These guys were once the most popular Marvel brand, rivaled only by Spider-man

What happened?

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the movies were SHIT

Retarded retcons, turning the books basically into Wolverine and Friends, constantly flip-flopping allegiances, heavy-handed "muh oppression story" bullshit and doing things that could only work for a sustained period if these guys existed only in their own universe.

About a decade of incestous storytelling involving copious self-reference and attempts to mimic the Claremont and Lee eras among the main titles that was pushed by both writers, editorial, and a subset of the fandom, ultimately resulting in continuity lockout for new readers.

X-man have more ongoing comics then Spider-people.X-man are the biggest in size comic brand.

Fox

Never were able to get past the Claremont era. Too good and idiosyncratic. The movies didn't help. They were fine for the era but looking back were an example of Hollywood neutering the material, making it bland.

>What happened?
Claremont left.

Fox, and Ike ordering de-emphasis of X-Men stuff when Fox wasn't playing ball, plus focus on Marvel Studios stuff (which includes Avengers).

More than Fox, the Marvel Studios success meant that they had their own properties to hype hence no reason to publish them in the main crossovers.

then this they are still the "batman family" of Marvel tons of books and team books have them.

X-Fags can’t admit the stories suck and they only like the concept

There is a ton of great X-stories though

fpbp

also this

More like a handful that get recycled

No vision(aries) in what 15 years or more? Bad editing and just Marvel relying on the Avengers mega line for a decade at mutie peril.

Name 2

bryan singer

You first

Too many to name from Claremont's run, Morrison's New X-Men

So, you have no real answer. Knew it.

focusing on boring jean, scott, and emma killed it, along with jim lee/rob liefeld edgy meme characters like deadpool, gambit, cable, psylocke, bishop.
the thing that really killed it was firing claremont.
the core charcters shouldve always been wolverine, storm, colossus, nightcrawler, and kitty with a revolving 2nd-tier.

M'Krann crystal saga, here comes tomorrow

this.
First class and X-Man 2 were good though.

Despite any of the flaws of the post-Claremont 1990s, the X-Men were unquestionably Marvel's most popular brand of the time. The Morrison/Casey era of the books moved away from a popular formula that worked and attempted to reinvent the franchise, but chased away more readers than it brought in. The comics have never recovered that position as Marvel's most popular books. Marvel still publish more X-books than anything else, with no good reason to do so, even now when they're all outsold by Venom, Hulk, Fantastic Four and by a Spider-Man PS4 game tie-in comic.

>the core charcters shouldve always been wolverine, storm, colossus, nightcrawler, and kitty
That's not what Claremont was going for, though

>Gambit, Cable
Outside of their designs and initial appearences they weren't edgy at all

>That's not what Claremont was going for, though

Claremont was never ever ever going to get the cast to change completely and have several different generations of X-Men. He didn't own the franchise, and Marvel were never going to let him permanently kill or retire all the popular characters to replace them with OCs, and they weren't going to let the characters age in real-time either.

Always confused when people dismiss the O5 characters as boring, then undermine their argument by saying Storm and Colossus aren't boring. Logan, Kurt and Kitty aren't that interesting these days either.

Grimdark bullshit like this happened.

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Circumstances... many of them...

Everybody loves Wolverine, he is a cool guy, he is a legend.

Cyclops is perfect from of view of the Yea Forums so they don't talk much about it (apparently they talk more about what they hate, but that isn't good).

Rogue is almost universally loved by Yea Forums but they don't love her last adventures. They like them but not so much.

Gambit hurt Yea Forums too many times and they prefer to kill and forget

Beast's endgame was something that people hated and apparently (I'm not sure) he says things annoying to people. His case is very complicated.

I don't know much about the other girl.

Seems like most of the characters that were fucking huge in the 90s sort of fell off somewhere in the mid to late 00's.

Venom was fucking huge too but then he just stopped existing by 08-ish.
Image comics were really popular too but then that fell apart and nobody cared about Spawn or Gen 13.

Anyone remember Taz being the most popular Loony Tunes character? Has Warner giving any kind of a shit about him since the late 90s?

Dab if you prefer the X-men to be in their own separate universe

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>get famous because it's about beautiful people in great costumes going on sci-fi adventures and being a family
>drop all that, then spend the next 2 decades or so doing heavy handed "muh razizm" shit sprinkled with cucking plotlines and rehashed plots, all existing in a cycle of repetition
Gee, I wonder.

Isn't that was made it super popular in the first place?

X-Men were the book that included all the cool edgy characters that smoked cigars, wore trenchcoats, and had lot of guns and talked about killing stuff all the time. Then every third page was a Lifefeld splash of Gambit or Psylocke striking a mid air pose. Fans loved that shit and considered every other Marvel team pathetic and uncool.

The passage of time and change of the sociopolitical climate happened.

Also stagnation to a degree.

I think the first big problem was that they were chasing after the X-Men film's success. And the big problem with that is the X-Men films are very watered down in retrospect. Back then it was understandable to make the argument that the X-Men had to be that way because the audience wouldn't accept it (because not many superhero films were successful), but a lot of stuff that came after proved you can do the fantasy stuff in superhero comics and make it work.

Claremont was forced out and kept getting replaced by pastiche writers and people who just didn't get how he made it work. Even Chris himself couldn't get lightning to strike again. But Marvel got that momentary sales boost from Jim Lee. That's all that mattered.

>the core charcters shouldve always been wolverine, storm, colossus, nightcrawler, and kitty with a revolving 2nd-tier.
I can't remember the last time Storm or Colossus were interesting or did something cool. And Kitty is awful, like the worst Marvel character ever. Even Kurt got some attention after his resurrection and it sucked.

>the core charcters shouldve always been wolverine, storm, colossus, nightcrawler, and kitty with a revolving 2nd-tier.
>boring jean, scott, and emma killed it
>edgy meme characters like deadpool, gambit, cable, psylocke

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>ctrl+f "Perlmutter"
>0 results
The fucking state of this board.

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>Venom was fucking huge too but then he just stopped existing by 08-ish.

Venom had one solo mini after another from 1993 to 1998, by which time sales had dropped and they were cancelled, and Marvel turned him back into a Spider-Man villain. By 2004, Marvel replaced Eddie Brock, with the Scorpion becoming the new Venom and appearing with the Thunderbolts, then the Dark Avengers. In 2010, Flash Thompson became the new Venom, this reinvigorated Venom as a hero. Since Eddie Brock became Venom again after more than a decade away, he's been one of Marvel's better selling books.

Didn't help that he was terrible when he came back.

>First class
When's the last time you've watched it? It's not good.

And before that, they were one of the least popular.
Popularity ebbs and flows. Once you have it, you aren't guaranteed to keep it.

>Kitty is awful, like the worst Marvel character ever.
She was fine as the audience surrogate character in places, she really paved the way for other debuting X-Men characters to get a lot of story focus. The issue is her self-righteousness almost always being treated as a positive in story.

The X-Men were in decline for years before Ike's Inhumans push. Half of the people in this thread are answering the wrong question, and discussing when the quality of the books declined, but the absolute peak of X-Men popularity and sales was in the 1990s after Claremont had already left.

Yea Forums may prefer the X-books of the 2000s, but they didn't have the same mass appeal to a wide audience.

I rest a lot of the blame squarely on Onslaught

Weren't the 90s peak popularity for Marvel comics period, until the collector market crash?
Pretty sure the causation is more on that than the actual content of the comics.
And yeah, even in relative terms they weren't all that hot in the 2000s, but during the 2010s there were times where the main X-Men title barely hit 30k, literally selling worse than Femthor 2 years after her gimmick got old.

Try "Ike"

The Inhumans push didn't even hurt them as badly as other factors like oh I don't know Phoenix literally swallowing Jean's characterization.

The 90s ended, Bryan Singer faggy FOX-Men, Grant Morrison doing Doom Patrol with them, House of M, Joe Quesada,l.

Editorial sabotage due to not having movie rights.

>What happened?

Disney happening
The stories you read in the 80s and 90s can not be told today by Disney
So art is rubbish and censorship is terrible
Leotards are banned too

thanks to this fucker here

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All I want is a decent lack of pants!

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Movies

90s was the best time in history for all
some editions of IMAGE comics were sold for millions of copies

You can't even blame Jean Grey for that, she was dead for the majority of the last 2 decades and the phoenix still keep appearing.

I miss when we bitched about Tom Rothman like informed people.

Unironically this, the reason why I bought X-Men comics in the 90s, just living my teen years.

Me too, and good artists and stories

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>90s was the best time in history for all
"No."
t. 90s kid,

>good stories
>Rulk
You're not fooling anyone.

I read the Onslaught TPBs recently and they aren’t that bad, there is some good moments but lead to awful stuff to the Avengers and F4.

I miss the 90s Marvel style, it was good for superheroes comics.

Oh, look at that
Psylocke showing legs, this will never happen again in my watch

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They still are though?

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It's fun

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No.

He has no say on comics, moviefag.

Onslaught is a divisive event story, but didn't really hurt X-Men sales or popularity.

Sales of all comics declined after the crash, but the X-books managed to stay on top throughout the 1990s. In the early 2000s, the main titles sold well, but sales were down on the rest of the line, and the Ultimate books were usually outselling them, and as time went on even the main books were lower and lower in the sales charts, until we reach the present day, where Marvel sells around 10 X-books a month despite most of them struggling to sell 30k. The sheer size of the franchise and the fandom meant it's been a long, slow decline, but it's been happening since long before Ike ever thought about replacing mutants with Inhumans.

Scott Lobdell killed them for me. Only way I'll pick up an X book now is if I see a creative team I really like but that hasn't happened very often.

A big part of the decline is that Marvel have forgotten why X-Men was so popular. The characters, the costumes, the art, the soap opera, the shipping, a waifu or husbando for all possible tastes, the action, the rogues gallery. Most of the audience were not reading because of The Metaphor, or persecution stories, but Marvel spent most of the last 20 years focusing on that, in denial of the real reasons why the books were popular.

This is probably right, trying to copy the success of the movies hurt the comics.

He mostly buried what was left after the book declined, people became bored with the movies, and interest was going down

>The characters, the costumes, the art, the soap opera, the shipping, a waifu or husbando for all possible tastes, the action, the rogues gallery.
Last X-book I read that did all this well was Exiles vol. 1. Well until Claremont came on board.

House of M killed off any forward momentum or direction the X-Men had because Quesada was autistic about there being too many mutants. Putting writers on the books that didn't really understand what made the X-Men work simply because they were big names (Brubaker, Bendis, Aaron, Lemire) and unlike Morrison none of them really had any sort of vision as to where the books should evolve. Constant flip-flopping status quos (they're on an island in San Francisco Bay, wait no now they're split, actually mutants are back but it's all new characters oh wait no they're going extinct again) until they got to the current "we don't even know what the fuck we're actually doing" books that we've had under White's editorship after Bendis and Aaron left. The characters getting sidelined because Marvel didn't have the film rights also didn't help anything.

It's not any one thing. It's 15 years of consistently terrible decision making stemming from House of M.

It is a mix of this and the fact that the X-books were the most varied and multicultural of all hero books for the longest time.

Almost every other hero team (especially Marvel) consists of the same mid 30's white guys from New York. And the personalities were usually down to stalwart hero, plucky teen, and genius scientist. But X stuff had people from all over Europe, Africa, South America, Asia, everywhere. People could read about a German guy, African girl, Chinese girl, and people from a lot of separate states so people had a more relatable time with them, or liked where they came from. Also they had a larger variety of type of people in hairy brawlers, inner city thieves, suburbanites, people from small villages, ex-gang members, honor students, just lots of different personalities.

marvel shot itself in the foot to deliberately spite fox.

Then again the massive escalation in the mid 90s did make a shitload of mutants.

Mutants were supposed to be a one in every hundred million at best. But then it turned into lots and lots of mutants enough to fill whole societies and countries after a while. Shit was getting ridiculous.

The Xmen are best when they are treated like a family. Not like fantastic four is a family but more along the lines of if your an xmen you are one of us. Xmen now just hate each other, usually for stupid reasons. I'm not even sure why there are xmen teams anymore.

Way too much "woe is me, the world hates us"
and not enough fun adventures with superpowers fighting bad guys

The Morlocks and Genosha increased the number of mutants back in the 1980s, the 1990s may have introduced more individual characters, but didn't really affect the global total number of mutants that much. Morrison changed everything, and it wasn't a natural forward movement, one issue there were hundreds of mutants, maybe a few thousand, the next issue there are millions.

Claremont was replaced by 90s focus on the stylized art of the era and increasingly ridiculous storylines, like many of the properties in the 90s.

However once the 90s were over the X-Men were a lot harder to reign back to less ridiculous storylines and in fact leant into them.

The Morrison and Whedon led attempts to reposition them were booster shots, but the property was heavily damaged both by the weaker other creatives and tying into company-wide events that fundamentally altered the X-Men.

They spiraled into ever-increasing massive critical extinction level dramas in order to maintain pace and relevance, to the point that after almost two decades of on-the-cusp storylines and massive status-quo shuffling to maintain the adrenaline levels the property is almost exhausted and has devolved into low-quality self-referencing and navel-gazing.

Stale stories, fucked up continuity and bloated rosters would harm any franchise. While Perlmutters feud with Fox did indeed hurt the mutants, it was already in decline. Marvel never lets any character truly progress anymore and often outright regresses characters in order to tell the same stories again. X-Men also became a major dumping ground for OCs who would then be killed off for a new generation of OCs.

Too bloated of a brand, too many X-books not many good X-teams, in recent years I liked New X-Men, X-Force the stabby crew, Morrisons X-Men, and a bit on Uncanny with Cyclops's revolution.

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Convolution

Since 1993 there's been "mutants are being killed by some big crisis" non-stop. Legacy Virus into House of M/Decimation into the Terrigen mess into whatever the fuck is killing them right now. You cannot have a franchise operating in crisis mode for so long

Could it also be because, more than any other comic book character, the X-men are strictly forbidden from coming anywhere close to their goal of improved inter-species relations?

Even though Spider-man and Batman can't keep their cities 100% free of crime, they can usually save at least one person per adventure. Meanwhile, no matter what the X-men do, a hundred mutant will be murdered every year on average.

And it's been like that for decades. Why would anyone want to get behind a book where the heroes can only achieve the hollow temporary victories?

Disney/the MCU happened

>You cannot have a franchise operating in crisis mode for so long
Heh.

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Every time I tried to follow X-men, my efforts were crushed by the sheer weight of its continuity. There are so many characters, plots, twists, retcons and changeups that it's just not possible for me to get a solid grasp on things

Wonder if there still audience for that?

What is the biggest comic book today that routinely doesn’t have issues going into “problematic” territory.

On one hand the switch could've been built up better in that it's a thing that could've had a catalyst and built itself up over Morrison's run. But the idea itself -- that the population was getting bigger and as a result developing its own culture and the ways (good and bad) that culture interacted with the dominant flatscan one -- was exactly the kind of evolution the X-Men needed if they wanted to keep the "mutants as a metaphor for minorities and social groups on the fringes of society" thing.

I mean books like X-Statix, NYX, District X or even Mystique or Academy X or concepts like X-Corp couldn't have really happened at any other time. The zeitgeist provided by that status quo allowed for people to think outside the box in terms of what could be done with a mutant book while still keeping it tied to the X-Men. Morrison clearly wasn't all too hot for the X-Men and I've never been the biggest fan of his actual run but the point of it is that the X-Men had been stuck in a creative rut of self-referential bullshit and needed to break free of it and start moving forward in new directions and on that he was 100% right. That's not to say everything was good but it's the last time where it felt like the X-Men as a line had any sense of cohesion, vision or energy.

And Quesada fucking ruined it because for as much as he helped revitalize Marvel with Jemas, once Jemas was gone he spent too much time tearing everything down. He did it to the X-Men, to the Avengers (Disassembled), to Spider-Man (OMD) and to the heroes as a whole (Civil War). Every one of his destructive policies left those lines and the comics in general weaker than before and I don't think any of them have ever truly recovered beyond maybe Spider-Man thanks to Spencer walking a lot of the last dozen years back.

>But the idea itself -- that the population was getting bigger and as a result developing its own culture and the ways (good and bad) that culture interacted with the dominant flatscan one -- was exactly the kind of evolution the X-Men needed if they wanted to keep the "mutants as a metaphor for minorities and social groups on the fringes of society" thing.
Wasn't that the same run where Morrison revealed the thing about parasites making flatscans anti-muties? How could he write both, what the fuck was he thinking?

They keep fucking and bringing back characters while having no idea what to do with them after doing the said event they brought then back with. It's a drowning man gasping for air while being tortured.

>But the idea itself -- that the population was getting bigger and as a result developing its own culture and the ways (good and bad) that culture interacted with the dominant flatscan one -- was exactly the kind of evolution the X-Men needed if they wanted to keep the "mutants as a metaphor for minorities and social groups on the fringes of society" thing.

And so Morrison pushed the franchise more towards social commentary and minority metaphor, and away from being as much of a superhero book as it had been. He moved it away from the reasons fans were actually buying the books. The metaphor went from being an additional layer to the stories, sometimes heavy-handed and obvious, sometimes completely absent, to being the only thing the books were about.

Nobody wants to talk about it, because the run itself is too popular, but in the long term, Morrison's run changed what the X-Men were on a fundamental level, and changed them into something that appealed to a much smaller audience than the books had before, and Marvel can't back out because any writer who says he's going to make it not about minorities as much is just going to get crucified on Twitter.

> That's not to say everything was good but it's the last time where it felt like the X-Men as a line had any sense of cohesion, vision or energy.

It was actually the point where any sense of the franchise having cohesion or a unified vision started to fall apart completely, editorial was hands-off, writers weren't talking to each other, didn't know what the others were doing, the continuity and lore was whatever the current writer said it was. The lower-tier books had more freedom to do whatever they wanted, but there was only one book that 'mattered' so sales dropped on all the others.

> I don't think any of them have ever truly recovered beyond maybe Spider-Man thanks to Spencer walking a lot of the last dozen years back.

Spider-Man and Venom are basically carrying Marvel's comic sales right now.

My advice for that is to pick a character you like, find a list of all their appearances by chronology and just follow them for as long as it holds your interest

Not storylines but
>X-Factor
>X-Statix

Days of Future Past and God Loves Man Kills

They gave it away to the non-Jews.

Which is sad considering Donny Cates Venom sucks.

Uncanny X-Men #94 - 200

Here and now, I promise you Yea Forums when I get on the X books, it'll be family funtime adventures, all the way.

No schisms, no X babies, no infinite crisis, no double cucking, and definitely no Jeans.

X-Men ended with Morrison

user if you can, please kill Psylocke. Also, kill all of Bendis OC too.

Claremont's run was just too long, too epic and too successful. No one could follow it. Everything since has just rehashed. Morrison had the right idea to go off in other directions but the editors and some fans got mad at him for it.

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Morrison also had some completely retarded ideas and introduced a bunch of elements through retcon rather than developing them in the story.

One of these days I'm going to write Goldballs versus Magic Boots Mel and it's gonna be glorious.

I'll trade you a cucking for keeping Maddie Pryor around.

Like I said, I'm not the biggest fan of his actual run because they're X-Men comics written by someone who is, at best, ambivalent towards the X-Men. But the status quo he provided was great and I wish it'd been allowed to continue and evolve instead of being done away with practically the moment he was gone.

There's stuff I'd want to do that involves the younger characters but it would fundamentally mean taking them away from the rest of the X-Men for reasons. Part of it is that the road trip arc from late '90s X-Force is one of my favorite storylines and my love for the Morrison era status quo. It's a dumb pipe dream though. I'll never write comics, never for Marvel and never in a position where I'd have the freedom to do the type of book I'd want to do.

>They actually had a road trip but it was with the time displaced O5
Just fucking kill me.

>Can't actually have Jean show initiative, so make Xavier telepathically warn her

>edgy meme characters like deadpool, gambit, cable, psylocke, bishop

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Rulk is entertaining as shit and was not trying to be anything more than that, if comics suck shit nowadays it's the fault of uptight highbrow nerds like you shitting on anything that is remotely fun

Do you understand how to read?

He's right about everyone but Psylocke

She's a little edgy. Not quite grim derp but definitely not above the stab stab

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In wrasslin terms, they were buried to make Avengers and any other character that didn't have their film rights with Fox at the time look strong.

You can't push them now because they're damaged goods.

Rulk was fun when he wasn't Ross.

"muh racism" was from the start of Claremont run

Morrison changed nothing, the only thing that left from his work is Emma's diamond form, everything else was retconned or ignored

I think Morrison was the first writer to show Xavier's Institute as an actual institute instead of some sort of mutie training camp.

Not actually until a few years in, around the early 1980s. In the 1980s and 1990s, it was like the pickle in the burger. In the 2000s and 2010s you get more pickle than burger, a lot of the time they just serve you pickles and there's no burger at all.

This was directly copying the movie.

Hw tried to change things but editorial and fans weren't happy with his changes. Remember Sublime?

>age of apocalypse
>age of onslaught

Sublime is a more rational explanation for global mutant hatred than racism. I maybe wrong but Claremont had a similar idea with Shadow King.

>Judd fucking Winick is an insurmountable quality benchmark

The X-men deserve to die

Yes, a sentient telepathic bacteria that infects all of humanity except for mutants causes people to hate mutants is a much more rational explanation than people being afraid of mutants because it's a bunch of people at their most emotionally unstable getting superpowers, the primary public face of mutants being a genocidal mutant supremacist, the other major public face of mutants being a reclusive PMC with ties to a frequently hostile alien government that keeps inviting the genocidal supremacist and his cronies to their ranks, or the massive shift in societal power dynamics created by the random appearance of superpowers within a population. Sublime is the worst thing to come out of Morrison's X-Men run, and that includes Cassandra Nova's backstory, and he goes against not only one of the core themes Grant set up but also against his one rationale for action.

I think the return of Jean killed it. I suspect it also made Claremont realise his stories were all able to be ruined by other writers after the fact and he just stopped giving as much of a shit.

Would explain his 2000s run.

It's way more rational than people in-universe praising Carol who is a half-fucking alien, Thor, Spider-man and Avengers in general but hating X-men. Your point would make sense if mutants were the only beings with superpowers tho.

And every thread Anons bring him up to handwave hack writing and Marvel's absolute refusal to do anything with the status quo beyond lynch mobs and extiction. Imagine all of the possibilities they refuse because every fucking X-men writer from comics, movies, cartoons and video games thinks that human/mutant relations should make Jim Crow South black/white race relations look like fucking kumbya because that's what they've been feed for the last 40+ years. Look at this shit, this is from an X-men comic from 2018, Christ every X-men story really IS the same

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>It's way more rational
It's not, it's your way to rationalize shit writing, lazy world building and a stagnant status quo

2nd mutation garbage

No it's not. The Avengers and other super heroes are all publicly aberrations. Just because there are supers doesn't mean it's something everyone really has to worry about. Mutants on the other hand go around calling themselves a whole species. That's the big difference. The super heroes all quite publicly try to use their powers for the greater good but mutants only show up to clean up mutant messes. They attack government buildings and generally do nothing but pitch a fit.

Thor hasn't knocked up enough bitches that his spawn threaten to replace humanity, that's the issue with mutants, not the superpowers in of themselves

Non-mutant superpowered beings are in the minority, very few people know Carol is half-alien and Carol canonically hired a PR firm to boost her popularity, Spider-Man is busting his ass everyday doing everything from stopping petty crime, fighting supervillains, or just helping people out while dealing with constant hit pieces from the Bugle, and the Avengers are a government sanctioned crimefighting team linked directly to a major corporation and constantly interacting with the public. Prior to the NuHumans showing up, non-mutant superpowers were a statistical aberration.

So I just stop after 200? I've been meaning to get into the X-Men.

Seriously, I would just love to see the issue be less strawmanny. It's always "humans hate and fear us" and never "You just demolished a city block by blinking. No shit people are scared of you." The X-men want to pull badass power level shit like this but then never want to play ball with any authority. They cry about having to register their powers but then bitch when humans build robots to defend themselves.

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I think part of the reason is that they've been dancing around the fact that mutants make a far better gun rights metaphor than minority metaphor.

I think what really bugs me and what I'd like to see addressed more is how non X or villain faction mutants regard the X-men. Because holy shit are they a sanctimonious lot. They're a small group of demi gods with great powers and are largely all super hot, hiding behind their mansions and cool jets having sex all day and they took it upon themselves to decide their a species?

So you got the X-men running around fighting the Brotherhood, both sides making a giant ass spectacle and all you want is to get through the day without anyone noticing you have hooves or a tail or whatever crappy power shit you have. The ability to turn wood into bacon. Whatever. And then, while you're minding your own business some faggot in a bucket and another in a yellow diaper start fighting over you, because the decided to OUT you in front of everyone and you want nothing to do with either. And now all your friends are dead and your whole life is ruined.

And what's worse is any mutant, no matter how disfiguring or dangerous your power is, is called a COWARD and not worthy of being X because you want to take the cure instead of being slug girl.

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It should be a puberty metaphor.
>Powers develop early in your life as you're just maturing
>Changes to your body
>Confusion over what your place in the world is becoming.

The problem is that everyone goes through that, and the metaphor is diluted by the dozens of other teens and adults.

>The problem is that everyone goes through that
YES! That's the fucking point.

Yeah, the issue is that since you've got a bunch of teens the metaphor is repeated across all of them. The puberty metaphor works for a limited series, but in the context of an ongoing series it'd just be repetitive.

No, the puberty metaphor works because it works as a theme and not a central story component. The characters are relatable because we see in them ourselves trying to find our place in the world in a confusing time. It's just to set up ground work for a super hero story. The actual adventurers aren't about them finding hair in new places. It's their "With great power must come great responsibility." The reason the racism doesn't work is because now almost every story is some mutant kill squad that makes even the most racist of people look reasonable.

Bloody hell you're dense.

Reminder that killing everything you touch is a gift and you should be grateful for it

It's an on-going series. The puberty metaphor will inevitably turn into the racist metaphor, figuratively, due to the nature of comics.

The point is, and pay attention this time, to not define your story by your theme. You can do the racism stories and any other stories, the problem is they've done nothing but. The theme should hang in the background.

Then the theme for pretty much every non-adult X-team has been puberty since the beginning.

The X-Men are just a shit Doom Patrol

There's nothing wrong with the racism theme, but they've always misfired on the execution. It's too over-the-top. It should've been subtle and in the background, but most writers go straight to Burning Mississippi.

this

I feel like this applies to marvel on the whole. It seems like no one really gets to settle on a book unless it's Slott or Bendis getting dibs on everything.

Nostalgia and refusing to let the series move on.

Honestly, yeah. M-Day was one of the bleakest times to be an X-Men fan, and then we had the Inhuman fart cloud kill even more X-Men and now we're in one of the most forced bleak times in the X-Men. Why should I get invested if they're just going to keep the big names in arrested development (I swear, that Rogue and Gambit book is one of the most repetitive books I ever read) and then kill off all niche favorites that could bring new life to the franchise?

Nah, fuck you. Make something fun that's not literally a palette swap.

Winick only came up with the concept, the run was by Austen and later Bedard. Your point stands though.

But that's completely missing the point that it isn't supposed to be rational. A point he does get through the whole Mutie culture/Quentin Quire part.
He couldn't pick his camp in this dumbass debate and brought ketchup to put on his chocolate cake.

IMO the ‘mutants as a racial minority’ metaphor was great for its time but it doesn’t hold well today. Identity politics is more generational (eg ‘Boomer vs Millenials’) or class based.

>It's way more rational than people in-universe praising Carol who is a half-fucking alien, Thor, Spider-man and Avengers in general but hating X-men.
Lots of people hate Spider-Man and the Avengers do a much better job at PR than the X-Men.

>Seriously, I would just love to see the issue be less strawmanny.
That's an issue with media that has a very moralizing message in general. Way too few antiracist movies try to understand the mindset of racism (or discrimination) beyond "they're meanies" or "they're stupid". To be fair when they try racists love the movie and miss the point like they're ghetto trash watching Scarface.

It doesn't work at all. People and objects aren't the same thing no matter how hard you push this nonsense.

Well it was one thing when the most extreme mutations only really resulted in street level powers. Then everyone started going super sayain and it's just ridiculous. You loose all empathy when can fart and nuke a planet.

Not enough Night Crawler. He was the only cool one.

That's because Peter's quipping and overall demeanor comes off as annoying to a lot of people, even if he means well, a lot of people can't tolerate him because of it, not because of the fact that he's a freak.

It became a shitty convoluted mess at the height of its success.

And sadly, there all to often actually is very real reasons for racism. Especially when you move outside your first world bubble. Histories of war, personal experiences with violence etc.

That's because super powers throw the whole equation out of wack. Hating someone for their religion, race or appearance is one thing. But those things can't, even accidentally, bring harm to you. Take for example Chamber. Now he's by all accounts a decent fellow and wouldn't hurt anyone. On purpose. But when his power kicked in, it took out an entire apartment building. I forget if it actually killed anyone but I know his then girlfriend was crippled. That's the kind of ticking time bomb you're dealing with. It's not any wonder people are afraid. You're minding your own business lined up to get a sandwich and BOOM some rando kid suddenly develops the power to sneeze and create hurricanes and you as well as everyone in a block radius is now in a pile of rubble bleeding out.

Now cases like this aren't common but there are far more extreme examples. What's more for all their good talk the X-men can't be everywhere. And not everyone will share their ideas or have their means to learn control. The mutant population is in the thousands to millions and the Xavier school can house maybe a couple hundred.

There's a general lack of tonal consistency that just undermines everything.

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Most people who hate him have never met him, they just read the Buggle.

There was a period int he Slott era where everyone just hated him. It was sad really. I remember when he the F4, Horn head and a bunch of others where super tight.

>Hating someone for their religion, race or appearance is one thing. But those things can't, even accidentally, bring harm to you.
I'm not one to go "religions are the cause of all violence" *tips* but there are certainly people who think they are. It's also hard to deny that most religions have a component of domination over competing religions.
The thing is that you have a choice in religion, the same way you have a choice in buying a gun or not, it's not genetic.

I understand your point though, kind of defeats the racism point when the other "race" is factually very dangerous beyond their intentions.
There was also that time when the X-Men had a crew to eliminate "problematic" muties discreetly, showing they are also affraid of the potential harm they can cause, but wish to hide it for PR reasons. Which of course is never brought up when facing anti-mutant sentiment. I guess it's funny in a meta way, it's both the X-Men and the writers consciously ignoring the problem for the sake of the message.

Marvel owned the rights to Iron Man, and when that movie was a huge success, they decided to focus more and more on their movie-licences.

They no longer owned the rights to Spiderman and X-men, so they decided to focus more on the franchises they did own the rights to. The Avengers got a huge push from the marketing department. The Avengers received a lot of attention, they were given more and more time and money to shine. They became the flagship title of the Marvel universe.

The problem however was that X-men was just so popular they still made money on the merchandise and the comics, so they decided to make the franchise and the IP less and less important for fans. So they tried to get X-men readers to move to the Avengers, and succesfully so.

So the X-men were given restrictions. Ridiculous restrictions that prevented writers from actually writing compelling stories. Decimation, and shoving all the remaining mutants into a camp. Restricting where the characters could go and how big the stories could get. So readers got turned off by the franchise.

Stories became less and less innovative, nothing was allowed to define anything, and the X-men just recycled through stories, each more pointless and lacklustre than the one that came before.

And that's how it's been for a while now. Nothing new happens, nothing big happens, it all comes back to the same status quo, and it's all too painfully self-aware, incestuous and insular.

ahem

FUCK INHUMANS

>Spiderman
Stopped reading there.

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I still remember seeing panels of characters like Ms Marvel going "drrr gee guys this situation is complicated, who's the right."

Protip: IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE WITH THE GENOCIDE CLOUD!

I was really surprised to learn that racists like American History X. That they even like the scenes that make fun of them because they don't see it that way.

That too, but the point is that even without the propaganda, a fair amount of his detractors point out that he's annoying.

>Claremont left
>Comic quality went down
>Blade movie was a success but Marvel only got a fraction of the profit
>some punk suggestd to Marvel to make their own movies
>Marvel gets a huge investment from Merril Lynch based on a gamble
>Iron Man movie with RDJ blew up, and increased hype in the Avengers
>Disney, seeing opportunity, quickly buys Marvel
>the Avengers becomes the pop culture icons of the 2010s, while the Xmen represent a boomer era of the 90s

I think that sums it up

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Effectively, the Mr. Sinster plot that Claremont wanted is too different from what we got and so the prior DECADE of plot twists start falling over each other.

Only since Morrison, before that mutants were normal people with extraordinary, yet cool powers. Even the Morlocks had to be made ugly by someone else.

Look at the current Uncanny run.

Sentient psychic bacteria

The 00s, Perlmutter having pissing matches with Fox, Every X-Men Story is the Same, oversaturation, almost two decades of cyclical "mutants are going extinct!" storylines, new cohorts of teen student X-Men introduced every 5 years to be used as future event casualty fodder, Decimation, Wolverine oversaturation, overall cratering of the quality of writing in the comics, wildly disparate quality across their movie series, lack of cartoons.

Basically, a lot.

>Lots of people hate Spider-Man
I always find it funny how Deadpool despite being a baseline human is closer to mutants and even gets to "identify" as one while Spider-man has lived a mutant life on an individual scale
>Press incites the mob against him
>Public and private bounties placed on his head
>Robots made specifically to hunt and kill him
>Little to no support from the wider hero community despite being an Avenger
The fact that he's only had one stint on the X-men and they all hated and feared him during it is goddamn criminal, even one of his bros Iceman stabbed him in the back. Guess they're still salty from OG Secret War, that happened like what a week ago due to the sliding timescale.

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Iceman was forced to be gay

That's a place to stop if you want pure quality. After that there is still good stuff but crossover hell begins and you have to start following several books to even understand the stories. If you're ok with it fumbling a bit and then giving you a dramatic ending stay until Mutant Massacre which ends at #213 and ties in with New Mutants and X-Factor. I'd recommend staying at least until then.

If you're ok with it fumbling more but still being ok stay until Fall of the Mutants which ends at #227 and also has tie-ins. If you want to see where it all goes stay until Inferno at #244 but it's pretty bad at that point.

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This is a good example of Jack vs. Stan. Kirby drew her as being competent and Stan added with his dialogue to cut her down and show that she wasn't He did this all the time during F4 as well.

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HEAR HEAR

>What happened?
Wait for the Disney Reboot theyll be big once more

>JUDO
>REED

YO WHAT!
Thats sounds good why dont they incorporate judo into Reeds powers more

Only really X3 and XMOW.

>The fact that he's only had one stint on the X-men and they all hated and feared him during it is goddamn criminal
It's also kinda funny. The X-Men are dicks.

Stan was terrible at writing women.

I hate to get all buzzword but the dude was clearly just a complete sexist that had no respect for women at all.

*dabs*

>Secret War, that happened like what a week ago due to the sliding timescale
If a year of comics equaled a month in the life, then it was about 3 years ago.

I don't want to judge his character, just his writing, and he wrote every woman's dialogue as a very shallow variation of "teehee boys".
Like shit, you can be sexist and write that everything women do is about men, as long as you do it well, it's not about the value of your message it's about whether you can tell it in an engaging manner. There's a fuckton of quality sexist work in art, Stan Lee's isn't. He had other strengths though.

Fantastic Four 11 is hilarious with the fan mails asking for Sue to be removed from the team for how useless she is

Also, the Hate Monger first appearance is written in a pretty goddamn racist and ignorant way. That’s why I always roll my eyes when leftists figures claim the Marvel Age of Comics was some sort of woke thing

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they stopped being superheroes

>Fantastic Four 11 is hilarious with the fan mails asking for Sue to be removed from the team for how useless she is

I love Reed's justification for Sue staying on the team. "Abraham Lincoln had a mother and SHE wasn't useless, so THERE!"

Whoah. Checkmate, Stan.

>he wrote every woman's dialogue as a very shallow variation of "teehee boys".

Superhero comics were a young boys' medium. That was his audience. Those were his customers. That's where he got his money. OF COURSE he wrote with the express purpose of appealing to them. So he wrote women being useless in conflict and subservient to men, because that's what appealed to his paying customers.

Stan didn't write the way people do now. "Hmmm, I wonder if the people who DON'T buy these books would like the way I'm writing this character?"

Except the paying audience wanted Sue gone because Stan wrote her blandly.

This is a bullshit answer. I mean yes the movies were shit but shit writing starting at AvX and through out all the 2010’s killed x-men.
We all know that marvel tried hard to set them up for failure because fox owned them. We all know they tried to replace them with the inhumans.
Shit movies not the reason.

>So the X-men were given restrictions. Ridiculous restrictions that prevented writers from actually writing compelling stories. Decimation, and shoving all the remaining mutants into a camp. Restricting where the characters could go and how big the stories could get. So readers got turned off by the franchise.

I think this actually caused harm not just to X-Men, but to Marvel itself, because not only did they chase off the X-Men fans, the X-Men fans stopped buying other Marvel books.

>edgy meme characters like deadpool, gambit, cable, psylocke, bishop

edgy meme characters Deadpool

>FTFY

It's very difficult to talk to normies.
Disney and Kevin Feige make changes to Marvel comics since 2012 that started by ripping out the leotard and curves of Carol Danvers and turning her into a feminazi
And they continued to do the same with other characters

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>I still don't know what I'm talking about: the post

Oh it's the leotardfag

And that was the reason they created the force field superpower later

X-men as a concept is outdated. Minorities have their own superheroes now. Do blacks even care about Storm over Black Panther? Mutants being some kind of discriminated race is bullshit. Was merely an outlet for white people to "feel" racism. If people have to register cars than registering some guy with 2 nukes in his eyes is more than reasonable. Not to mention the X-men are fucking supermodels while the actual "ugly" mutants live in the sewers.

>heavy-handed "muh oppression story" bullshit
sorry gamer, but that was literally the intention from the very beginning.

Not in the Kirby/Lee era

I HAPPEND

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That's literally false. Look up any of Stan's Soapboxes where he speaks out against discrimination.

He did that in all of the soap boxes, it was never thematically part of X-Men. Kirby didn't give a shit about X-Men and wouldn't put a theme that was so important to him in a book he didn't like.

The X-Men always being about the oppressed is typical Stan revisionism

Fuck off leotardfag

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Wow bud you really shouldn't announce so publicly that you can't see subtext or theme like that.

But that didnt really reflect in the comics that much, the X-men had a freaking fan club

The Hatemonger was also Stan’s way of talking against bigotry. His best example to use was to have the hatemonger induce a revolution in south america against evil americans. Once the hatemonger was defeated those fucking spics understood what was right for them and the comic ends praising American interventionism.

Even in the 60’s that was fucked up. The Marvel age of comic is full of this tone deaf examples of progressive politics from a white dude who knew no better

Lee originally wrote the X-Men and mutants as being popular celebrity heroes who were adored by the human public. Here's an example from X-Men #2.

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And here's another example. Humans loved mutants when the X-Men series started and the whole "allegory for minorities" thing wasn't even remotely present at the onset of the title. Certainly not part of its core premise.

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Humanity didn't hate mutants until X-Men #6, when it was basically retconned that mutants are hunted and persecuted individuals attacked by mobs and the X-Men are considered dangerous vigilantes.

So no, Lee did not write the X-Men as being oppressed minorities from the beginning. That was something he came up with later, AFTER he'd already established mutants as being popular, and then had to awkwardly add the "oppression" thing in and sweep the "popular" bit under the rug like it had never happened (he did the same thing with Prof. X being in love with Jean).

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Seems they were just a variant of the Fantastic Four formula.

Last time X-shit was good was when Morrison was writing New X-Men

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Silver Age X-Men is pretty bad and it didn't get any better when Roy Thomas took over from Lee, either. I understand that comics were much looser with continuity back then, but it's annoying how many dropped plot lines there are. Like the love triangle between Cyclops/Jean/Angel that goes on and on and then suddenly its over, not with any resolution, but like it never happened. Or this prolonged arc where Jean leaves to go to normal college and it threatens to break up the dynamic of the team, only for her to suddenly be at the institute again and the whole normal college thing is forgotten.

Or the fact that the X-Men graduate from the institute TWICE...

Yea this shit is not why people got into X-Men in the 90s. People likes superpowered badasses with leather jackets and knives fucking up robots, aliens and costumed supervillains. But for some reason almost everything X post-2005 or so focuses 100% on evil lynch mobs and gangs of mutant haters in the streets.

Nah earliest X-Men stories pretty much spelled out that the super special ones that actually developed superpowers while still looking human became heroes. While the ones who's powers mutated them into freaks and monsters turned evil.

It's because mutants are the catchall for any "oppressed minority". Hire a black writer and he'll use them as an allegory for black people. A gay writer will make them an allegory for gays. Trans an allegory for transgenders. Muslim an allegory for Muslims.

The concept of the catchall oppressed minority is SO attractive to liberals that they can't help themselves. It's the ultimate soapbox opportunity, second perhaps only to Captain America, who is perfect for "a REAL American wouldn't do _______" and "Oh woe is me where did my country go wrong? It must have been when ______ was elected president! FALCON HOLD MY SHIRT FOR I AM NOMAD NOW!"

I liked a lot of the X-Men but I fucking hated Wolverine. It sucked because every one else was always ever going to be a background character behind Wolverine no matter what X-Book I was reading. Even all tv series were Wolverine...and the other guys. It was fucking awful. The overexposure of Wolverine got me out of it since I was never going to see any of my favorite mutants shine at all.

>Even all tv series were Wolverine...and the other guys.

Evolution was actually pretty reserved with Wolverine and didn't make him the main character of the series. That one's the exception, though.

Even then that was pretty inconsistent. Iron Man, the FF (particularly Ben) were also sometimes inconsistently shown to be hated and considered menaces by the public. The whole "hero as outsider" was just a common Silver Age Marvel trope, and compared to Spider-Man, the X-Men got off extremely easy.

Even as late as the 70s, radical right wing politicians were shown to be able to come within a hairs-breadth of winning just by pretending to be affiliated with one member of the X-Men. Most instances of them being hated by humans were from people who didn't recognize them because they were in civilian clothes and used their powers, times when they were framed, or when encountering superstitious Europeans who thought they were seeing demons.

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>Was merely an outlet for white people to "feel" racism
That's a perfect sumization and why everything always:
>Defaults to Jim Crow/Holocaust tier race relations
>Everytime some one becomes a mutant they stop being black/white/Chinese or any other ethnicity and end up only mutants unless you need a "very special issue" of the X-men
The X-men is honestly one of the few books that actually needs someone who isn't a coastal liberal white dude to write it but even then I'd bet who ever they got would write the same shit . I wish Dwayne McDuffie was still alive, he'd do the X-men some justice, hell maybe we could get Priest to take over someday

Basically this. Back when all other superheroes were square jawwed stout icons of truth and justice with moral codes, the X-Men had hairy little canadian guy that likes killing things and drinking beer, cool leather coat Cajun thief manwhore, southern redneck tits and ass, sasquatch scientist, they were everyone else from everywhere else. They were a collection of random people you might find in a Walmart in Ohio. They really stand apart from all the other superhero teams out there.

Nobody gave a shit about minority status or forces allegory drama. They just wanted to see Wolverine smoke a cigar and cut things, and Gambit be cool and blow stuff up while hitting on rogue.

1) X-men having gone from "superheroes who happen to be mutants" to "heroes who deal with mutant problems only" really restricted them.

2)I think the fact that the "next generation" of potential X-men always get derailed to keep the original famous X-men going is a problem as well.

McDuffie might actually write unintentionally hilarious allegories. Instead of mobs in the streets with torches, he would add in subtle racism. Like SHIELD randomly picking up some X-Men for questioning of events that only avengers or FF members were a part of. Other superheros saying that their stopping a bad guy is a credit to their race. Hero teams having a token mutant for PR reasons but never actually having them on their missions against villains. Thing being ten times more popular and beloved than Colossus in the public eye, Human torch also loved more than Firestar, while Firestar is considered dangerous for playing with fire around people. Reckless and hazardous Human Torch is still loved more.

Hawkeye embarrassingly saying to Beast "What...I can say Miggas, two of my best friends are mutants.Besides I said it with an A at the end, that means friend..."

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Oh come on, don't make this thread another anti-stan like he didn't do anything in marvel and only reason marvel become big was because of Ditko and Kirby.

Deadpool hardly is edgy or meme anymore.

>"heroes who deal with mutant problems only"
They're a special interest group that occasionally saves the world and if many of the "mutants win and kill most/all humans" bad ends are any indication most of the "good" guys would jump ship and join the bad guys if things got bad enough, think about that

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How in hell was "x-statix" ever recycled in any way?

That sounds amazing and a million times better than lynch mobs and concentration camps for the umpteenth time.

I can understand for not liking overexposure but hating character because of it and acting like he has no good stories is just stupid.

I feel like you might not have read Muh Phoenix. You should.

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He didn't, he said that Stan was writing them poorly, clearly implying he was fucking writing them.

Not because of it, I always hated the character. I hate future X-Men stuff because of it.

>most of the "good" guys would jump ship and join the bad guys if things got bad enough
>most
No.

But he clearly dissmisses Stan like he did nothing good.

Boondocks with Grandpa as Xavier and Cyclops is Huey and Wolverine as Riley would be fucking great.

Wunsler III and Rummy would be two superheros that society always forgives at all times.

Why? You don't like his character type?

Who would be Ruckus?

People got into x-men in the 90s because already popular team was relaunched. >superpowered badasses with leather jackets and knives fucking up robots, aliens and costumed supervillains
is every fucking 90s comic ever.

>Cyclops and Iceman join up with Apocalypse in AoA
>Everyone decides to follow the Apocalypse twins after they blow up the Earth in the Uncanny Avengers story, going so far as to become their enforcers on Planet M instead of fighting to take over.
The X-men would cut our necks if the possibility of mutants taking over was eminent

I don't like the character is the why. I just don't like him.

They can easily be Human Torch and Thing, they fuck up large parts of New York all the time yet society loves them no matter what. They never get into trouble ripping out parts of street lights and using them as weapons or trashing entire floors of buildings.

I would say you can read all they way up to Fall of the Mutants. After they moved to Australia and became invisible do-gooders, things really went to shit. And then the endless crossovers began.

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The x-man should have a law firm for mutants rights because possibly a number of mistakes and fighting in court bad mutants laws.

It is worth it up to Fall of the Mutants but you'd have to read New Mutants and X-Factor and I just can't rec those. Especially considering X-Factor is the death of Claremont's run.

No, his comment only pertains to his writing of Sue Storm, which was shit.

Cyclops goes back to the good guys in AoA
>1 other example
Pretty weak.

It's a point in FF that they do extensive PR so that Ben doesn't hate Reed's guts.

They had a homosexual Jew make the movies. Which were mostly terrible.

Captain Britain is a lot like Ruckus, a mutant who swears he isn't a mutant and is anti mutant a lot of times.Also wants to be taken as a traditional superhero

Quicksilver would be Tom. Rather hang out with Avengers, and Inhumans, distance himself from his mutant roots. And pretend to be a non-mutant superhero by playing their game instead.

New Mutants is good you no taste shitter

Sure thing X-baby

Not really. The Sienkiewicz are is good but at odds with Claremont's prose. The Demon Bear and Legion stories are good. The rest is just X-Men with shittier stories and villains and worse of all bad characters. Magik is the only one in the book interesting. Even the slam dunk premise of Magneto leading them team isn't executed well.

Kitty aren't you supppsed to get cucked by Colossus right now?

>movie casual immediately thinks that OP is talking about movies
Of course.

bump

Marvel tried to sabotage them in favor of the Inhumans. Then Disney bought the rights back from Fox. Oops.

>there was an Inhumans TV series

I keep forgetting to the point where I wonder if it was real or not.

FUCK DISNEY!

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If I remember correctly, those early events, Massacre and Fall, are not as interconnected as later ones. Did the different teams even meet? Certainly not in Fall, and I don't remember in Massacre. I remember Logan smelling Jean in the Morlock tunnels and getting freaked out, but that was it.

I think Inferno was the first where you actually needed to read non-Uncanny issues to figure out what was going on.

Wolverine is a fucking asshole who doesn't fit the themes at all

He's an asshole with a good heart, though.

>2)I think the fact that the "next generation" of potential X-men always get derailed to keep the original famous X-men going is a problem as well.

That's literally only a problem if you're only reading a tie-in book full of the writer's OC teens, and you're new enough that you actually think Big 2 comics have the story and timeline progress enough that the popular characters that have existed for decades will ever get old and retire forever, and now the teens will get to grow up and take over.

It will never stop being confusing how so many anons actually believed this would happen for the X-books' third generation of teens in the 2000s, when they knew it hadn't happened for the New Mutants or Generation X.

I don't think anyone actually expects them to take over full time. I think most of the more reasonable X-teen fans would just appreciate it if they didn't all become wallpaper or murder fodder.

>Five X-Men get the Phoenix Force and decide to conquer Earth, and throw their enemies into Limbo, the rest of the X-Men obediently follow them.
>A few of the X-Men get inverted during Axis and become villains, even the ones who weren't inverted join Apocalypse and his plan to make war on humans.
>X-Men side with an obviously insane and evil Emma Frost to start a war without the Inhumans instead of trying to talk to them first. Beast wants to talk, they attack him. The X-Men again start imprisoning their captives in Limbo.

They didn't die as heroes, they lived long enough to become the villains.

>I don't think anyone actually expects them to take over full time. I think most of the more reasonable X-teen fans

That's a big part of the problem. The reasonable ones are drowned out by the louder and angrier ones who genuinely believe that one day Wolverine, Cyclops and Storm will retire and someone like Pixie or Hellion's time will finally come, and act like this is what the majority of readers want.

>would just appreciate it if they didn't all become wallpaper or murder fodder.

It would benefit the books to stop having a large cast of wallpaper characters, just keep around the ones who are going to do anything, and leave the rest in limbo until someone wants to use them somewhere. Modern day X-book sales make it hard to argue for launching more books to spotlight the characters currently used for wallpaper.

Big 2 comics are always going to use lower-tier characters as murder fodder, to make their stories 'matter', and to 'raise the stakes', this mentality is so entrenched it may be impossible to change it.

Decimation was actually before the Iron Man movie. Quesada just genuinely believed that there were too many mutants and they were harming the franchise. Although, yes, it was still likely damaging to the franchise overall.

Decimation was before the Iron Man movie, but after the Mutant X lawsuit. I wouldn't be surprised if that factored in somehow.

>>Defaults to Jim Crow/Holocaust tier race relations
okay but that's not true
this is from like last year friendo

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it was for it's time

Jim Lee’s departure was the start of the comics decline, then the 90’s ended.

>Stan was a terrible writer

There fixed it.

>replace them with the inhumans
But the inhumans are fucking shit compared to the x men.

The writers got obsessed with making them a metaphor for racism, and only that.
They could be a stand in for that, but during their peak they were a stand in for many other things, from puberty, to homosexuality, to fear and hope for change, from social isolation for being a loser to social isolation for being elite.
Their stories could go from weird sci-fi to dark and gritty social commentary, but above all they were a family.

Also writers got obsessed with making all their stories about drama and tragedy and reduced them to the only plot of Mutants are about to go extinct".
Sure some of their most popular storilines were about that, but even those ended on a note of hope and positivity for the future, and there plenty of fun times even during the dark stories.
And there were plenty of other stories which were much more light hearted.

Plus movie rights problems means that they got shafted in the comics, had no more cartoon adaptations and no mcu movies, while other characters got heavilly promoted by disney.

Ironically some of their most popular dark storilines were more similar in tone to IW or Ragnarock than to the actual fox adaptations.

It wasn't like this during the claremont era and during part of the 90s, at least it wasn't constantly like this.
Their goal wasn't to improve humans-mutants relations, it was to prevent their deterioration and to stop extremists on both sides who would cause massacres.
There were humans who hated mutants but they weren't the majority.
The books went to shit when it shifted to what you said and everyone hated mutants and mutants were a persecuted minority, because it meant that they had atually failed on the goal they had pursued for decades.
For instance what wast DoFP plot? Stop the killing of a mutant-hating human senator, because it would have worsened the inter-species relations and caused anti-mutant legislation to be enacted.
By saving him they fostered peace and understanding.

Good or at least decent relations were the status-quo that the x-men protecte, not the goal that they fought to achieve.

i loved this issue, it was fun.

>if they wanted to keep the "mutants as a metaphor for minorities and social groups on the fringes of society" thing.

The thing is that became a thing only after Morrison, and it wasn't what made the X-Men popular.
Sure it existed, but it wasn't the only thing they were about and it wasn't the biggest either.
You know what was the biggest thing about the x-men?
Change, specifically generational change.
You know that scene in the simpsons where grandpa says that he once was with It but then they changed what It was and the new It is weird and scary?
The mutants are It. They are the new generation that will take over the world, but that seems weird and dangerous to the older generations.
It resonated particularly well with younger people, because it represents their feeling. That they don't quite fit into the world, that it belong to others, but someday they will have to be in charge. That they are trying to make their way into the world, but those who control it don't understand them, try to stifle their voices and think that everythign new they do is weird and dangerous.
But everyone can identify with that because everyone has gone through the same phase.
That is what the mutants are really a metaphor for.

>That's because Peter's quipping and overall demeanor comes off as annoying to a lot of people, even if he means well, a lot of people can't tolerate him because of it, not because of the fact that he's a freak.

they should go with this characterization more often

Anons I'm starting the Outback Era in my Claremont read through and I'm ready to tap. I already dropped New Mutants and X-Factor and it's getting to be a chore. Fall of the Mutants did nothing for me.

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>this whole post
Yikes

Read again you mong he is telling two good storylines well not storylines but series.

They took Xavier out and never recovered. The plots and character have been an absolute jumbled mess that nobody can fucking follow since then, made worse by having fucking five current ongoing so even people who want to bother following get shafted.

The Outback era is underrated and also full of shamless cheescake

>Let's keep making up new and more horrific shit Xavier did in the past for the sake of drama and making other psychics look good.
Now I ain't saying he was a saint from the start, but I think we crossed a line and I miss the fatherly mentor figure.

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Where the fuck did I say any of that you insufferable cunt

Didn't say you did, you illiterate moron.

No, fuck off. You're not slick.

Stupid newfag

Samefag. You're really not slick.

Lobdell and Nicieza period wasn’t that bad what came after was even worse.

Nope, not him. You're just a fucking retard for not knowing that greentext doesn't always have to be from the person you're responding to.

You're still not fooling anyone.

You're just digging yourself deeper, brainlet

Man it's like watching an idiot trying to put out fire with kerosene.

Maybe but the Stan's writing also is one of the reasons why Marvel become so huge. Also Ditko and Kirby aren't any better.

That may have been true, but I know back when it was being published a lot of people were complaining about the Lobdell/Nicieza era. Even Claremont's return had a mixed reaction. Nowadays it definitely is leaps and bounds better than a lot of 2010's X-Men.

Well that should tell you the problem with the people running Marvel.

>he's still trying it

Disney intentionally de-pushed them because of not having the movie rights.

Fall of the Mutants was a big deal because Storm go her powers back. That's all

Its movies synergy

I read through the Silver Age run of X-Men a while back. The early issues have all the classic stories clustered together (Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Sentinels, Savage Land, Juggernaut) and the final run has the great Neal Adams art going for it, but there is a HUUUUUUGE chunk of content in between that is god awful.

That said, there are some forgotten dynamics from the Silver Age X-Men comics that I wish had stuck around. Like Blob and Unus being a criminal duo. Those two were great together.

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The one where they teamup to frame the X-Men is probably the only "underrated" Silver Age X-Men story I can think of.

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So if this dude takes a dump, would it turn into a ballistic projectile?

>his intestines are essentially a rail gun

Cursed mutant powers. (but no, Unus can control his repulsor powers except when Beast built a device to crank them up to 11 so he couldn't eat and starved him into submission)

Not just in the X-men books.

Seems he's now pretty much the reason Namor is a temperamental autist who's now planning to use nukes on the human world.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, they make it that he's the one who actually started the whole "homo superior" for Magneto.

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Stan had a floor of ghost writers and editors to get the writing done, he just took credit.

The Invaders series does have Xavier saying Homo superior a few times. It sort of looks like Xavier has no intention of making any peaceful coexistence in this either. Mutants either join him and be the new superior race on Earth or get mindwiped.

Sometimes I really wish Onslaught hadn't happened, or Morrison's retcon about The Chief in Doom Patrol, because there are so many problems with modern X-Men that could be deconstructed in a good story about Xavier being evil/insane, but it's become so cliché now.

I really like the idea someone proposed in another thread that he mind-wiped the human race into hating mutants in order to make mutants easier for him to control, it would explain so many inconsistencies.

No, he always credited his brother Larry and other staff writers, even back in the 60s.

> heavy-handed "muh oppression story" bullshit

>Lee originally wrote the X-Men and mutants as being popular celebrity heroes who were adored by the human public. Here's an example from X-Men #2.

Honestly seeing this old X-Men and how far we've come makes the me think either way, the "oppressed minority/victim" angle has very much run it's course. I've said this for awhile but an original spin on the X-Men in these days would be treating being mutants like LGBT is treated now, where everyone trips on themselves to support them... or else.

I've wanted to write a story or see a story on trans-mutants, people giving themselves powers or stealing them and saying they are mutants and how the public accepts them more than regular mutants or something.

It's not about politics even, there room for original story growth in just flipping the script on the narrative and having fun with that.

That would actually be quite brilliant, especially the "Trans-Mutant" idea. And yeah, it doesn't even have to be political, but could even be a commentary on how big the X-Men were shilled during the 90s and forced into appearing in everything, and then how all that stopped.

>The X-Men think they have it all, until Inhumans and Asgardian refugees become the hip, new minorities...

That's what I'm thinking, just commenting on how super heroes become so popular it's hard to maintain the in-universe hatred for X-Men too, they're actually popular and accepted.

Imagine The Mutant Acceptance Movement or MAM. #MAM. You either accept mutants or you're a bigot. Anti-Mutant hate will not be tolerated. Anyone can be a mutant, it's not about x-genes! You just have to feel different and feel special... that's what makes you a mutant. Society is obligated to give you the synthetic x-hormones capable of living out your true mutant-self lifestyle!

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That would be a great fan made comic. No fucking way Marvel would dare to publish something like that. The backlash would be horrendous

Going into politically incorrect ideas, I’ve been thinking about rewriting Amadeus Cho as one of those angry Asians from reddit. The transformation gets triggered at seeing AW/WM couples on the street

I just need to practice my Loomis a little bit more

the metaphor for oppressed minority/victim makes zero sense now, when you can have actualy minority characters written by actual minority writers.
What's the point of using superpowers as a metaphor for transsexualism when you can havet an actual transsexual character written by an atual transsexual person?
It super dumb

Yea a comic about how mutants are oppressing non-mutants for being bigoted against mutants sounds great and very in line with the core concept of the series. The perma triggered right truly is the great fountain of creativity. Maybe a Superman comic tackling the great Starbucks cup war against Kryptonian Christmas could be next.

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He's asking for two recycled storylines you absolute fucking retard

>the core concept of the series

A bunch of handsome, white frat boys who sexually harass their new female recruit and work for a bald fascist who mind-rapes those who disagree with him battle a cackling evil subversive and are admired by the public to the point people can win elections by pretending to be associated with just one of them?

Imagine being this stupid

No. Protecting the world that hates and fears them.

Exactly, times have changed so much that just commenting on that alone is enough. What happens when they win? History shows people struggling for recognition, minorities vs majorities and then winning, winning a little too much these days. That's the point.

It's a complete change of pace to go from the stereotypical "My kid is a mutant and that's different I'm afraid" cultural to "my kid is a mutant we are proud of mutants, mutants are the best!" But that seems great except their is something sinister motivating it..

>Yea a comic about how mutants are oppressing non-mutants for being bigoted against mutants sounds great and very in line with the core concept of the series.

Even being sarcastic, this makes it sound good. Why are mutants automatically the good guys? Magneto and other's existence says' there are not. And this story isn't mutants oppressing non-mutants, it would be non-mutants using mutants and mutant issue to oppress everyone and create fake mutant brainwashed supporters because who doesn't want the Phoenix Force or some omega powered person under their thumb?

> Maybe a Superman comic tackling the great Starbucks cup war against Kryptonian Christmas could be next.

I'm atheist so this story would be coming from secular analysis of the metaphor. Not whatever you're emotionally associating with here.

>everyone trips on themselves to support them... or else.
Except there would still be sentinels running around, seeing as Mike Pence is the current VP.

Because then the average reader won't read it and will continue to assume they know what marginalized people face.

Imagine not reading any of the comics or the examples posted in this thread.
Which did not become a thing until Len Wein.

MCU movies are shit too, so?

>this is actually how right-wingers think the world works

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To them, everyone who disagrees are the same.

Are you one of those idiots that whine about how Batman killing was core to his character because of his few early issues or about how Peter should have stayed an anti-social jerk because that's how he was first written?

>t. Someone who has never read Silver Age X-Men

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>heavy-handed "muh oppression story" bullshit
Claremont pushed this harder than anyone and his X-Men is the one OP is referring to. Stop being subsumed by ideology you fucking retard.

see Concepts change over time and what you posted is clearly not what the core concept of the X-men became

>names over 100 stories worth of content
>y-y-y-you don't have an answer
get gassed moviefaggot

Just because that was retconned in doesn't mean it was a core concept originally.

Are you one of those idiots who think Lex Luthor was Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster's critique of Donald Trump in 1940?

>no hair
>evil
Literally Donald Trump tho

>retconned
It evolved because the starting concept was shallow and frankly dumb. I agree that the current course of X-men being oppressed all the time has gotten VERY VERY old and stale but that doesn't mean we should go back to the old one that didn't even work when it first came out since early ass X-men was literally garbage and completely failed

>>no hair

You stupid casual, he had hair in his first appearance

Don't forget how they all suddenly became Ditko purists and claimed casting Cumberbatch was 'whitewashing' because Dr. Strange looked kinda vaguely Asian in his first appearance (even though that clearly wasn't the case by the time his origin appeared).

yeah but so did Trump

For some reason this made me laugh, good job user.

Based Stan Lee

Why does it have to be left wing or right wing? It's just about the penedulum swinging differently and doing something original with the story, noting the underlying metaphor has some kinks in it and exploring that leads to a different villain group or class... the ultimate goal is to give the X-Men something new to face and boost sales.

The Left's story of "oppressed, hated and killed" has been done to death, brought back and killed off more times than Hawkman. Try something different for once.

Because he literally brought up how people are being oppressed by gays in his post

Thanks!

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I'm the person and I literally didn't say that at all. YOU read that, that's not what was being said.

>and I literally didn't say that at all.
So you didn't write
>like LGBT is treated now, where everyone trips on themselves to support them... or else.
Weird, wonder how that showed up in your post
I do agree that they need a new gimmick though, the being oppressed and having everyone hate them forever because of space bacteria and shit is really dumb and massively overplayed.
Honestly I wouldn't mind an arc built around the X-men attempting to get a bunch of really really good PR by dealing with non-mutant shit and them having to deal with how insulated and shit the current culture of mutants are. Hell you could spin that politically as well pretty damn easily if you wanted

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Exactly. It would be the perfect deconstructionist take. We have to accept every other 'suversive' take on popular heroes that makes Captain America a Hydra supporter, Batman an evil capitalist taken down by a progressive Joker, Bruce Banner told he's never been treated as an outcast, Indiana Jones called a graverobber, Fox Mulder told he's a loser who is wasting his life, Luke Skywalker deciding The Jedi are wrong, what's so bad about shaking up a 'core concept" that didn't even exist for a decade? All we'd get otherwise would be the same old grudge-matches or the same old "oppressed, hated and killed" story like you said. Even leftists are getting tired of it, just look at the reaction to Rahne's death.

user what does that "or else" mean?

That means things like having people get you fired from your job for something you said years ago that current LGBT people don't like. Honestly the T int heir is what is causing a lots of problems for the movement, if anything this story would focus on how people in movements splinter off and cause division and overall fuck everyone. That kind of thing.

That "or else" wasn't implying anything beyond what's currently happening in todays society. That isnt' gay's suppression people but people using gays to suppress other's voices. Even gay's getting this treatment like Milo.

You know, I was ready to write you off but you make a decent enough point and that would be a kinda cool story to see so sure, why not.
Someone hire you to go write at Marvel

>Honestly I wouldn't mind an arc built around the X-men attempting to get a bunch of really really good PR by dealing with non-mutant shit and them having to deal with how insulated and shit the current culture of mutants are. Hell you could spin that politically as well pretty damn easily if you wanted

That actually would be good too.

well that's because Milo is in the Sunken Place and is being celebrated as a token minority so the right doesn't look (even more) overwhelming homogeneous.

>Which did not become a thing until Len Wein.

And?

Yes.

>People got into x-men in the 90s because already popular team was relaunched

Except all the kids who got into it via TAS didn't know jack or shit about the 80s comics

They saw a hairy asshole with knives in his hands and hot women, both in yellow spandex

Keep this in mind, I come up with these ideas as a way of mental practice for the career of comic writing and drawing. This is my idea if someone asked me to do X-Men or Marvel so I'm not crusading for the Republicans here, I have my own political and philosophical views and part of those including not turning art into propaganda.

So a big element of this half-baked X-Men idea is just a comment on the current state of X-Men and the industry. I appreciate you're praises and criticism, proving their is market ground/demand for something original, even if it's a little less Current Year Liberal. The general idea for this story, like I said, is both on the shallow side setting up a new villain class and group for the modern X-men to go up against and it's underlying mechanics explore the old idea of Mutant As Metaphor and the cycle of civil rights movements.

The general plot goes like this:

>X-Men are shown to be loved at first
>Then hated because of Magneto and people like Kelly who had ulterior agendas, Military Industrial Complex paying for anti-mutant stuff
>Times change
>X-Men saved the world so much
>Win favor, Avenger's, Captain America support Mutant Rights
>Iron Man and Stark Industries stand by Mutants etc.
>New generation grow up wanting to be super heroes, mutants, X-men.

>Era of Mutant Acceptance.
>Mutant Acceptance Movement brings massive success,
>Mutants win civil rights.
>Mutant Day is celebrated world wide.
>All of this is very peaceful until

>A "mutant" named "Triclops" shows up at the Xavier Institute
>Doesn't have an X-gene, gets rejected
>Gets told by Cyclops you can't declare yourself a mutant.

>Triclops shows up a few years later
>With the T-Men.
>The Transmutants have arrived.
>No more X.
>"Three lazer eyes are better than two..."

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And don't forget the Pizza Hut merch!

It's seriously a tradition for me to order Pizza Hut after I go see every new X-Men movie.

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>My kid is a mutant and that's different I'm afraid" cultural to "my kid is a mutant we are proud of mutants, mutants are the best!"
there would still be people who hate mutants or try to exploit them. All things that already happened in the past. Ms Sinister didn't hate mutants for instance. Genosh used them because their powers were convenient.

What happened in the last 2 decades is not even about the themes, it's like if Hydra has won and the last 20 years of Captain america was him trying to turn the nation back to a democracy and failing constantly while all the people he must protect get killed or imprisoned.

>people who try to live normal life and supress their mutant powers are seen as traitors by mutants and society all-around
>mutants break about how to view trans-mutants
I'm feeling it.

Rahne's death was genuinely fucked up and exploitative. I would actually support feminists if they called it an example of fridging.

It's probably gonna win an award for being a metaphor for Trans murders or something.

Your idea would be fun, but it definitely wouldn't fly because of people like . It would totally get torn to shreds and you'd get fired for even proposing it.

Storytime that issue

That one's actually post Silver Age, early 80s.

>Your idea would be fun, but it definitely wouldn't fly because of people like . It would totally get torn to shreds and you'd get fired for even proposing it.

Well, ideally I'd just focus on the fun factor of it. The general idea of the T-Men, conceptually is that they're playing on a familiar trope in cape comics where the villains get the heroes powers and costumes and stuff. This idea of the bad guy or challenge in the same type of uniforms, styles, powers and the original. Like Sinestro Corps. So the surface level fun idea here is seeing a group of people given the X-Men's mutations, all with a twist of sorts and juxaposted to them and their world.

The T-Men color scheme is pink and green, like classic marvel villain purple and green, but lighter, signifying a lighter harder nature. They certainly don't see themselves as villains but rather identifying as "super hero" mutants as well. Tricolps has three lazer eyes, maybe they're blue or different colored. Daycrawler who looks those transalien people, human skin but nightcrawler's tail and reverse-teleports. Ris'que who's like Gambit in drag. So creepier upgrades of the normal X-Men

The designs are meant to be transferable and adaptable, meaning one could make toys out of them or easily add the group into the kids shows being the creepy, copy group. Below the surface the inspiration is the modern shift in movements and politics and how they get wrapped up in super hero comics. The larger plot involves the Military Industrial Complex and government weaponizing the x-genes and using the T-Men as experiments on the general public, giving them rights so the military can create their own VOLUNTARY army wing of Wolverines, Magnetos, Rogues, etc...

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Don't use me as your strawman, dipshit.

How does this fit with Namor spending years as an amnesiac vagrant?

>Why are mutants automatically the good guys? Magneto and other's existence says' there are not.

It's getting increasingly convincing that a lot of X-Men writers take the metaphor so seriously that they don't like the idea of mutants being villains, which would explain why so many of them have been allowed to join X-Men teams.

Yeah exactly, they're too afraid of showing mutants as being capable of Evil too, thinking people will over read into that. It's not a bad idea in the context, some people would get powers and be murdering assholes. Some would be good, maybe it would depend on the power and how it works.

The current direction looks like he had the same idea as Magneto until the late 50s. He wanted to make sure mutants take their place as the superior race on Earth too and wanted to get as many of them together.

But something sort of "scared him straight" in the late 50s or early 60s and he changed directions completely and wants peaceful coexistence.

Marvel has played around with people wanting superpowers before. I don't see how this is any different from people wanting what mutants have too.

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This is one of the main reasons why a lot of people just want mutants to be in a separate universe from the rest of Marvel.

The "everybody hates me because I have powers and a costume" does not fit with the rest of the universe at all.

Gamma freaks should really be the ones society hates. Most often they really are freaks and monsters, usually green. And too damn many of them are city destroying destructive assholes.

Xavier wanted some mutant to be his weapon, SHIELD wanted him too. Namor did not agree with Xavier and got his brain fucked over real bad and he was an amnesiac for another 20+ years. Now he has anger problems and it is Xavier's fault for attacking his brain like that and leaving him unbalanced.

It's from the current Invaders series. Basically Namor ended up stumbling into one of his old friend's family and then hung around them as he gradually got his memories back. Things were going fine until Xavier found him and took him into a joy ride to find other mutants. Eventually Xavier thought he could fix Namor's temper issues but ended up making it even worse now and of course caused him to lose his memories again.

The T-Men are a good way of exploring the idea of everyone wanting a power, costume, name and villains to fight but not the responsibility or consequences or hard work taken to earn those titles and the role of super hero. The T-Men symbolize the modern shift in love of comics in popular culture, cosplay and super hero fatigue people are claiming to get. I love cape/super hero stuff, so this is a way of poking at the posers, casuals and fakes, they're like the transgender people moving in on the gay pride's movement and then bringing negative influence to the whole movement. One group claiming to support the same thing, but thing causing division over differences.

I'd like to explore X-Men as super heroes more too, reestablishing that's what they were always meant to be.

It seems like most mutants tend to crown under a really powerful one more often than not. X-Men under Xavier, Acolytes and Brotherhood under Magneto, Nasty Boys and Marauders under Sinister, Horsemen under Apocalypse, Hellions under Emma. Most mutant fights can be considered more like rival gangs fighting for turf and new members.

Most of them ARE hated, She-Hulk is the main exception because she can usually be trusted not to destroy everything around her. Civil War 2 was bad, but the part where the public celebrates the death of Bruce Banner was something Bendis got right.

The difference in how much hatred they get is because the Hulks and other gamma-enhanced people probably number less than 20. They're not a race, there aren't enough of them to threaten to replace humanity, you'd probably never see a Hulk in person or know anyone who saw one. It's a much more distant threat than the possibility that anyone around you, even people you think are your friends or family, could secretly be a mutant and could be reading your mind right now.

Xavier wanted to use the guy's power to turn people into animals to forcably turn people into mutants so he can have his majority. Namor thought that was a stupid idea and tried to stop Xavier, but then cops shot the random mutant guy. So Xavier fucked Namor's brain up by making him see visions of the Army Private he could not save in WWII which made Namor go crazy and repress his memory for decades. Now he is just pissed off at the surface world because of the one guy he could not save that Xavier used later to mess with him.

X-Men stuff makes so much more sense when you just accept Xavier is a jerk

Xavier did seem to be the most interested in keeping mutants and non mutant heroes completely separate

Too much exposure. For a hot second the X-Men WERE Marvel. Everything seemed to revolve around the X-Books.

I accept it, I think in his position and with his power he does things others can't do simply because they don't have the power, the man has no love of privacy really.

>A Y chromosome

Tell me people don’t pay to read this shit

Does intersectionality exist in the mutant world?

Why would disfigured mutants or non-white mutants care about what a group of mostly human-passing white dudes have to say? Hell, with Jew/non-white relationships being so bad right now, why would extremists side with an old white jew?

That's a good question, I was thinking of using the Morlochs in the sewers a goo illustration of that. Homeless, creepy weird mutants are more discriminated against than healthy looking "normal" mutants. That should be an issue, not all mutants are accepted as others.

>...When the MCU synergy guidelines betrayed them they made a mistake...

Their lore is outdated

If X-men were real, /pol/ would probably shit on them hard

Deadpool rips this aspect of Peter off more than Spidey does, He's just portrayed as a whiny badly slandered freak and geeky outcast. While wade is hated because his a straight up jackass mouthy jerk and pyscho.

They sadly gave all this to Wade Wilson, Peter is just clumsy dorky freak of the new York heroes.

>If X-men were real, /pol/ would probably shit on them hard

While fapping to the females. Just like non-whites.

I think both the shitty Fox movies hurt as much as they did get more mainstream attention.

Plus the crazy soap opera shenanegins went over the top and the characters were not managed well. The few good X-books were lost among a glut of sub par ones that created a mess for readers. Even worse when half assed crossovers dragged them into the same muck.

I recently realized it has been a decade since I got new X-men and Marvel titles. Sometime around 2009 I quit cold turkey. I think Ellis's Astonishing was tbe last book I followed. I have only vauge ideas of how far off the rails they are now.

Since then I have just gotten old books from the 80s and 90s that I missed out on.

I did just got a bunch of boxes from my friend who was clearing out his basement as he closed down his comic shop. Even in the 90s and 00s, the X books were a mixed bag.

Perlmutter nailed the coffin shut. The X-books were already in dire straits.

Somon Grundy want lack of pants too.

and you see what a dumpster fire the DCU is even after like three reboots since then

"Mutay" makes more sense.

This is the real reason.

Thank god it did happen tho or we probably wouldn't have gotten Iron Man or the MCU as we know it

>>New generation grow up wanting to be super heroes, mutants, X-men.
This is why your idea won't work. 10 years MAX have passed since 1961 in the Marvel universe. There is no "new generation."

Dude that's just the U-Men.

I mean, it came in issue 6. You're talking like it was an addition from years later, but it was still part of one of the first concepts introduced even if it wasn't in the first issue itself.

Not a stawman, but rather a specieman.

/pol/ consider themselves homo superior, though