Honest thoughts on Stan Lee?

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Basically this. Never cared about him but him not being able to admit that Ditko basically gave Spidey his iconic look which would basically contribute to what the character is today is just pathetic
>only have an idea
>someone else writes the story and designs the character
>you basically try and take all the credit for yourself
That sounds like a rotten human being to be honest

A creative genius. Certainly not the only one working at Marvel over the years, and he might have taken more credit that he had earned when the public offered it to him, but it's definitely true that comic books and media in general today would be very different without him.

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It wasn't that clear and he only ever denied co-creator credit to his co-creators. People shit on him because he was a company man, and even though I disagree with them, he had his reasons.
No one mentions Kirby screwing over Joe Simon or Ditko and Romita writing shit stuff to keep Carl Burgos and Bill Everett away from the Submariner and Human Torch.
These men grew up in a very rough reality and in a very ungrateful business, whatever they could do to secure a few extra dollars, they went and did.

Testament to persistence and never giving up on yourself. Took too much credit where he probably shouldn't have, but measuring Ditko and Kirby's success afterward shows his contributions were far from negligible.

>It wasn't that clear and he only ever denied co-creator credit to his co-creators.
I mean the guy literally wrote and signed a letter to Ditko confirming that he was co-creator of Spider-Man, which Ditko rejected because he wanted to be acknowledged as sole creator.

He doesn't try to take all the credit, he just tries to promote himself as much as possible and overstates his input. Big difference.

He's willing to credit the others as helping him, but you would never catch him saying they had equal or greater importance because it would lessen his value. He also gave people worse deals than he should have and rarely tried to help fellow creators in even basic ways despite his wealth. Stan didn't really do anything wrong so much as fail to act where a decent person would have.

youtube.com/watch?v=1iFV1HdO2pQ

Well, denying co-creator credit to a co-creator is the definition of being a piece of shit human being
Obviously, he was a good business man, that's a given. I hate that people like him are being praised though because it only shows that history is basically written by the victors. The other guys being assholes doesn't excuse that kind of behaviour if you ask me

He was a writer at fourteen, editor by fifteen and owned the company at twenty-two; when his uncle snuffed it and handed him the company. The company went bust that same year and Kirby did him a solid by sticking around, helping Stan put Marvel back together again. Stan then took all the credit for Kirby's hard work.
Never do a solid for someone who hasn't yet done anything for themselves.

Not a thought on Lee but it’s highly annoying how people assume he created every Marvel character, even the actors themselves think this.

People ignore those things becAuse they weren't filthy stinking rich. It took Stan a while to get there, but unlike the other two there was a point where he could reasonably stop or make amends.

Also for everything fucking stupid and stubborn about Ditko, he would have been acknowledged as sole creator if it was anywhere but Marvel. Stan's role was as an editor, and they never get creator credit even if they pitch the concept.

I hope in the future people think Stan Lee created Batman and Superman, essentially memory-holing Finger, Kane, Schuster and Siegel.

There are already a non-trivial number of people who think this.

Satan bless casuals.

The only reason people hate on him so much is because either they worship Alan Moore or they're edgy contrarians and see him as the 'normie' side of comics and their derivative properties. Without him superheroes probably wouldn't exist today, he was a great asset to the genre both creatively and from a business standpoint.

And his reluctance to outright claim Ditko was a co-creator has legal implications, as far as I know. He never shied away from giving Ditko (or Kirby or Bill Everett or anyone that I know of) for writing full issues while he was busy with editorial shit.
Truth is, if he wasn't related to Martin Goodman, he would have gotten a lot less flack. Both Roy Thomas and Len Wein have gon on record to say Stan was doing the best he could to help creators with the managerial side, but the managerial side didn't have any reason to budge.
Fucking Kitchen Sink had an anthology published through Marvel and Stan was the guy who went after Denis Kitchen to make it work, and there's lots of interviews, letters and shit where he expresses his distaste with a lot of Marvel's management decision over the years.
But he never denied co-creator credits to anyone, he denied full creator credits, and whenever he'd talk about that credit, he clearly dances around the question because there were legal implications to whatever shit he said, so he clearly defaulted to a standard "yeah they were co-creators but the idea was mine" some time in the 70s and even then you can always find, for instance, him claiming the Surfer was 100% Kirby's creation and shit like that.
Again, Stan tried to make as much amends as he could, but he was also terrified of something like the Kefauver Hearings happening again and fucking the whole market over, so he tried to make his own retirement plan on the side, and the other company men who let themselves be dragged along the way, like Romita, Buscema and even Gil Kane (up to a point), got quite some money out of Marvel in the end.

He signed a letter saying he considers him co-creator when Ditko asked him to.

Had the pleasure of meeting Stan Lee at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth, and VERY funny.

Exactly, Stan lee was definitely important, just not as important as everyone believes.

If he wasn't in the cameo roles no one outside of hardcore readers would give a shit when he died.

What do you mean in future? That happens now.

Why do you think he did them..

We understand he wasn't a monster, user. The criticism is that he did less than he could and should have, and we only have this feeling because he used marketing that rode on his co-creators' backs to get rich in the first place. He deserves criticism and less reverence, but not contempt.

Because his careers/managers had a stranglehold on him?

Him, kirby and ditko are the reason why marvel will always have more success than dc

>Because he likes money and attention.
Fixed.
The last few years were probably what you said, though.

Thieving jew who did little to nothing but will be remembered by the mass majority of people who have never read a comic in their live as the penultimate comic writer. Sadly those are the mass majority of people.

He did everything to not lose his place. Stan Lee was NEVER at a managerial position at Marvel, he was always a charismatic face, and what little register we have shows he tried to defend the other guys.
Also, fucking bullshit "we understand he wasn't a monster", people are so fucking twisted in ther perception of Lee (either for good or bad) that I actually went and memorized all the facts that get ignored in this whole situation. Had Jack Kirby accepted the same position John Romita did, he would have gotten just as rich, for instance.
This whole shitshow was caused by a bunch of suits, and the only reason you think of Lee as one of those suits is because he was related to Martin Goodman, the original owner of Marvel.

Based.

I hate how Kirby hardcore fans demonize the guy so much. Jesus, Krby was a bitter fuck and Stan did legit apologize and reach out to him many times. Funny thing is that anytime Stan would directly confront him about their issues he would pretend that he wasn't mad and act like they made peace, and then immediatly turn around and shit on him again.

Stan'boxes were gold

Excelsior!

yes?

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I don't even understand the anti-semetism anglebecause fuck, Kyrby was jewish too you moron. Tons of comic artists were. What, are people jewish only when it's convenient for you to hate them?

>What, are people jewish only when it's convenient for you to hate them?
Where do you think you are

Too Jewish

>He dindu nuffin
Oh fuck off. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone in positions like Lee have decisions that cam be criticized within reason. You're jumping to the opposite end of the spectrum instead of being rational.

I'm not even saying he dindu noffin, only that those things people accuse him of doing were always out of his sphere, and he tried to influence them, but if you know guys like Max Gaines, Weisinger, Goodman and so on, you'll realize how not even Bob fucking Kane was that big a crook, just egomaniacal.

It's just standard secret knowledge fallacy shit.
>Normal people think he's hot shit but _I_ know the "truth" (i.e. the version of the truth that I enjoyed hearing and bought into immediately without any backing facts and I refuse to hear any arguments from the indoctrinated sheep).

so what your saying is that everything that happened to him later in life was retribution of sorts.

Actually he was a writer at 17, editor of the line at 18, and he never owned the company. Martin Goodman sold out to Cadence Industries in the late 60s. Stan was ALWAYS an employee.

As for the "solid" Jack Kirby did him, Marvel was the only place that would hire him after Jack Schiff at DC blackballed him. His newspaper strip had expired, his deal with Archie had fallen through and no one else would touch him. Stan hired him because Joe Maneely had died, and he needed someone he could trust to produce fast and imaginative. And together they made magic.

Kirby may have designed 95% of the tricks, but Stan was the magician presenting them to the audience and making them love it.

He's literally fucking dead and spent the last years of his life being manipulated and abused by a bunch of assholes to the point of literally stealing his blood. I mean, haven't we given him enough shit already?

Jack always held a grudge against Stan, dating back to 1942 when he assumed Stan had ratted him and Joe Simon out to Goodman about their impending jump to DC (after Goodman had screwed them out of the profits on Captain America). Joe never believed it, but Jack wouldn't budge. He only worked for Marvel later when he needed a check.

Again, both men's faults can be excused by their personal history. At that point, both Lee and Kirby had seen their living threatened at least twice, once after capes died and twice when the entire industry almost died. Not to mention, both grew up during the depression. Kirby did like a week of art school and then had to drop out because his dad croaked and he had to help raise like 5 brothers, and by his kids' (and everyone else close to him) accounts, his main goal was to make sure they never went through what he did.
It was all about churning out those books and keeping the bread on the table, and they'd do whatever it took for it, but the somewhat overlooked part is that both either were fans from the beginning or eventually grew to respect and realize how much comic books could be.
There's a great Kirby quote in Evanier's bio about the first SDCC, where he said something like "people ignore this by now, but in the future, this is where Hollywood will come to sell last year's movies, announce this year's and buy next year's movies" back in 1974 (?I think, not checking that out right now).

He really can't be replicated.

kirby wrote and drew all the stories, lee just mashed some dialogue in

Boi you got it

This

Dont talk shit about stan

Nice meme

This basically.

Legit

I think that magician and guy who designs the tricks analogy is really good

He needs to stop doing his quickening shit already. It was a good run, Stan.

he was a damn fine grifter and liar.

shitty human being, friend and co worker.

he fucking perjured himself to help keep a huge corp from having to return characters his friends who were sick and could have used the money from regaining control of them as the copyright laws wanted from regaining control of them. he helped them dodge a court order stating they were to return jack kirby's property so someone else could fucking use it as free cutting boards. spiteful dick.

Not that user but it's true to a certain extent, and not just Kirby. The Marvel Method faciliitated that. There's a short story by Colan that basically has him ask Lee to try actually writing past the outline. It's in DD Annual #1.
I think he was fine, but the media machine hypes him up too much compared to other creators he worked with. I don't exactly hold him responsible for that entirely. Really, my only issue is how he handled Silver Surfer's first solo by getting Buscema to come onto it instead. There's some good stuff but Kirby should have been the one. I'd have liked to see his plans, or what he came up with. The actual series is a mixed bag.
Isn't Simon quoted as saying he suspected Lee on his Wiki page?

>he fucking perjured himself to help keep a huge corp from having to return characters his friends who were sick, etc
This on the other hand, would make me rethink my "he was fine" point

Same as my thoughts on Ledger
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I liked the guy.
Never met him though.

Pretty cool dude.

a cool nigga,great WRITTER and a dAMN GOOD SALESMAN

kike rat

>anti-semitism buzz word
Christ is coming menorah lover.

>that time stan wanted to put "best comic of all time (voted by stan lee and steve ditko)" in the credits for Doctor Strange, but Steve said he hadn't voted on anything so it became "(voted by baron mordo and stan lee)"

Good businessman. Pretty good writer. I hated his narration style when I was first getting into comics but nowadays I find it gives it some charm. It was a lot harder to figure out how to interpret the panels into action, at least for me, until I started thinking up sound effects for the fights.

>/ourautist/

Didn't have the chance to talk to him that much but he seemed like a decent chap. His work on Fantastic Four and ASM are personal favorites of mine.

The man did a stellar job selling himself. That said his impact on the industry is immeasurable and he deserved success.

How much do you think he hated Steve?

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>"The one appeared again as a middle aged man"
>Look at the coments

I secretly hoped he'd outlive me.

just some old rich guy that stole a bunch of ideas and gave zero fucks about the consequences and was handsomely rewarded for doing so, iirc

He definitely leaved a history on the comics industry, but his work nowadays are too overrated.

Worst cameo? FF2