Why are characters who work hard so much more better than naturally talented characters?

>Goku hard work
>Stark not hard work
At least try

>Cap consistently trains
Yes, casual training in the gym. Sasuke killed himself for years and he jobbed a lot. Stark worked hard too.

It doesn’t matter how you got it, it’s what you do with it

i think he's referring to the whole intellectual genius thing. the type where he's flat out drunk but can still give correct lectures, that sort of thing.

All of them had some natural talent - even if they put hard work in as well

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How is Sasuke not a hard worker?

He had great talent, yes, but even with that talent he had to train and train for years. And even after all those years of training he couldn’t beat his brother

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>Cap consistently trains
As much as any powered hero, he is the peak human that trains the least
Great bait op, this retarded board needs people like you, butyou seemed to have missed including Jiren in your team hardwork, he is like superman if superman was an alien

Superman is an alien

>korra: works for a decade in a shitty ice tent to master a mere 3 elements
>aang: already mastered one element, masters 3 elements and then somehow deus ex machina bending in a year

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>if superman was an alien

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>captain america gets injected with super serum
>goku is a part of a powerful race of super aliens exactly like superman
>sasuke lost his entire family and trained just as hard if not harder than every other character in Naruto without having a powerful monster inside his body
>Iron Man built his suit himself while Batman bought everything he has
>OP put no effort into this chart but is raking in (you)s so he belongs in the natural talent branch

>Lalala Laaaa!

Stark is Hardwork.
Metal suit =/= natural talent
>Remove the suit and what are you?

Stark toils over ideas, run into failures, comes up with better ideas each time. Deals with the depths of PTSD by designing and building version after version of suits, some for esoteric applications or against specific threats.

Sets up scholarships at his alma mater and other schools to promote bold studies similar to what he had to do to follow in the R&D work he pursued with his father.

>if superman was an alien
>if

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>2019
>Yea Forums still doesn't get the fucking joke

/this
Sausage is a hard trainer

>Batman bought everything he has

The movies are a meme, Bruce creates most of his own tech and maintains it himself. He does however buy the materials

>korra
>spent a decade mastering 3 elements
She spent training a decade, not mastering them. She already had mastered them at birth. Aang on the other hand had no choice but to work hard for the whole year.

>She already had mastered them at birth
That isn't what "mastered" means, retard

>She spent training a decade, not mastering them. She already had mastered them at birth.
user you should really reread posts before submitting them.

>goku has has alien DNA that makes him significantly stronger from fighting

Goku is team silver spoon

Lee is a better example

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Did you even watch the show? She never struggled with the three elements given to her.

That isn't what "mastered" means, retard

Most Street fighter characters are hard work except most shotos and shadoloos

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Because she spent 13 years honing her skills under the tutelage of masters. The teeny bit of bending she did as a three-year-old is not mastery, it's actual baby steps.
Meanwhile Aang was at least mid-level in all four elements within the span of less than a year, even to the point that he could use Toph's seismic sense in what is supposed to be the most difficult element for him. Hell he was even shooting large fire blasts from his hands after only a few breathing sessions with Jeong Jeong.
Aang was more prodigious than Korra is.

How is Ultra Instinct not hard work? Anyone can theoretically use it if they train hard enough and have the mindset for it, Beerus, Roshi, and Whis have it, it’s not a sayian only technique.
>Vegeta works way harder than Goku yet he is the jobber.
Does he? He cries more sure, but both train in places with high gravity, Goku with King Kai and Vegeta with Bulma’s gravity chamber.

because you appreciate the sacrifices the hard worker does while the talented one seems to bend reality around then.

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>Captain "Super Serum" America
>Hardwork

>Po
>not working hard

>How is Ultra Instinct not hard work?
Because it's not.
>Does he?
Read/watch Dragon Ball

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Tony Stark is gifted, an engineering genius. But he wasn't born Iron Man - he made himself Iron Man.

he's lazy when you consider a snake and a mantis was able to do shifu's traditional training while his has to be tailor made for him. by comparison Rufus is Po but he still did the work (Kung-Fu fan but still trained under various masters but developed his own style later on). the later movies just complicates things with destiny and lineage thrown into the mix.

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wasn't he holding back? he could've gone SS3 if he wanted to.

It's the old nature versus nurture debate, OP.

Should people try to become who they want to be? Or should they just embrace who they're meant to be? Or is some kind of compromise between the two positions the right answer?

Without characters who work hard, we would never have montages:

youtube.com/watch?v=pFrMLRQIT_k

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Aang was more spiritual. His ability to speak to his past lives and consult with Roku and the others have him a lot of insight. Korra's connection to the previous Avatars was severed and she had to rely more on advice from her dumbass friends who didn't even have their own lives worked out and who were probably a terrible source of information.

Exactly. No matter what Vegeta wasn't able to do that. Goku is more gifted. Natural talent.

more of some people forget about that when they do win-loss columns for goku vs vegeta (they give majin vegeta the win).

>Legs crushed by Chad Kasekage
Lol

>Batman
>falls into gazillions of dollars
>inherits a tech company literally centuries ahead of modern civilization
>got a free in with Rash because he tickled his pedo heart just right

Superman's hard work is lowering his power level enough so that he doesn't accidentally level a city when he has to pass gas. There's a lot of effort that goes into making sure you don't break shit just by existing when you have his lever of strength.

One is a story and one is an excuse

What a victory

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You posted two anime characters, so I'm using this opportunity to shill Teppu.

Teppu is the best exploration of this trope I've ever seen. The main character Natsuo is an athletic genius that can easily master any sport with a minimal amount of effort, and everyone hates her for it. Most of them blame her apathetic attitude, but her attitude is really just a reaction to all the hatred and jealousy she receives. In a normal fighting manga, Natsuo would be the antagonist to the bright plucky underdog hero that works hard and does her best, but in Teppu, the roles are reversed. The plucky underdog becomes Natsuo's first actual reason to work hard, because she's never wanted anything more in her whole life than to beat this stupid girl's face into a bloody pulp.

Its a story about the envy and isolation of god-given talent, and how an imperfect teenage girl would realistically deal with it.

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>a desperatefag attempt to "win" at something
*yawn*

Why do people forget that Batman has been without his tech and money before and still kicks ass?

Goku was born with a low power level and received no training until he was 10, and even then he was no better than Krillin.

Kek

This is peak kino

>actually believing this
youtu.be/SRp7bKggRb8

Curious. I get the point, but I never felt any sort of sympathy for Natsuo.

But that's exactly the message.

>Yeah because Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct were hardwork, right?
Yes, only through a shitload of hardwork you can attain those. He spends his whole life training.

There is nothing hard working about Captain America. Everything that is he is acquired from a special enhancement that he received. Which granted him peak conditioning and increased his intelligence to the point that he can master any skill easily compare to your average man.

>Goku
>Worked hard
>Aang
>NOT naturally gifted
Retard...

>so much more better

Your opinions do not count. Any thought you wish to share, must come with the knowledge that everyone who reads it knows you are a moron.

>only through a shitload of hardwork you can attain those
You don't need training for SS and UI. They just require certain mind state.

Goku isn't a natural talent. He is just slightly more talented than Vegeta. The only natural talents in Dragonball U7 are Gohan, Broly and Frieza.

Cap took fucking drugs to get that strong

Goku needed magic water and a fucking god ritual

t. never trained, doesn't understand the value of training, never gonna make it

>goten, trunks, U6 saiyan

>He has his brothers eyes with him
>He has sage chakra from Juugo
>He’s got rinnegan and Rikudo chakra from The Sage of Six Paths

>Aang
>not gifted
There is literally an episode devoted to showing how much better than Kataea Aang is at water bending

You mean when he already trained with Ras n shit?

So has Superman, without his powers.

He isnt a saiyan you fucking retard

Lucius Fox makes most of Batman's tech. Bruce just repurpose it with a different design afterwards.

Goku always trains despite having that zenkai boost from his sayian genes. Anyone saying he doesn't belong in Team Hard Work doesn't get how that universe works never mind the character himself.

It’s not just Zenkai boosts. Toriyama even stated that he only became a Super Saiyan thanks to the S-Cells in his system.

Not to mention the outside influence with the Mystical Water and the God Ritual mixing with that shit.

>Roshi
>Ultra Instinct
Except for the fact that he can't use it. Toyotarou is just a hack that loves to retcon previous established materials. Would make a great Wonder Woman writer.

Explain fucking Goten. Or why Gohan has better potential than his Father...

>Goku is the poster boy for hardwork
It is also a poster boy for being unnatural strong, especially in the original series

>Cap consistently trains to stay at peak perfection
And Tony constantly studies, so...?

>Sasuke being a genius
Sasuke trained constantly to reach his peak, he is still a character that i hate and doesn't lack ass-pulls, but he trained to become good

UI requires your body and mind to be in harmony with each other. Its not something that you can randomly acquire. Its obtainable only via training.

SSJ can be unlocked without any training. Just require some sort of emotional trauma.

>Its not something that you can randomly acquire
That is what happened in the anime. Post ToP Goku can't use UI.

Itachi was fucking KINO

Goku IS team hard work. It's very telling how his opponents in DBZ were mainly people who didn't have to work to achieve what they did. Frieza always just kind of was "the strongest in the universe" (at the point of his saga), he didn't work to become one. Cell was literally just stealing other people's power and experience. Majin Buu was literally an ancient eldritch abomination born into his powers. And even Vegeta was a prince, as opposed to Goku being a peasant (though obviously he still had to work, which I think is a part of a reason why he's redeemed and the other three are not).

Whis was already training Goku and Vegeta to potentially unlock Ultra Instinct. His training regime for them is the same training that Beerus underwent despite the fact that neither desire to become a God of Destruction. Goku and Vegeta received God of Destruction training, which includes Ultra Instinct training since that is required for God of Destructions.

>if you ignore DB where Goku was a monster compared to pretty much everyone else, then goku is team hardwork!

>And Tony constantly studies, so...?
Tony has always been shown as being a natural genius and a child prodigy which isn't honestly a bad thing. Some people absorb information and learn quickly without the need to study that much.

He fought to earn the chance to be a candidate for the serum and even if he hadn't gotten the serum he would have dragged his skinny ass to war. Also all those times he lost the serum he still was a master fighter.

>he is like superman if superman was an alien
Jesus christ this is a new level of fucking casual, even my grandma who knows shit about capeshit knows Superman is an alien.

But Freeza and Buu were redeemed. The only reason Cell isn't back is because he isn't popular.

>another retard not getting it

Goku was only a monster compared to Earthlings because Saiyans were naturally more powerful. Compared to the average Saiyans, Goku would just be average. He only became powerful as he did due to hardwork. Granted he is more talented than Vegeta but that doesn't mean much. Especially since it took that decades just to reach their current level of power. And only acquired it because they received training from a multiversal Angel.

People like Frieza only trained about 4 months to acquire the same level that Goku and Vegeta spend decades to achieve. Gohan is said to have higher potential than Goku and Vegeta. And is already at SSB level despite being inactive for years and only started training again recently. Broly is more powerful than Goku and Vegeta despite having vastly inferior teachers than Goku and Vegeta.

I guess it's mostly because Sasuke was propped up as a natural genius by the narrative as an opposite to Naruto's hard work, even though they both required roughly equal talent and hard work to get where they are.
It's really the author trying to cobble something cohesive out of the wreck that was Naruto's themes.

Ftfy

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>Aang and UI goku still in team hardwork

>Stark
>not "Team Hard Work"

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>Especially since it took that decades just to reach their current level of power
Yeah but If you think about it, Goku went for 400 power level to 150M in less than 6 months. From being weaker than Raddits to beat the Emperor of the universe. And a big part of that was the Zenkai.

Naruto took more time to get from where he was, compared to Sasuke I guess. All of that was thrown out the window once Sasuke got Itachi’s eyes and Naruto got to use Kyuubi chakra frequently.

It was supposed to be Natural Talent Vs Hardworking. Exemplified how Naruto never truly knew how to properly make a rasengan in part 1, but found out how it worked and simply found his own way to do it instead.

It should have been Natural Talent Vs Ingenuity. Naruto shines more when he surprises you and finds a unconventional solution to a seemingly impossible problem (N and S Vs Zabuza, comes to mind). Rock Lee works better as a poster boy of hard work than Naruto or Sasuke.

They require a shitload of hardowork AND certain mind state. It costed Gohan and Vegeta blood and sweat to attain SS even after knowing it was real. UI requires the peak of training, it is the ultimate technique only attainable by those who trained to ridiculous levels, both mentally and physically.
Goten and Trunks aquired SS because a) retcon and b) their moms got fucked by SS.
On DBS the new saiyans were already trained and strong af, plus their genetic is different.

>their moms got fucked by SS.
That isn't how genetics work

They worked hard AF to get there, why wouldn't they be there. You probably need to rewatch their series.

Tell that to Toei.

>what it took Katara months of training Aang did it in seconds
>HE WORKED HARD REEEEE

>batman
>hardwork

he's as bullshit as superman, even more so

Batman's bullshit is because trained himself extensively just to be where he is today. He didn't take any shortcuts and wasn't naturally gifted. He had to earn it through hard work and sweat.

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Once again, movies are a meme. Bruce has genius level intellect and has created most of his own tech. Some of it is repurposed from Wayne industries but the bulk is his own make and design

How the fuck is Aang team hardwork? The dude just inherited all of his previous reincarnations abilities. Also Cap was given a super serum.

Aang literally had to train to master all 4 elements

Sasuke has literal eye hax that became even stronger at the end of the series. He's handed every power up he gets in the series on a silver platter

Move Goku and Aang to team asspull. Change Superman to team "I work hard but not really"

Read some Batman comics why don't you. Lucius Fox creates most of his tech in the comics too. The Beyond armor proto-type is a Lucius Fox creation. Several other tech too.

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Naruto devolved as it got older. I really miss how it was in the start where the characters beat their opponents by outsmarting them instead of the DBZ lite shit it devolved into

>Sasuke
>Literally trained for years

>posts a comic made after the Nolan movies

In the BB cartoon Bruce even says he invented and programmed the suit. Its the movies ruining shit that was already established

Training that was mostly playing around. Like, he became a water bender without trying.

Vegeta’s training is retarded, it’s just self flagellation. Goku actually learns from others and refines techniques.

Tony fits into both Team Hardwork and Team Natural Talent, though. He gets natural talent through his intellect but everything else he does (maintaining and upgrading the armor, inventing stuff for other heroes, etc) is all hardwork. He has to put in a lot more time than others do and there's people like Reed who are still leagues above Tony in the intelligence department.

Hi I'm what hard work actually looks like. This shit's for the birds.

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Goku and Aang worked hard to improve their natural talent.
Goku might be from a race both inclined to violence and probably has some weird genetic aberration that makes him better suited to going Saiyan or some gay shit BUT he also did shit like running across an entire mountain range on his hands, training with Korrin, and all that shit to improve his skills. Same with Aang being a natural Airbender still had to physically and mentally struggle to improve what he already had an innate understanding of.

Saiyans literally grow things that can do that. In the cosmic scene, kid Goku was nothing

>worked hard to improve their natural talent.
So did it Superman, Korra and Sasuke.

Yeah. OP is a fag.

Here's all the advantages Saiyans get over humans
>Higher Power Levels at birth.
>A transformation chain thatlets them multiply their powers by x50x2x4
>A ritual that lets them get to God level instantly
>Ability to grow stronger after getting their

If you're still gonna say "he trained to improve his natural talents" then so did Sasuke, Iron Man and even Captain America (who had to get 'roids to even start training) and Superman (who trains to hold himself back so as not to break anything)

You forgot the big ape form

40% Of what Goku does is training, 50% is fighting, 10% is eating. He trains the same as the ones in hardwork team or more. Even if you are biased against the character I can't move it beyond. Aang whole journey i about learning/trainig, can't move him either.
Superman has only trained for like 2 comic pages in over 50 years. He's the quintessential definition of pulling powers out of the ass.

>the character with a constant, well explained powerset is the "definition of pulling powers out of the ass"
>the character that is always getting new forms, new powers and new bullshit isn't

>wasn't naturally gifted
>be born a supergenius billionaire
>use the money and superintelligence to be ale to master almost everything there is to master, from sciences to martial arts, and use the resources he inherited to build supertech that are as bullshit as any magical power

yeah, nice hardwork there

There are no successful 'hard work' characters who aren't secretely using an inherent genetic advantage to pull ahead of their peers.
When you do have those characters you get guys like Tien and Rock Lee who started strong and quickly became total jobbers.

>There are no successful 'hard work' characters who aren't secretely using an inherent genetic advantage to pull ahead of their peers.
*blocks your path*

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Watching someone overcome challenges through great effort speaks to humanity on a basic level that we can all relate to.

It's a basic convention of writing a good protagonist is that they will always be more respected for their struggle towards an accomplishment rather than the accomplishment itself. It's why the underdog trope is so universally popular.

Characters who are powerful with out any effort to get to that strength or just overwhelmingly competent feel hollow in their victories. That's why Superman and Batman are at their most interesting when they're faced by something they can't overcome within the scope of their talents.

Goku only does two three things in DBZ. Train, eat, and fight. The show is about people that love to fight. Goku gets results which for whatever reason makes people think he doesn't work hard.

Clark worked hard to also explore how powerful he was, and what was he capable of doing. The chart really under sells how much Clark struggled to control and manipulate his powers.

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>gets SSJ because of genetics (S-Cells)
>gets Zenkai because of Genetics
>gets God Ki because of rituals
>gets magic amp thanks to Korin
>asspulls new Transformations on the fly

>the character that is always getting new forms, new powers and new bullshit isn't
that somehow invalidates the fact that he trains everyday and works his ass off since childhood to become stronger

there should be a "born more powerfull then everyone around me but then has to do hard work even if it doesn´t feel like much"

isn´t this prime ?

>super intelligence
????

>be able to master almost everything there is to master from science to martial arts training for 2+ decades
>this somehow isn't hard work
good one user

Goku trained ONE week to fight Freeza. ONE. The rest was pure Zenkai. It's the same with the rest of Z. He didn't train that much. Damn, the point of late Cell arc was that just training was pointless.

this is fine, actually

Goku genes made him work hard.

He literally made to fight.

Based Superchad.

>wasn't naturally gifted
Kek.

>He's handed every power up he gets in the series on a silver platter
Not every power-ups, just the ones that come after the duel with Itachi

People tends to only remeber shippuden, don't know why.

Kek

Have you ever watched Dragonball?
When Goku isn't in the shit, he's training

>sasuke
That cheating ass motherfucker that either inherited his moves through blood or copied them with his blood inherited moves. Itachi gave him half the mangekyo shit. He ripped off Lee's taijutsu. He is the apart the jesus twins of prophecy. 'the only things he trained was fire jutsu and kirin. The snake summons were basically an orochimaru gift.

Goku gets power-ups from ass beatings thanks to his Saiyan genetics. He's also literally a Superman rip-off.
Cap was a manlet until he juiced.
Aang is a god incarnate.

This graphic is retarded

Actual hard work superheroes:
Daredevil
Iron Fist
Shangchi
Moon Knight

Kek

It kinda is. Goku and Vegeta were going SS for a while when they conceived Goten and Trunks so naturally those biological traits just rubbed off on the fetus.

It’s like how two /fit/ parents are more naturally inclined to produce a healthy child than two lazy fat fucks.

>Superman
>Constant well explained power set

Going SS doesn't change the number of S-cells in your body.

>S-Cells

Non-Canon Toriyama retcon bullshit

>Superman doesn't work hard
You're retarded
>Batman works hard
Ditto
>Cap
Yeah no.

No

Goku first learned from his grandfather how to fight, who instilled in him a strong training ethic.
Goku was far below Master Roshi and had to train to be able to take on the folks in the Tournament (and still lost).
Goku got bodied by Tao hard and had to train with Korin to get stronger.
Goku got the shit beaten out of him by King Piccolo and had to get stronger to beat him.
Goku trained for years to be able to face Piccolo Jr, who also trained for years to be able to face Goku.

Goku worked hard for his strength in Dragon Ball. He literally had some of the best people on the planet training him, from 300 year old hermits to literally god. And even then he still trained on his own. Goku is the EMBODIMENT of team hard work.

>he says, spouting 20 year old headcanon that is literally the exact same thing
S-Cells work exactly like this "they were super saiyan when they fucked them" shit you were pulling.
Fucking hell Trunks was born before Vegeta became a Super Saiyan anyway you idiot.

you talking shit about the man of steel?

Sasuke wasn't overly naturally talented though, he sucked as a kid despite training really hard and Naruto simply sucked worse as a kid because he rarely trained, refused to study and had no parental guidance. Sure you can obviously make a case for latter Sasuke being stupidly OP and overly talented but early Sasuke was definitely a hard worker. Itachi was the natural born genius who was just good at everything from birth and was stated to have a fucking hokage's wisdom at age 6 and got skipped ahead multiple grades and was put in ANBU at 12. Sasuke was slightly above average and a hardworker until he started getting his sharingan asspulls.

Also how the fuck is Cap on team hardwork? Goku was a shit example too since he's a massive blend of both.