THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS

>some kind of in-between where you surprise people without shitting on the thing they like.
This.

People want the occasional neat twist or unexpected direction. They want to be *surprised*!

People DON'T want cheap shock tactics like the current X-Men run or Avengers Arena where characters are dropping like early seasons of 'Game of Thrones.'

Are we talking about Star Wars?

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>the context for these tweets is the reaction to GoT's last episode
Was it? I actually thought it was Tom King's "this will change Batman for decades" tweet that came out around the same time?

Wait, what happened?

>meanwhile hulk is giving things that shock the audience AND makes them happy at the same time

Only a hack has to resort to making people unhappy in order to shock them.

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There's always going to be people who get mad. They'll say you fucked their character or whatever. But if you're trying to make an impact, you want the majority to be intrigued, confused or satisfied, not angry. Angry from the majority means your story is being obtuse for the sake of reactions, and that only lasts for so long.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being fast and loose with character death. Some stories work that way, and hoarding characters for potential future use is a bad habit. The problem is most comic book writers use death as a crutch.

It could be a better book, but I do love that there's some degree of sci-fi horror in Immortal. More books should be willing to leave the comfort zone and touch on other genres and tones.

Spot on.

You are able to do both without shitting on the thing they like.

>wahhhh writing is hard, why don't people like my stuff, it's impossible!!!

Back in the day comics used to believe in the idea that any comic reader only read comics roughly for three years before stopping completely, and then a new batch of readers would come along and replace them.

Why the fuck do you think Saga ends every issue with a cliffhanger?

>Or 90s X-Men?
People who read X-Men in the 80s?

>Or Spider-Man in the 60s?
Gwen Stacy getting snapped what pretty much the equivalent of Ned Stark getting chopped, user.

>How about Saga?
Do you even read comics?

Because BKV is a hack?

>People who read X-Men in the 80s?
Not really until around 95 Or so, after its huge boom started dying down anyway.
>Gwen Stacy getting snapped what pretty much the equivalent of Ned Stark getting chopped, user.
And it happened halfway through the 70s and had nothing to do with ASM's amazing success in the prior decades.

Maybe YOU need to read comics.

>decades
Where the fuck did that s come from?
Decade. Singular.

The Night Gwen Stacy Died happened in 1976, not the 60s

What did Cates say?

1/2
It's part of the same discussion, but you can see how it applies to the stuff he has written (as well as Tom King's really)

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2/2
"I've never pandered to anyone but myself"
And well, he still has dickriders after that, go figure.

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>The Night Gwen Stacy Died happened in 1976
Spider-Man #121–122 (June–July 1973)
But the point still stands.

I'm not at all surprised Cates liked that GoT episode, it's exactly like something he'd write.

I don't even watch GoT and I could tell that big dumb fight was bad. I fear for any book this man pens.

Of course, and on top of that, this is how he's shielded from criticism from now on.
Not that any of his followers will tell him otherwise, like I said, he really does have a lot of dickriders, and when you're surrounded with people like that, there's no way you can tell when you're messing up.
He's doing a hack job in GOTG, but going by the people who praise it, I bet he thinks he's killing it.

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>I could tell that big dumb fight was bad
I think people were more angry that Dany went full Mad Dragon Queen and literally rained fire down on an entire city that was trying to surrender.

She'd been plenty brutal before ( like crucifying the slave traders after the attempted coup ); but it's a brutal setting and those people arguably were asking for what they got. This was literally woman and children in the streets being burned alive a la Dresden.

There's nothing wrong with that tweet. If you write anything worth a damn, some people will be mad at it. It's just a bad idea to covet anger over apathy as the consensus when you aren't writing a book that's meant to make the audience angry, especially if that anger comes from "You broke my toy" rather than the content.

>Or Spider-Man in the 60s?
Anyone who didn't like Peter saying, in 1964 that had "nothing to protest about."

Yeah, I heard about all that, but I don't have enough context to say anything about it. I have enough to say that fight scene is big, pointless, dumb and ill-fitting.

From what I've gleamed through the media:
1. Show, don't tell: Never have any exposition ever.
2. Mystery boxes everywhere: I don't gotta' explain shit. And anything that doesn't make sense? It's because of another mystery box.
3. Subvert Expectations: Chekhov's Gun can kiss my ass. Establish it in act 1, then instead use a knife that appears from a mystery box in Act 3.
4. Any and All Tropes are Bad: If it's in TVTropes, it's to be avoided. Again, subvert expectations.
5. Controversy!: When subverting expectations, make sure to anger the audience, as well. Better to have them talking about how angry they are then to have them sitting there silent and satisfied.

Writers like that don't know how to write an engaging story without shock value. They see actually good stories doing shocking things, and think those stories are good because of the shock.

Again, it's all about context: this is from the guy who constantly writes cliffhangers and does "shock deaths" only to undo them the next issue (like killing Star-Lord in #4 then undoing it on #5), or writing an entire arc about your favorite villain while making everyone act like retards around it, it's just lazy because you know there's nothing building up beyond trying to shock everyone with SURPRISE APPEARANCES and random deaths.
So as long as they keep the audience "not-bored", any technique counts... Except good writing.

Rian Johnson, what are you doing on Yea Forums?

He's right. No piece of fiction has ever been well-received. Everyone hates everything and it's literally impossible to please them.

Avengers Endgame, ATLA, pre-season-6ish Game of Thrones, none of these things exist. This is a universe where if an entertainer fails to entertain it is the audience's fault. Welcome to fucking clown world!

They just have to be clever in mundane situations. Nobody want events everyday. That just makes events the norm and therefore boring. You have to be a good writer to do it though.

>(like killing Star-Lord in #4 then undoing it on #5)

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what an idiot

There's nothing wrong with playing fast and loose with killing your own characters in your own story. In the world of DC and Marvel macro-continuity, it's a serious dick move to just randomly go around killing characters without a respectful build-up.

Here's the deal, as someone who read the books (but dropped the show on season 7): Everyone knew this was going to happen. The problem with it, as I see it, is that the writers decided to do the heel-turn at the penultimate episode, instead of building up to it beforehand, with more episodes, in a way that makes people acclimate to it. By doing it on the penultimate episode (while, until then, she was brutal but never unfair), the writers are signaling how cowardly they are, because she's a well liked character and they can't make her look bad to the audience. But it's a pattern on the show, that once a character starts "making mistakes", they get killed soon after, like Stannis did. They just can't commit to her madness, it's why you know she's gonna die next episode.

Neither can Martin write a battle to save his life, so it had to be expected.

He's right but he's also a hack.

>a writers job is NOT to give you what you want
>It’s our job to SHOW you what you want
The fuck does that supposed to mean?

>And anything that doesn't make sense? It's because of another mystery box.
Also: rationalizing whatever nonsense the writer(s) have just handed you is left as an exorcise for the fanbase and if you can't or won't then it's because you're too stupid to make out the detail work on The Empror's New Clothes.

>an entertainer's job is to piss you off and waste your time

Alright.

The funniest thing about these worthless entitled stains is that they act like people react poorly to all twists and bad endings. They just make up their own reality in their heads. In my reality, the real reality, almost no one was mad at the bad end twists in Infinity War, or the Empire Strikes Back, or season one of Game of Thrones. Maybe people get mad at your "clever" twists and subversions because you fucking suck at writing and shouldn't have a job?

>In the world of DC and Marvel macro-continuity, it's a serious dick move to just randomly go around killing characters without a respectful build-up.
EXACTLY, thank you. Not willing to play ball in a shared universe and basically removing pieces from the board other writers can use is not bold, it's greedy.
It means we don't know what we want, dude. We're just meek audience who need to be told what to enjoy because we don't know any better. (not even being facetious, that's what he has said before, that he basically writes for himself)

He's not right. Stop posting here.

Hey, I get where you're coming from, I'm just saying that there's merit in making decisions that will anger some people. It's just secondary to actually being good unless your whole goal is to elicit anger, and in those cases you don't want to pursue the stick comic book outrage methods. You want the audience to seethe because they're invested and this story is getting them riled up. Don't kill Sue Dibney, get Peter in a situation that's entirely unfair to him to the point that the reader and Peter are at their breaking point in tandem. Don't shit on someone else's great comic with a retcon; have the villain keep kicking Clark while He's down and really rub it in deep, establish that boiling hatred for a heroic reprise next month when Superman overcomes the impossible odds and, SURPRISE, forgives the villain instead of venting that hate and giving the audience the blood they want.

Subvert expectations and foster emotion, positive and negative, in order to draw the reader in and make them care.

You're describing shows like Westworld to a t btw, it's the reason why I stopped watching halfway in. And I'm saying this as a LOST fan, because at least that one had plenty of character development amidst the mystery, which was never central to the story. A lot of showrunners and creators learned the wrong lesson from that.

It's stupid. I feel like a writer should produce what THEY want and it's up to the audience to decide if they liked it. He is, at the very least, right that it's not his job to give them what they want. Because then it's nothing but woke bullshit and shipping.

>he basically writes for himself
Lots of writers say that, though

>of course there's bad writing
You would know, Cates...

Yes he is, people constantly discuss the retarded event comics while the well liked stuff gets almost no replies.

Usually, yeah. Its totally reasonable to do a quick and dirty death if the story calls fir it, but readers have grown bitter to it because 90% of writers use it as a crutch. There are stories where Cannonball dying horribly and unexpectedly works. Most superhero stories are not that story.

Yeah, and the ones who don't suck still manage to write entertaining stories that audiences enjoy.

>instead of building up to it beforehand, with more episodes
It really didn't help that they started the season off with a huge battle against the forces of darkness ( The Night King/White Walkers ) rather than ENDING the last season with that and giving people time to chew on all of that, rather than just doing another teleport to another Epic Battle immediately.

All flash and no substance.

GoT. The NightKing got Snoke'd and Dany changed in an instant, like Luke. I'm sure Dany will still go mad in the books, but the way they presented it on the show was Jon Snow refusing to dick her, so the next morning she burns the whole city of King's Landing after they're given the signal that they surrender.

>He is, at the very least, right that it's not his job to give them what they want.

It is his job to produce an entertaining story. If, at the end, the majority of the audience thinks "what a bunch of retarded horseshit" then he has failed to do his job. He's not getting paid to jerk himself off.

Elicit strong responses (not anger) is always a good thing in my opinion, because as you said, it gets people engaged. For instance, I got some real strong responses from that one Champions issue in which Viv and Kamala die and Miles and Amadeus are forced to accept a deal with Mephisto to undo it, making them all tormented... They're suffering because of it, but you know something good will come out of it. It's called a pathos.

There's no "pathos" from this, on the other hand... It's just "surprise motherfucker".

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Who the fuck buys stuff that makes them mad? I sure don't. Also, there are plenty of things that are both good and sell well, which is apparently impossible in his and your idiot worldviews.

While that's true, how many people here actually BUY Heroes in Crisis? Now ask yourself how many buy Immortal Hulk?

I mostly agree with you, user. Just, sometimes anger and frustration is good for a story. In way less frequent and sleezy ways than big 2 writers tend to do it. Some stories NEED harsh, unfair moments that feel spontaneous.

>If, at the end, the majority of the audience thinks "what a bunch of retarded horseshit" then he has failed to do his job.
It's like they say: write something you would want to read. If he was itching to read the existential crisis of a wheelchair in an age of advanced prosthetic limbs as it's carted off to be recycled, then cool. The majority of the people who read it might be like "that's stupid" but he and the half dozen like-minded people will be enthralled.
Oh, god, did I just pull a Brie Larson "it wasn't made for you"?

More people than buy Batman

And that's fine, but again, there are good ways to go about it and definitely terrible ways, and Cates in particular goes on the latter pretty often. I haven't bought a single one of his comics and I doubt I ever will, while I've bought plenty of others that I know I'll be rereading for years.
It's definitely no surprise he likes GoT, because of this like this, this attitude that "I'll write whatever I want and you'll like it no matter what, and if you don't, you'll still buy it" as if the audience is completely passive.

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>Mad people still buy your stuff
That's absolutely not true, not in all cases anyway, what a retarded thing to try and just claim as fact.

>Guys! Just let me write whatever stupid shit i want! It's too hard to write things that make sense and have consistent characters and logical plot progression and an internally consistent universe!
>It's literally impossible!

He's right that GoT doesn't care, but that doesn't change that it'll be remembered as having a shitty ending by most people.

He's right about that, but he's not right in that his entire tweet suggests that fiction can only make people bored or mad.
Yes, writers should write what they want and that isn't always going to be what the audience wants and that's just fine. But when you WANTED the audience to like what you wrote and they end up not liking it, you can't just fall back on "well, with fiction I guess you can only ever make people bored or angry :)" as if you are an infallible paragon of literature and the fault couldn't possibly lie in the quality of your work.

If he actually believes that, then he's a moron. History is full of beloved fiction.

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>rather than just doing another teleport to another Epic Battle immediately
It's been a mess, because Daenerys was their biggest ally during that fight, and now she's the antagonist on the next episode... No breathing space at all, everything is at a breakneck pace to rush an ending that could've had at least 10 episodes to stew. Specially when, unfortunately, this will be the ending book fans will get since GRRM already confirmed he's not nearly done with the upcoming books.

That fat fuck is dying before he gets to the last book.

>how many people here actually BUY Heroes in Crisis? Now ask yourself how many buy Immortal Hulk?
Sauce:
comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2019/2019-04.html

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IF he even finishes the penultimate, anyway.

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That's some impressive lack of reading comprehension, coupled with denial. How do you live with yourself?

>when we might not live in the darkest timeline after all

It didn't change much, Bruce beat his kids both physically and mentally way before that comic

>war of the realms
oh my fuck

Those are #1s.

>it'll be remembered as having a shitty ending by most people
"Make some shit up and keep making shit up until it either collapses under it's own weight or the sales/viewership drop to the point you just walk away" seems to be the rule these days.

But writers somehow forgot that shock is meaningless unless it makes sense

And they always return to old ways after having tons of criticisms and try to make audience think nothing shocking has happened, and everything is just normal again like how Kylo Ren rebuilds his helmet

Pretty much my point. It was the same during Civil War II and Secret Empire (even though I generally liked that event), just because they had very lively discussion threads doesn't mean they were good, it's just that people were roasting them to death.
>Immortal Hulk #16
>Batman #69
>Heroes in Crisis #8

>#1s

When will this whole "art is totally subjective guys so it doesnt matter if i write stupid shit, stop criticizing me" meme finally die?

Well, if he were a good writer then he'd probably be making bank writing novels instead of working in capeshit.

>That's absolutely not true
Yes, it is.

See this:
And image related.

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At this point, Yea Forums is Yea Forums.

It's also a small part of tv dying. People are getting sick of putting in time just to be disappointed.

it's basically this

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>when will people see that the Emperor is Naked??
Not soon enough, senpai.

I think you're overtly obfuscating facts here: a lot of Marvel's recent output (as in, this year's) hasn't revolved around getting people "angry", despite isolated cases like Cates' with his edgeboner. Meanwhile, Heroes in Crisis and Batman are a thing that's happening in DC, along with Bendis' paltry sales in Action Comics.
Also there's that thing about DC purposely focusing on trade sales and decreasing their output, which in turn made Marvel dominate the market with their deluge of minis. So... That picture in particular doesn't prove your point at all.

Mauler, we need you!

>Pretty much my point.
I wasn't disagreeing!

The fact that Hulk is 16 issues in an outselling The Goddamned Batman really can't be stressed enough.

There’s a difference between the audience being mad at the author, and the audience being mad at characters in the story. The latter is good because it means your audience is engaged. The former is bad because your audience has lost that engagement. Having an angry audience is fine, they just have to be angry for the right reasons.

Never. It's been going on for thousands of years. The fact that some artists don't get any recognition until long after their death is a direct result of this mentality. Sensational bullshit will always be more immediately successful. It doesn't matter if it loses all value after the shock wears off, once the money is spent nobody cares.

The only way for a franchise to keep going is having a maniac fanbase. Star Trek was able to go on because it had such a loyal Kirk x Spock fandom of adult women who kept writing fan letters and even got actors to visit their events.

Normies will never care about investing that heavily on a piece of media, and new fans think they're customers who can just ask for a refund. They don't care about creating anything.

The mainstream opinion is the exact opposite, which is why America has that problem where they hate things that aren't "realistic" enough and shun abstractions.

>Sensational bullshit will always be more immediately successful
Not always, even if there are fewer cases of the opposite being true that's enough to say not always.

Also things are very different from how they were thousands of years ago. Now with the internet getting exposure and fame and success for making something good over just something shallow and shocking or pandering can happen just as often.

For as shocking as some of the big scenes in GoT were, the book and to an extent the show, it was always laced with good writing, the situations arose from good character writing and logical plot progression and actions you can believe the characters would take.

Now they're just trying to be shocking and surprising for the simple sake of it and people are absolutely noticing, especially with how rushed it all is.

I dont know, if you look at a lot of online reviewers they tend to give a lot of lee-way for things just as long as it makes them feel a certain way. They'll say things like "Yeah it didnt make any sense but it looked cool and was just awesome and elicited the emotions i wanted".

>new fans think they're customers who can just ask for a refund
This has been the norm lately though, there's a lot of entitlement going on about things because people really believe you can force others to do what you want if you scream loud enough. It would be hypocritical to deny that.

The prevalence of "fan petitions" lately is a proof of this, even as far as going with the fan backlash for stuff like Sony's design. Plenty of examples. But there's also that thing where the audience is treated like passive receivers of content that shouldn't voice dissent, but when a series or show is cancelled, showrunners rush to social media to ask fans to loudly demand the producers to renew it, also via fan petitions and campaigns. So you see, fans are only useful to them when it can directly benefit them, because voicing dissent is apparently detrimental no matter how it happens.

South Park got insanely popular in America because it was drawn in such cutesy style but had very absurd and over the top themes.

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Joke's on you, Yea Forums. I've been mad at "subvert expectations" mindset before it was cool.

>I've been mad at "subvert expectations" mindset before it was cool.
I'm sure that everyone was always mad at that idea since most of the time it throws something under the bus to make it happen.

>online reviewers they tend to give a lot of lee-way for things just as long as it makes them feel a certain way
Or if the politics is in line or pushes their preferred narrative.

So you get leftys supporting NuGhostbusters ( because GRRL POWAH! ) and rightys trying to review bomb Captain Marvel well before it even opened ( for exactly the same reason ).

>Get bored if you don't shock them

I'm no writer but this sounds wrong. Surely having compelling characters and an interesting plot is enough?

Yeah, and it happened before the huge "fuck style" trend started. You still had painted covers/posters and popular caricature artists who were relevant to pop culture. Around the early 00s that largely fell out of style, and companies are only now opening up to traditional drawing over airbrushing photos and 3D renders again.

I wonder how Disney feels about there new Star Wars show after this season of GoT? They seem in full damage control over The Last Jedi, going full pander mode by reviving seemingly scrapped concept art that depicted Palpatine coming back. Not GoT seems to have pissed off fans in the same way.

In what world is that right? They replaced Iron Man with a nigger, I stopped buying even though I was an Ironfag. They niggered Jean in AoXM and I won’t buy anything X-Related. King turned Batman into his personal therapy and I dropped it. They wrecked Moon Knight by focusing on his Kikeness and DiD, so I didn’t even bother with the latest run. And so on and so forth. In what world does someone keep buying something that makes him mad? At best he’s going to pirate the book.

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You can thank Shrek for that

The thing is GoT totally does care about what you want. You want to see a show where the virtuous don’t always win in the end and where their quest for justice or love can get them killed? You want to see a show where people’s mistakes come back to bite them and have long lasting consequences that can dramatically change the direction of the story in an unexpected yet still satisfying way? You want a show that subverts many tired fantasy and medieval tropes in favor of something new and interesting? The answer for loads of people is yes, if people didn’t want something like GoT to begin with, no one would have watched it.

>Also, there are plenty of things that are both good and sell well
Barely.

Don't these come out in 2022 anyway? There's plenty of time between now and then for most to forget or at least cozy up to the idea. They still were rushing this show to be free of it, so they could take care of the movies... And I think it's also "revenge" for HBO cancelling their Civil War show due to heavy backlash.

Soooo... Writing comics is just maintaining long term Stockholm Syndrome.

And we wonder why this is a dying industry.

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>Those are #1s
Um ... no?

But, just for shits and giggles, this is the top ten with all the #1's removed:
3 3 Batman Who Laughs 4 $4.99 04/10/19 DC 103,645
4 7 Immortal Hulk 16 $3.99 04/03/19 Marvel 90,305
5 8 Batman 69 $3.99 04/17/19 DC 88,666
6 9 Batman 68 $3.99 04/10/19 DC 87,557
8 12 Heroes In Crisis 8 $3.99 04/24/19 DC 79,512
10 11 Amazing Spider-Man 20 $3.99 04/24/19 Marvel 76,903
11 13 Amazing Spider-Man 19 $3.99 04/10/19 Marvel 74,018
12 10 War of Realms 2 $4.99 04/17/19 Marvel 70,704
13 14 Detective Comics 1001 $3.99 04/10/19 DC 66,743
14 15 Detective Comics 1002 $3.99 04/24/19 DC 61,007

The Expanse, for example, is a show and novel series with its fair share of brutal deaths and twists, all the while being engaging and offering a long term narrative that works many angles... And it sells well and has a fairly active fanbase. Rarely you see people complaining about X character being badly portrayed, but how X reacted about this and that, and how they get out of Y situation. Following the discussions online is actually fun, specially since the show doesn't treat you like an idiot either.
Shows like these might not be the norm, but it tells you it can be done when you try.

>Stockholm syndrome

But that's obviously not what's happening. Readers eventually get fed up as shown by King's Batman and Bendis' Superman.

No. Clealy King and Bendis are the hot new talents at DC. Their iconic work is beloved by all the fans.

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first off, ban this shit thread and ban all twitter threads on sight

second, that's horse shit. game of thrones was already the most popular show on tv. you didn't have to make it fucking terrible in order for people to talk about it. jesus christ. just write a conclusion

>if people didn’t want something like GoT to begin with, no one would have watched it.
Right: but I enjoyed watching a show where the clever characters like Little Finger and Tyrion were, try and follow me here, ACTUALLY VERY CLEVER.

But once they ran out of books to mine for their clever they fell back to the standard witer's crutch and started passing around the Idiot Ball.

Likewise when you got waaaay out of your way to create a setting where "anyone can die" having that fat fuck Samwell Tarly survive The Long Night might well be a subversion ... but not in a good way.

>and the fault couldn't possibly lie in the quality of your work
You would have a strong point if people actually criticized the quality or execution of writing, instead people are just mad at the mere concept and they're mad because "this character did something I dont like". Take Tom King, horrible writer but when you see retards unironically bitching that he punched one of his Robins so now he's a child abuser, well... you realize these people are retarded. The writing in his Batman comics is rancid, plain and simple, and the fact that you think you have to make up shit like this to have a reason to hate on him means you really don't care about the quality of his writing, you're just mad Batman didn't marry Catwoman and you're still pretending like the writing wasn't dogshit before that. But back to my point, the people that make such arguments as "hurt King maek Batman child abuzer" are the same people that screech when a female character is hurt in fiction(even if said character is an action series and she only got punched once or twice while fighting a horde of bad guys) because it means the writer is a sexist that gets off on this.
Fact is, Heroes in Crisis not only sells better than Green Lantern, but it's storytime threads get at least double the amount of replies and there are numerous talkback threads for it until the next issue drops.

"The Long Night" being literally one night could also be seen as a subversion

Jokes on you, Yea Forums loves using
>well, that's just your opinion
or
>it's my opinion and I don't have explain shit so back off
As arguments.

>And it sells well and has a fairly active fanbase
It also got canceled by Syfy before getting picked up again by Netflix.

Which is the other problem: even if you have writers who are doing their best to give you a good story there's always the chance that the thing will get Firefly'd.

And it's one of the worst things about this place.

The anger fades. If you only get attention by pissing people off they catch on/get used to it and after awhile they stop caring complete.

You only have to try to piss people off for attention if you suck.

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That's fucking everyone alive and it's one of the worst ways to reply to criticism.

And yet those shows and comics sell the best and get the most attention. Weird.

He has a point, to be honest.

>If you only get attention by pissing people off they catch on/get used to it and after awhile they stop caring
Meanwhile, in the White House ...

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>How about Saga?
Anyone who waifu'd The Stalk.

It's not very popular, user. It has a small fanbase.

>The anger fades
Not really, but at least I only tend to remember the things that I like instead of the things that I hate.

When it's done well, like GoT from seasons 1-4 then you can see why it sells and why there's a mass following for it, and then you have shit like HiC that just does edgy things for the sake of being shocking.

No you dont, Tim.

>You don't want that. You think you do, but you don't.

GoT 1-4 wasn't very good, it just became worse. And the damn show was always about shocking and subverting expectations, people only started getting mad when their favorite characters had to deal with this shit.

>Anyone who waifu'd The Stalk.
I'm pretty sure that they whacked the kid's dad just before the Indefinite Hiatus was announced.

I'm not going to read another 'epic' until it's finished and in the can having learned the hard way with 'Song of Ice and Fire' and 'Wheel of Time.' But I seem to remember people bitching about it around then.

Oh right, shame on me, i wanted to have good writing but i guess that's my fault. I should be happy with getting garbage because i didnt expect it.

Sorry, not sorry.

>i wanted to have good writing
We both know that's a lie, user

Yeah, it was about subverting the tropes that you find in fantasy settings, but get this, it made sense and it was a character driven show. Now shit happens because the story needs it to happen or because it would shock audiences.

>GoT 1-4 wasn't very good
Seasons 1-3 are good and Tyrion's trial is also good, since season five (and some parts of season 4) the show has been on a steady decline to the shit that we have now.

>GoT 1-4 wasn't very good, it just became worse
I'd argue that it was very good, not perfect or anything but overall great.

And it has nothing to do with the subversions happening to characters people like. People used to like Stannis, people loved Tywin and Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark and Rob Stark. These characters were beloved by the fans and with the exception of Stannis who fans claim was ruined in the show everyone was still happy to keep watching after the deaths of Robert and Ned and Tywin. People werent getting up in arms like you say because characters they liked died.

The problem is the fucking writing. There was set up and logical progression and steps that led characters to those moments. The problem with season 8 and why it lit the fanbase on fire is because it's such a garbage rushed job and the writing is abysmal because they're clearly just trying to fucking end it.

Saying that people just dont like it now because it's happening to characters they like is ridiculous, that's been happening, but there was a level of quality that let people accept it.

Speak for yourself, moron.

GoT was never great, decent sure but it was always overhyped and its popularity came from subverting expectations, I predicted back in season 3 what characters would and wouldn't die and I was right. Killing off Ned was shocking and he was presented as the main character but then you realize Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow and Dany are main characters and surprise surprise they actually don't get killed iff and get to have their generic revenge story like Arya. Oh wait, Jon Snow did die... except he wasn't "killed off" so I'm still counting that as being right.

Don't lie, user.

>GoT 1-4 wasn't very good
It was some of the best television ever made, your Yea Forumsntrarianism notwithstanding.

>damn show was always about shocking and subverting expectations
Sure. But it went from god-tier world building and character voice to Mark Millar tier 'Ow, the edge.'

>people only started getting mad when their favorite characters had to deal with this shit.
The main complaint this season ( up until the abrupt face/heel turn last episode ) was literally the abundant Plot Armour that allowed Samwell to survive a siege of endless hordes of undead ( also Podrick and Greyworm ) or Jamie to survive getting unhorsed in a lake while wearing platemail while attempting to run down a dragon.

You know you arent going anywhere with this, right?

Being overhyped or overrated isnt an actual point of criticism, that's outside the content. As for only being popular by subverting expectations that cant be true because anyone can just set something up and then throw that set up out the window for a surprise. In GoT it was only impactful because of the characters in the twist and how it happens.

>People used to like Stannis, people loved Tywin and Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark and Rob Stark
No, not at all. The masses loved Dany and Arya and Tyrion. I loked Tywin but zi knew he was going to die because he was too competent. Rober and (show) Stannis had miserably small fanbases, Rob was a charisma vacuum and Ned dying was one if the selling points of the damn series "omg they killed the main character" when in reality, the main characters were the 3 I named earlier.

>Yea Forumsntrarianism
Opinion discarded

>Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow and Dany are main characters and surprise surprise they actually don't get killed
You telling me you "totally called" The Red Wedding, nigger?

>in reality, the main characters were the 3 I named earlier
By this logic Sansa should have bought it 4 seasons ago ...

Post red wedding, dumbass. And I did believe Rob would die because we were told(not even shown) he was godlike in the field but we were shown he was a dumbass child outside of fighting battles. And he wasn't popular.

The masses arent the only fans in the world user, those characters had their fanbases even if they werent the most popular. And Ned dying being a selling point doesnt discount that he was liked, otherwise no one would have given a fuck because no one cared about him. The masses can like whatever but they're also the ones who will simply complain about "Wah my character died". Which doesnt even apply to Dany because she didnt die, just her fucking character arc did. People are mad about Dany's rushed character assassination not being killed off.

By what logic? Sansa, Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion. These were the main characters.

Yeah, and that's nearly the moment the show was starting to run out of book material and by that point was already changing a fuck ton of the original novels anyway. Being able to predict the generic TV writing that the writers were then doing isnt much of a feat.

>The masses arent the only fans in the world user, those characters had their fanbases even if they werent the most popular
What's the point of even saying this? What are you getting at?
GoT had a massive fanbase and most of them didn't care about Stannis or Robert(half of the GoT fans dont even remember the old King's name) and Ned has always been only mid tier in terms of popularity. The most popular characters were Arya, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion and Jon, the characters that actually had plot armor.

i think the problem with capeshit comics is that there's no ending or consequences or anything that matters. Would be so much better if they had something like the Ultimate universe for both MARVEL and DC and have it run for maybe 10-15 years with a beginning and an end for all the characters in that line and then move onto a different alternate universe.

>Western Writers
You can shock people in a "cool awesome way" or in an "antagonistic I dont like the readers fuck my own story" way

The point is obvious? That just because a character is not part of THE MOST POPULAR doesnt mean they arent well liked or have their own fanbases?

Counterpoint, all of the MCU.

Boring, milquetoast, predictable stuff all around and raking in billions.

So are comic writers mostly just hacks who couldn’t do anything else?

Any character can have a fanbase, idiot. But having a fanbase of a handful of people and having a fanbase of millions of people is not the same thing.

>By what logic?
Yours: Sansa was easily one of the most hated characters from the very first season on.

When they were setting up the fake-out with Little Finger I honestly expected Little Finger to have one of his 'chats' with Sansa, convince her to have Arya 'dealt with' and then, as she turned away, murder the fuck out of her before pulling off a false face to reveal everyone's favourite Murder Waifu.

Something shocking isn’t inherently anger inducing. Dialate.

Guys, keep the thread Yea Forums-related, please.

>Boring, milquetoast, predictable stuff all around
That reminds me, the It remake was successful too.

Problem is that the tweet itself is not talking about Yea Forums stuff and there's really nothing else to talk about.

The problem with a show like GoT is that it can easily get too big too fast. There's so many characters, so many plotlines, and so much time that audience invests into the show that it becomes impossible to please even half your audience.

It also doesn't help that it took nearly 2 years for the final season to come out. That's 2 years of your fans just sitting there coming up with their own visions of how things should end. So they naturally become pissed when it doesn't go their way.

I thought Hulk would be selling so much worse, this makes me so happy to see.

>and so much time that audience invests into the show that it becomes impossible to please even half your audience.
I think that everyone knew that the end wouldn't satisfy everyone, but I don't think that the solution is to burn everything to the ground.

Man, I'm so glad I never bothered with GoT.

And just because a character is more popular than others doesn’t mean they are the only characters that matter you fucking retard, stop being so fucking stupid.

Insanely successful and they didn't do a single 'new' thing with it. No shocking twists or anything, just the previous work done... well, 'better' is a stretch but certain aspects were better and now its the highest grossing horror film of all time.

He never said that.
Prove me wrong.

They didn't even bother with any good scares. Most were just insanely predictable jumpscares. I guess those are not cancer killing horror when the media wants to praise a movie.

Nah, I’ll just buy stuff from the writer who does give me what I want. It’s not that hard.
What a stupid thing to say.

>The problem with a show like GoT is that it can easily get too big too fast.
The problem with GoT is that they based the show on a book series w/o having the completed series in hand from the start and they ran out of source material.

Adapting novels for serialized television isn't the same thing as trying to write those plots yourself.

And it's always going to be easier to ask questions or set up plot points than it is to give them satisfying answers/conclusions.

But, to at least try to steer this back on topic, that's universally true: look at Big Events like Hickman's Secret Wars ( which mostly worked, although Editorial lacked anything like the intestinal fortitude to follow through on it ) or Bendis's Civil War II ( which fails on every level ).

Both of those had extra issues added after the project was already up and running which is what happens when you don't plot things out in advance.

It gets even worse when you talk about the X-Line where, as Hickman acknowledged, it's largely devolved into X-Men stories ABOUT X-Men stories.

Cates is a retard

>"Just because you don't like the direction of a story doesn't mean it's wrong."
That's the correct way to say what you wanted to say idiot

I'd suggest just not watching the next episode of Game of Thrones. I unironically think the end game of this crap is literally murdering the audience

>I thought Hulk would be selling so much worse
I think it's a combination of the title giving people something that they want and most of the Usual Suspects ... not doing that.

This is so fucking stupid. Most people people watching GOT never wanted or expected Ned Stark to die, or the Red Wedding, or Hodor to Hold the Door but they still loved it because it was better written and well done. The last season has just been shit which is why people are angry.

I don’t much like Ewing, but he has defintely opened my eyes tot he potential of the Hulk as a character(s).

>Yes, it is.

"Angry fans buy books" hasn't really been true for the last four years. Did you have your head in the sand all this time, or something?

Hydra Cap/Secret Empire was a major example of them trying to get a rise out of people, and it blew up in their faces to the point where the event badly underperformed compared to recent events and retailers were also angry. On top of that, the angriest fans were the ones who only watched the movies and not read the comics, aka the audience that Marvel really wanted to replace the longtime fans with.

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It's like these people believe storytelling is just a confidence trick and the audience can never get genuinely invested.

It's not really surprising the industry is ran by charlatans, but they really should know better than to act indignant when they've been found out.

I fucking hate twitter and everyone involved with a passion but he's obviously right. People like surprises but not too much. Can't argue with that. To be fair tho, bad writing is involved with most of these surprises

I think Immortal Hulk is an actual example of a writer giving the audience something they didn't know they wanted.

I think you might be right, I never knew I wanted a Dad Hulk but here we are.

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Just stay off twitter and write what you want if you think that it's good. The fact that they're sitting there trying to explain how great they are is fucking proof that they aren't. If they actually believed in anything they'd just shut the fuck up and do what they want.
Twitter is a place where you post status updates. Not fucking debate, argue, and expect to have some sort of meaningful conversation.

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The thing is, there's going to be people who'll be mad with a story. That's inevitable.

The biggest problem I've seen in the last two decades, is creative types dismissing most if not all criticism under the guise that it's just mad fans. That's dangerous and really explains the drop in quality in a lot of things. Are fans always in the right? Hell no. But when there's large scale anger it's better to step back and reassess instead of getting into fights on Twitter.

lets be honest for one second, USA has their brain on their asses AKA their political agenda and unfortunately that doesnt sell outside of USA because we dont give a flying fuck about your irrelevant politics.
in 20 years this will be seen maybe as the "darkest age" for those same reasons.

>Hydra Cap/Secret Empire was a major example
I can only speak for myself: but I ignored the whole event not because I was angry about Sevil's face/heel turn; but because I was just sick of Big Events That Will Totally Change The Marble Universe 4 EVAH!!!

None of them ever did/do. Even something like Secret Wars, that I mostly enjoyed, didn't really amount to much other than derailing all the current storylines.

The same reason I ignored Spider-Geddon, Infinty Wars, X-Men Disassembled ( and the whole line since then ), and War of the Realms.

Of course I may well have missed the Outrage Bait, but I haven't heard anything about WotRs that sounds like it was trying to make the fans angry to generate sales ( correct me if I'm wrong ).

>Comic fans today seem to need for their purchases to "count"

Possibly because the price floats around $4-5 for a single 21 page issue? A Book where nothing happens at all and it's all walking and talking without a plot does seem like a huge waste. Especially if you now have to wait another month, if there are no delays, to see what happens next.

WotR definitely didn't have anything that seemed like it was trying to make the fans angry to generate sales. On the other hand I didn't really hear much about it. I know with last year's crossover with the Infinity Wars is that it was "two characters get mashed up together" and "Gamora killed Thanos".

The amount of contrarian dicksucking from people is hilarious. Yes, Jaime ending up as a terrible person is realistic and you can see how it would end up that way. But it is incredibly unsatisfying to have a character's 8 seasons of character development to be "I'm still the same person I was in season 1 episode 1". This season is filled with sloppy shitty writing and the inside the episode segments have become nothing but damage control for their writing.

Also I think they forgot that he killed the king to save the city.

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I wonder if social media is the real problem, writers now always see when fans bitch and moan. They forgot that this is 90% of what dedicated fans do.

Instead of fans keeping to their own dedicated Trek and Wars forums like before they are now on twitter and reddit botching and moaning about everything they see where others who would never join X fan forums can now see and interact.

At a minimum I'd say Twitter is the problem because now anyone can barge right in and interact. Unlike a message board where you'd have to actively keep going there.

The irony to all this is that John Byrne ends up being the sensible one because he sticks to his own forum.

Social Media is the real problem but just in general sense as well.

The audience doesn't need to be shocked they need to see stakes and the hero struggle. Whether that is a moral struggle, a physical struggle, or a mental struggle. They need to have something to overcome.

>But it is incredibly unsatisfying
In much the same way having Lady Brienne of Tarth hook up with Ser Jamie over a Wildling makes sense ... but having Jamie then immediately fuck off back to King's Landing ... JUST!

>Not really until around 95 Or so, after its huge boom started dying down anyway.

I don't know, people who read X-Men in the 1980s have been angry with the books since Claremont left in 1991, some since the launch of X-Factor, where he lost complete control of the franchise. These people still have the numbers and the anger to dominate the fandom.

>that part where they're like LMAO YOUR STILL A VIRGIN?!
I think they're just totally checked out for Star Wars at this point, they forgot what kind of setting their show takes place in. Women didn't have the ability to go around fucking willy nilly, that was one of the power imbalances that the show used to explore within the setting of feudalism.

Also I think its hilarious that every actor is coming forward to say they're not happy with what their characters ended up doing.

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It's too late for me to give my opinion without it being drowned in dozens of responses

But only edgy faggots think that shocking someone is the same as making them upset

Showing some kid getting raped and then hung isn't the "X-factor" that would make more people watch spongebob
The argument itself is dumb because it equates controversy to popularity--which we all know isn't true
The whole bad press is good press thing only works if enough people are willing to start engaging in your thing--but it doesn't scale upwards. You can't do the worst things imaginable and the expect people to like whatever you're showcasing in your fiction because they are mad about it

>I wonder if social media is the real problem
It's taken something that's always been there:

>There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” -- Isaac Asimov, January 21, 1980

And taken it to it's logical extreme.

Wouldn't King and Bendis currently on AC, Batman, and Superman prove that this way of thinking is bullshit?

if you can´t surprise/shock people without getting them mad you might just be a bad writer

Yes, see also what happened with Secret Empire:

>Wouldn't King and Bendis currently on AC, Batman, and Superman prove that this way of thinking is bullshit?
I guess we'll find out when The Jobbing happens.

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>It was some of the best television ever made
It's a fucking soap opera, you ass.

Not them, and I'm not saying what deaths would happen is pbvious, but it's painfully clear from the star that Jonny boy isn't gonna die.

>but it's painfully clear from the star that Jonny boy isn't gonna die.
No, it was clear for the last two seasons or so that he wasn't gonna die. Just like it was clear by the time Dany showed up in Westros that Janny was where they were going to go with things.

>It's a fucking soap opera
It's a LotRs tier Epic Fantasy and it's being produced for fucking CABLE TELEVISION.

If you'd tried to tell people even a few years before the first season aired that it would have happened at all, let alone been as good as it was for the first few seasons, people would have thought you were barking mad.

Blackwater was pretty fucking groundbreaking for television

Personally I viewed everyone in the show as expendable and potentially capable of dying except for Dany. She just had too much plot and investment built up into her character. The idea of “no one is too important to not die” rings true to some extent for everyone but Dany stands out like a sore thumb of proving it false because of how much of the story is set and hung up on her journey.

>It's a LotRs tier Epic Fantasy and it's being produced for fucking CABLE TELEVISION.
Aka, people standing around talking at each other. It's a fucking soap opera, user. Just because it has that grimey fantasy coating doesn't change that.

>it was painfully obvious that Arya would kill the Night King and that Bran would end up as king of Westeros
You know Jon ends up taking the black at the end and just going north, right? What a satisfying conclusion.

In terms of money, I guess.

>It was some of the best television ever made
Imagine having such shit taste, you'd have to be the kind of retarded that posts on redit and resorts to shit like "you just don't like it because it's popular, the masses have spoken and if you don't agree with the lowest common denominator then you are a contrarian aka objectively wrong"

In terms of execution and scale you massive retard. There was nothing like it on television before, it was an incredible undertaking. Are you even informed about production or television/film in general, and the history of those mediums?

>lmao people think Breaking Bad or The Sopranos are good? Its just a soap opera XD

Way to say nothing that even attempts to prove what he said as wrong, would have been nice to see what he said isn’t true instead of some user just going “Hurr well duh of course das not right!”

>its all one enormous run on sentence
Damn dude you're mad as fuck

>Way to say nothing
Good way of summing up what a retard that uses "contrarian" unironically as an argument says.

Yes. That's a money thing. Not a writing thing, not a performance thing.

They gave a TV show a movie budget for a loyd, noisy set piece. That isn't a breakthrough in anything other than money spent and doing shit from movies for TV. They couldn't have even DONE it if it wasn't for all the money. It's impressive given tv production pipelines, yeah, but that's entirely a matter of throwing so much fucking money at it. It isn't some watershed moment in tv writing or direction or acting. It's just a big dumb set piece. The show' s cinematography is regularly strong, but nothing amazing. It's propped up on shock, cliffhangers, subplots and budget.

You're treating it like it's done anything other than show that high budgets and long term storytelling can pay off, but that's not new either.

It can certainly be used against people not willing or capable of levying any other argument at all against something

The success of the first year or so of Rebirth proves all this wrong. It IS possible to sell comics without pissing people off. It's just a hell of a lot harder to do so, so they fall back on cheap gimmicks and subversive hackery. Fuck DC and fuck the industry.

Not really. Those are character dramas.
See, the difference is one relies on shock value and way too much detail to mask mediocre writing while the other is actually about writing dramatic situations for a well realized character to struggle through.

Seethe more, bitch.

>He's right, you know.

no, he absolutely wrong. Shocking your audience is a cheap trick of people who cant do their fucking job. people develop disgust and arrogance to such shocks and just stop the reading or go into ignore stage. only psyching ill people are staying triggered by the same Shocking trick longer because it flips their inner balance over. the best way to make your stories interesting is having a mix of education, discovery, fun and reviewing the action. Shocking is cheap and bad shit.

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It's basically an obnoxious way of saying "I wish we were on redit so I could downvote your post".

>Yes. That's a money thing. Not a writing thing, not a performance thing.
>not a performance thing
You're a fucking retard. Blackwater was absolutely tied to performance. The performance of not just the actors but the crew that made such an undertaking possible. Again, there was nothing like Blackwater before, it changed how television battle scenes are viewed and conducted. This isn't just me saying this, there are plenty of experts in the field who can attest to how influential that episode was.

>Blackwater wasn't some watershed moment in television directing
Imagine saying this and expecting to be taken seriously

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It can surely be used that way, yes.

>He's so mad that he not only doesn't rebuff it, but refuses to quote it.

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>Not really. Those are character dramas.
And Game of Thrones isn't a character drama? Its listed as a drama on IMDB.

>success
>completely and eternally destroys DC to the point of no return
>success
Look up the numbers for 2017, they're abysmal. DC has fallen behind even in sales of collections now. Double shipping a butload of #1s and putting variants on every title is not healthy. Rebirth killed DC.

Game of thrones are different stories and plots. the Creator literally writes different books in same setting. this is a fucking trick of GOT.

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No wonder Yea Forums sucks so much, you retards worship Game of Plebs. How embarrassing.

>there are plenty of experts in the field
There are experts in the field of comics who say Geoff Johns is a good writer.
Don't appeal to that. There's been better choreography on tv, just not on a show with a fuckload of money. That's all this is. The crew did an amazing job on special effects, but that's the only element that was amazing and new for television.

Okay, so Lord of the Rings is a soap opera by your definition.

Pretending to be retarded isn't going to help your argument, buddy. It just exposes you as an actual retard.

No, that's an adventure story. See, there's an actual fucking goal instead if kudzu subplots and shock deaths.

>There's been better choreography on tv, just not on a show with a fuckload of money.
Name one. Name a more influential large scale battle on television prior to Blackwater. I'll even be nice and say you don't have to limit it to fantasy.

And yes I trust experts in my field over some retard on Yea Forums going "lmao Blackwater wasn't that big of a deal for television." Way to cheapen the work the director did (I bet you can't even name him without looking it up).

Imagine thinking a drama is not a drama just because it upsets you, that would be so embarrassing.

Sorry DC Damage Controller, that argument doesn't work because 2017 was the second year.

Why are you so mad that it's a soap opera? That isn't inherently a bad thing. What the fuck do you think a space opera is?

>deflecting
GOT has no world building and coul literally be done in a small school theater. It's not a travel, it's not a legend, it's who fucks who and who kills who.

hahaha. DC was born as a fucking dead meat from a begin on. it survived so long because american goverment is using it to establish the fucking american dream ideology in own propaganda. Since the democrats won the election and senate Marvel replaced the DC and now all money and candies go to the Marvel shit. DC smokes in the corner trying to invent new happy place ideology when bashing around with social and scientific progress criticism.

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I'm starting to think you guys haven't actually read A Song of Ice and Fire. You certainly haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories.

>GOT has no world building
I mean, it used to before they ran out of book material. Are you kidding right now? Its absolutely a travel for a large amount of the cast. Brienne has a huge fucking quest that she goes on, for example (and its executed so badly in the show).

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Well, it started at the end of 2016 so I guess I am doing you a disservice by not counting the first few months in which they released the #1's. 2017 was full on Rebirth and it did terrible numbers. Thanks for reinforcing my point though.

>Changing goalposts

Yeah, that's what you were trying to do. 2017 was the year of Rebirth. 2016 was a non Rebirth year since it only started in the last few months and the reaction to it was felt in 2017. Keep crying over facts, it won't change shit.

only bad writers feel how they feel. no one who writes and is worth a damn even considers something so completely stupid and hack. the reason they need to use gimmicks is bc when they try to tell good stories people dont read them bc they suck

>Name one.
Oka-
>Name a more influential
You juat changed the parameters in less than one sentence. Quality and influence aren't the same. Fuck off with this disingenuous garbage.
>And yes I trust experts in my field
>my field
Oh boy, I love LARPing.
>over some retard on Yea Forums going "lmao Blackwater wasn't that big of a deal for television."
That's not what I said. You sure like changing the argument as it suits you.

I said it was only a watershed moment for special effects. That means it's still a watershed moment. The direction is good. The acting is good. The choreography is good. None if it is groundbreaking, just uncommon. It's the sum of these parts (and mostlu the effects) that make this important. It wasn't some breakthrough in shot composition and scene direction.
>Way to cheapen the work the director did
I think pretending their work is some new, amazing breakthrough when it isn't is far more disrespectful. Get off the dick, separate the amazing work the crew did from the director's job as a whole. It excels beyond all else in one aspect, mostly because it's one of the only shows to ever be given that chance.

But fuck it, you've made it clear that anything less than jerking GoT off at every possible turn is sacriledge.

>that massive post
>not a single example given
Why did you even bother to reply, dipshit?

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>Its not a soap opera because those are bad and my thing is good. >:(

>Give an example of X
>Except also A, B, C, Y and Z, but not W since I'm being generous. ;)
You don't deserve an actual argument at this point. Made it pretty clear.

You couldn't give ANY example, you started to by saying Oka- and then backed out like a bitch. Why not continue that thought and give the example?

And way to accuse me of LARPing for working in production, you insufferable cunt. It would be roleplay if anything, can't have LIVE ACTION on the internet. I never claimed to work for HBO and I don't even like Game of Thrones anymore, but that doesn't mean Blackwater wasn't massively influential for depicting battles on television.

>It would be roleplay if anything, can't have LIVE ACTION on the internet.
I dunno, you sure are busy jerking yourself off.

You're a fucking retard of the highest order.

I think that comeback made more sense in your head, user.

But hey I accept your loss and your apology for being such a dumbass.

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It can be both. And it wouldn’t be unfair to say that it is.

user said it was influential, just that not every part was amazing, calm down.

Agree. People dont like cheap or illogical shock moments. And people dont expect shock moments but suspense or mysteries.
Its quite showing that the artist complaining only know the words boring or shocking.

I can live with that. At least you're not seething about it.

He means
>You are dumb sheeps, stop criticise me and eat it up!!1! reeeeeeeeeee

Shit, Kamen Rider has better choreography, and it's a Japanese toy commercial. Game of Thrones has good choreography for American tv, but that's a low bar.

I'm not the user you're talking to, least i'm pretty sure i'm not, so i have no problem admitting to that.

>"Art is subjective so stop trying to criticize me!!!"

Mad people still buy your stuff
ok
Bored people dont.
ok
>Thats why you cant have nice things?

Buying nice things bad got it

Yeah I know, I'm saying at least you can admit you like a soap instead of crying about it. People need to get over themselves, it's okay to like ""trashy"" things.

How come everytime audiences start criticizing writing choices, people like this flow out of the woodwork, tripping over themselves as they try to explain why the audience is always wrong?
Have these people never been disappointed by something they were invested in and tried to explain why? If they have, were they in the wrong back then?

It didn't start to die until the wedding fiasco and the failures of Doomsday Clock and Heroes in Crisis. Before that, people actually liked DC again for a brief moment.

I think the episode where Joffery dies is the last episode that GRRM had direct involvement in

Which explains why the Dorne/Iron Islands plots were so...well calling them half-assed would be too kind

>Mad people still buy your stuff. Bored people don't
This is so fucking wrong. When writers do things that make people mad it's always marketed with "THIS WILL CHANGE X CHARACTER FOREVER!!" and normalfags swoop it up thinking it'll have some value that may cause a slight spike but no one cares after two issues. When people are "bored" they just buy the comic and numbers stay at a constant. Constantly relaunching and going into events will be the death of comics

>Which explains why the Dorne/Iron Islands plots were so...well calling them half-assed would be too kind
Those two things (and specially Dorne) are SO important for the rest of the series that it was ridiculous how they were completely sidelined on the show, specially with these Sand Snakes being so misused and ridiculed. The whole subplot was a mess.

That not what he is saying you moron
Plenty of people were upset with how endgame ended, a lot of people were content but tweets that go “Loved the movie! Very satisfied” are not shared by hundreds of idiots trying to have an opinion, anger makes people talk about stuff, it’s been nearly a week and they are still upset about the last GoT episode
Critics and outrage spreads like fire, it’s better for a show in the long run, nowhere does it say they purposely write things wrong to generate anger

They take criticism of what they consume as an attack on them for liking it.

Is this the brother of Patrick Willems? Oh wait who am i kidding, he'd never admit there is such a thing as bad writing in the first place.

To keep people captive? Yes
But what you want it’s an ever increasing flow of followers, and you get that by shocking people, good shocking it’s hard and even if you put effort it no always works

>GOT has no world building
Not that guy but for all of ASoIaF's faults, poor worldbuilding is not one of them.

Like said, ASOIAF is PURE worldbuilding, and on top of that there's books like The World of Ice And Fire that further expands on it, to the point of addressing parts of the geography that have nothing to do with the main story. The series itself has been rushed towards its ending since Season 6 at least, while Season 4 and 5 started butchering plot ploints left and right.

Have you heard of the Twilight Zone remake? Jesus H. Christ...

>Doomsday Clock
>Failure
How retarded are you? It’s still selling above 100k every issue dumbfuck

Issue 10 coming any day now...

>in 20 years this will be seen maybe as the "darkest age" for those same reasons.

Nahhh, 20 years from now we'll look back on this like any PSA from the 90's.

On one hand, it's normal to be a little upset by someone not liking something you like, but on another hand, this comes across like burying one's head in the sand and yelling that nothing's wrong.

That's not a failure though, their immense delays don't take away from its sales and quality. If they did, it would be worth mentioning.

I've actually liked some of the episodes, but I gotta be honest... As someone who certainly does not have a stick up his ass about "current day agendas" and similar bullshit that outrages so many neocon zoomers on this site, the show has definitely NOT been as engaging as it could have been. They're mostly half-baked and way on the nose about their "messages", and not even in a Black Mirror way.

Can't argue with that.

If you're a retarded goldfish, yeah

It's a moral relativist statement. It reduces the topic of respect for characterization and continuity down to "thing you don't like happening makes you mad". It's an insincere defense made by a writer for playing God with characters he never created, and probably has no respect for. You think he's right because you also have no respect for characters or the past.

Back in my day we called those "cliffhangers"

>We're just meek audience who need to be told what to enjoy because we don't know any better.

Aka a normie. This isn't controversial

This is the writing philosophy for lazy writers. If you make a fun action story with cool well-written likable characters, people will consistently buy your book. Everytime we get this it goes well until some event happens and everyone dies or becomes evil and drives off the fans.

Cates operates with cliffhangers and fakeouts to the point they stop having any impact. You just know every issue will end that way because he can't write anything engaging enough on its own. It's also why he relies on "surprise guest appearances" that aren't announced anywhere, just to force people to read them. Dude's a hypebeast.

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Every problem with Game of Thrones stems from the absolute retards D&D.

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Nice of Asbæk to stick to his guns, that actually sounds better than whatever they went with (I didn't see the episode).

>MauLer
>A good critic
You can only have one bucko.

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>buying

Patrick please, dont drink too much of that milk

>this is why you can't have nice things
haha le epic meme, i can has cheeseburger lmao

It means he can't think clearly.

It's basically Miyamoto or some Jap game developer's quote that went something like

>You arent supposed to give players what they want, you're supposed to give them something they didnt know they wanted.

He really has issues expressing himself, and it shows when you have to elucidate what he's talking about.

The problem in regards to Game of Thrones is that it’s hard to convince people thy didn’t know what they actually wanted was bad writing.

How hard is it to make something shocking yet not controversial? Do they have no artistic integrity, or are they just untalented?

Well yeah because that's not what they've come to expect.

People also buy comics they like to read, but it's harder to write something enjoyable than something disdainful.

Bought 7 and not 8. Probably will get 9.