thanks for the history lesson user. I always thought it was peculiar how there wasnt more work with nemo present. Unrelated but I felt I should mention, Dorma is hot.

I didn't mind that one on account that it was set in its own universe. If it were part of Earth-616 I think there would've been cause to get mad about it.

>The public domain is the essence of creative freedom.
Creative freedom is the essence of creative freedom.
Do you think people just stopped writing detective stories before Holmes was PD? No, we got Poirot, Nero Wolfe, Vance etc.
We got Nosferatu because the director couldn't use Dracula so he had to find a way to fool the copyright laws.
Not being able to use Doctor Who spawned a huge deal of sci-fi literature in england, some of them even more famous than the stuff they take inspiration from.
Same with Millar and Watchmen.

All those people were able to create something new, that can stand on its own. They evolved. Imagine if they were given what they wanted from the start. Nothing new would have spawned out of it.

Want to know what is dull witted? Thinking characters make good stories. It is all in the hand of the writer, you could use whatever character you want, but if you suck, your story will suck. And there is no character big enough to fix it.

>Millar

Brain fart, ofc i meant Moore.

>Not being able to use Doctor Who spawned a huge deal of sci-fi literature in england, some of them even more famous than the stuff they take inspiration from.
This is probably the worst possible example, considering how much of that stuff has been pulled into dr who ‘canon’.
Half of that shit wasn’t intended to be it’s own original content, but rather just dr who with a new name.

>Want to know what is dull witted? Thinking characters make good stories. It is all in the hand of the writer, you could use whatever character you want, but if you suck, your story will suck. And there is no character big enough to fix it.
My beef with what you said doesn't come from the idea that these characters make good stories. It comes from my belief, that the public domain is a creative and a social good. Even if someone was to write a shitty story with superman once he somehow entered the public domain, that's good for two reasons.
This character, who's creators have been dead for years, isn't funding some monopoly that exists to capitalize on these intellectual properties until the end of time. The character will instead grow and evolve as they are passed from creator to creator.
Reason two is the fact anyone will be allowed to use them. Good or bad, that should still be allowed regardless. You shouldn't want to let Disney hold things like Mickey Mouse or Spiderman forever just because they have the means and ends to mass produce entertainment and merchandise based off said characters. I hold no slights against the acts of pastiche, but the fact that these characters ( whose creators not only received little to no monetary gain from them whilst alive, who have also been dead for years) should not be locked behind vault doors for these big business pricks to hold onto in the potential outcome that one of them may prove monetarily viable. It stunts our culture's growth, it causes us to stagnate.
Get off your lazy ass and write your own stories instead of paying for a product .

I’m not that guy- but- Do you know that fanfic exists? There’s a niche for that content regardless of copyright.

Fanfics arent keeping the incredible hulk out of the hands of disney big wigs. Despite the niche, that character will ultimately always be owned by Marvel to some extent, even after both Kirby and Stan's demises. To a greater point, those fanfics could be wiped from the earth if even one of those moguls wanted it to. With the public domain, there is no threat of such a thing happening. That's my grand point dammit.

>My beef
...it was a beef?

>write your own stories
But some people just enjoy reading, there is no shame on that.
I have a job, reading comics and books is how i spend some of my free time. I have no interest in becoming a writer.

For everything else, it really just seems that your argoument is a strawman just to shit on Disney, and it is kind of sad other than dumb, because if you really want to write a story about Mickey there is no one stopping you, you just can't make money out of it.
Which should be fine for you since all you want to do is tell your story, no? Or do you want everything served to you on a silver plate, publisher and all?

Again, your mind seems to be set on the "evil corporation need to be taken down" so there is nothing really i can say beside that if you were really a creator, you would fight for the copyright of your stuff.

It’s weird to think about how frowned upon back in the 80’s through 90’s. Back then it was considered a genuinely illegal and controversial behavior. That’s so genuinely odd to think about, how did public opinion on the subject change so quickly?

Disney is the goto example here because were discussing the timely heroes. I wasn't shaming you for reading, I was shaming you for being content with Marvel's ownership over books that should have entered the public domain ages ago.
>Which should be fine for you since all you want to do is tell your story, no? Or do you want everything served to you on a silver plate, publisher and all?
I...what? My entire point is that entertainment and intellectual property shouldnt remain in the hands of people who didnt create that property and seek to capitalize on said property.
>so there is nothing really i can say beside that if you were really a creator, you would fight for the copyright of your stuff.
You're damn right I would, I have a great animosity towards corporations who hoard shit like this. I dont know what else to say here other than the public domain serves a purpose and should always remain active. We have been slighted by these companies,and most are complacent with this. It annoys me.

Honestly, the current agreement that an individual can do whatever they want with an established property as long as they don’t profit, seems very fair. There’s plenty of laws I’ll disagree with, but copyright and trademark law serves a legitimate purpose. It has no effect on creativity, just profit.

fanlore.org/wiki/Fandom_and_Profit
This is a subject that’s been talked to death by the people who actually write fiction about established properties, and it doesn’t seem like they’re any closer to finding a better option.

amazon.com/Portal-Blue-Sky-W-Fels/dp/1983576549
Conversely, there’s people making profit off of trademarked shit in this very moment.

>тhose фucкing revieшs
Wew.

Doesn’t matter dude.