Science or magic?

Depends on how they are written. You always know that science has some kind of rules attached to it, even if it is fanciful super-science.

Magic, especially comic book magic, is often painfully stupid and just does whatever the author wants it it do with no rules consistency whatsoever. Magic can be written well, but a hack writer more easily butchers magic as a concept than they do science.

I can't think of a single marvel of DC title that does magic as anything other than a plot device, come to think of it.

Magitech

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Magic is the best when there are enough rules to understand the limitations but enough freedom to do cool shit.

This

I’m not sure what are the limitations of DC’s magic systems desu. Maybe some dcfag can enlighten me?

I know marvel magic comes directly from higher entities but I’m not sure where DC’s even comes from

Magic since you wouldn't need to explain it. Science requires you to have an idea of what you're writing about to be credible.

Both are good as long as they're separate. "Magic is totally just science we don't understand" is retard tier.

I think they shine the best when both things collide. The thing is, usually they go too over the top, they go way too cosmic, but it is cool when science characters face magic characters.
The fun stops when they bring world ending artifacts and cosmic entities, but there isn't anything more cool than cyborg fighting mages

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>I’m not sure what are the limitations of DC’s magic systems desu.
Well an elseworld Zatanna once enslaved a five dimensional imp so...I would imagine there are none since 5 dimensional imps are comically overpowered toonforce wielding reality warpers.

>but I’m not sure where DC’s even comes from
IIIRC a bunch of demigods or something.

Science fucks you up irl too.
Basically every electronic device is emitting harmful radiation, and is made of components that are toxic even to touch, such as mercury and lead.

>Basically every electronic device is emitting harmful radiation
Please learn what non-ionizing radiation is.

People on this board are fucking brainlets. The profound levels of unaware ignorance in most of these posts is something you should be ashamed of.

I know what non-ionizing radiation is you brainlet. Why don't you go stand in front of a microwave emitter if it's so safe. No one on this board has the brain cells to refute anything I say.

No, your opinion is retard tier.

Science is a methodology for discovery. As long as magic isn't pure random nonsense, science would be useful for understanding it.

Since is rad

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>Since
Uh I think you mean science

Not if the magic is based on faith. Like, you knowing things about how the universe works prevents you from properly using it.
Like, if you know how it rains, you can't ask for the gods to make rain, if you know how fire is produced you can't asks the fire spirits to burn something.
It all depends on the system, magic may be is not random, but it requires faith, with classes with scientific knwledge

I can respect science more as a concept, as its philosophy and the circumstances of its grow are more inspiring, imo.

That said, super science in comics tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth, and can come off as way more bullshit than magic, since at least with the latter you can preach the old "ain't gotta explain shit."

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Faith based magic is kino.

"Prays to the Lord like a good Catholic boy"?

Daredevil does. But he is blind.

And now he has Heimdall's powers

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There are forms of magic that can be understood by science but not able to be capitalized on by science. At least, not in any way that's practical.

A good example are the duel magic systems in The Name of the Wind.

Sympathy is magical science. It obeys at least some manner of conservation of energy, and its based on knowledge. You form sympathetic links between things, such that acting on one affects the other in some way. The better you understand the nature of what materials you are working with, and the forces you are transferring between them, the stronger your links and the more you can do with them.

Naming, however, can be described in scientific terms but can never be done as a science, because naming is almost impossible to reproduce on command. The whole gist of Naming is that if you grasp the 'name' of a thing you can control it absolutely, but the Name of a thing is such a vast quantity of information that you could never hold it all in your head at a time. Literally to the point that if you had an infintie about of paper and you wrote down the whole Name of, say, Fire? By the time you were done, your paper wouldn't just be a perfectly accurate description of ever single law of thermodynaics, you could burn a man to death using just the paper because it would BE fire it was so accurate.
Because you can't hold all of that in your head at once and keep it straight, the only way to use Naming is to do it unconsciously. You have to have affinity and talent for it, but its the sort of thing you can only do on instinct and without thinking about it. If you stop and think about it, it will immediately fail you.

So naming is very powerful when it works, but really difficult to make it work on command (it usually triggers reflexively in response to some kind of stress) and thus is basically impossible to turn into a science.

I was thinking, Odin traded his eye for supreme knowledge, right? Well Matt is blind as a bat, he doesn't need his eyes, couldn't he trade both of them for double supreme knowledge? Or would Matt have to give up an ear instead, because he uses his ears to "see"?

Science if western Magic if anime

>Then Dr.Strange appeared, and magic became...well, magic.
Magic is still kind of science in the MCU.

The mages of the MCU just channel interdimensional energy into themselves, and then projecting that energy for "spells". You can argue that being able to channel and project and shape energy mentally is magic, but thats really no different than someone mentally controlling an infinity gem for specific effects or a superpowered human mentally controlling their power for specific effects.

Science can easily replicate magic once they discover those dimensions and their energies. Then just have to build devices to harness the energy, shape and project it. And voila! Mages ain't shit no more.

MCU mages aren't really magic. They're more of a specific type of superhuman.

I think he would need to give something of great importance to him. So i am guessing his ears would have to go.

I don't know, dude, when it comes to magic anime is just all about magic circles and giant beams, they are pretty limited in their use of magic
At least when anime is about science they do cool mecha

Yeah then you have stuff like Jojo that is super creative. Anime can be either super creative or super generic. I would stick to anime because there is a 25% chance i get a unique magic

Is that how marvel magic works? I thought it was borrowing energy from entities (like Dormammu), which is why Mordo goes apeshit when he found out the ancient one was doing it. You don’t even need science to harness that energy, you just need to ask nicely and hope your body can take the channeling

I was actually thinking of writing a super hero story set in a "magic VS technology" world, where humans built technologically advanced cities on the remains/on top of a supernatural based foundation, kinda like a mystical underground over a high-tech overground. Whether or not the magic users and creatures are a mystery to the public on top or not, I haven't decided yet.

Make them tge bogeyman of the world. Like people know what they are but are split on believing whether they exist or not

BASED AND DOOMPILLED

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>THIRD
>RATE
>SORCERER

>Like, you knowing things about how the universe works prevents you from properly using it.

There's a show called symphogear that deals a lot with ancient magical relics, and a plot point is that the protagonist is as strong as she is mostly because she is a fucking moron.

The abilities of the relics are incredible powerful, flexible, and make very little sense. They realize around the second season or so that the relics are capable of doing much, much more than they have been used for thus far, but the conform to the users expectations to shape their effects.

What this means is that if you are facing a mountain-sized 99 headed dragon monster, not being sure that you can win that fight with just a magic sword is a very reasonable doubt to have. But the fact that you don't expect to win means that the sword isn't using its full power. Its an inherently illogical force that is being constrained by your logical expectations.

Hibiki can barely count, but she never realizes that anything she is doing should be impossible. So none of her expectations are holding her relic back from operating at its full potential, and it turns out that a relic at its full potential is totally insane. Pic related it what happens when she decides that she needs the biggest punch she can think of, for example.

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You got it backwards, anime have much more intricate a varied types of magic than comics, most of the time western comics go for the "it's magic, I aint gotta explain shit" magic, while manga is more creative and build magic systems you can actully understand and imagine the possibilities and limitations. But anime science is just boring ass mechas.

The way I'm understanding it, such entities are the intermediary, the magic equivalent for science's "devices" that give direction to the energy.

So it's kind of like the way D&D does it. You've got warlocks directly making deals with entities to give them the juice, sorcerers with innate superpowers that grant them access to the juice, and wizards who study and learn formulas made by predecessors as shortcuts to access it and then build up from it to make more spells.

Who even knows anymore. Marvel has never been consistent about how magic works, even when they do try to set down rules. Comic book magic is a shitshow in terms of consistent depiction.

Like, since Aaron's run, Marvel has been pushing this 'magic has costs. the bigger shit you do, the more fucked up the costs' thing. But it only seems to apply to Strange. Everyone else just seems to do magic willy nilly with no problems.

But yes, there are spells that require drawing on mystical entities. Classicaly, the Sorcerer Supreme gets a lot of power and abilities from the Vishanti, who are his/her patrons. Spells like the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak are drawing from Cyttorak.

A lot of the magic shit we see, though, is just mages running off their own internal power.

My understanding is that such entities are more or less the source

I want "science figures out how magic works and in a short span of time accumulates a far better understanding of it than the wizards did over millennia"

Both. Especially with a visionary like pic related

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That sounds awesome

He's still a better mage than Richards.

Fuck Doom this Chad should be the face of Science and Technology

>even when they do try to set down rules. Comic book magic is a shitshow in terms of consistent depiction.

That's why a shared universe is a mistake, you can't stablish rules or a consistent tone worth a shit. Meanwhile. Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Huner and Magi have well stablished magic system that other writers won't fuck up

How do you feel about settings where magic gets the same level of though and engineering put into at as science does? Like collapsible wands that clip onto your belt with swappable heads for specialized tasks? Or building a broadcast station on top of leylines to improve your magic power reception?

But a worse scientist compared to Richards

Yeah, it’s weird that Strange seems to be the only one getting the brunt of the cost, but I suppose it is an effect of him having more exposure in general. Other more popular magic users like scarlet witch also don’t rely on entities like he does, thereby more or less negating the debt

Also, the idea of “larger magic, larger cost” didn’t even come from Aaron. He just made it fucking boring where it’s all physical instead of more spiritual and hard to pin down. Waid brought it back to how it should be imo, where the costs are tied mostly to the entities and not your own body

Maybe I'm going too warhammer Chaos in here, but at those levels I take the entities more as the "brain", the "will", or the "direction" of the energy rather than all of it as a whole. By this I mean you can still access that kind of power without directly communicating with the force, and that some entities can share similar domains without just being one and the same.

I'm thinking of Oblivion, one of the big 4 of the Marvel cosmos, who seems tied to the dark force, but that doesn't mean that all characters who use Darkforce are agents of Oblivion. The ones who are get the big piece of the cake sure, but that's not exclusive.

Not that well versed in cosmic marvel though, so take it with a grain of sand, I'd appreciate corrections.

What about a guy casting spells by using a remote controlled wand

One of the strengths of a shared universe is a variations of tone. Without writers bringing in their own style and tone to the characters we would not have stuff like Moore’s Swamp Thing or Miller’s Daredevil

But yes inconsistent rules are a drawback

Quick, Yea Forums!

Come up with a magic/power system that would be both well stablished in terms of what you can do an how to do it, but also leave room to play arround!

>Like, since Aaron's run, Marvel has been pushing this 'magic has costs. the bigger shit you do, the more fucked up the costs' thing. But it only seems to apply to Strange. Everyone else just seems to do magic willy nilly with no problems.
I'm glad Waid got rid of this, though. Or at the very least, brought things back to the way they were before Aaron's gross misunderstanding on how magic costs work.

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I actually like a large part of Marvel’s (or Astro City’s) magic system. You directly ask god-like beings for power, they can choose to refuse, and you can only use the power granted to you in specific ways, and in doing so you basically enter a contract with the entity where you have to pay them back, somehow. Channeling that magic also causes physical costs like fatigue

There’s also innate magic which is far less powerful and basically boils down to shields and beams

both

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Science. More often than not magic is just straight up ambiguous shit that the writer pulled out of their ass. Also fuck your "hurr durr high science is just like magik xddd" shit. Also fuck you Doom, choose either science or magic, you cant do both you fucking faggot

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A spell system based on sacrifice, tough sacrifices to make. Want to cast fireball? you need to burn your hand. Revive one person? Kill 30. Teleportation? You need to stay in one room for 10 days. Love spell? Cut ties with someone you already love.

Magic is better because you can always appeal to a higher power for more strength. You can't do that with Science. If you're losing a fight you can slip into a pocket dimension and bargain with an elder Lord of one of the infinite Heavens/Hells that exist to beat your opponent. If you're losing as a Science guy what are you gonna do, pray to quarks and leptons?

Science

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>Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Magic comes from farting. Your inclination towards black or white magic shows in how smelly the farts are (true black mages have noxious, vile farts), how loud determines the potency of the spell, and how long the fart lasts determines long of the spell will last

Doesn't matter, Doom goes both ways, Richards doesn't.

Summoning powers based of drawing skills and programing ability, the body of the creature will only be as strong as the artist can draw, it's actions are determined by the programmer and is prone to errors if he sucks. There would not be many people in the world who are good at both, so most of the times the summoning need to be done in pairs, they need to be in good terms about what to summon too, so there won't be shit like the programmer making intricate flight paterns but the artist drawing small wings.

The soul is made up of 5 parts
>The heart called Ib which governs emotion, thoughts and will (Mind magic)
>The shadow which ties a person to the mortal world (Shadow magic)
>The personality which governs the individuality of a person(Shapeshifting and illusion)
> Vital fire of life (life and healing magic)
>The name which governs the form of a person(Empowerment magic)
A mage has to sacrifice one part in order to strengthen another thus allowing them to do magic.
What you magic is is dependant on what you sacrifice and what you empower

A good magic system would be designed in such a way that scientific methodology wouldn't work on it

And you must never ever EVER fart on a man's balls.

Magic works in dimensions with different rules
SCIENCE might not
SCIENCE understands their universe very fucking well. Magic is a traveller (with some spots that don't like it at all)

I'm stealing this for my webcomic

Depends on the story

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That sentence is so fucking absurd.

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He looks like he is made of bricks

That sounds like it has the same flavor as "ancient invincible demon returns in modern times and quickly realizes he was only invincible to arrows and swords and gets blown the fuck up by RPGs, missles, grenades etc.". Those stories are always fun.

Magic comes from language. A mage has to create his own language inorder to perform spells.

cool opinion

Some of us don't like magic systems that are so impossible to understand that the creator can make up any asspull they want at the drop of a hat

A single emitter? Not in a box? Standard power?

No problem.

Idiot.

I want a wizard with a supersoaker full of potions

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That shit sounds broken.

Magic is the use of extrauniversal forces to circumvent the laws of physics in order to create an effect.

This whole argument reminds me of the MKX ending for the Predator where the Predator learns how magic works

The best magic systems are made and crafted by western media.
What Japan adds in is just derivative.

Science would still be a useful methodology for understanding it and how it works, like any soft science. It just means that the scientist can't also be the spellcaster... Which is how a scientist would study it anyways, you ignorant fucking retard.

I feel like Waid went too far, though. Like, after the shit that went down, why would anyone give Strange power now? They know he'll just reneg on the deal. Waid took things to a retarded level. It kind of broke the whole concept for me, the same way Venditti broke the emotional spectrum concept by having every single Lantern actively killing the universe just by drawing on their light.

Says who? Sometimes it's just an energy force that comes from within people, or is everywhere and is manipulated by people

A force cannot be energy retard.

If science can't work on it, it is definitionally not a system. Science is a methodology for understanding replicable phenomenon. Unless the magic, and the caster, are different every time with no consistent causal relationships- i.e. pure randomness- science would help to understand it.

Your problem with science is not science's problem.

Asspulls can be done even in a well explained system though, that's not a reason why you should hate esoteric magic systems. That's just shitty writing, not a flaw of the system itself.

You've confused science with technology.
Science is a methodology, not its results.

If you traveled to another universe where all the rules of how matter interacts are different but still follow rules, science continues to work.

What if by studying how it works (effectively writing down or saying out loud what posted) causes the magic not to work for anyone that reads/hears it?

>why would anyone give him power
Most of the entities get their power via popularity aka cults. Having a sorcerer supreme going around chanting your name makes for decent publicity

Waid isn’t the one who came up with the idea anyways. It was pretty clearly laid out in the old sorcerer supreme series (complete with him basically saying “fuck you” to every entity), Aaron just ignored that

Magic is just unexplained science, science backs everything like how in a video game the characters can use magic because the science of the reality allows such.

Hm that can be an interesting conflict. Him trying to regain the trust with the entities that refuse to cooperate

>The best magic systems are made and crafted by western media

I would like some exemples

>Unless the magic, and the caster, are different every time with no consistent causal relationships
What if it is?

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Some marvel magic comes directly from higher entities. Some is just magic. The more powerful effects are named for entities, but it doesn't seem that their consent is necessary, so it may be a naming convention, or invocation of higher power, or some mixture either in action or amongst different spells.
We know strange and Doom have both received major powerups from magical entities, but that such a boon is retractable.

Sounds fun

Does the west even have a system? You always get some ambiguous sacrifices or muh emotion shit at best

Then calling it magic seems silly- it would just be chaos. You couldn't even have a spellcaster.

>Like, after the shit that went down, why would anyone give Strange power now? They know he'll just reneg on the deal.

Strange is like Chris-Chan: he thinks that his increasing tower of debt to various parties will just go away on its own if he keeps pretending it doesn't exist.

No. Magic is a phenomenon.
Science is a method to study phenomenon.

You can study phenomenon.

So the scientist can't tell the study subject what he's doing.

Still works.

You aren't going to be able to come up with a way, because if learning is in any way valid, then science will be as well.

Not that he has much choice, his innate power just isn’t enough

The closest things I can think that could count as a magic system in western media is Avatar, The dragon prince,Locke and Key and Jackie Chan Adventure, but things with very well defined rules like FMA are non existent as far as I know

I like the system in the game series Ar Tonelico/Ar Nosurge. It's basically Song Magic, except you can actually learn the differents languages and magic systems to craft spells. They're not gibberish, they have a whole wiki for that.

It's interesting to think about, because you could say that "well, a spellcaster is someone who understands the randomness and harnesses it to cast spells" but if there's something to understand, then the scientific method would work on it, right?

Yes. But the technique to use a microscope is not the same as what is on the slide.

Science is a mindset. A set of tools for studying phenomenon. It exists purely on the conceptual level.

People should just say Technology vs Magic to avoid these inane semantic arguments.

Correct. if there's a pattern of any kind- who can do it, what is done, when, how powerful... Science can be used to study the phenomenon.

Speaking of Magic and Technology how come so many shows now days show more magic than technology.

Exactly If Strange comes to barter, it's a sign he's desperate and can't afford to waste time haggling. Every deal he makes places him deeper in debt. They've got him bent over a barrel, pants down, anus devoid of even a single drop of lube. Bite down hard, Stevie-boy, it's going in dry.

They should.

But what they want is a sort of anti-intellectual inversion, where semi-creative(I have a great idea for a videogame!) daydreaming nobodies develop incredible powers and most importantly, eclipse the people that are smarter than they are in real life in importance, power and prestige.

So it's important to them that it be science, because it makes the people they want to see humbled wrong about the world.

That they aren't even capable of understanding how wrongheaded the concept is... Well, that's just inevitable, isn't it?

There's an awful lot of projecting happening in this post.

One great example is Discworld's melding of science and magic.
Or if you really want the most basic/simple but near-universally flexible , I suggest Magic: the Gathering's.
Other than that there's always 3.5e.

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Based.

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Science!

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We are talking comic / cartoon here. It is retarded to pull game system and rule in

Magic(k)!

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Novels/novelizations don't count?

I'm familiar with Symphogear, Kirika best girl btw.

Kaleid Illya works in a similar fashion, Miyu trends to rationalize everything which leads to underperforming in tasks Illya's just do just fine because she doesn't think on the process, which hinders the magic, and only imagines the result.

Well, at least you used a quasi-scientific term to say "no, u".

I'll chalk that up as a win.

Asgardians have devices that work off magic as the power source.

In DC the highest end, top of the heap celestial cosmic entities that run the multiverse are magic based. Magic comes from tapping into the same source of power that all things in existence derive from.

In Marvel the highest beings at the top of the power that be hill are called Cosmic based. Everything cosmic is some nebulous term for energy manipulating, reality warping super being. And magic is more of a side thing that other various higher creatures have discovered lets them do some of the same amount of playing with reality.

Marvel wizards are more like DnD clerics. They channel the power of a lot of bigger entities like the Vishanti or Hell Lords.

Science is boring.
This is why DC sucks compared to Marvel. Robots and cyborgs are boring. Giant robots are boring. Tech is boring. Pseudotech is boring.

Your wife thinks your boring

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>Magic

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Based

So, when the Spectre went to take out all magic, he in reality was just cleaning up errors.

Huh.

>Being this much of a dumbass

Magic is superior and also actually exists in real life

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I'm a Luciferian Magus and have been practicing Eulis for years now

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DC has more unexplainable magic than Marvel.

Magic is the sacred science of the soul

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None of you know what's out there

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>science or magic?

MUSCLE

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Why not both?

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Clarke's Third Law.

Kung fu

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>slams your wife for years during Secret Wars

How my dick taste, Reed?

Power >>> magic = science
fuck off nerds

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Still blind and he couldn't take it.

s c i e n c e

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Whats the difference?

Doom created a time machine and a machine that can resurrect the dead.

youtube.com/watch?v=Uw9bny88OuY

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There is nothing science can do that magic can't
Science is always trying just trying to be shitty magic

The only thing science is good for is horror

Psionics!

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Studying magic isn't science, it's just well written magic. Science is creating things within the laws of physics as they are in universe, magic is tapping into powers that have separate rules from physics. Mixing them is just done by people too retarded to either understand science or write coherent magic rules.

That's a tough one. See, I have a bit of the 'tism (not diagnosed or whatever, just memeing), and I can enjoy only things I can assume will or do exist in reality. So generally, I enjoy Sci-Fi, because I have the mindset of "if I study enough I'll be able to create an Iron Man suit", regardless of the fact that most Sci-Fi is completely unrealistic. By the same line of thinking, I can enjoy dramas, thrillers, everything rooted in reality. Anyway, that's one side of my opinion, and why I lean towards Science/Sci-Fi.

On the other hand, because of this mindset, sometimes I think "well, since I'm basically Iron Man already, reading his books makes no sense, since his reality is the same as this Fiction", which makes me see Sci-Fi, on a low level anyhow, a bit "boring". Kinda like recycling the things I can, theoretically, live through. I know it makes no sense, but the gist of it is that I self insert as the Sci-Fi character on such a level where I start to wonder what he, living in such a Sci-Fi world, would enjoy in Fiction. Does it make any sense now?

Due to that second point, I'm drawn to "magic" sometimes as the "alternative". One other reason for that is because I sometimes find Sci-Fi too "sterile". More often than not it's meant to be taken at face value, and it misses a whole lot of themes I enjoy. However, I cannot get into Fantasy because Elves and Dwarves do not exist, and this activates my autism. I cannot get into Horror, because I don't like mere depression or scariness. So even when I try to get into magic, I'm mostly in it for the "wonder" of it. The faith-based systems, the tales of honor and whatnot.

Basically my problem is that I cannot choose. Most of the time, Sci-Fi deals with few themes and is sterilized, while Magic is boring because it has little to no themes. I'm basically in the "dreamer sci-fi" and "advanced science = magic" type, if I had to summarize, but I lean towards "science", were I forced to chose.

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You're confusing science and technology

This is how it should work, you either magic or science, they need to be antagonist to each other. Using both is dumb

niehs.nih.gov/health/materials/cell_phone_radiofrequency_radiation_studies_508.pdf

In the context of fiction they're the same.

The only way a microwave emitter would be able to make microwaves dangerous is by directing and concentrating the photons. The microwaves and radio waves used by electronics are not directed in this way. They are giving off less energy than a candle or lightbulb.

>DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM IS THE BESTEST AT EVERYTHING EVER
Don't you Doomfags tire of that?

That's a very short list of references. I've never seen a legitimate paper with a list that short, even my bullshit thesis has several times that.

>Super science == a form of magic
ftfy

Both.

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I never understood how someone with magic can struggle in a fight, you literally warp reality to suit your needs and yet somehow you lose... I just dont get it...

Good writers usually give magic some kind of limitations, costs and/or drawbacks to prevent it from just instantly solving any problem ever. Bad writers just make it "if you use it a lot you get tired lol".

They are broken in every setting they are in