How is Jafar opening a pit of lave underneath Aladdin for him to sink into not a clear violation of the Genie No...

Perhaps the rules are enforced by some sort of genie authority, and it was going to punish Jafar afterwards.

>How is Jafar opening a pit of lave underneath Aladdin for him to sink into not a clear violation of the Genie No Killing rule?
Because he didn't kill Aladdin. He's not prohibited from trying to kill anyone, he's prohibited from actually killing anyone. He could have tried to twist Aladdin's head off with his big genie arms, but some Deus Ex Machina would have occurred to prevent him from doing so. A genie can't kill - it was completely out of his power to kill anyone himself.

He could do it because he is a human with powers of a genie, not an actual bonafide, "disagreed with Allah on some tiny matter couple millenia ago" genie

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In first movie he was defeated because of these rules that were applied even to him despite not being a natural genie.

Almost like this was a shitty direct to video cash grab with awful animation.
Did help me figuring out what corporate greed was as a kid though.

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You'd be surprised what you could live through

Since Aladdin's Genie has been freed, does this mean he is not bound by the rules? Does that mean that Genie can kill, raise the dead and make other people fall in love?

Maybe something from this limited because of his own abilities, I don't remember. Like he can't just make a person fall in love because he just don't know how to do it.

If Aladdin's Genie is no longer bound by the rules, I suppose he could, in theory, kill Jafar, but can't in practise because being a freed genie means that his powers are much weaker than Jafar's.

The solution to this, would be to cast a spell that makes Jafar fall in love with Aladdin. He wouldn't want to kill Aladdin if he was in love with him.

Does this mean that destroying the lamp of Aladdin's Genie wouldn't kill him?

It seems to me that Jafar it's supposed to be some kind of Ifrit/Shaitaan opposite to the Genie who's supposed to be a Marid, a somewhat benevolent and powerful Djinn. Ifrits are made of fire (like pretty much every single Djinn) but they can summon fire with magic also they are treacherous and mean harm to humans.

Maybe the genie told Aladdin he couldn't kill anyone out of a personal aversion to it but claimed a cosmic rule to avoid any tedious arguments about it.

Genie Jafar is the closest thing we will ever have of how a original myth Genie.
genies are evil assholes they love to play tricks and put people on death situations.

Shaitaan is Satan, I used to think Islam believed it was a fallen angel as well, but angels dont have free will apparently and can't rebel so it being a djinn does make more sense

I thought most of Genies rules were self-imposed, he said he didn't like bringing people back from the dead not that it was beyond his power

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It might make him feel bad if he's emotionally attached to it.

Interestingly, there was one episode of the show where Iago was turned into a genie. His first thought was to whip up a giant pile of treasure for himself, and Genie (who was turned mortal at the time) produced a big rulebook of things a genie can't do. The implication was that magic was only to be used in the service of others, not to be used for oneself. Genie also states "the union is very vigilant". Iago suggests summoning a giant sundae, and Genie freaks out. Presumably, there is some kind of invisible union that monitors the way genies use magic. Iago scoffs at this and asks what's the worst that could happen. As a warning, he is briefly transported to some kind of hell dimension where he chased by flames, a truck, stretched out over a chessboard and had a piano dropped on him. I remember this brief scene was quite scary when I was a child and I looked it up on YouTube just now.

Basically, there is a punishment for genies who misuse their power, and genie-Iago was briefly sent to hell as a mere warning.

This would explain why Genie was pissed at Aladdin for tricking him out of the cave, and why Genie couldn't save Aladdin from drowning of his own accord, and had to get a half-assed "nod" in order to save him. Genie probably figured he was skating on thin ice after being tricked into escaping the cave, and thought that if he got caught handing out another freebie, he could be sent to hell as a result. Hence why he had to waste precious time making Aladdin nod, because at least that way there was *something* to indicate that was Aladdin's second wish.

Here's the episode in case anyone wants to check out the "genie hell" sequence.

youtube.com/watch?v=SWDDu-RFnT4

Jaffar wished to become the strongest geanie so blue geanie is far weaker even without any rules.

Yeah I know. Angels are just Gods automatons according to pre-islamic beliefs. The word Shaitan it's not exclusively used to describe a individual being but a race or a tribe of rebellious djinn which happen to follow Iblis (Devil's Islam equivalent)
Djinns are pretty much like us, they can be good fellas believers of God or malicious douchebags that fucks shit up. In that note, Jafar it's a pretty consistent depiction of a djinn even tho he's was originally a human being.

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>Actually, now that I think about it, teleporting Abis Mal to the bottom of the ocean for his first wish seems like a violation of the rule too. The implication was pretty explicit. "I'm gonna fucking drown you if you don't burn through your first two wishes."

Hey, Abis Mal wished for a sunken treasure, and Jafar gave him a sunken treasure. It's a classic genie move, obeying the letter of the wish while completely defying the spirit. And leaving him there to drown isn't violating the code, genies aren't allowed to kill but they're not obligated to save their master unless he wishes for it. They're not even ALLOWED to do so without expending a wish.

This stuff gets suggested all the time, and I have no idea why people subscribe to this theory.

It's clear that the rules are actual rules, and not some personal bullshit Genie made up.

Genie is pissed at being tricked out of the cave. He's not supposed to hand out free wishes, hence the necessity of making Aladdin "nod" for his second wish.

He has no choice but to serve Jafar when Jafar becomes his master. He *clearly* doesn't want to serve Jafar, but he gives Jafar three wishes that make him very fucking dangerous because he's bound to his duty.

If Genie had the option of murdering Jafar in order to save Agrabah, I'm sure he would have, personal code or not.

Jafar tries to wish for Jasmine to fall in love with him and he can't do it. Not because he refused on moral reasons, but because it was beyond his power to do so.

In the sequal, Jafar tries to immediately leave the vicinity of Abis Mal, but can't because he is bound to serve him. He monkey paws the shit out his first two wishes, but he doesn't outright deny them because he can't.

Jafar also realizes that he CANNOT murder Aladdin. He tries to manipulate shit to get Aladdin executed, but he can't just fry him with an energy bolt himself.

He tries to get Abis Mal to wish him free, because he knows that is the only way he will be free from the rules.

Then in the show, we meet an evil duplicate of Aladdin who has an evil (and retarded) duplicate of the Genie. Evil Genie wrecks Agrabah, but doesn't explicitly kill anyone. Aladdin get ahold of the evil lamp and wishes everything back to normal and the genie has to do so, despite being evil.

Genie's girlfriend Eden re-iterates the no-killing rule when she is introduced. She has no choice but to serve Abis Mal when he gets possession of her bottle, but she still can't kill for him. Nor can she kill him to serve her own interests.

The no-killing rule has shown as an absolute with three, arguably four genies.

>He *clearly* doesn't want to serve Jafar, but he gives Jafar three wishes that make him very fucking dangerous because he's bound to his duty.

Of course as Jafar later demonstrates he does have the freedom to decide HOW to grant the wish, Genie's just too much of a softy to screw over his master, even if that master is Jafar. He prides himself on service, after all.

They state in the sequal that being freed significantly nerfs a genie's powers. That's why in the two sequels and the TV series, Genie can't just steamroll any problem that comes up. He can use powers of his own accord, but they are significantly weaker now. It would also explain why Genie can't permanently make Aladdin a prince again as a favour after he's been freed.

Jafar wanted to be freed so that he would no longer be freed by the rules of the lamp. He would be able to kill again, never have to grant wishes and probably couldn't be killed by the destruction of the lamp if he was freed.

His powers would be nerfed, but at that point he figured that nerfed genie powers were better than being a slave. Also, his nerfed genie powers would stack on top of his powers as the world's most powerful sorcerer which were presumably still in effect.

Even as a freed genie Jafar would still be pretty formidable.

And to be completely autistic here, he may even have a legitimate claim to the throne of Agrabah if the effects of his first wish were still in effect.

>It would also explain why Genie can't permanently make Aladdin a prince again as a favour after he's been freed.

Not like it matters since by that point he's engaged to Jasmine.

Although Genie could probably still magic up a small island and make Aladdin prince of it.

How do you know Jafar was trying to kill him? Maybe he'd have used magic to keep Aladdin alive after he fell in the lava and just wanted to melt his flesh off.

If Jafar allowed Abis Mal to drown, it would be a violation of the no-killing rule, whether Abis Mal "wished" to be in that position or not.

If you can't wish somebody dead, I think it's fair to assume you can't wish their heart would stop beating, or wish them to be teleported to the centre of the sun, or wish them to have terminal cancer. The rule would be useless if it was that easy to get around. I don't think you can wish for a nuke to go off in a city either.

My interpretation is that if a person will die as a direct consequence of the wish, then it cannot be done.

Otherwise Genie could have made Jafar into the sultan who has a lungful of broken glass. Or the most powerful sorcerer to ever have a bullet moments away from piercing his skull.

>It would also explain why Genie can't permanently make Aladdin a prince again as a favour after he's been freed.
The original ending of the movie had Genie going into the Sultan's law scroll and quietly changing the law to allow Aladdin and Jasmine to get married (Sultan was the only one who saw him doing it and decided to play along).

Yes, Genie can kill whoever he wants and make people fall in love based on his every whim. The trade off is that he's not as powerful as he was when he was bound to the lamp.

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Jafar and Abis Mal ambushed Aladdin earlier in the film and made him fall to his death, but Jafar saved him because at the time, he wanted to make sure he was completely hated by everybody first.

Nothing's stopping Jafar from killing... if it's an indirect cause of his power. He can't conjure a fireball and kill them directly with it, but as shown earlier, he has no qualms with warping people into the ocean and letting them drown.

Look, user, if Jafar can't kill Aladdin, then we can't have a climax for the movie. They had to bend the rules for the ending.

This user gets it: He teleported George Costanza underwater and threatened to drown him if he didn't waste his second wish.

He was only able to get engaged to Jasmine because the Sultan changed the law. Prior to that it was a choice between using his last wish to be a prince OR free the Genie. There was no talk of "set me free and I'll make you a prince again for free." If the Sultan still wanted a royal son in law, Aladdin would basically have to fuck off. I doubt freed Genie would be able to create a permanent island for Aladdin to be prince of.

But we know he never had any intent to kill Abys Mal. He needed the guy alive. There's technically no rule against pretending you're going to kill someone.

And then later they make Aladdin fall to his death. Jafar only spares him because he still has a much-nastier plan to make sure he's hated by all before he's killed.

How would Jafar feel if Abis Mal's last wish was for him to swim in a septic tank?

>And to be completely autistic here, he may even have a legitimate claim to the throne of Agrabah if the effects of his first wish were still in effect.

Here's my autistic headcanon regarding both Jafar and Aladdin's wishes to become royalty.

Genie didn't just give Aladdin a new set of clothes and an elephant. Nor did he actually conjure up a previously unheard of country with a population of people who wonder where their prince fucked off to.

Instead, he tweaked Aladdin's DNA, and maybe tweaked history a little so that Aladdin was technically the bastard child of some king somewhere, who was in line for the throne, but way, way down the list behind thirteen brothers. It doesn't seem fair to just give him new clothes and call him a prince, but nor is it really fair to fuck with another countries line of succession. And its certainly unfair to summon a whole country and race of people out of nowhere and then leave them to their own devices.

My autistic interpretation is that Genie actually did make Aladdin genetically the son of a king who fucked a hooker in Agrabah, but he's so far down the line that he will likely never gain the throne and it won't impact that country -but he's still a prince.

Jafar completely undid this wish -he didn't just change Aladdin's clothes back, he completly rewrote Aladdin's DNA back to what it was.

When Jafar wished to be Sultan, again, Genie didn't just give him a new set of clothes. He rewrote Jafar's DNA to be the previous Sultan's newly discovered older brother -therefore the TRUE Sultan by blood.

When Jafar was banished into the lamp, the previous Sultan basically took the throne back through conquest. Sultan only legally inhereted the throne once Jafar was killed in the sequal.

Unless of course there is a law somewhere stating that only humans can hold the throne. Or maybe genie's have no DNA and Jafar's third wish negated his first wish -hence why the location of the palace changed back.

So you think if Abis Mal never wished to be back in the desert, Jafar would have teleported him back for free?

Because the alternative is that Abis Mal drowns, Jafar violates the genie rules and gets sent to genie Hell, and Jafar's lamp stays at the bottom of the ocean.

What do you think would have happened if Abis Mal called his bluff? Would he be sent back to the desert with two wishes still intact?

I've always thought that Aladdin wasted an opportunity when Jafar's lamp was available at the end of the first film.

To really humiliate Jafar, Aladdin should have rubbed the lamp and wished for Jafar to give him a blowjob. The second wish can be for Jafar to give him a rimjob. I don't see how those wishes could be monkey pawed if you word them carefully enough. Shit, his first wish could maybe be that Jafar has to honour the spirit of the wish and no monkey paw nonsense.

>awful animation
Technically this is the best TV animation Disney has ever done.
It's still ways off from classic Disney feature film quality, but then again so is Aladdin.

The closest TV animation ever came to classic Disney quality is Ren & Stimpy

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Huh. That makes sense. It's not that they CAN'T, it's that Allah forbids them.

You are now aware 99% of evil genie/monkey paw wish tropes are ass-pull tier, "but you didn't say" horse shit.

>the he's instead of his

come on man, once or twice is understandable but consistently is just sad

My headcanon is more autistic than yours.

Genies wish was never undone, it CAN'T be undone now. The world was changed and Aladin is still a prince at the end of the movie.. The Prince of Thieves.

>Here's the episode in case anyone wants to check out the "genie hell" sequence.
Fucking fuck what a stupid lesson for kids. "Make one mistake and all your good deeds are for naught." Bullshit. Iago was a better genie than Genie ever was. He could have EASILY fixed his mistake.
By the way here's the entire series:
watchcartoononline.io/anime/aladdin

The animation really is top-tier for television.

You'd be surprised what you can live through.

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That's a pretty popular theory, but I don't really think it holds much weight.

The King of Thieves is a title Cassim gave himself, and his authority is only recognised by the other thieves. He's not king of a nation.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as the "Prince of Thieves". Aladdin had to defeat Sa'Luk in combat to join the organisation. Being "king" was not heredetory, Aladdin got no recognition by being Cassim's son. He could become King of Thieves someday by earning his way to the top, but he was never gonna get that position just by being someone's son. The "Prince of Thieves" isn't something that is recognised by the other members.

And it would certainly not make him elegabe to marry Jasmine, which was the whole point behind the wish anyway.

Also, the theory would imply that Cassim wasn't Aladdin's father prior to the wish, and I'm not sure how that would work.

It's a cute theory, but I don't think it really holds up.

Pretty sure in the third movie Genie was as surprised as everyone else to learn that Aladdin's father was the King of Thieves.

Also, the wish was quite clearly reversed by Jafar. Changing someone's clothes doesn't strip them of their royalty. Something deeper must have happened when Jafar turned him back. Even Genie knew that it would take a wish to make him prince again. Otherwise Jasmine could have just replaced his prince clothes if that's all it took.

I just re-watched that scene, and Jafar would have been pretty blameless if Aladdin died here.

Jafar summons a water vortex to trap the Sultan. Aladdin flies into the vortex to rescue him. That's Aladdin's own fault right there. The vortex then spits Aladdin out into the river, but Aladdin manages to grab hold of a rock. He's completely safe at this point.

Then Abis Mal comes past and kicks Aladdin in the face, knocking him down the waterfall.

If Aladdin died here, it would have been Abis Mal's fault, not Jafar.

By the genie rules, I don't think Jafar had any obligation to save him. The water vortex was not meant for Aladdin, and Aladdin was safe on the rock anyhow. It was Abis Mal who kicked him down the waterfall.

But if Jafar can step in and save Aladdin of his own volition, it brings into question why the Genie couldn't save him in the first film without using up a wish.

Another part where Jafar almost breaks the rule is when he throws a fireball at Aladdin in the palace. The fireball doesn't kill him, but it knocks him back onto the balcony which then collapses. Aladdin only survived because Genie caught him, and Abis Mal only survived because he got caught in a tree. If they'd landed differently they'd be dead -because of Jafar's fireball.

That's a pretty clear attempt to violate the rules right there.

>I doubt freed Genie would be able to create a permanent island for Aladdin to be prince of.

Maybe a very small one. Like, one of those tiny cartoon islands that's just big enough for a palm tree and a couple of people.

Anyway Al's already set to become prince, or at least prince consort, I don't know what the deal is in Agrabah, so it doesn't really matter.

I just thought Jafar was going to magically keep them alive, pain and damage inflicted would would still apply of course, but a eternal state of living pain that may be worse then death, effectively a Un-Death.

Jafar and Genie pretty explicitly state "You'd be surprised at what you can live through" at multiple points or something like that regarding the rule.

Jafar was a all-powerful genie so don't say he can't keep a human alive in lava cause that is definitely included in "All-Powerful".

Genies are all about Rules-Lawyering to a point Munchkins blush, the whole thing about them having rules is to tech you that they can be subverted and danced around.

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Jafar doesn't care about the rules, just like muslims don't follow Koran directly

Muslims aren't compelled by the literal forces of the cosmos to obey the tenets of Islam.

Jafar doesn't care about the rules, that's true, but he's still bound to obey them. He can't break the rules but he's learned to bend them to their limit. Like a true djinn.

What would happen if I was Aladdin at the end of the first movie, and my final wish was "I wish you to be free after you have licked my asshole." Would the genie do it? What would happen? Would he appreciate the joke/prank?

>Jafar summoned it with the intent of it being deadly
So what? The rule is genies can't kill. Nobody ever said anything about genies not being able to intend to kill you.
>why not just pick up Aladdin and drop him from orbit?
He could, but what would be the point? He can't kill Aladdin, not sure what you're not getting about this rule here. Aladdin would probably land on a flying carpet.

Seems to be the case, given that Jafar tried to kill Aladdin and Abu with his newfound sorcerer powers, which were granted to him by one of Genie's wishes. If Genie couldn't even be indirectly responsible (even by his current master doing the deed with granted powers) for somebody's death, then Jafar's attempt to strand and let Al get killed in the snowy mountains wouldn't have come nearly as close to playing out as it did. Of course, as some people have suggested, "the powers that be" might have just willed it that Al got lucky with the tower window passing over him so he didn't get smashed into the snow.

Nah, Jafar wished to be the world's most powerful sorcerer. What Jafar then does with those powers is on him, not Genie. If Jafar wished for Aladdin and Abu to be sent to the arctic with no way back home so they'd freeze, I think that would be a violation of genie wish rules. If Jafar wished Aladdin was moments away from being crushed by a tower, again, I think that would be a violation of the rules.

But for Jafar to wish for sorcerer powers himself, then HE sends Aladdin to a cold death -I think powering up Jafar is far enough removed from Aladdin's death that it wouldn't violate the rule.

Otherwise you could argue that if Aladdin kills anyone ever, it's Genie's fault for saving Aladdin from drowning. Or if elephant Abu accidentally stepped on someone it's Genie's fault for creating that circumstance. I don't think this stuff is reasonable at all.

I'd argue that wishing Aladdin be stranded in the arctic = rule violation.

Wishing for sorcerer powers then stranding him in the arctic yourself = not a rule violation.

>awful animation

but it's good
inferior to the original but still good

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sorry I just copy pasted lyrics and changed your's to he's without further thinking

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That's what I said, if Genie could be held responsible for indirect killing via powers and gains given by wishes, then Jafar would have been fucked in his attempt to kill Al. And while he did fail due to Al's luck with that window, we can at least assume it was just pure luck and not a saving grace because of the cosmic magic that allowed Jafar to place Aladdin in that situation to begin with.

Seems reaching. How far does the chain of causality stretch? If I wished for a sword, and then stabbed someone to death with the sword, does that death accrue to the genie?

How about if I wished for an apple orchard, and then using the proceeds from the sale of the apples, purchased a sword, that I then stabbed someone with? But then they didn't die, and were recovering from the sword wound but then died to a secondary infection? None of this would have happened if I'd not been granted that apple orchard.

That has everything to do with how the wish is worded. If you're hyper specific, then the way the wish is granted is limited by wording.

>Jafar completely undid this wish -he didn't just change Aladdin's clothes back, he completly rewrote Aladdin's DNA back to what it was.

The problem with that is that how could Jaffar undo Genie's wish? Jaffar was still just a sorcerer empowered by a wish at that time, meaning his magic was less powerful than Genie's.

The idea is that Genie's can't actually be the one to do the act, but they can create situations where the surrounding elements will eventually kill the individual.

This seems like the most likely case. They can create a situation that is deadly, but not actively harm the person they're trying to kill. Opening a pit of lava is one thing, picking them up and dropping their ass into it is a whole other.

That's just orangeade made by our sponsor, Osaka Orangeade Concern
it's loaded with wasabi!

what's weird to me is djinn are traditionally said to be made of smokeless fire, the way angels are made of light and humans are made of earth
but in fiction every djinn is made of fireless smoke

as I recall, the islam version of the lucifer story says allah told all the animals and angels to bow down to man, but iblis or whoever was just way too fucking gay for allah, and refused to bow to anyone else
their stories are terrible
the problem with that is it's obviously a variation of the hebrew ha-satan, the accuser/prosecutor
but I'm sure they have some explanation about how the jews just made that up and inserted it into historical record

My theory is simpler. Princehood and Princesshood are physical properties in Disney stories. Some people are born with it and powerful magic can grant it or take it back.

It's why the Disney Princesses line doesn't follow the actual rank of its members to determine if so and so make the cut.

At the end of the original Aladdin after Jafar was defeated, why didn't Jasmine take the lamp, make 3 wishes, then give the lamp back to Aladdin to use his final wish to free Genie? No promises would have been broken this way and they could have gotten 3 wishes of shit.

Al's parade entourage is literally just rats and bugs that Genie transformed.

Because the thing that made Jafar get the lamp in the first place was Al pussyfooting around freeing Genie as promised in the first place, and at that point they had everything they wanted and at that point Genie was a friend too.

If they had fucked around like that i doubt Genie would have returned after getting freedom and basically done weaker mini-wishes non-stop, so it paid off too.

Genies are allowed to kill. You just aren't allowed to WISH them to kill.

Esto se acabó Jafar!

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This.

>Genies are allowed to kill. You just aren't allowed to WISH them to kill.
>This.
What would make you idiots come up with a retarded lie like that? It's in the fucking movie. I don't understand what's motivating you here.
springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=return-of-jafar-the
>Don't worry, Abu,
>He's a genie,,,
>and genies can't kill anyone,
>[Roars]
>[Coughs]
>But you'd be surprised
>what you can live through

Jafar doesn't know all the rules, and Aladdin is a moron.

But also this is genies we're talking about. Circumventing the rules of their imprisonment to fuck with people is their entire shtick.

In the first movie, when Genie saved Aladdin from drowning, he tried really hard to get him to wish for it, and eventually took an involuntary head movement as a nod. Whether this is because Genie REQUIRED a wish, or just didn't want to be cheated out of another wish is up in the air, but it still suggests that he didn't HAVE to save him, he just wanted to.