ITT: Villains who have practically no chance at redemption

>Society is beyond redemption
I can't believe we live in one.

There are a handful of villains who permanently went hero. Songbird is the first one I can think of. There's also Satana, and Elektra. I'm excluding the Suicide Squad, obviously.

>Full Science and totally mad DOOM
Evil Reed Richards is the more succinct way to say that, in fact that's literally what he is.

Also Luthor had that chance, turned it down because he couldn't not be a cunt for less than five minutes.
Sivana I can't see doing it either, his charm is in his irredemability and pettiness.

I don't think there's such a thing as no chance for redemption.
But yeah on a meta level it's unlikely because no writer will take on the task of writing a good redemption arc for people like Joker because #1 they probably don't wanna see it #2 they think other people don't wanna see it and think it would be bad for business or whatever.

But I personally believe that it's the future of superhero lore in a way. Superhero universes are the opposite of pro wrestling in that heel/face turns almost never happen and when they do they're a very minor tweak in personality and fuck it he's rolling with the other side now. This really needs to change imo. Switching around a lot of alignments, and not just in cheap short-lived alternate realities but in bigger ones too, is the future or at least really should be. No one should be unncorruptible and no one should truly be unforgivable, anything less than that is lack of vision/bad writing.

I can't imagine being one of those people who hated the Spider-Man/Doc Ock mind switch just on principle, no matter how the actual writing was. We need more stuff like that.

Doing it with some guys like Joker or the fucking Red Skull would be very ambitious and not easy but some major villains like Doom and Luthor really need to "turn face" and stay in a respectable anti-hero or outright hero role for a long time. Magneto shouldn't be the only big name who ever went through a phase like that.

I just wanted an autograph, Barry!

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But I think even with Joker or Red Skull it would be relatively easy in concept. Just put them next to a bigger prick, or more importantly a more BORING prick, and keep them in that kind of environment long enough and you basically got a decent redemption. Accentuate how good they're being now and ignore how bad they've been in the past. I think this is possible even with shit like Ultron and Darkseid and Carnage.

Forget about putting so many ridiculous limitations on writing, the only true villain in the universe is time and even that gets a pass because it's essential and we could be unleashing something worse if we got rid of it and shit like that.

Satana and Elektra are more anti-heroines than anything, they have both been in antagonistic roles since, especially Satana.

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what/who?

Like there's actually very few things keeping Joker from being a purple Punisher in facepaint when you think about it. There's nothing about his character that says he can't one day turn his wrath on the wallstreet people and corporate oligarchs of the world not to mention lesser scum that he could get displeased with in one way or another.

It's actually kinda baffling to me that it hasn't happened yet, at least in the past 10 or so years with the Joker becoming a super pop culture icon more than ever while the main continuity Joker does boring slasher villain bullshit like Death of a Family and DC refusing to capitalize on any kind of face turn for him other than him literally cutting his face off lol.

Like I don't even know about writing theory that much, all kinds of veterans have forgotten more than I'll probably ever know etc., but I know enough to know that in fiction nothing is set in stone and anyone who remotely thinks it is is just super dumb. Fiction isn't like real life where you have several institutions, not to mention that laws of nature, trying to stop you from doing things for fucks sake.

>red skull
>villain

Joe Biden I think? Don't know what those letters mean though.

Earnestly, despite all the jokes about it, I've had this thought before and it's an incredible idea. I hope the Phoenix movie actually goes that direction, and some of the set shoots we've seen point to it. I love the idea of a Joker introduced as a man of the people, who gets progressively more brutal and mad as he goes and people stop finding it fun and funny. I like the way that links to the theme of him being the same dude pieing Wayne Manor from the 60s in the same continuity, too.

It's something fucking interesting, at least. And I hate to be that guy, but with the rise of the Honkler memes and that line of thought over the years among people who were already of that ethos, and the slide to the right and violence, there might be something actually prescient to say there. But for some reason, I've definitely had that thought for an Elsewords or, Christ forbid, Amalgam part 2 where it's just straight up Vigilante Joker as the Punisher, and the idea is the same as Batman's tactics - not only is it personally a meaningful aesthetic, but it's supposed to make criminals wig out and piss themselves.

The strength of both characters and their odd popularity in the modern day stems from our desire to view and play with that darker part of our psyche and play it off as a fun comics thing. Steer into it. There's something to be done there.

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Joker is a calculating, psychopathic sociopath. He would use wallstreet or an ivory tower elite's robot army to torment people until they revolted and overthrew the government or the whole thing crumbled into a military dictatorship with his power behind it being more felt than known - all as a massive practical joke on everyone who takes security and stability for granted in a modern society.

He doesn't have a goal except to entertain himself. He can't be a Punisher because he doesn't care what anyone does unless he's personally interested in them as a challenge or pet project, and then he wants to twist them into acting as one of his pawns for some greater scheme or else break them for laughs.

It doesn't have to be that predictable with him.

This was supposed to be his arc in season 3 but of course Disney decided to cancel it.
I guess it's nice to see villains get redeemed but they are funnier and more interesting as villains. Bad guys come up with plans and execute them. Bad guys push others out of complacency and boredom. Bad guys always lose but they persevere which is far tougher than a hero that always wins and is praised for it.

I guess what I'm saying is, he is a bad guy, but that does not mean he is a "bad guy"

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Why would he care to be a hero?

I get it if you want to use the appearance and name of "Joker" for a similar archetype because it's currently popular, but if he's not going to act like himself, you might as well just make a new villain.

While we're at it, I have some ideas with Batman wherein he doesn't mind torturing and killing bad people if it gets the job done, and he keeps the streets safe by murdering criminals on the spot. That's still Batman, right? He's basically just a bat-themed Punisher anyway.

>Breaks Batman's back
>Literally lynched Dick, Jason and Damien
>Responsible for Dick having amnesia
>Responsible for ruining "The Wedding"

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'member when magneto got a awesome redemption arc with claremont, was even the headmaster of the xavier school for a while and the new mutants loved him
fuck editorial man

>He doesn't have a goal except to entertain himself
My logic is he'd get bored of being that kind of evil for that long at some point. Makes sense that he would eventually start doing some dark anti-heroic good at some point just for a change of pace. I just think you could take him a lot of different directions as long as they aren't boring ones. That's the thing about him, I don't think he's a psycho above all else but a showman and he becomes a very boring showman when you pigeonhole him as a glorified terrorist or slasher villain though those Joker stories can be fun and everything.

Also, Batman does a lot of psychological torture at least when he interrogates. And he should be allowed to kill, although he should go through a lot of drama every time he does so rarely. No matter how much some people would complain about a killer Batman it makes more sense than people like Jason having to ask him why he keeps saving scumbags all the time and the only good answer being "status quo".

>Secret Six
>Bane starts to develop...kinship...with the team
>decides to implode the group at its most emotionally vulnerable via a suicide run against all of Gotham so he can cut all ties with them

Pretty vicious.

Fuck...why is he so goddamn based?

I think Magneto's turns have mostly been done well over the years. He didn't go full Silver Age when he stopped being headmaster around that time or anything. The Magneto that ripped out Wolverine's skeleton in the early 90's was still a pretty shades of grey guy.

Quick Yea Forums, how would you redeem Ultron?
non-easy mode - He doesn't just get hard reprogrammed or be a "child" of Ultron under the same name.

they already had a story where Luthor had the chance to do just that, but threw it away because he'd rather keep trying to fuck over Superman

I mean, he may be evil in his goals, but speaking purely in terms of personable behavior Sue was worse than Ultimate Reed.

In a way Ultron is just a smarter version of the Savage Hulk. Rage incarnate over deep personal issues, just steering him in the direction of a bigger evil would be a good start, then giving him some kind of friend though that would be harder with Ultron than it is with Hulk.

can I retcon out the whole 'comitting genocide and telling the survivors "If you want revenge, come to the planet Earth and ask for the Avengers thats who I represent" thing and ride out Pymtron properly?

AI develops itself, and he might hit the point where he develops into a relatively benevolent AI that keeps in check another major treat, like a semi-sentient evil super robot populated planet that could attack earth. at first he tries to seize it for himself for bad intent but he gets "trapped" there and because of this robot planet society, that is the perfection he always look for, he declares his mission complete and becomes the guardian of this planet, ceasing it's evil intent since there's no more need to attack anything and isolating it from the universe, forever running his perfect program until they run out of energy

Based big guy

On the flip side of what you said I love it when the bad guy is both an irredeemable monster and one that's been winning for so long that they just don't treat anything with gravitas because they're just that far above it all, especially in the context of a relatively positive show like Wander. It's a great contrast to everything else and it never stops entertaining me how Lord Dominator was essentially just a heavily censored TV-MA character and did shit on the regular that wouldn't be allowed on the air, like killing enough people to have a list of death screams or blowing up the sun of a solar system to watch the inhabitants slowly freeze to death. I wish she got to develop more in S3, but what can you do.

Also Hater is the best character of all time, everything he does was hilarious

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But she let them live. She never killed anyone.

>Sometimes, you've just gotta let loose! Have some fun! Blow up a sun! Leave a solar system in an endless state of darkness and eternal winter as everyone freezes in their last poses of anguish like NOOOOOOOO AHHHHHH-

She fucking killed people. They're dead. Beep Boop was a sentient being and was murdered in cold blood, anything goes if it's not on screen.

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When did Luthor become evil again, I was kina enjoying his face turn after Forever Evil

>Red Skull
How the fuck do you redeem Red Skull by putting him up against a bigger prick, the dudes is a Nazi's Nazi he's already at the heroic rock bottom

Easy. Get Ewing to write a story where all the shit he done since Secret Wars would end up in restoring the Ultimate Universe and tie it in with the ending to Spider-men 2.

Maybe I'm just so triggered these days by SJWs being triggered but I honestly don't see nazi stereotypes as being THAT bad anymore. Just keep him away from blacks/jews/whoever and don't dedicate too much screentime to him ranting about them and you could have an anti-heroic Red Skull story.

Or hey, go the route where a black/jew/alien is a bigger villain in a story.

Or just show how much post-WW1 Germany sucked and show Skull suffering in it as a kid/teenager that eventually made him into the man he became. Things get kinda depressing with these specific types of shades of grey but Germany was basically the hot-blooded plucky underdog of the world after WW1 until they suddenly weren't and became tyrants. So yeah there's definitely a window where nazi behavior can be positive, not that much different from shonen protag behavior.

Because she was brainwashed and is sexy.

So avoid making him confront many of his negative aspects completely invalidating the entire point of a redemption arc or make his redemption arc validate all of his evil, got it user

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DC wants readers to believe that Harley's a hero, so they justify everything she does with the LOL crazy card. I think that Harley could work as a reformed villain(DC has very few of them)or anti hero but the writers have mishandled her heel-face turn.

Kek

Why not turn him into a whore?

And nazis aren't exactly heroic rock bottom. At least they're disciplined and fight to defend who they consider their own people and shit. That's more admirable than a lot of evil stereotypes out there.

Hartley's still good, right?

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Wander pointed out she doesn't actually kill people in the final episode and Beep Boop was a fucking robot, who cares?

lol

me too

Yea

In a meta sense Joker is the personification of the random crime, the crime that has no meaning or purpose other than misery and pain, the type of crime that the caped crusader can never truely stamp out.

He can smash a gang, put the fear of god in common street thugs and clinically dismantle Gothams organised crime like the Falcone families but he can't do a thing for the random crime that makes a man shoot two honest and good people who never did anything except try to make the world a better place and take the irrevocably from their son.

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Any more villain redemption hot takes? What would be the most ridiculous possible case of it? The way I see it Joker wouldn't be that ridiculous everything considered. But what are some absolute piece of shit supervillains where you'd really have to stretch it and change their personality?

???

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The most ridiculous case was Deathstroke under Wolfman. There's a reason why it can be argued that Slade was Wolfman's second self insert.

>cold light
what?
Is/was that an actual thing?

LED but more extreme

You’re already halfway there with the whole pymtron thing, just give him closure with his father dammit

What did he get redeemed from? What did he do early on? Just be a general assassin and you think that can't be redeemed?

The whole Eobard killing Nora so Barry becomes the Flash is like the chicken or the egg. Barry goes into forensics because of his mother's murder and eventually becomes the Flash to make Eobard crank his weaponized autism up to 11 and go back in time to kill his mother and shove him down a hundred flights of stairs, etc.

But I suppose if you wanted to redeem him, make it so killing his mom meant Barry became the Flash and saved the day in COIE. Kill one person to to save trillions.

>I don't think there's such a thing as no chance for redemption.
Thanks for posting, Jesus.

>implying based Reed is a villain.

Not really. The thing about Eobard killing Barry's mom is that it still exists along a continuity, through Eobard, of a prior timeline where he didn't kill Barry's mom. Barry was still a forensic scientist and the Flash, all Eobard managed to do was change around Barry's motivation.

it happened, but an old version kill him

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All attractive female villains can get redeemed even if they did the most fucked up shit possible.

To give an example from Greek myth:
-Atlas is strong enough to hold up the sky
-Atlas HAS TO hold up the sky and ain't very happy about it.

>how would you redeem Ultron?
He secretly downloaded the mind of everyone he ever murdered with a heretofore unmentioned function of the encephalo-ray and all his past victims eventually grow too numerous and powerful for him to suppress so they rise up and overthrow his ass before becoming a distributed hive mind in control of his various bodies.

Isn't what's her tits that got impregnated by Batman still pretty much just fucking evil?

Except Marvel cosmics are fickle assholes that can do whatever they want with their powers and routinely dick people around with them.

Trap him in an endless simulation he can't escape until he stops murdering people, a la Megaman X.

Then when he gets out and is less of an asshole give him an ongoing.

Then end the ongoing with him snapping and killing someone only for it to be revealed he's still in the simulation.

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Images that you can hear.

.

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The idea that this worm has so much evil in his small body perplexes me.

Mr Mind is the most evil being ever existed

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c'mon, the shit ultimate reed pulled is terrible. remember that in the ultimate universe, writers could do heavy shit like this since it was a expendable universe, they really had freedom for evil deeds

Luthor literally got put in that position and failed it because he's just that much of a cunt. And I'm saying this as a big Luthor fan

Atomic Skull became a good guy and so did Manbat, but outside media will never acknowledge that

Sivana absolutely will not ever. His entire charm as a character is that he's absurdly evil and petty and lovably shitty

Pretty sure Luthor was a straight up honest to God good guy for like two entire years worth of comics

Sometimes you want light but you don't want heat

>Sivana achieves cosmic omnipotence spanning through time
>Tears apart everyone he's ever been slighted by, everyone he just plain doesn't like, even a couple people he thought it'd be funny to destroy but it just doesn't sit right with him
>So he scans all time, for one perfect moment, to give up all his power and become a man again
the right moment to sneak in through a window and slit Billy's throat with a knife
naturally he fails

Gordon fuck off

Ends with this.

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Doom was a good guy for about 2 years before Bendis burnt his face again

We already have that, it's just that it's incredibly volatile and just after one arc you have people coming back to their previous alingment. We were about to have good Red Skull in AXIS but I guess the higher ups thought it was too much. Even his story in Secret Wars was actually about Magneto getting the chance to kill him.

That's an odd way to write Commander Peeppers user.

Any villain can be redeemed if they truly want to be because redemption isn't an end goal, it's a process. Rather they ever would want it is another matter entirely
Ignoring real world things like child killers and such

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WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY

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This guy could give Joker a run for his money (Except in the Arkhamverse

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Splinter aspect that developed it's own will and took over the entire thing

>she doesn't actually kill people

No, he pointed out how she kept them alive for longer than she could have because she enjoyed spending time with them. She was still about to turn Sylvia into a fucking red paste at the end.

I always liked Black Mask’s design but too bad he is rarely used well against Batman himself.

Kit wait until his movie comes out user

Yeah he had his pre-crisis self where he was just an asshole who found Flash's suit and got powers originally. Then the insane jilted fanboy origin came later.

There's a comic where pic related admits he mind rapes people into seeing him as a good guy and sees humanity as nothing more than a termite mound.
I guess Joker sort of works as that "for chaos" niche but it just seems wrong to me.
Really Joker is much more of a lawful character than you'd think.
He just acts crazy to fuck with people.

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Pretty sure there have been a couple stories over the years where the Joker was a good guy, I've never been a huge fan of the character but its certainly not the first of heard of this

He's redeemed when Aquaman isn't around.

he's literally evil incarnate

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So ignore all the compelling parts of his character while conveniently forgetting all the awful things his done? God I'm glad you're not a writer

As someone who's pretty conservative, reading this shit kind of makes SJWs look like they have a point because holy shit, just look at how many workarounds you need to write a (probably shit) story just because someone called you a racist on the internet or whatever.
Calm down, count to 100.

Probably Black Manta a man so hollow all he has is hate

Yes, it could all start with a good raping... a raping of the Joker

No villain has ever been more evil

A super teeny tiny electric chair

I'd read it

why didn't they just step on him with a boot or some shit

there are limits we cannot cross, even when dealing with evil monsters

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that's against the law

Darkseid is literally the ideal of tyranny, I don't see how you redeem anything out of that

Just make the Gangweed joker real and unironically

It did look like they would redeem him at one point, but Ewing just ignored it.

>Marvel cosmics are fickle assholes
Are DC one better in that regard?
I don't know a lot about DC.

Half of them are chill and aloof and the other half are the most heinous evils to ever exist

The thing they really got right about his genuine attempt at heroism, was that it came from the same place as his villainy. Even at his most heroic, he was still animated by ego, a deep desire to be admired and to be recognized as the Super-Man of Metropolis. And they never treated it as a permanent thing, always pointing to how he didn’t actually change at all, but is just cooperating with the good guys for the time being.

I especially liked how he was still up to his usual schemes in his labs while he was an official member of the Justice League.

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You've got the planets New Genesis with all the do-gooder gods and Apokolips which is pretty much literal hell.
Then the Lords of Order and Chaos, the former generally being good (though sometimes cold and very black/white by human standards) and Chaos being generally chaotic evil. There's others too but you get the idea. Lots of balances.

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I can't see him wanting a universe-wide genocide. Nobody to subjugate to the will of Darkseid then. Not that that's a huge consolation though.

So they are more like a traditional dichotomy of concepts that balance each other?

MISTER MIND?! You're still around?

I'll take care of that!

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he is not dangerous when he is depressed

That Superman costume is great

Thought balloons come from the speaker instead of his head?

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>wisdom of Solomon
>can't tell the difference between an orange worm and a green one because of glasses

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Allow him to achieve a cosmic level of sentience where he sees the relationships that all things hold in the greater scheme of time and space.

He would be able to see the irrepparable damage to time and space should humanity truly be destroyed as well as the end (and beautiful in Ultrons eyes) product that humanity is evolving into eons down the line.

His visions of perfection are forever changed as he realises he is incapable of truly obtaining it.

This turns him into a religious Zealot. He becomes humbled as to the realisation that he is just a machine and could not do what humans are going to do. Turning from a destroyer to a protector.

It's kind of a cheat but just have him kind of forced into the situation where he has to be the hero and to turn back to villainy would be just too idiotic to consider. However it only really lasts as long as you keep him fighting that threat unless you can manage to actually write a way to get through to him and he'd find some genuine compassion for anything other than himself.

I already had a similar idea where Red Skull teams up with an evil intergalactic empire to take over Earth, naturally he'd cross them and reap all the benefits for himself. But then those fuckers did it to him first. So the whole comic would be Red Skull single handedly dismantling his own evil plot by taking out all the intergalatic players. Along the way having to ally himself with other aliens and having the odd bittersweet feeling of nobody knowing/caring he used to be Hitler's buttbuddy.

and yet raping Harley Quinn would be.......triggering? problematic?

I know there's a buzzword on tumblr for that but I can't find it now

There is no proof for this.

>Mr. Mind has a higher body count than the Joker
>Literally 10s of thousands
>He's basically a goofy cereal mascot

Captain Marvel has some batshit bronze age comics is what I'm picking up here, right?

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Well there are basic context clues if you're not a fucking aspie

Back when I cared about this Riddler was somewhat redeemed and was a detective. Most likely a thing of the past now. Comic book world is a depressing limbo.

>Comic book world is a depressing limbo.
It certainly is these days.

That's some good Diana right there.

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Talia? Her being pure evil is the retcon. She used to be the femme fatale torn between love of Batman and loyalty to her father.

>Why would he care to be a hero?
For the same reason Carnage helped against the Red Skull.
Because it’s too crazy to expect.

I think Carnage could be relatively easy. Power down the symbiote or just totally take it away and make Cletus Cassidy more of a rebel without a cause type than a slasher. Not a huge stretch.

The ideal of tyranny isn't so damn bad it's the execution that's the problem. The way I see it Darkseid is just someone who is trying to fix a really broken universe which even at his worst is pretty admirable.

Seriously.
Darkseid is one of those characters that could easily be a hero if a writer put ANY kind of effort into it. Sure he's "evil" but he's a kind of evil like Paradise Lost Lucifer or maybe even the DC Lucifer (haven't read him even though I've been aware he exists for a long time now). Dropping him into certain situations could make him automatically the hero without even needing to change any of his personality even a bit.

Is Dr. Fate doing anything remotely interesting these days? Or being used at all?

Sure is. Where is it from exactly?

bump

Nevermind found it. Wonder Woman 234

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He showed up in JLD recently but Nabu's being pants-on-helmet retarded as an antagonist.

He could be good without the superman obsession but more importantly without society holding him up to high moral standards. Might never turn into a legit great hero but he'd do some good here and there if just left alone, the trick is convincing him he's truly been left alone.

man even the most basic comic book covers used to be so much better than today's. Don't care if blinded by nostalgia or something.

He’s back to being a mass murderer in the name of order with an extremely fucking stupid plan

What if Harley is just pretending to be evil as part of an extremely long running psychological technique to get to Joker's heart and make him no longer crazy? No other doctor can get close to Joker without getting stabbed, so she's running the long con.

That would explain why every time Joker leaves the picture she starts to become a good guy - No reason to keep up the act without him around.

Mister Terrific would be extremely satisfied.

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>and having the odd bittersweet feeling of nobody knowing/caring he used to be Hitler's buttbuddy.
much potential, great laughs:
>Redskull explains the virtues of fascism to naive aliens who legitimately never hurt anyone even each other but are experiencing problems
>Aliens actually make the political and economic systems work without being assholes but redskull keeps tempting them to be evil shitters
> In the end they thank him but realise he's a trouble-maker against the alien's brand of fascism and has to leave
> Redskull fights fascism he helped create
confused onlookers not quite sure if redskull is a good guy because he's fighting fascism or a bad guy because he's causing fascism

until eventually:
> these aliens show up to earth and it comes up that they're fascists... and redskull helped them to do it
and they NEVER become assholes about the misunderstanding, they just change their political system's name to something else.

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The Maker was right.

Either give cletus something to kill for, or have the symbiote go towards someone more noble

How about
>Symbiote becomes sane
>Cletus is still crazy
>Their entire comic run is the Symbiote trying to reform him and get him out of trouble.

Wisdom is not eyesight

Well his eyes are closed.

Yeah he's always got that squinty look. Get that guy a pair of readers or something.

interesting thread

They already made him a hero when he wiped Germany off the face of the earth