So if they made new realities just by going back in time as the Russos said, The Avengers doomed 3 different alternate universes and billions upon billions of lives because by the very nature of splinter-time travel, going back to return it would just make yet another splinter
Well.
Thats fucking shitty. Now all the main heroes are horrific mass murderers who willingly let untold quadrillions of people die.
Ego ate the universe. Dormammu ate the earth.
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No, they can go back to the same timeline the same way Future Trunks can go back to his timeline after training for Cell. It would only create another splinter if they entered at a point before they left originally.
Its a time machine, not an alternate universe travelling machine, user.
The Avengers directly murdered sextillions of people.
Since the stones were returned to each reality, each reality's messing around with was fixed and ended exactly at the end of the movie.
The bald chick made this pretty damn clear desu
>Its a time machine, not an alternate universe travelling machine, user.
It's a time machine that acts as an alternate universe machine because that's how time travel works in the mcu.
Nope. If time splits from time travel, then there now exists a reality in which Dormammu devoured the earth.
No The Russos made it clear that its time travel, but when you time travel you cause a branch to form.
The Avengers murdered untold numbers of innocent people.
>No The Russos made it clear that its time travel,
That works by going into alternate realities.
No, it creates alternate realities. Thats how they said it works.
The Avengers are monsters.
That's true if they don't change anything when grabbing the gems. Instead everything but Asgard got fucked up.
Once they establish a branch timeline, it's no longer part of "their" history, so they can jump back into it as long as they don't attempt to overlap with the part of the branch timeline that is within their own history. Cap can jump back into the "Loki Escapes" Timeline right after he left it and not cause a new branch timeline because he's not crossing paths with his own personal history.
Which is retarded..
So what you can change ANOTHER universes timeline with impunity? No, thats fucking stupid.
Either time splinters when you go back in it or it fucking doesnt, you cant have it both ways.
>This one guy is going to keep spamming this thread for weeks, if not months
Looking forward to it, thanks.
there's also earths were the nazis won, one where vampires took over, one full of zombies. you expect the Avengers to constantly be hopping through infinite universes?
No, moron, you can't change another universe's timeline "with impunity", it still follows the exact same rules. You can't go back to a point that's already "canon" to your perception of history in that timeline.
So theres now a timeline where Dormammu kills the earth and Ego destroys the universe.
Instead of having temporary alternate realities that fold back into the main one, they just murdered an uncountable number of living creatures. Fucking great. Cool!
Retards like Op are why we have standardized tests.
Those timelines retroactively never happened--AS THE MOVIE EXPLAINED IN PAINFUL DETAIL.
The difference is this is their fault directly, they caused it. They're responsible for it.
Yes i know, but apparentl the Russos decided to say otherwise now, which means the Avengers are mass killers.
The only way they come out of this movie still heroic if its one timeline that self corrects, otherwise the inherent mechanics that come into play would make them fucking monsters.
It's almost like the OP has already decided that he's right and this entire thread is just a pointless exercise in retards trying to prove they're more right than other retards, with nobody actually being convinced of anything.
No, you're both stupid.
>Dormammu kills the earth
They put the timestone back, so Strange still bargains.
>Ego destroys the universe.
Ego never learns Quill is his son and can't accomplish his plan without another celestial worth of energy.
They're only travelling on THEIR timeline. Any changes they make make new branches, but they are still only able to go to points on their own branch.
It's not about avoiding creating new timelines, it's going to happen. They only return the stones so those timelines aren't fucked. They may be fucked down the line by something else, but not having their stones at all would really screw them, potentially.
Though if the main reality needs the stones again, they should just take all the stones from reality where Thanos left in 2014, since that reality owes them a big one
Russos have been talking openly about Secret Wars. THIS is how you do Secret Wars.
One of the geniuses in these realities will see that people have messed with timelines and it will all fucking converge.
And it will be Dr. Doom who figures this out.
>I'm sorry, I can't help you. If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.
>With all due respect, I'm not sure the science really supports that."
>The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones and that flow splits. Now this may benefit your reality but my new one, not so much. In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions will suffer. So tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?
>No, but we can erase it. Because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So chronologically, in that reality, it never left.
When the Ancient One talks about the timeline splitting, she isn't talking about the main MCU timeline splitting into her timeline, she's talking about her own timeline splitting into the timeline where Doctor Strange didn't have the Time Stone to defeat Dormammu. The glowing timeline isn't the main MCU timeline. It's the 2012 timeline. The black timeline is the timeline where the Time Stone is never returned, dooming her reality to Dormammu. I think this is why some people are confused. Returning the stones doesn't eliminate the alternate timelines, they only eliminate the potential nasty branch realities like the one where Dormammu wins. In the 2012 timeline Loki escapes with the Tesseract, in the 2014 timeline Thanos and his army just vanishes and the Guardians never form, etc.
>time travel causes problems down the line
>this moron thinks doom is the big bad
cmon son
thought i do think it would be very funny to have him ranting about how he made a superior time platform before the Avengers time traveled
no, seriously, did you just have to piss through the whole movie
they expained exactly why what you're saying isn't how time shenanigans worked (ancient one/hulk plot) and you just...fucking ignore it
even when it is exactly how the russo brothers explain it
>They may be fucked down the line by something else
Once the gems are brought back, the situation should be restored for good. And even if it is a parallel timeline, the events should be the same.
The only unknown is Loki,
This post pretty much. Avengers created the alternate realities and branches of time by JUST by going back there anyway. The second they stepped onto those points in time and started interacting with others and their environment, it already creates a branch of another reality.
In the 2012 Avengers Reality in the Alternate Timeline, because of Prime Steve, AT Steve now knows Bucky is alive 2 years before because he is told of this for example.
Ancient One knows of the future past her death as well now. That reality is going to be PRETTY drastically different than the Prime MCU by the time Thanos enters the picture.
Jesus christ, you're so retarded. You seem to think it has a fixed point of reference for time. If you go from time 'x' in Reality A to time 'y' in Reality B, where 'y < x' and then leave back to your starting point, you moved "back in time" but are moving forward in this new reality and in your original one, as both now gave a separate time rererence. If you then go back to Reality B, at time 'x+n' where n is literally any amount of time passed, then you moved to the future relative to your last time coordinate in Reality B. You can't ever move to the actual past.
I am really glad you aren't a physicist or a scientist who actually has to work with abstract models that don't fit your retarded and assbackwards autistic mindset.
>>They put the timestone back, so Strange still bargains.
Going back in time splinters, so theres now a timeline where Dormammu eats earth.
Doom will likely figure out that it was the OG Avengers who fucked shit up and caused the biggest problems across the multiverse by messing with the main timeline.
If anything, the dude will be seen as a hero by everybody else other than the prime timeline ppl.
We know you put a lot of effort into it, and you really want mommy to put it up on the fridge, but it's fucking wrong, Timmy, and mommy doesn't reward failures.
Again, not how it works.
>The glowing timeline isn't the main MCU timeline. It's the 2012 timeline. The black timeline is the timeline where the Time Stone is never returned, dooming her reality to Dormammu.
Then what is the orange line at that point, if it's not the main MCU timeline, and not the Ancient One's 2012 timeline?
Can you answer that?
Either time splinters when you go back or it doesnt.
You literally cant have it both ways.
See , because you seem to have skimmed it the first time.
Pretty much. Avengers' presence in the past and their actions/inactions already cause a branch. It will not be the same reality.
It could be a very similar reality depending on the effect, but it won't be the same. Looking at the butterfly effect though, the endpoint could be drastically different.
Again, this is awesome stuff because it creates a whole new level of storytelling in the future.
>what is the orange line at that point, if it's not the main MCU timeline, and not the Ancient One's 2012 timeline?
>The glowing timeline isn't the main MCU timeline. It's the 2012 timeline.
Reading is tough, I know, but maybe one day you'll manage to get to a point where you could get a 1st grade book report done.
When you go back, it creates a branch. The point where you entered that branch is no longer "back", in time, it's a concurrent timeline relative to your own. You no longer have to go "back" to get to it, so it's not branching.
So you are saying that when Banner takes the Stone, it creates a 3rd timeline? And that when it is returned, there is one less?
Motherfucker that doesnt MATTER.
Time Travel IS STILL Time Travel. Otherwise you're saying that all the bullshit problems they brought up IN the movie about how Time Travel DOESNT work would be completely moot and you could modify another timeline with impunity without splitting it.
Just accept that the split timeline shit inevitably makes the Avengers mass killers who doomed at least one alternate timeline, probably two, maybe even three. Either its one timeline which self corrects or time splits by time travel and they committed genocide.
Even if that were true, you're still wrong because Hulk still says they're making Cap travel to the EXACT MOMENT they were taken, which would be impossible for concurrently running timelines, so its STILL time travel.
It works off reference points. There is no absolute measure of time in the MCU, much like there is no absolute reference point in space. You aren't going to the past by going back into a splinter timeline, but to the relative future.
>or time splits by time travel and they committed genocide.
Honestly, is it genocide when you are literally creating entire populated dimension, just lacking a certain number of people?
That sounds like the opposite of Genocide.
>Main Timeline
Snappening
5 year time skip
avengers go quantum
come back out with AU stones
UnSnappening
finale fight
>AU 1
Hulk takes time stone, Cap takes mind stone, IM and Ants fumble their play
Quantum Jump out
Cap returns the stones
End Result: Loki is out there (does he give thanos the tesseract? not likely since he still lost the scepter and the invasion but whatever)
AU 2
Cap and Tony in the 70's
take tesseract and pym particles
Quantum Jump Out
Cap returns the space stone
End Result: Pym's research gets delayed a bit, Howard maybe is a bit less of a dick, who knows
AU3
Thor and Rocket get aether, Frigga could give a damn about knowing her future, Hammer gets taken too
Quantum Jumps
Cap returns and returns reality stone and hammer
End Result: could go either way, dark elves dont need to abduct Jane, maybe frigga doesn't die after all
AU4
Rhodes takes orb, Clint gets SOUL stone, nebula gets jack shit
blue girl switcheroo
Quantum Jump out
Quantum Jump all of Thanos' army, doesn't even bother to send Ronan and Korath to Morag since he got 2023nebula himself
Cap returns power and soul stone and tells red skull to fuck himself probably
End Result: no GotG, but also no Thanos to deal with at all, Xandar probably deals with Ronan easily
AU5
2023Cap jumps to 1945 or so right as WW2 Cap gets icicled, lives his live with peggy, probably meets his fresh self in 2011, bounces sometime after 2016 when peggy dies
Just banner / avengers being there creates a branch already. There could be millions of possible branches from that moment, just like how you make your everyday decisions, simple as that.
So Avengers Being there creates >1 branches.
Yes because it was originally the main timeline and the original and the splinter are equally valid.
it's fiction lol it can be whatever they want. "each time we go back we save one billion aborted babies" doesn't that bring a smile to your retarded face
They're going into the future though. The splinter after the point where they arrived is no longer "the past".
No, there'd be 9 alternate realities because Cap travelling back in time to the exact moment the stones were taken would create a new one.
Its fiction doesnt mean its exempt from criticism due to poorly thought out writing.
Then it isnt concurrent, which makes it time travel again.
No. When they land in 2012 for the first time, it creates a branch timeline. They leave that timeline with the stone and return to the prime timeline. The branch timeline is now a tangible alternate universe. As long as they return to the branch timeline after the point where they left, it doesn't create a new branch timeline.
The only question here is AU1 and AU2. It's quite possible that they're actually the same, but they create different branching points. So the Tesseract that Cap puts back in will be taken by Loki in that reality's future by Loki when Tony and Ant-Man fuck up.
>So you are saying that when Banner takes the Stone, it creates a 3rd timeline? And that when it is returned, there is one less?
Yes. The 2012 timeline heals itself (Dormammu doesn't win) but Loki still steals the Tesseract, Cap knows Bucky is alive and Hydra thinks Cap is their ally.
Just accept that you're wrong, idiot. You bring up "with impunity" again, so I can only assume you skimmed too.
Right, and possibly more.
So we're looking at AT LEAST 9 different branches from the main timeline of Thanos Snappening.
Good god, you're again thinking in absolute terms.
Time is relative only to the reality you're moving through.
This means if you're in point X in Reality A and move to X+N (doesn't matter if you leave for a new reality in between) you're moving into the future, as are all things.
Do you understand?
Practical example:
If they leave the splinter in 1970 and return in 1971, time moved forward in relation to when they were there last time. This is the future of that reality, and not the past of their reality (which causes branching).
Look we already proved you're stupid with the Russo and McFeely interviews, do you need to keep coming up with retarded shit every day?
>No, there'd be 9 alternate realities because Cap travelling back in time to the exact moment the stones were taken would create a new one.
No, because you're retarded and that's not how it works.
This was meant for this sorry
Wrong, if it runs concurrently then travelling back to the moment they took the stones is now in that timelines past, splintering it again.
IF IT FOLLOWS THE SAME RULES THEN GOING BACK TO THE EXACT MOMENT THE STONES WERE TAKEN WOULD JUST FUCKING SPLINTER IT AGAIN.
If its concurrent, then time fucking passed since they took the stones, which means going back to the "EXACT" moment they were taken is time travel, which would split the timeline again.
If it ISNT concurent, then you'd have to travel back in time to that moment anyway, which is time travel, which splits the timeline again.
And thats what Hulk told Cap to do. Go back to the "EXACT MOMENT" the stones were taken. So either fucking way, its time travel, which would split the timeline again, which would doom multiple timelines.
How is this shit better or simpler than just being one self-correcting timeline governed by the stones? This is a god damn mess that raises horrific implications.
Let's all just leave. OP is mentally incapable of understanding basic bitch DBZ time travel rules and can't be reasoned with.
Wait why did they doom three universe?? Loki escaping is the closest to “dooming” anything and that’s probably just end up making a better Thor 2 movie. At worst Starlord’s dad won’t be fighting against the GotG but Starlord is only well known because he’s part of the GotG and his dad even said he only found him cause of tales of Starlord
DBZ time travel rules are total nonsense written by a guy who hasnt given a shit about the quality of his writing since the mid 80s, and its not in any possible way "simple", its extremely convoluted stupid bullshit that makes no sense.
Why can't they just make a billion timelines over and over again and get so many stones that they're basically true gods its not like its their problem what happens to those timelines after
Cap coming back to the "exact" moment they took the stones isn't Cap coming back to the moment where they assumed possession of the stones, but to the moment where they left the timeline. So, one second, Hulk leaves the timeline with the Time Stone in hand, the next second, Cap is in the timeline with the Time Stone in hand. There's no point where the Time Stone exists twice in the same timeline, Cap doesn't interfere at all with Hulk's history in the timeline.
Simple shit.
Which is time travel. Which splits the timeline.
Here's another visual example.
Mr AllCaps, stop thinking in absolute terms, and stop being stupid. We already proved you're wrong yesterday, we're again proving you're wrong today. In the relative future.
>Going back in time creates an alternate universe that will never ever go away
It's literally paradox-proof, what's the problem?
The movie itself specially, explicitly, overtly said the reason why they replaced the stones at the exact moment they were taken to prevent the creation of a timeline where the stones are missing.
It doesn’t matter if you think this violates causality, or if it should create a new timeline, or if you want to pick it apart by arguing that it’s got to split, the Russo’s and the movie have both said that’s how the timeline and time travel work. A new timeline is created by traveling through time. Replacing a stone in the timeline at the moment it’s taken does not split the timeline.
That’s not negotiable. That’s not up got argument. Replacing a stone in the moment is taken prevents the timelines from splitting - that’s literally how the movie says it works.
Hulk said exact moment they were taken, which would mean time travel either way you cut it.
Because they fucking doomed billions to die.
well done, user
Yeah i know, but the Russos said otherwise and contradicted their own movie, so now theres this giant fucking mess where the Avengers are now mass murderers.
That's not what the movie says.
Shut up Mr Allcaps, you misunderstood the scenes.
>>Shut up Mr Allcaps, you misunderstood the scenes.
You inserted meaning and headcanon that wasnt there into a scene that was extremely simple, retard.
Taken from that reality, yes?
>each reality's messing around with was fixed and ended exactly at the end of the movie.
Except for the 2014 reality that no longer has a Thanos, which is basically a win for them anyway.
It only splinters when you attempt to enter into a timeline you already experienced at an earlier point in time. Cap is coming back to the branch timeline at a later point than when he left, so it doesn't splinter.
>Because they fucking doomed billions to die.
That doesn't break the logic of the movie its just not their problem. that universe's avengers can deal with it who cares
user. No. Thats fucking stupid.
If that was how it worked you could just fuck with an alternate timeline as much as you wanted and create billions of paradoxes without splitting it.
That makes them horrible heroes and terrible people.
Let's see:
You misunderstand the movie dialogue.
You deny the directors and screenwriters' words.
You create inexistent inconsistencies off your misunderstanding of the mechanics, and can't grasp that alternate pasts aren't your past.
You also try to push your mistakes onto others.
user, analyze your own behavior, please.
>The Avengers directly murdered sextillions of people.
Point of order:
You can jump forward in time without splintering time, because that's straight up what Scott does. Scott went forward in time 5 years from his perspective, but because he went forward, there was no split. It's not "any and all time travel" causes a split, it's attempting to go into your own past exclusively that does it.
If time travel splits time, then theres at least one timeline where Ancient One never gets the time stone back, which means Dormammu kills earth.
This might also mean that Ego kills another universe.
>billions of paradoxes
You can't create paradoxes by moving into the future.
The future is always relative to the reality you're in, not your previous reality.
You can only create paradoxes by moving into your own past and having it not split.
Which we know can't happen, because going to the past creates a new timeline.
>user. No. Thats fucking stupid.
>If that was how it worked you could just fuck with an alternate timeline as much as you wanted and create billions of paradoxes without splitting it.
No, you can't "just fuck with an alternate timeline as much as you wanted", because you inserting yourself into the timeline now causes it to be part of your past. You can still only go forward from the first point you inserted yourself into that timeline, so you can't generate paradoxes even within alternate timelines.
This guy just seems to think that staying in the new timeline means you're in the past. He doesn't understand that by nature of splitting that is no longer your past.
Astounding retardation.
SO WHEN THEY RETURNED THE STONES IT SPLIT THE TIMELINE AND ONE OF THEM DORMAMMU FUCKING ATE.
Which means that Dormammu ate the earth of that Ancient One we saw.
Again you're ignoring the point this raises of "does that mean you can just fuck with that timeline now and not cause it to split but still cause paradoxes".
Because thats retarded.
>SO WHEN THEY RETURNED THE STONES IT SPLIT THE TIMELINE AND ONE OF THEM DORMAMMU FUCKING ATE.
No, because from Cap's perspective, he landed forward in time from the last point he experienced that timeline. Traveling forward doesn't splinter time.
But thats fucking stupid and doesnt make any sense.
>still cause paradoxes
user, can you cause a paradox by going to sleep and waking up tomorrow?
You can't. Because that's the future relative to "now".
The "now" in the alternate timelines is the point where they arrived, from that point they're moving to the FUTURE. You can't create paradoxes like that.
>Again you're ignoring the point this raises of "does that mean you can just fuck with that timeline now and not cause it to split but still cause paradoxes".
No. No, I'm not. I explicitly countered that.
You can't cause a paradox, because attempting to travel backwards in that timeline would cause a new branch timeline. You can travel back to that timeline as long as you only ever do so forward in time relative to the last point you left it from.
>that doesn't make sense
I kind of want to see you read about tachyon murder just to see a brainlet wrapping a sub-90 IQ around such a simple thing.
It makes sense to almost everyone in this thread.
Guess who's the odd man out?
They have to travel back in time to return the stones because Hulk said he went back to the exact points they were taken. If they run concurrently, that necessitates time travel, if they dont, again necessitates time travel. Either way its time travel, either way it splits time.
>because attempting to travel backwards in that timeline would cause a new branch timeline
WHICH IS EXACTLY MY FUCKING POINT.
THAT MEANS THEY CAUSED DORMAMMU TO FUCKING EAT AN ALTERNATE EARTH.
user if you can just fuck with another timelines history and not cause it to split just because you're not from it, that is fucking dumb.
>THAT MEANS THEY CAUSED DORMAMMU TO FUCKING EAT AN ALTERNATE EARTH.
That is not what it means, because Cap traveling to the point AFTER Hulk leaves is not traveling BACK in that timeline. It's traveling FORWARD relative what the Avengers did in that timeline.
It's like watching Limmy.
youtube.com
You're misinterpreting the word "taken" to mean he needs to arrive the moment his counterpart arrives to physically take the thing from wherever it was placed, but that's impossible (can't immediatelly replace the Aether into portman when Rocket takes it out, for instance).
However, arriving when they're taken from that reality makes sense and causes no issues.
But it IS them time travelling relative to THAT universe because they're from the fucking future no matter how you cut it.
Yes. Arriving after the stones are taken from a reality means arriving after the avengers last left, how is it so hard for this guy to get it? Honestly, I give up.
Not that universe's future. The moment it branched, their future ceased to be its future.
Do you understand that?
If you make a branch in river then it won't arrive at the same place.
Yeah, but "relative to that universe" isn't the important part. It's only "relative to your own history" that matters.
>>Not that universe's future. The moment it branched, their future ceased to be its future.
It doesnt fucking matter, they're still from the future travelling backwards in time.
The way you're presenting it, they'd be able to fuck up at any point in this timelines history without causing a branch to occur just because they're from another timeline, because from their perspective it would still be the present. and not their past.
Which is fucking stupid because, again, that'd mean they could fuck up that alt. timeline as much as they want without causing another split branch, which makes no sense.
what's very funny is the sorcerer supreme one is the only one that makes sense. Hulk leaves Universe-2012 at 12:01 with the stone and Cap shows up in Universe-2012 at 12:02 to return it. the failing is in trying to apply that scenario to all of them.
Universe-2012 still will have Loki on the loose with the Tesseract, HYDRA thinking that Cap is one of them, and Cap suspecting Bucky is alive.
They would be able to fuck with any point in that timeline without causing branches as long as it was after they first arrived and they didn't move back at all.
Why?
>BECAUSE IT'S AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE IT'S NO LONGER THEIR FUTURE
>THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE REFERENCE OF TIME
>NO
>ABSOLUTE
>POINT
>OF
>REFERENCE
Being from the future doesn't matter, it's not that REALITY'S FUCKING FUTURE, you inbred retard.
>Which is fucking stupid because, again, that'd mean they could fuck up that alt. timeline as much as they want without causing another split branch, which makes no sense.
Again, no they can't. Once you've fucked with an alternate timeline once, it's now part of your personal history and now abides by the same rules as your own universe. If Cap attempted to go back and stop Loki from escaping with the Tesseract, he'd create a branch timeline. If Cap enters the timeline the picosecond after Hulk leaves, it won't branch the timeline. Notice the relative terms there. To Cap, the first example is "back" and the second example is "after". That's the important part.
But they DID movie back because they went back to the time when the stones were taken, per Banners words, that MEANS time travel no matter fucking what.
Either time runs concurrently between them now, which means time travel to go back to that point, or it DOESNT, WHICH STILL FUCKING MEANS TIME TRAVEL.
>Being from the future doesn't matter, it's not that REALITY'S FUCKING FUTURE, you inbred retard.
WHICH DOESNT FUCKING MATTER BECAUSE ITS STILL THAT REALITIES PAST YOU FUCKING MORON.
I don't know what that guy's talking about, since Steve is going back in time both times.
BUT
It is explicitly stated that removing one of the stones creates an alternate timeline. The Ancient One even drew a picture to illustrate it. And Banner used that picture to illustrate that returning the stone undid that alternate timeline. Everyone here is overthinking this WAY too much. In each new alternate timeline, the stones were removed and immediately replaced, which means there is no lasting difference between the sequence of events of those timelines and the original timeline. They are for all intents and purposes the same as the main timeline.
Except for the one where Thanos went into the future five years and never came back, anyway.
Its impossible for the stones to be replaced in all the timelines, because going back in time would by its very nature split the timeline again into two new ones, one where the stones are returned, and one where they're not, created directly due to the Avengers actions.
>again misinterpreting
The funny thing is I already explained this bit and you ignored it.
YOU ARE ACTIVELY IGNORING THE GLARING FUCKING LOGICAL HOLES IN THIS.
Accurate.
Only if they arrive before the stones are taken from their reality.
If they arrive after the stones are taken from their native realities, it works as intended.
He really is Limmy. It's like talking to a kilogramme of bricks.
There isn't a glaring hole in anything except your cerebral cortex.
You're actively ignoring the fact multiple people addressed these "GLARING LOGICAL HOLES", and yet you keep swinging between retarded arguments which were already refuted.
Man I sure do love arguing about time travel now instead of doubling resources. Thanks for this awful internet debate Russo brothers
They straight up say in the movie that taking the stones splits timelines, but putting them back at the exact time prevents that split. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
That's not actually how it works, confirmed in an interview by the Russos. Every instance of traveling back into a point in your own history creates an alternate timeline. If Captain America went back in time twenty seconds to slap himself on the ass and left, it would cause a branch timeline.
The Ancient One was talking about preventing a timeline from splintering off into Shuma Gorath's fucktown or something.
>going back in time would by its very nature split the timeline again
Again, the Ancient One specifically said that removing one of the stones branches the timeline. Not "your being here creates an alternate reality", just "removing one of the stones creates an alternate timeline". Explicitly, specifically stated.
Furthermore, it was illustrated by the Sorcerer Supreme, who then validated Bruce fucking Banner's hypothesis that returning the stone would fix everything. There is no need for you, or anyone else, to question such an explicitly stated plot point. In the story, on the screen, the smartest man on earth and the wisest woman on earth agreed that you are wrong.
>IF IT FOLLOWS THE SAME RULES THEN GOING BACK TO THE EXACT MOMENT THE STONES WERE TAKEN WOULD JUST FUCKING SPLINTER IT AGAIN.
My god, how could anyone be so stupid?
The largest differences between the 6 different timelines in which they took the stones is their temporary absence to fix the main one. But as soon as that's done, each of these stones is put back in, so technically EVERYTHING that happens in them happens the way we already saw in 616 with very slight differences.
The only two wildly differing timelines are Morag's (because their Thanos died, hence no Infinity War) and 2012's, because Loki teleports away with the Space Stone. Other than that, everything happens exactly as we know.
>this isnt time travel
The point you're still wrestling with is the assertion that every instance of time travel creates a branch. That's not true.
Yes user i know, im just going by the dipshit "being here splits time" logic to point out how fucking stupid it is and the problems it causes.
That's your misinterpretation of the Banner/Ancient One exchange, the Russos and the scriptwriters contradicted this idea, and most of the public is under the assumption it works more or less how the Russos intended it to work - as seen in how basically every article written about the movie interprets it the correct way.
Furthermore, I question your intelligence, given you kept ignoring basic refutations of your arguments.
yeah whatever nerds, it's a movie about kids picture books
EITHER IT FUCKING DOES OR IT DOESNT.
user we've gone over this, the Ancient One clearly was referring to Banners timeline when she made the display.
It doesn't cause any problems, branches only occur if you move into the past.
Moving to the future doesn't create branches, you just seem to fail to grasp what the future is.
BUT WHEN THEY RETURN THE FUCKING STONES THEY GO BACK IN TIME AGAIN YOU FUCKING MORON.
NO MATTER HOW THEY DO IT THEY STILL HAVE TO TIME TRAVEL TO DO IT WHICH WOULD SPLIT TIME AGAIN WHICH WOULD DOOM AT LEAST ONE TIMELINE.
Traveling backwards relative to your own history causes branches. Traveling forward relative to your own history doesn't. And, no, that's not relative in terms of calendar dates, it's relative to the timeline you experienced.
They don't go back in time again relative to their experience of the timeline.
This logic makes no sense, again, because it implies you can change the past of another timeline without causing a branch to occur.
Shut the fuck up before you even say it, yes it would be changing that timelines past, because they were already in its past, and they travelled back to their future which became their present which would mean going back in time again would take them to that timelines past again. Dipshit.
Only if they return it to the past.
The future of that timeline isn't the past, do you understand?
If you go back to July 25 1934, creating a new reality, come back to today, then go back to July 26 1934 of that other reality --- you didn't move to the past!
Past and future are relative, they're not absolute.
You're thinking of the term "past" as an absolute point relative to the main timeline. It's not. In all these examples, "past" refers to the character's past experiences.
I thought it was specifically removing the stones only creates branches...
Depends of the kind of fiction it is. There could be stable time loops where changes to the past change literally nothing, because they were always there. Or there could be branching where every instance of time travel puts you into an offshot timeline, and it's usually impossible to go back. There could be both like in Homestuck, or there could be any other retarded type like in back to the future where the timeline itself gets changed and reality transforms to match in an oddly specific and non physically violent process, such as visual fade.
What?
Of course it doesn't imply that.
If you move to a point before you first arrived you would create another branch.
Jesus fucking christ you people are as dense as bedrock.
Yeah, and? That timeline still exists according to you fucking retards so going back to return the stones is still time travel relative to THAT reality, which would still fucking split it.
user, they went back to their own time, which is the future, which means that alternate timeline also experienced its own future. Meaning going back would go back to their past again.
Oh shut the fuck up, either you have rules or you dont.
It is, or at least the movie said it is, but the Directors said it isnt, so who fucking knows.
So these alternate timelines dont exist unless you're in them? Because thats the only way this retarded shit would work.
>Oh shut the fuck up, either you have rules or you dont.
I've been very clear about the rules. You're just denser than a kilogramme of steel.
>misinterpretation
user, this couldn't possibly be more clearly stated in the film.
Banner plainly states that they can erase the alternate timeline by returning the stone, and the Ancient One agrees. The super-simple diagram that's on screen for people like you even shows the alternate timeline going away. That's how it works in the story. The script is finished, the movie is finished, the story is over, and you don't get a vote.
>Yeah, and? That timeline still exists according to you fucking retards so going back to return the stones is still time travel relative to THAT reality, which would still fucking split it.
You don't go "back" to travel to the alternate timelines. Now that they're part of your personal history, you're traveling forwards in them relative to where you entered.
>>You don't go "back" to travel to the alternate timelines. Now that they're part of your personal history, you're traveling forwards in them relative to where you entered.
BUT IT ISNT FORWARD RELATIVE TO THAT TIMELINE AND THE THINGS IN IT YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
Take this as our starting point:
Doug from 2019 in Reality A moves to 1934. Reality B is thus created.
Doug returns to 2019.
Case 1 -
Doug moves back to Reality B, to the year 1935. He is in the relative future, no branches appear.
Case 2 -
Doug moves to the year 1933 in Reality B. This is actually the same as 1933 in Reality A, which is the relative past and so a branch appears, reality C.
Case 3 -
Doug moves to the year 1934 in Reality B again, and tries to greet his past self.
This is the relative past (should be self evident given Doug was there), a branch appears, creating Reality D.
Case 4 -
Doug moves to 1934 Reality B, one second after his past self leaves. This is the relative future, so no branches occur.
But wouldn't traveling back in time to that point create a split time line where one continues without the stones and one is fixed by cap returning the stones?
The script writers and directors called and they think you're retarded.
>which means that alternate timeline also experienced its own future. Meaning going back would go back to their past again.
As long as they don't experience that future, it's not part of their past. Loki fucking off with the Tesseract now means that timeline's future is not the main timeline's past.
>BUT IT ISNT FORWARD RELATIVE TO THAT TIMELINE
To quote a complete fucking idiot:
>Yeah, and?
user, follow me here its very simple.
If the timeline exists independent of the other, then time ran concurrently, meaning going back to the moment the stones were taken out (which Hulk explicitly orders Cap to do), would cause a split because that is the past now.
If it DOESNT run concurrently, then it cant possibly be independent, which means either it was erased at the end of the movie, or going to the future is still relative to that past and going back to that past is still time travel.
So you're a complete retard?
Then that splits the timeline AGAIN. Because its that Timelines relative past now.
See:
No, because from Cap's perspective, it's no longer "back". He personally experienced 2012B as part of his own continuity. Traveling forwards in his continuity along the 2012B line is now moving forwards rather than back.
BUT IT WOULD BE THE FUCKING PAST RELATIVE TO THAT NEW TIMELINE YOU FUCKING IDIOT, SO IT WOULD STILL FUCKING SPLIT.
How did they send Cap back to those alternate timelines anyway? So the time machine is beyond regular 4-dimensional time travel? It's 5-dimensional? They can pick which AU they go to?
>that is the past now
Again it isn't.
If the stones are taken at moment X and they arrive at X+1, they're not in the past.
>stones are taken at moment X, meaning the avengers LEAVE at moment X
>cap returns at moment X+1
Is it that hard?
You're super married to this absolute perspective of "the past" that just straight up isn't how the movie views it. Things are going to continue not to make sense until you can get over that.
Yes it is, because either that timeline simply freezes when they leave, meaning it isnt independent, meaning its like the ancient one said either a branch to be clipped or that its in fact IN THE PAST, which means time travel.
OR
Time runs concurrently, which means going back to the moment you left is, ding ding ding, time travel.
You two are fucking idiots who dont get the problem here.
The problem is that if this timeline is seperate and what was once the main timelines past is now its present, then time still fucking passed while the Avengers were doing future shit, which means going back to the exact point they took the stones is in that timelines relative past now, which would split it.
And if it ISNT running concurrently, then that means that IS from that timelines past, which means going back to it is time travel, which would split it.
user, take a moment to consider:
>Scenario A: OP is right and the Avengers are creating shit tier doomed timelines left and right
>Scenario B: OP is wrong and the time travel is designed in such a way that the Avengers can fix everything no problem
Guess which one the screenwriters are going to pick.
I'm more worried about the main timeline desu, if removing even one stone is bad juju according to the ancient one then what does it mean for the mainline that Old Thanos dusted ALL of their stones?
The only way Scenario B works is if, as the ancient one explained, its one timeline thats only split by removing the stones but becomes one timeline again if you put it back, which i was fine with.
But the Russo brothers said otherwise, which raises a lot of questions and logical problems.
>time runs concurrently
Again, there is no absolute time reference user.
>time freezes when they leave
I understand it's hard to grasp by using what we usually consider time to be, but even our own time doesn't work how you seem to understand it.
There is no "continuous flow of time", user. Time as they use is a coordinate. A dimension representing the universe's state.
Even our own reality doesn't work as you seem to assume.
Wrong, the Russos explained that those alternate timelines persist.
What you're not getting is that the passage of time relative to the two timelines isn't the important part whatsoever. As long as a character doesn't attempt to retread their own continuity, it doesn't branch. You keep looking at the wrong scale to say "this doesn't work!" when the movies aren't concerned with that scale in the slightest.
Cap does not do a causal loop, this is confirmed by the Russos.
The only way Scenario B works is if it works exactly the way several people have spent the last two hours explaining to you how it works.
If there is no absolute reference of time then there is no such thing as past, future, or present, meaning any excursion will split it because any encounter is time travel.
You're correct, i forgot to remove that.
I realy dont get how all this shit is somehow supposed to be simpler and more to the point than pic related
Except it doesnt because of the fucking rules they mentioned. Either the rules work or they dont.
If time travel causes a split branch then you keep splitting the branches when you travel back. If they dont, then its a single timeline that corrects itself. Those are the only two possible scenarios here.
You keep saying "when you travel back" and variants. This is you just continually refusing to look at it from the correct perspective. To Cap, the moment after Hulk left 2012B is "the future" because he experienced a period of time in 2012B prior to it.
You keep fucking saying "from caps perspective" but you're ignoring that he's still travelling through fucking time.
The timeline he's travelling through has a different perspective, and Cap is actively changing its past no matter how you slice it. How do you marry the two?
Okay, I'm going to go full retard on you:
Given your previous state in a certain universe, if you move towards greater entropy you don't create a branch;
otherwise, if you move towards lesser entropy you create a branch, meaning you move to another universe.
You should be able to solve this.
I read that interview, they did exist for time but now they don't.
>If there is no absolute reference of time then there is no such thing as past, future, or present, meaning any excursion will split it because any encounter is time travel.
If there is no absolute reference of time then only the personal references of time are important. And that's exactly the case.
THEN WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE ALTERNATE TIMELINES IF ALL THAT MATTERS IS YOUR INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVE OF TIME?
See
He's not traveling through his own time, so it doesn't cause a split. That's the entire point of them spending several minutes on Hulk saying "This doesn't work like Back to the Future". You keep arguing as though it is Back to the Future, and that's where you're fucking up.
I suppose thats a better take, but that still isnt referencing mechanics mentioned in the movie.
Because being able to travel into your own actual past would break the continuity of your perception of time. The alternate timelines have to exist specifically because it's all based on personal reference.
It's almost like Secret Wars is set in motion...
What ive been arguing literally isnt back to the future you illiterate retard.
But why would it break your perception of time if you already had those experiences and there is no actual constant in reference to the states of time? There'd be no need for alternate timelines because nothing could change how you've already percieved time, even going back to your own history, because that would have no effect on you.
Because the only way you could experience the events of your past differently from how you experienced them the first time is in an alternate timeline.
>What ive been arguing literally isnt back to the future you illiterate retard.
It is, in terms of how you're viewing the idea of past, present, and future as absolute fixed points across all time travel.
But if all that matters is perception, theres no need for an alternate reality because there is no need for external continuity.
Shut up retard and go learn how to actually read.
Again, see:
It fixes any and all issues you might have and is consistent with that guy's explanation.
>But if all that matters is perception, theres no need for an alternate reality because there is no need for external continuity.
Your perception is the continuity. There's no outside force confirming your history happened this way, but your own perception confirms it. So your past can't change because it's a fixed path from your perspective.
>>Your perception is the continuity. There's no outside force confirming your history happened this way, but your own perception confirms it. So your past can't change because it's a fixed path from your perspective.
So what is the need for external continuity in the form of tangible identifiable alternate timelines for ones perceptions to exist inside rather than simply having that perception stand on its own independent of externally percieved temporal continuity?
Because the timelines can tangibly interact. If it was just your perception, you couldn't bring your perception of Thanos from one timeline into another if it was all just the one timeline with people perceiving it differently.
Ah, good point.
Now the problem with this is that the dialogue of the movie also presents mechanics that run contrary to this being exclusively how it works.
It all jives with how the Russos have explained it in interview though. The characters in the film speculate at several points, and seem to operate off incomplete information.
Good guess but no. The time machine obviously works by sending its users to a previous point in their timeline, or more accurately, a previous point of the timeline of which the acting time machine resides in. But the thing is, because you can't actually change the past, it's actually just creating a duplicate of that timeline and putting you there, allowing you to do whatever without fucking up your native timeline.
If they take the stones in the alternate timeline at moment X, return to their native timeline, and try to use the machine to go back to moment X+1, the time machine would naturally send them to the moment X+1 of THEIR timeline, not the alternate timeline from which they took the stones. So basically, Capt would appear in front of the Ancient One to return the stone, only to realize she already has it because it was never taken! It never happened in Capt's native timeline so the time machine couldn't possibly send him back to that point!
Wouldn't be the first time. Marvel heroes kind of suck at saving the majority. Remember when they nuked alternate worlds to save their world, and fucking Dr. Doom of all people had to come in and clean up their mess of nuked Earths.
Ego didn't have anything to do with the stones, and since they killed Nebula and snatched Gamore out of that reality the Guardians of the Galaxy never formed and that universe got killed by Ego.
Ego only found out about Quill via the stones.
Without Quill, Ego can't do it.
>all these stupid assumptions
Jesus christ, why? They never say anything of this bullshit you're spouting
To be fair, it IS a time machine, how would it go to other universes?