DC Magic or Marvel Magic?

Neither of those things are effected by you being a sperg online about what other people like.
Unironically have sex

DC, only because Marvel's magic is severely underdeveloped these days. It doesn't help Strange is the only one who has an active run and the only prominent person.

What about Magik?

...

DC because I think Zatanna is hot.

Magic sucks in comics.

Marvel magic prior to Cates raping the entire magic lore and making everything having price.

What?

this, though it has often been sidelined for many years

DC magic gets BTFO by Dr Manhattan

Attached: BTFOing magic fags.jpg (1332x1024, 554K)

According to current retcon lore from that recent shitty DC event, all DC's magic came from some Eldritch abomination that they stole from.

Uh what are some interesting things about Marvel Magic?

Marvel seems only concerned with Dr Strange

Sounds shitty and uninspired.

Thanks

>better lore
I don't know how anyone could say this when DC has vertigo which has Alan Moore's swamp thing, Neil Gaiman's The Sandman or Grant Morrison's animal man.
I'm sure Marvel magic is good but it ain't that good.

DC

Attached: AE5A7944-DA68-45A7-BEC1-80DC1E4BB8AC.jpg (761x960, 153K)

Pretty much this DCs magic is a lot more diverse. John Constantine and Zatanna and Dr. Fate are just a few of their more traditional magic users and they’re all pretty different. This isn’t even going into a how crazy Vertigos stuff is.

DC magic feels more like magic
Marvel magic just feels like a name for super powers

I haven’t read much of anything concerning magic in the MU, but I’ve always liked how dangerous and terrifying magic is in the DCU. People who haven’t devoted decades of their life to magical study either go mad, get killed, or get multiple people killed. Or, if you’re John Constantine in Ravenscar, when he was a novice, nearly all three of the above options at once. Magic in the DCU, not even once.

DC magic has some pretty terrifying stakes.
I remember that John killed so many of his friends that they filled up an entire Ghost Bar.

Magic in the DCU is the kind of crazy shit that can have some middling practitioner somehow bullshit up the entire Qliphoth and risk raping all reality.

Marvel magic is just firing pew-pew lasers at each for the most part.

Fuck that, Tynion doesn't get to bastardize better stories just because the reddit casuals say so.

DC hired occults so yeah

To this day I don't know what the fuck Chaos Magic is or what Hypersigils does.

I like DC magic more, but I like cosmic Marvel more than DC's so it kind of balances out.

*ahem*
FUCK MAGIC AND MAGIC USERS

Attached: 1558322630859.jpg (750x1334, 66K)

duh

But Marvel Magic is seriously OP, considering the Living Tribunal was made SPECIFICALLY to guard against magic imbalances and to be stronger than any single being if they were to absorb all the magic in the multiverse.

Fucker had so many ghosts following him at one point, there was a legit serial killer preying on the souls of John Constantine’s dead friends.

You’ve never read any of Dr. Fate have you?

Attached: 444FD2B0-40DF-40F9-8230-BEB95986882C.jpg (727x1099, 229K)

>Dr. Manhattan

>A literal reality warper

No shit

Was that from Jenkins?

Why anyone would practice Magic in DC I would never know. You're one step away from being dragged to hell or cursed.

Both involve a lot of masturbation.

Or both! And magical beings in the DCU, especially the Hellkin, have no compunction against taking your family with you. For no reason!

DC
What's this?

Doctor Strange is the most badass occult series ever. I also loved the '90s occult craze with Midnight Sons, Nightstalkers, Blade, Ghost Rider, Johnny Blaze, Morbius, Darkhold, etc. Unfortunately a lot of this stuff is too dark for Disney to make movies of. But it seems like they're gonna do some shows on Hulu. Helstrom and Robbie Reyes GR. The fact that they called it Helstrom and not Hellstorm like the series makes me think they are backing away from anything too Satanic sounding. Also a lot of Marvel horror stuff seems like it's been toned down to be less offensive. Zarathos is an angel now instead of a demon. And Robbie Reyes is possessed by a ghost instead of a demon. And even the character Angela, who you'd think would be a straightforward Biblical angels vs demons thing, they tried to tie her to Asgard. It feels like Disney is trying to soften the edges on everything.

It's Doomsday clock.

Hell, John as a teen put a dehabilitating curse on his dad, which caused him to hang around as a ghost after he had died.
The conclusion of that issue has one of my favourite pages.
I wish Delano had stayed on for a bit longer, and that Ennis had not ignored all that important stuff about John's family.

*tips fedora

I remember the time where John took out all the worst aspects of himself and send it to hell to suffer.
Bit him in the ass real bad.

When i saw that Darkhold got a complete collection, I was excited and almost bought it.
Only, as it turns out, it's missing a lot of stuff that doesn't make it "complete."
Specifically, it starts as part of a 6 issue crossover, and ends as part of a 17 part crossover.
The "complete collection" doesn't contain all of that.

What comic is this from?

DC's magic side. This shouldn't even be a question. Marvel's magic side is just more dumb capeshit.

Magik being a mutant is much more important than her being able to use magic.

Dunno found it in a magic thread.
I've been meaning to read Fate for a while but I got stuck reading Johns JSA and Ostranders Spectre

Yep. You gotta bean expert to do serious magic, but it sure as hell won’t keep you from making mistakes. And the more powerful you get, the bigger the mistakes get.

Not him, but it's from an issue of Infinity Inc, right after CoIE.
Most of the JSA is now MIA or dead, so Fate is sad.

Thanks

Not really, D.C. Magic feels like a mix of chaos magick and what normies or people who don't really know much about actual occult practices think magic is. Marvel magic with its costs, power sources, hierarchies, effects and methodology feels like a mix of hermeticism and 70s parapsychology with shitton of Lovecraft references or at least it did until it got fucked to death somewhere between the late 90s and early 2010s.
Basically
>DC:postmodern English student romanticism literary device magic
>Marvel when it's done right: Man in a robe with a pentacle magic

>And the more powerful you get, the bigger the mistakes get.
Jim Corrigan suffers from that issue a lot but at least he manages to find peace in the end.
Can't say the same for Con Job and Zatara.

Maybe he should smile

Attached: 355241BB-BE63-4CEE-819A-129C95A544B8.jpg (1987x3056, 956K)

Dr Manhattan wasn't that strong in Watchmen.
He got power boosted for a crossover.

>continuing

Also keep in mind D.C. Really had its magic renaissance done by sad British guys looking wistfully into graveyards and the country side, while marvel had its done by guys on at least 2 hits of lsd reading Lovecraft and the hermetic Kabbalah.

But DC hired actual people who were into occult shit. The people who wrote the first issues of Dr Fate and Zatanna were weirdly into that shit

Alright, I was a little off. It was after CoIE, but like a year later.
Infinity Inc #30, where everyone mourns the death of the JSA (where they were trapped stopping Ragnarok for ever)

Attached: Infinity, Inc. 030-000.jpg (1922x2942, 1.66M)

Oh look, Hector Hall and Lyta in the bottom left, AKA two characters that Gaiman used for Sandman and kind of fucked up

Attached: Infinity, Inc. 030-001.jpg (1914x2942, 1.4M)

Sounds like a load of bullshit to me seeing how Grant Morrison and Alan Moore are some of the most prominent magicians in today's world.
>b-but chaos magic isn't real magick
That's a load of bullshit too, chaos magic was created by occult practitioners.
>b-but muh LSD
You don't think the british invasion did drugs? You don't know shit.

The Spear of Destiny came back in Ostrander's Spectre

Attached: Infinity, Inc. 030-004.jpg (3827x2942, 2.58M)

The groundwork for ALL of DC magic was built up by actual occultists. Moreso than anything at Marvel. You are literally full of shit.

and the page that the crop is from

Attached: Infinity, Inc. 030-006.jpg (1914x2942, 1.17M)

As someone who likes Marvel occult/magic/horror,what do you recommend from the DC side? Aside from old Hellblazer, Sandman and Alan Moore Swamp Thing, I don't really know what runs to look at.

Dr Fate and Etrigan

Various Spectre stories. I'd say avoid the volume that Moench did.
It's really odd and out of place amongst everything else.

J.M. Dematteis Doctor fate, it's where this page came from.

But chaos magic is basically 'try anything and use whatever works'. Like Grant Morrison talks about how you can channel aliens or whatever and even if they aren't real you tap into something and weird shit ends up happening anyway. Chaos magicians use stuff like Lovecraft's old ones and still get results even though the beings are fictitious. So, if chaos magic is legitimate, you could use Marvel occult stuff as a basis for it and it would be just as legitimate. Stan Lee said a lot of occultists used to write in to him to ask where all the references from Doctor Strange came from, they couldn't believe it was just made up and thought it must have a true mystical basis.

DC Magic
Marvel Supernatural/Monsters

Attached: Marvel-Preview-08_01.jpg (900x1179, 128K)

You seem like a knowledgeable person.
I found a set of "Legion of the Night" for $1. Was it supposed to be a big ongoing that never happened or something?

Spear of Destiny was corrupted by Hitler and used by "The National Interest" (Illuminati + republican party) to kill The Spectre so they can remake America.
Ostranders Spectre and Books of Magic.

Attached: MAGA in the 90's.jpg (308x564, 67K)

Or people whose every friend is a wizard, like Neil Gaiman.

Also related to what you posted

Attached: Demon_v3_028-17.jpg (971x1508, 209K)

Neither desu.

I loved The Demon.
What a wild ride. I can still remember the Caligula eating.

>ALL of DC magic was built up by actual occultists

citation please?

I just finished the Alan Grant chunk, and started the Ennis.
I'm not sure if I want to continue. Ennis seems to be a little juvenile with it in comparison to his Hellblazer (like having a demon named smegma).

>Using Watchmen sequels as evidence for anything
Nope.

replying to myself, but I liked the dumb but clever tone Grant had, but he did have so much Lobo in it

Attached: TheDemonIII33p15.jpg (946x1482, 399K)

Not spoonfeeding you. Read the thread.

It was one of Marvel's experimental books during that period, to test the water(and probably give Gerber a paycheck). It would lead to other darker/horror themed books like Hellstorm Prince of Lies.

Attached: Hellstorm_12-22.jpg (972x1519, 222K)

Stan lee says a lot of things.

>equating enjoyment gained from a piece of art made for the sake of entertainment to it's monetary worth to a corporation and it's profit margin

nigga chill out we aint robots [yet]

lol gtfo christian pleb

the devil isn't even real

Attached: High Impact Child Violence -- Demon 14.jpg (924x2897, 1.13M)

I prefer kind cute Klarion than evil creepy Klarion.

I think my favourite issue that I've seen Klarion in was a one shot from Chase.
It's a story from early in her career at the DEO, and an astral projection version of Klarion begs her for help finding the "evil man" who imprisoned him.
The twist is a bunch of random human cultists trapped him, and he goes mental because he thinks that only Etrigan and Jason Blood could get the upper hand on him

Alright, now I know you've never read a DC comic. Doctor Fate is four parts parts Hermeticism, Egyptian mythology, and Buddhist and Christian philosophy.
M8, you and I both know that's a gross oversimplification of Chaos Magick. Especially considering it gas its roots way back in Egyptian philosophy with your boy Hermes Trismegistus who basically invented everything we know as 'occult' in our day and age. Chaos Magick is a radical new idea that seems odd to students of other occult practices simply because it's so new. Grant Morrison clearly used that Imvisibles hypersigil correctly because he's bigger now than he ever was before.

I've only read Seven Soldiers whats Chase?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_(comics)
Chase was a short lived experimental series around 1998 starring an agent for the DEO. Chase (the character) was created by J H Williams III, and he did the art for the series. He would later use her again when he was doing Batwoman in 2011.
Chase herself hated capes because she found them to be reckless thrill-seekers. The book had terrible sales and ended after around ten issues, but became a cult classic because it was not a standard cape book.
She was used by Ostrander when he was writing Martian Manhunter.

>DEO
Isn't that Mr. Bones's Organization?
>Ostrander when he was writing Martian Manhunter.
W-Was is good?

Attached: 1554178633364.png (471x629, 410K)

>Magic is actually science
I fucking hate this trope

Attached: sam.jpg (640x480, 51K)

Yes, Bones recruited her, and completely fucked her reputation and employment in Ostrander's MM. His MM was very good. She (and Bones) were investigating a death related to Private Detective John Jones, and eventually tried to ID all of MM's secret identities.

In that instance, it actually isn't. Manhattan is actually genuinely happy because it isn't.

>eventually tried to ID all of MM's secret identities.
Wow an actual detective story? In DC? Sweet.
I miss when DC still did those.

Chris Claremont's Magik miniseries where the demon Belasco aged Magik's astral body up through puberty was cool. Claremont did a lot of stuff with demons and the occult actually. He even related the X-Men to the kabbalistic tree of life in the Phoenix saga.

Attached: Belasco creates the first bloodstone (Magik 1).jpg (1213x1217, 995K)

Is this a fetish book?

Neither.
Magic is stupid.

It's cool to track what types of books that artists are interested in from what work they've done.
Peter Gross got his first Big Two work inking then later pencilling art for William Messner-Loebs Doctor Fate.
When that book was cancelled, he moved on to do some work on that Hellstorm series. Leonardo Manco came back though, so Gross shifted to inking for The Books of Magic ongoing series and pencilling for the Doctor Strange ongoing series.
He ended up becoming the full time artist for The Books of Magic, and writer for the last twenty-five issues.
He then did most of the art for Mike Carey's Lucifer run.
Mike Carey in return ended up having Leonardo Manco, the man who replaced Gross on Hellstorm, as an artist on his Hellblazer run. After Carey finished, Manco stayed on for all of Denise Mina's run.
It's a small world

It's a Claremont book, yes.

Attached: 22042393.jpg (306x475, 63K)

The last two issues of Chase are about her trying to figure out who Batman is.
Having Batman cameo failed to generate sales though, so it got cancelled.

Aw! Are there any other detective books in DC that deals with actual detective work?

>To this day I don't know what the fuck Chaos Magic is
Chaos magic is just magic where you only care about results and all the different traditions / rituals are interpreted as ultimately arbitrary tools rather than sacred or truthful. So a traditional shaman for example would sincerely believe he's communing with literal spirit entities while performing an ayahuasca ceremony, whereas a chaos magician would just see that as a framework for getting yourself in the right state of mind to accomplish things you wouldn't be able to while sober, with the spirit entities being interchangeable with less traditional subjects like extraterrestrials, famous dead musicians, the platonic form of mathematics, etc.
>or what Hypersigils does
Regular sigils are written down affirmations abstracted into symbols you can't consciously read which are meant to be impressed on your subconscious mind with the idea being that the lower level parts of your mind prior to conscious awareness are more important for determining your actions and accomplishments than your conscious mind is.
A hypersigil is a sigil with the added component of time. Which means it's a story. It's supposed to work like a stereotypical Voodoo doll where you change things in the real world by spreading around your story and having it serve as a real world analogue where things you want to have happen are things you write into the story.

Attached: invisibles.jpg (823x1280, 351K)

Is that Mr.X and Thanks user.

honestly magic is pretty terrible in both settings, both have the problem of being incredibly inconsistent, which I blame on them trying to have their cake and eating it too by never defining magic to just one or a handful of systems, instead they just don't really bother codifying it in any meaningful way

also that most magic users in both companies are irresponsible unlikable jackasses

honestly the last couple of times I've toyed with either DC or Marvel reboot concepts(cause making those is a fun way to kill some time) I've heavily contemplated just leaving magic out entirely, even if it would mean having to heavily retool large chunks of either universe in the process

>also that most magic users in both companies are irresponsible jackasses
Agree
>unlikable
Disagree, I get a lot of enjoyment from them getting their just deserts.

>created by J H Williams III
Hey man show some love for Dan Curtis Johnson.

Please actually read comics

100% agree with this.marvel has a cool magic guy or two but DC spends more time with their arcane stuff and it shows

Just go have your arguments somewhere else

Xmen curse. Just like Beast and Storm and half a dozen others. Potentially really cool characters who will never get any real chance to shine away from the x-books

Attached: 56C69CDB-C18C-46BA-AE08-ADD54F0A563E.jpg (1000x800, 159K)

Shit taste

Only losers like you read comics

Why are you even in this thread if you refuse to educated yourself about anything being talked about? Do you actually take pride in being uneducated about a topic but still think your opinion matters?

DC

Attached: 7BDF2CC2-15E5-4157-8323-FE59E618B14F.jpg (500x822, 138K)

I wanna see this, whats the event?

I mean Dr fate and his users dont seem to have many issues with using magic

JLD I think but I did remember that Gemworld (80s book) has a similar deal.

Attached: CFA01795-4F8F-455A-B2B8-05C87F976C51.jpg (900x1200, 304K)

Yeah but the risk of getting possessed by Nabu is very high. Sometimes the guy is no better than Mordu.

True but that also varies on universe and how the writers feel.

Like even outside of using nabu directly a lot of the fate users still know good amounts of magic, usually the issue is that nabu is a prick.

Honestly i remember hearing about how 'all magic has a price' and used constantine and zatanna as a example but that doesnt seem consistent with most of DC one shot magic users

>still know good amounts of magic, usually the issue is that nabu is a prick.
Yes this is true, Hector Hall and Kent Nelson were pretty experienced in Magic. I think JLD explained that the Lords of Order chooses the best hosts.
>Honestly i remember hearing about how 'all magic has a price' and used constantine and zatanna as a example
Really? I thought they used Sargon the Sorcerer and Zatara but Idk. Was it in Books of Magic?
>doesnt seem consistent with most of DC one shot magic users
Magic always has a price, may not seem like it screws over their users in most of their appearances but that's only because of Plot. In their own series it usually becomes obvious that too much magic is bad.

Like how many times has Etrigan screwed over Jason Blood? How many times did Enchantress go back to being evil? How many times did Constantine get his friends killed? The only magic user that seems to not get fucked over is Billy Batson but even then the Wizard still fucking dies.

Attached: Its MAGIC.jpg (469x737, 103K)

I mean with DC you have to take into account things like narrative due to things like dream, so at this point Im just gonna say magic is inconsistent in terms of price.

Havn't read the new books of magic, i thought timothy would be one of those immune to being retconn'd really

Jason Blood has it coming. The Wizard has it coming. Constantine's just really bad at his job all things considered. Enchantress usually gets fucked by contrivance (I might be thinking of Silver Banshee).

When you deal with magic in DC you probably had it coming. The Spectre was probably right in wiping the slate in the magic world, magic is pretty dangerous.
>new books of magic
What there's a new one?
>magic is inconsistent in terms of price.
I agree but it usually involves an action they've committed in the past biting them back.

L

>What there's a new one?

Yeah there doing a new lucifer (somehow he got turned into a hobo), a new books of magic, and two other things as well that i think are more original.

>When you deal with magic in DC you probably had it coming. The Spectre was probably right in wiping the slate in the magic world, magic is pretty dangerous.

I disagree on the spectre thing, magic is needed to make sure certain things keep running as I imagien the endless fall on the 'magic' side of thing, as well as all the elemental forces of green and red and such, though I do agree on removing for 5th dimensional imps (emperor joker)

Not that user but are imps magical or are they some kind of cosmic horror dimensional power thing?

They keep flipflopping on it, like If memory serves the spectre did hurt him with the war on magic and mx says the 5th dimension is imagination (which seems inconsistent in of itself)

I remember Mxy said that every version of him is technically the same Mxy and he did broke meta in more than one appearance.
I think imps being “imagination” has some truth to it but Idk how to put it.

Honestly the fact in the recent justice league he says he is the same mxy kinda annoys me, like we have alt reality mx's that hate mainline mx or the evil mx in 'whatever happened to the man of tomorrow' after all so honestly i think the multiversal singularity concept only really works for say the endless and maybe the new gods.

marvel doesnt have a bisexual scouse sociopathic conman who dabbles in black magic and considers himself a legend
so guess

John considers himself a legend? I thought the guy hated himself.

Well Imps are pretty crazy. I don’t think they were made to make sense at all.

oh he does hate himself but he knows hes a massive cunt and he knows everyone kows hes a massive cunt
"legend" is used loosely in england
i suppose legend may not have been appropriate maybe infamous is a better term

I mean the issue is that mx and the other imps are mostly consistent, and do have sense honestly the problem with 'INCONCEIVABLE CHAOTIC' doesnt work as a character, even joker and mx are mostly understandable.

I don’t see the issue here.
John is a dick but its not like he could change it the bad luck that surrounds him. His infamy is works too because it means less demons are willing to screw with him (Scared those demons and monsters to save Zatanna and Timothy) Plus he isn’t the only magician in DC tons of people magic users live there. Not really fair to judge the whole magical communtiy on its least flattering member.
I agree it? I don’t know what you are trying to say user.

DC has Hellblazer, Swamp Thing and all the Vertigo adjacent magic stuff. Marvel has better cosmic and street level but DC dominates in magic just way more interesting

Doctor Strange is probably my favourite big 2 character but DC magic is just overall better with Vertigo thrown in the mix. Too much of marvel magic is centered around one guy in marvel