Barry

Barry
>Fucked up the timeline to save his mom
>Even Barry's nemesis calls him out on it
>Ended with the world exploding and ultimately Barry destroying that universe "fixing" it
>Barry gets off scot free and with no remorse at the carnage because Bruce got a piece of paper from his dad

Wally
>Lost his wife and two kids (ultimately because off Barry's timeline faggotry)
>Goes on the fritz, kills a friend and a slew of literally whos
>Frames two chucklefucks
>Comes to his senses and kills himself

Can we just say now that Barry is the ultimate villain of the DC universe now and Wally did nothing wrong and is the victim? BASED KING IS KING!

But seriously, HiC is utter shit and I hope between this trash and other duds like the Batman "wedding", turning Mister Miracle into a suicidal clusterfuck, and his Superman/Lois torture porn people will wise up to how much of a fraud King is. If that faggot ever gets canned I hope he takes Didio with him.

Attached: Thanks for ruining my life Barry.jpg (604x920, 154K)

Didio survived having a somewhat beloved female character raped on screen.

HiC isn’t going to do shit to the guy’s status. Plus, current DC seems to fully be in the Marvel “pissing off readers is good for business” camp, so they’re probably loving HiC.

The decade-long Barry push has been annoying as shit. He was legitimately better off dead after CoIE and fondly remembered by other DC characters.

I don't get how you can say Wally did nothing wrong when he literally framed two innocent people for mass murder after fradulently creating a crime scene that involved him doing shit like impaling Lagoon Boy, shoving toy teeth in commander steel's throat, etc etc.

Dude's either just evil now or insane. Either way he's the bad guy here.

Agreed. When I started reading the Flash I'd never read any silver age stuff. The way Barry was talked about as the standard of what it meant to be a hero was really cool, & seeing him come back & do what he's done has been severely underwhelming.

Because, and bear with me now, a perfect saintly hero is boring and the goal with bringing Barry back was not to recreate the exact boring character that was so bad that they killed him off to get replaced by his (at the time) highly unlikable kid sidekick.

I don't get people complaining that they changed Barry. Of course they did. Guess the fuck what? Wally didn't have a terrible, sad, neglectful childhood before Waid modernized him and retconned his origin. You faggots complaining that Barry's not a perfect silver age pastiche are hypocritical as fuck.

Barry hasn't had a solid comic since... ever, really. Silver age stuff was crazy because it's the Silver age. Then from his return it's been lukewarm at best.

His sacrifice in CoIE was Barry at his highest.

HiC would've been better if it never was written at all but it should've had no real deaths but instead Wally beating the everliving fuck out of a simulated Barry. Then somebody walks in and sees like eighty splattered Barry corpses in the corner.

Hey we all have hopes and dreams now.

What if they just forever stuck him in the Justice League and had Wally operating as solo Flash?

I feel like that's better for him. He can be the moral compass for the Justice League, always reminding the team that they can rise up to be better.

The point of books like JL is to promote the characters who are from the other book in the shared universe. The JL can't have the Flash who isn't in the main comic. It's why they kicked Wally off the JL when Barry came back. It's not like Wally was any worse a hero, he just wasn't The main Flash anymore.

I know the GLs kind of mess this concept up but even then, when Jess and Simon had their own comic they were in the JL. When they stopped they were suddenly replaced by John (because Morrison called dibs on Hal I guess).

Wally is stuck with the Titans so long as Barry is alive. You can't escape that. Everyone would constantly wonder why the real Flash isn't in The Flash comic.

the true villains are Didio and King

>He was legitimately better off dead after CoIE and fondly remembered by other DC characters.
Nah fuck that, 20 years is good enough, by then it might as well be a clean slate.

>his Superman/Lois torture porn
Thanks for reminding about that autistic spam from the anti tom king shitposters.

It was 24 years. Almost Mar-vell levels of "he's fucking dead"

>it was 24 years
Yeah, exactly. Do you expect people to give a shit about his heroic death scene after 24 years? DC would dumb as fuck to keep Barry dead just because some event comic that was losing relevancy every passing year.

Wally literally said that it wasn’t Barry’s fault and that the time shenanigans were caused by Dr. Manhattan in the Rebirth special you fucking casual. Also prior to the Manhattan revelation it was actually Pandora that merged the DC, Wildstorm, and Vertigo timelines together which led to some overall time fuckery.

Wally read all the 9 panel segments in HiC and it made him explode.

Attached: Black Canary23.jpg (1000x1641, 397K)

It undermines the narrative that the mantle was passed on to Wally.

That's like if you were hit by a truck, then brought back by a wizard over two decades later to take back your old job that you've long since been replaced at.

Is HiC worth reading for the train wreck at least?

...

>A mega-collage of every 9 panel page King has ever done.
There is no greater torture.

Attached: Jesus fuck no.png (283x283, 172K)

>It undermines the narrative that the mantle was passed on to Wally.
Guess what? That narrative was done as soon as his kids became superheroes.

So regressing is the next natural step? Good job, you're a moron.

Barry's still boring.

Sure Manhattan and co tweaked the end results after Barry fucked up the world, but Barry still started all of this clusterfuck by going back in time in the first place.

This.

Yes, and also for the cheesecake. Mann is clearly bored out of his mind for most of the series, so he's going to draw just whatever.

Attached: Barbara140.jpg (1988x3056, 991K)

You know what's regressive? Keeping a character dead for 24 years for no reason. Wally had his time in the sun but the world turns and light fades.

>Wally had his time in the sun
and barry didn't?

What is facetiousness?

Current readers are such hothouse flowers. We had Superman and Barda shooting porn together 30 years ago and all everybody said was Byrne is a weirdo. Now King is getting death threats.

Attached: mister-miracle-s-worst-day-ever_299.jpg (622x456, 94K)

storytime of pain material.

>You know what's regressive? Keeping a character dead for 24 years for no reason.
The original Golden Age Batman is still dead, but I don't hear you bitching about how DC's been too focused on this new, hip fella since the Silver Age. I mean, c'mon, this guy's had HIS time "in the Sun".

You raise an excellent point though. Death is meaningless. Lemme go wake Mark Twain up from his really deep nap and tell him he was wrong this whole time. Shouldn't be an issue since there's no such things as "stakes" involved in anything. I guess art really does imitate life: yours.

A writer who writes something poorly and without basis is what you expect on a fanfic site since no one cares about being in character, canon, or logic in a place like that.

No for something published by someone who is supposed by one of the better Big Two writers.

I remember that comic. Good times. Weird, but still good.

Attached: miracle disgusted.jpg (393x509, 127K)

So in Titans, Wally touch-zapped Dick, Roy and the others into remembering him.
Why didn't that work with Linda?

>Is HiC worth reading for the train wreck at least?
Depends on your definition of "worth reading"
For example, 2 Babies 1 Fox is more important to the cultural zeitgeist than HiC.

Attached: hgdrt.jpg (600x383, 50K)

This guy is right
At least Byrne was a competent writer and produced some good consistent work, King has like one or two good books under his beast and that’s it

At least 2B1F just made me gag and not want to kill myself.

Attached: 1348697583141.png (249x230, 43K)

Say what you will about Byrne, but the dude at least had the face to say that he hated Jack Kirby and to admit he was trying to make Kirby's wife's stand-in a pron actress out of pure spite. Not like King that is saying he tried to write an homage to Wally and doesn't know why people are angry,
Byrne would also enter comic forums and sperg like a motherfucker while picking fights left and right, and not act like a dandy little victim like King has been doing.

I'd say Identity Crisis was better paced, but on the other hand HiC didn't rely on a literal raping.

Every time I’ve attempted to read it, it’s given me a headache.

It’s not even good as a “so bad it’s good” style book, it is literally just a terrible read with the only redeemable quality being the artwork that is so out of place for this book

Identity Crisis had its full retard moments like that Deathstroke curbstomp as well, but HiC is a trainwreck front to back.

Agreed. The art is totally wasted on this disaster.

Attached: IdC DS F.jpg (899x1379, 623K)

Oh, I didn't mean to throw Byrne under the bus. The man was a god in the 80s, plus he is an asshole and has no problem standing up for his assholeness, no matter the consequences. That makes him miles better than any of the "star" creators we have today.

It worked, but she didn't want to be with him.

>The original Golden Age Batman is still dead
Bruce Wayne is still alive tho.
Did you think you actually made a point there or something? Christ Yea Forums is stupid.

>Weird, but still good.
No it wasn't.

>You raise an excellent point though. Death is meaningless. Lemme go wake Mark Twain up from his really deep nap and tell him he was wrong this whole time. Shouldn't be an issue since there's no such things as "stakes" involved in anything.
This is what autism sounds like.

>Every time I’ve attempted to read it, it’s given me a headache
That just sounds like you have a tumor.

Someone just tell me how Booster's been in this. That's all I really care about.

Not a literal headache dingus, a metaphorical one

A loveable screwup.

I love how that fat weirdo had the power to control two of the strongest people in the planet and used them to make a porno.

Did you read The Batman Comic with Booster before “The Wedding”, he’s wildly incompetent and seems like King has no understanding behind the character

And not in a Bwahaha level charming incompetence but in a Booster is mentally Challenged incompetent

He was mentally exhausted trying to fix his screw up.

This is depressing to read

You know I read I can't believe it's not the justice league and I have to say, Bwahaha Booster? Not that charming. I'm chalking it up to it not being the 80s anymore.

>Ended with the world exploding and ultimately Barry destroying that universe "fixing" it

How the fuck is this any different then when Hal tried to rewrite the universe?

Attached: Parallax.jpg (580x880, 91K)

>Thawne started all of this clusterfuck by going back in time in the first place
>still tries to call Barry out

DC was no better at the time, but did sales drop as low back then, though?

So boring that more people care about and buy his comic that they ever did Wally. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems to be entertaining enough.

What do you mean? Wally training the next generation and passing the title down eventually is about as true to the character as you can get.

Sure, but Barry also had his time in the sun. And was given a rather good ending. He's an outdated pastiche of a bygone era who they had to retrofit with so many of Wally's qualities that he barely resembles Barry anymore. If that was the point, why bring him back in the first place?

This is a COIE reference. Batman is technically his silver age incarnation, the Justice League version. The Golden Age version who had crossovers with the JSA characters is dead/never existed or whatever.

You can literally blame Ethan Van Sciver for that bullshit. He's the one who persuaded Didio to do it.

I understand the reference I just think it's a nonsense argument. Earth 1 and Earth 2 Batman is not the same thing as Barry and Wally.

Bring in Bart Allen to be a Titan. Problem solved.

>Wally training the next generation and passing the title down eventually is about as true to the character as you can get.
>passing the title down eventually
>eventually
Keyphrase there, it's like me saying I'll straighten out my life...eventually.
Wally having kids means the narrative of Wally going from Sidekick to full blwon hero is done and that new narrative of him training the new generation is a stillborn narrative because he's never gonna pass down that mantle to Iris or Bart.

Wally is a weak mass murderer who can't even control the speed force cause of his fee fees.
Barry is the Chad Flash.

Attached: Chaddy-1.jpg (1651x3029, 945K)

>Barry also had his time in the sun. And was given a rather good ending
You have to stop viewing comics through your own personal lens. CoIE and Barry's death was losing relevancy every fucking year as the multiverse was coming back, the anti-monitor came back, Supergirl came back as was almost evey other character that was wiped away in CoIE. How do you keep barry dead when his big heroic death was just becoming a footnote in DC comic history? DC is a company and they were thinking of a new generation of readers who would see Barry as a new character so they made logical choice-really the only choice thru could've made.
Bring back Barry Allen.

>He's an outdated pastiche of a bygone era who they had to retrofit with so many of Wally's qualities
Like what wallyfag? You asshole make this claim a lot but you have no argument to actually back it up.
>look! He's smiling! Obviously ripped off from Wally

Wolfman insisted that Deathstroke did nothing wrong and went on to(poorly)justify every bad thing he did.

Harley gets a free pass for all of her crimes because writers pull the LOL WACKY AND RANDUMB Card.

Someone will find some way to justify Wally's actions. The real problem is that Wally should have never been put into this situation and DC just blatantly derailed his character for shock value.

>Say what you will about Byrne, but the dude at least had the face to say that he hated Jack Kirby and to admit he was trying to make Kirby's wife's stand-in a pron actress out of pure spite
Does that mean Superman was a stand-in for Stan Lee?

Also
>The virgin King and the chad Byrne

Because it was in the 90s so capeshit was still trying to sell new ideas and characters so a nostalgiafag destroying the universe because muh silver age was wrong but now it's the right thing to do.

That wouldn't be so bad if the Titans were competently written. All DC sees them as is fodder.

Lilith is a shrink, has psychic powers and was a member of the Titans. Instead of having Lilith help Wally and everyone else at Sanctuary,DC decided to have AIs and virtual reality do the job of a professional.
Both times when Bart was on the Titans, his character got derailed(along with everyone from YJ). Let him stay with YJ.

VR therapy is a thing and comic book AIs are basically people.

DC HEROES ARE MASS MURDERERS

I know, but based on what we saw it seemed like the patients were abusing the VR. Wally was playing around with a fake version of his family and Lagoon Boy kept having a laser shoot him. It felt more like they were reliving their traumas instead of getting better.

>It felt more like they were reliving their traumas
That's what VR therapy is for, revisiting trauma.

The irony to me is that in the 2010's way too many people have ended up making Byrne look like the better person. That's a fucking amazing feat.

Ah, how times have changed. From fucked up nonsense to just quirky.

Are you fucking braindead, zoomer?

You know what was established when Wally was the flash? The fucking speed force itself and the rogues gallery.

Fucking imbecile. Even the TV show rips off (sorry" adapt") Wally's stories and characters.

Wally was on the fucking cartoon.

How retarded are you and when did you start comics, faggot?

I always wondered if the posters who usually took shot at Byrne in the 00's ever imagined we'd end up in a decade where people on Twitter make Byrne look comparatively sane.

Why can’t Wally run to save his family? He has more experience with this

He really should have been able to or it should have been dealt with in an arc in The Flash book itself and maybe a secondary Flash title.

King wasted such a great set up by Williamson

>Zoomer

Attached: litter-belongs-in-a-litter-bin.png (243x244, 19K)

So how is DC suppose to fix their comics? They have pretty much thrown away all their good will. And they can’t do another Rebirth. Not to mention they are losing good writers and artists (and only getting Marvel’s sloppy seconds no one likes).
It seems like DC could be DCeased in a few years.

It's annoying to you because you are Wally fanboy and you wouldn't have complained if it was the other way around.

>They have pretty much thrown away all their good will.
You know rebirthfags say this but I'm still reading a lot titles from DC.
>Grant Morrison' Green lantern
>Wonder twins
>Hawkman
>Dial H for Hero
>Shazam
>the silencer
So I don't really know what the fuck you're talking about.

>Wally established the rogues gallery
No he objectively didn't user.

Williamson was the one who squandered it with his flash war shit.

>Bring back Wally in amazing event where Barry remembers him
>Have him kill people then off himself a few years later
This is why I hate comics

>meanwhile at DC editorial...
>mission accomplished

Only because of the CW and movie shit shoehorning Barry in so braindead normies only know him. Barry's been mediocre the entire time he's been back.

Name one great Flash story from N52 or Rebirth. I'll wait.

King ruins Bats, Supes, Booster, Dick and now Wally. I can't take it anymore bros.

Attached: 1nn3gx.jpg (513x600, 82K)

I'm a Wallyfag but Barry had the rogue gallery. It got passed to him and Wally expanded it with Zoom and the like.

Attached: Flash Rogue Gallery.jpg (1018x1400, 543K)

Remember when Superman split into two energy beings? Comics are malleable, nothing has been ruined or broken.
Quit being a bitch.

>Name one great Flash story from N52 or Rebirth.
And who gets to decide what's great or not, you?
Numbers don't lie.

>Sales indicate good comics
Bet you loved the Batman Wedding then... oh.

Still waiting by the way.

>Still waiting by the way.
Well you can keep waiting because no one has to prove anything.

It isn't but Hal was supposed to be a bad guy foe DC. Barry wasn't. So they don't acknowledge that Barry killed not only Wally's children but his own children who he refused to raise.Because the entire Flash canon since was built on his death.

The reason the Tornado Twins and Bart were raised solely by Iris? Because Barry was dead. The reason the Flash family came together to support Wally while he was still growing? Because he was dead. The reason Iris took Bart back to the past to get help from Wally instead of just go 5 years into the future where Barry came back? Because Barry was dead and wasn't supposed to come back.

A lot of stuff from Crisis faded from relevance of over time, but Barry's death never did. It was as fundamental to modern Flash as could be possible.

Your point is bullshit. But please explain away to me Barry Allen being a dead beat dad.

>Barry remembers Wally
>Wally comes back.
>Wally remembers Jai and Iris
>They don’t come back.
>A GL dies in issue.
>Never show or mention it again.
>Superman is from post crisis and nobody came back for him

>Because the entire Flash canon since was built on his death.
The canon doesn't exist anymore.

Every single thing you like about the rogues besides their powers comes from Johns run, dude. Just try to go read a captain cold issue from the Barry era. Half the ti.e his goal was just trying to kidnap Iris and force her to love him. Which I assume was 60s lingo for rape.

Well yeah, bit the argument was about bringing Barry back, which happend in the old continuity. And it kind of does now since Wally and Bart are back.

>please explain away to me Barry Allen being a dead beat dad.
Nobody cared about that minute bullshit.
>ACKSHUALLY BLAH BLAH TORNADO TWINS
Who gives a fuck?

No worries user, you still proved my point that Flash comics since Barry came back have been mediocre.

So geoff Johns established the rogues gallery then and not wally.

They were mediocre before he came back.

Yeah, man, in Wally's run. If you want to attribute things to characters then Wally gets the modern rogues

They may have been fleshed out during Wally's time but the general roster for the Flash's rogue gallery was still established during Barry's time.

>If you want to attribute things to characters then Wally gets the modern rogues
That makes zero fucking sense because he inherited them for Barry.
Wally didn't establish the rogues, Geoff Johns did.

Fucking casual normie over here. Of course you love Barry. Thank god there's a super hero as boring and shitty as Barry for you to relate to.

You missed the whole point of the conversation. He said the effects and importance of the effects of COIE had waned. That's not the case with Barry's death.

Motherfucker then Broome gets the rogues. Be at least a little consistent. Johns changed the rogues to suit Wslly. Just like some of them were created to suit Barry. Christ you're pedantic.

GMGL and Shazam are legit the only good ones DC has to offer.

>experienced reader disregards shitty storylines and retcons for the sake of his enjoyment
>"FUCKING NORMIE REEEEEE"
Wallyfags are something else.

>Because the entire Flash canon since was built on his death.
Not really, it was Barry's SA introduction that did it by linking him and Jay together.
You are trying to do what this guy is doing
without Barry there wouldn't be a rogues gallery, there wouldn't be flash facts, there simply wouldn't be a wally.

>Johns changed the rogues to suit Wslly
Bitch please, Johns doesn't need an excuse to change a character to suit his ideas of what a character should be.

Let's be honest, you would do the same.

Attached: Riddlers got nothing.jpg (588x299, 84K)

>GMGL and Shazam are legit the only good ones DC has to offer.
Pretty much, yeah.

Name one great story from Nu52

Court of owls.
Lemire's Green Arrow
Azz's Wonder Woman (viewed as an Elseworlds)

Are we talking arcs or a series in general?

Yeah, do single issues count? How do normies categorize their "favorite comic books"?

take your pick

sorry, "viewed as elseworld" doesn't count, that was supposed to be CANON FOREVER until the next reboot
the court of owls thing seems to be well regarded enough, havent heard of the green arrow run much

Dido and his supporters are fired or resign(under duress). The new management acknowledges the previous administrations fuck ups and promises to do better. And here's the real hard part. They actually have to deliver on those promises.

Frankly WB shutting down DC in house would probably be the best thing that could happen. Somebody would end up licensing the publishing rights. I don't know who. Marvel would be seen as a movie competitor, so not them. IDW as few too many links to Disney/Marvel with them farming out their all age titles to them. Iit may be a non comic book company like Scholastic or DK in which case they'd only produce new OGNs and reprint collections. But whoever would end up getting the rights has to be better than the current administration.

You forget also that Marvel and IDW can't seem to get their shit together.
Boom studios, maybe? Would they go with any continuity? DCAU versions?