Does anyone else think that modern mainstream media has become extremely anti-Batman in recent years...

Not to mention the metric shitton of Batman comics every month.

Batman, Detective Comics, and? If you're talking about the Black Label comics, Superman and Wonder Woman are also going to get a lot of them.

Yeah Supes is misguided but Batman is fucking Jesus and can do no wrong.

I think you missed OP's point entirely, friend.

Its not about Batman "not getting enough attention". He's talking about all the emphasis in his flaws and tendency to push the edge and become something that has to be stopped rather than a hero who fights evil.

Batman's plans never work and he's constantly getting fucked over by Superman and his Regime. The comics and games even try to pin some of the blame of Superman's heel turn on Batman. Going as far as implying that Batman can be just as bad as Superman to the world despite Superman being the villain.

The modern take on Batman is that he's an asshole. If it looks to you like modern Batman is an asshole then congratulations, you're not retarded.
And the worst part? Batcasual's are to blame. "Gatekeeping" has become a dirty word in the scene but this is what you get when you don't shame the next generation into reading the old issues. A whole generation grew up with TDKR as their headcanon and no understanding of why it's a deconstruction. Modern Batman is the result.

He's just another butthurt Superman fanboy mad that DC is devoting some of their money to Batman instead of Superman, which he probably feels should be "rightfully" the main focus of attention. He doesn't stop to think that Batman mech usually return said investment.

You know damn well Batman is going to get more than all the other characters.

Batman Damned
Batman Last Knight on Earth
Bimonthly Batman
Bimonthly Detective
Batman Beyond
Batman TMNT
Batman Who Laughs
Bimonthly Justice League

That's just off the top of my head.

Nevermind the other comics where Batman still appears because god forbid I read a Superman comic without Batman appearing.

>The comics and games even try to pin some of the blame of Superman's heel turn on Batman
Metropolis got blown up because Batman couldn't keep tabs on the Joker.

Wish Flash got a fraction of this attention. Hell, I'll sit through all the Barry-Wally brawls and timeline faggotry here if it means either get another comic or a movie that isn't cringeworthy just to read the synopsis.

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Are you really counting Batman Beyond and Justice League?

Bimonthly Superman
Bimonthly Action Comics
Bimonthly Justice League
Superman: Year One
Superman Smashes the Klan
Superman of Smallville
Leviathan Event
Lois Lane

Not to mention several other comics that count with his continued presence like Wonder Twins.

It's not Batman fault that there's not much interest for the Flash outside of the TV show.

Batman's not allowed to be likable anymore. He's gotta brood and beat up people and wangst about muh parents.

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Action Comics and Superman are monthly now, user.

The fuck, why? Bendis is slow or something?

I quite clearly showed OP was full of shit by pointing out the vast majority of Batman media portrays him as a hero.
You’re retarded. I’m an Aquafag first and a Flashfag second. I merely mentioned Hush to point out it’s yet another story where Superman gets mindcontrolled/goes evil and Batman stops him, yet OP is whining that Batman is the one who gets shown as evil.

BvS, Titans, Detective Comics, Batman, Red Hood, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, Harley Quinn... i could go on. Just because a shitty animated movie is going to adapt Hush badly that doesn't absolve all these comics from portraying Batman as an asshole and/or the antagonist.

>You mean Superman
You must be fucking joking. Batman was ABSOLUTELY the main fucking protagonist of the Injustice games. Superman is a complete moron and totally unsympathetic and unlikeable after all the shit he did.
>Yes, he's a villain, but the game revolves around him
It’s told from Batman’s POV you mongoloid. See this is why no one feels bad for you Batfags. Even when you get a shitload of games that portray your guy as the hero who kicks everyone’s ass you still fucking whine. Where’s my fucking Flash game? Where’s my fucking Aquaman game? Or WW? Don’t fucking tell me you can’t make games with those guys. But no it’s yet another shitty ass BamHam game where Batman and the Joker jack each other off. You guys are the biggest fucking whiners ever. Aquaman made MORE FUCKING MONEY AT THE BOX OFFICE THAN TDK yet there’s no fucking game for HIM. He gets jack shit.

of course, all batman related characters needs to disassociate from him somehow to shiny, especially as a father figure

>fuck batman!
said almost every robin

>BvS, Titans, Detective Comics, Batman, Red Hood, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, Harley Quinn
BvS was dogshit dude, no one looked good because Snyder is a hack.
Titans, TT, and Red Hood are just Dick, Damian, and Jason being whiny bitches, Batman never even actually went evil in Titans. Damian is clearly in the wrong in TT and it’s going to blow up in his face. Jason is just barely on the side of good these days.
Tomasi Tec and Harley Quinn are shit give me a break.
How did Batman look bad in Deathstroke? Slade was the real bastard.

The premise of Batman, once you take away any sort of nuance to him or his villains is: rich kid beats up mentally ill people. Maybe that's striking people the wrong way? I don't know. Modern day media is trying way too hard to deconstruct everything. It's similar to what The Last Jedi was trying so damn hard to achieve by "deconstructing" the Jedi.

It's generally DC's second best selling non-event or miniseries comic behind Batman, I'd hardly call that meager interest.

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The game was told through the Resistance point of view, but every cut scene tries to alleviate Superman's wrongdoing by pining the blaming on another character. They want Superman both as a tragic villain as well as a redeemable hero and flip-flop between the two portrayals while casting shade to the rest of the cast.

And Aquaman movie making money doesn't mean much when his only comic continues to sell poorly. The new writer even gave the character the movie's tattoos. I bet you ten internet points this won't help the sales at all. So why would DC give Aquaman a new comic? Even then DC is trying with Mera despite the minis never selling much.

When i said Titans, i meant the TV show. Where he's shown as a terrible person and corruptive element that destroy people's lives.
But you're agreeing with me anyway that Batman is portrayed as the antagonist in several comics. Something you usually don't see with Superman. I'm not seeing Supergirl or Superboy complain about Superman, but that's common occurrence in any Batman axillary character's solo. It has been for a long time.
And Batman was the villain in BvS, while Superman was the hero. Stop trying to make up excuses.

Didn't the prequels already do that?

The Flash #64 was a crossover with the Batman title. That's why it received a bump in sales.

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See Batman being blamed for what happens in Heroes in Crisis alongside Wally West.

Not that Aquaman and WW don't deserve games, but I do have to wonder how you'd make a game that'd best demonstrate their fighting ability outside an FG. With Batman, it's easy because stealth games have been tried-and-true tested since 80s/90s with MGS, Splinter Cell, and Thief.

With WW you'd probably have to go the character action Bayo/Revengeance route but WB hasn't really looked into working with or hiring a studio that can do those kind of games well.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to make an Aquaman game.

Batman was already blamed for what happened to Wally in that cross-over.

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>but every cut scene tries to alleviate Superman's wrongdoing by pining the blaming on another character
Not when he fucking melted Billy’s brain it didn’t. That was all him and they rub it in your face.
>They want Superman both as a tragic villain as well as a redeemable hero and flip-flop between the two portrayals while casting shade to the rest of the cast.
No they don’t. They slammed the door shut on any possible redemption in Injustice 2. Injustice Superman is irredeemable by his own choice because he won’t stop fucking killing. And even if NRS wanted that Superman is fucking irredeemable already by virtue of killing and crippling kids, all the shit he did in the comics, and by LITERALLY BEING SUPERHITLER. He’s a cartoonish supervillain, he could only be “redeemed” by fucking dying.
>And Aquaman movie making money doesn't mean much when his only comic continues to sell poorly.
Oh fuck off, you think if Aquaman got a 1/3 of the push Batman gets in the comics he wouldn’t sell? He supported two fucking series when Geoff Johns was on the book. DC is sabatoging him by putting that hack KSD in charge. Don’t come crying to ME about how hard you’ve got it when my favorite literally proved he can be a billion dollar powerhouse like Batgod when DC fucking tries.

Batman is being raped in comics as well, but they still keep on selling well despite being shitty. So i don't see how KSD being in charge of the Aquaman ongoing can affect sales for the worse when it's proven that quality of story isn't a factor.

And back in the New 52 The Others was literally on life-support.

With the prequels, it was unintentional. It was clear the Jedi way was supposed to be the right way as once Anakin strays from it, he becomes evil. The Jedi council are never portrayed as being in the wrong. TLJ did it intentionally and only after the years of analyses and think pieces tearing into the prequels which it was clearly influenced by.

The Flash ongoing is over 60 issues long right now and its still getting more sales than many other series--most younger and newer, and sales decline with time with a few exceptions.
Hell, plenty of series have stopped or been moved to monthly shipments. Even with sales in the 40k range if you exclude the Batman crossover story arc, it is higher than most.

Batman the success that he is today because a lot of things came together in the right moment.

The Tim Burton movie had just been released and was a monster success, the animated cartoon came right after and capitalized on the buss, and there were a lot of graphic novels starring Batman being published at the moment. This all coupled with Batman already being a known and popular entity.

So for Aquaman's movie success to translate to comics, there'd have to be a genuine and well-made action cartoon based on Geoff Johns' run. Something i simple don't see happening in the current scenario. CN would kill the cartoon out of pettiness. Look at what they're currently doing with the Supehero Girls cartoon - a cartoon meant to be a Wonder Woman vehicle.

>Where he's shown as a terrible person and corruptive element that destroy people's lives.
No he isn’t, Dick is just a fucking whiner. Did you miss that Dick fell under Trigon’s control because he couldn’t let go of his butthurt for Bruce? Dick is in the wrong.
>Something you usually don't see with Superman
What? Uh did you miss Injustice, Earth 2, or that Doomed event? How many times has Supes been mindcontrolled and fought the League?
>I'm not seeing Supergirl or Superboy complain about Superman
Then you’re not reading their solos. For the entire New 52 Supergirl and Superman were at odds. They were at odds recently in Bendis Superman too. Kon only recently got back so we’ll see what happens with him.
>And Batman was the villain in BvS, while Superman was the hero
It was a shit movie though, so I fail to see how it negatively impacted Batman at all. He’s getting a new solo movie that ignores it completely. Snyder was building up to Superman being the real villain and now Supes is gone for the foreseeable future. Superfags have more cause to bitch about BvS than you do. Batman was up front and center in the JL marketing so it’s not like they even treated Batman like a villain for more than a second.

Seriously this “woe is us Batfags DC treats us sooooo badly” is pathetic. You have gotten PLENTY of stuff that makes your guy look good. Meanwhile I’m just waiting for DC to cancel Terrifics so my guy Mr. Terrific can fall back into Limbo. You don’t have to worry about that shit, how many ongoings is Batman up to these days? 5?

BvS was a great movie. Shut your whore mouth.

>Batman is being raped in comics as well
Yeah but you have 80 year back log to read. Batman has the highest amount of quality stories period bar none. Us Aquafags? We have pathetically little in comparison. Aquaman has had his title frequently cancelled because he wasn’t “cool” and he got stuffed during the DCAU when Timm and Dini stoke his spot from him on the JL.

Batman is only ever shown in the context of being a monster in the Titans show. It doesn't matter if Dick is a whiner when he's the shows protagonist and only voice ever heard. Stop making excuses.
>INJUSTICE
You mean the game where a good Superman fights the bad Superman?
>Earth 2
You mean the comic where Superman was killed by Darkseid? Or are you referring to the clone made that was eventually killed off by the new Superman?
>Doomed
You mean the comic where Superman fought against being overtaken by the Doomsday virus and eventually saved the day against Brainiac attempt to take over the Earth? That comic? It doesn't even compared to Metal where Batman was the one dooming everyone with his bullheadedness, and several evil versions of him tried to take over the multiverse. Superman was ultimately noble and victorious in Doomed.
>New 52 Supergirl
Something that happened ages ago and where eventually Supergirl became pretty close to Superman. Their spat lasted only until the first cross-over - H'Ell on Earth.

And the reason Superman isn't receiving any new movie is because Superman fans are notorious cry babies that aren't happy with anything but their head-canon.

Batman is a retarded control freak with weapons to kill his own friends because he didn't want to hurt a psychotic rapist.

Of course people are going to be pissed.

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>make an imprint dedicated to bringing back some of DC's weirder concepts in a tribute/echo of pre-Vertigo titles.
>one of them is literally just a Batbook with a Donut Steel protagonist

Was this editorial mandate or was Way just letting a friend finally get their fanfic published?

Every Justice League character have weapons capable of killing their friends, it's just that Batman's are man-made.

Well, we know what NOT to do with an Aquaman game.

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People are tired of championing a rich person as their savior.

>Batman is only ever shown in the context of being a monster in the Titans show
Not really.

Yes, really. Maybe that will change in season two. Lets see.

>You mean the game where a good Superman fights the bad Superman?
No I mean the game where Batman is the resistance leader against dictator Superman because MUH UNDERDOG.
>Superman fans are notorious cry babies that aren't happy with anything but their head-canon
You lack such self-awareness that you must get surprised everytime you see your reflection.

And where good Superman saves the day by defeating the bad Superman? Because that's the plot of the first INJUSTICE. Even Batman from Injustice Earth was shown to be a major dick in comparison to Batman from the good universe.

You know how Superman has been deconstructed to death and back because he was written for decades as being perfect and incorruptible?

Preptime drove people to this state with Batman.
Bats has literally has the perfect solution to absolutely everything since fucking No Man's Land. Even Brother Eye was written in a way where all Bats had to do was flip a switch andit was still mostly portrayed as something the other heroes forced him into doing. It's not for nothing that the OPENING ACT

I doubt Aquaman has a chunk of Kryptonite in arm's reach at a moment's notice and I'm pretty sure Superman could crush the Flash's spine just as easily as Green Lantern's if he had to. That's superpowers.
Anyway, the point is that Batman actively created or gathered weapons to use against his friends and exploit their weaknesses. He could've sucked it up but his psychosis demands he be in control of fucking everything.
He's a regular human with gadgets and essentially limitless funds. He should be street level or a step above at best, but he's been raised onto some pedestal of batwankery where he kills literal gods.

>t's not for nothing that the OPENING ACT
Finish you fuck.

>He should be street level or a step above at best
No, he shouldn't. Power-levels are dumb and i'm glad that Batman exist to prove it. Superman shouldn't be better than others just because of superpowers. Or the Flash. Or Green Lantern. In an ideal scenario each one of them could take the other. I remember the days when a single Green Lantern could make Superman cry uncle. Those were the good days.

>this thread

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It's just one Superman friend pretending to be fan of other characters. See how he doesn't complain about Superman getting any exposure, just Batman.

Hey!

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Yeah, I'm he has 14 other proxies on standby just to talk to himself...

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>And where good Superman saves the day by defeating the bad Superman?
What does that matter when Batman is framed as the heroic underdog? You're whining that Batman is rough around the edges in a cool anti-hero way but Superman killed Billy Batson.

Batman will always be the underdog when standing next to Superman. It's impossible not to. EVERYONE is an underdog when compared to Superman. Even Darkseid.

>Be friends with a Batman fan
>He has a whole room of his home dedicated to Bat merch, statues, etc. Even fucking Batman-themed Christmas lights. It's insane.
>Dozens of Batman Black and White porcelain statues at the least, nevermind the rest.
>Be Flash fan
>Have half a dozen statues, most of which are just cheap pvc plastic.

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I agree to a degree, most people just seem like they REALLY wanna do their "epic batman character study that shows he's actually crazier than his enemies" shit

He was embargoed in JL because of a planned Aquaman tv show because WB is retarded

At least Batman gets his deconstruction drivel. The rest of us will just twiddle our thumbs waiting for DC to stop milking the fucking bat ad nauseam.

Case in point, the original lineup.

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Well, Batman fans buy stuffs.

He's been getting that shit for years, it's already gotten old.

But isn't Batman's prep generally designed to make him the villain/monster/source of all the problems? Batman building Brother Eye was pretty much one of the greatest destructive acts in the history of comics. By this point, Batman has done more harm than good. He is not a hero. He's a misguided villain.

The powers that be wanted to turn Batman into a jerk. They went too far and now most people in the mainstream consciousness believe him to be a killer.

Pretty much. Batman's preptime is shown as nothing but hubris brought upon by paranoia and arrogance.

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I remember this distinct dialogue from the film Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. I honestly remember it to a tee because even though I only saw the film as a child, I watched it a great deal of times (mainly because I had little else to do):

>Reeves: "I'm telling you, friends! It's vigilantism at its deadliest! How many times are we gonna let Batman cross the line?"
>Gordon: "I'm sorry, Councilman, but you can't blame Batman for what happened to Chuckie Saw. (Sol? Sow?)"
>Reeves: "Why not? He's a loose cannon, Commissioner! It's not just my opinion, a lot of people, INCLUDING the police, I might add, think Batman's as unstable as the crooks he brings in! What kind of a city are we running, when we rely on the support of a potential madman?!"

Also this one:
>Reeves: "What do you mean?! You have to go after him!"
>Gordon: "He didn't do it! It's garbage, Reeves! The Batman does not kill! Period!"
>Gordon: "You want him? You get him. I'll have no part in it."

Kinda wonder why Gordon's supportive of Batman in the DCEU.

Mark Waid's Tower of Babel - Batman let his non-lethal plans meant to disarm any rogue member of the Justice League to fall into Ra's al Ghul hands, who turn said plans lethal with some modifications.
Greg Rucka's The OMAC Project - Batman let his artificially intelligent spy satellite built to observe the members of the Justice League fall into Maxwell Lord's hands, who use it to control the nanobots controlled human populace.
Geoff Johns' Trinity War - Batman let his secret boxes containing weapons specifically designed to bring down the members of the Justice League fall into Earth-3 Alfred's hands, who use them against the Justice League in preparation for the Crime Sindicate invasion of Earth.

There are probably more, like Futures End.

>But isn't Batman's prep generally designed to make him the villain/monster/source of all the problems?
Objectively no like shit user do you even read Batman comics or do you just complain about them
The persecution complex here is through the roof where you can't even joke about Batman.

See . Batman's perfectly laid plans always end up being used as weapons by the villains. The blame always resting on Batman for his arrogance and carelessness. What's your argument now?

And the great irony is that you guys are casuals who only know a couple of stories.

Three stories and it becomes always. But none of you asshole will mention Grant Morrison's Batman where his preptime is what saves the day.

Not to mention that the writers always make a point of showing that Batman's plans aren't even that great to begin with. Like in Forever Evil, where Batman and Lex find some of his boxes and try to use the weapons against the Crime Sindicate, but they all prove to be duds. Like the Lighting Rod he planned on using against the Flash that was only good for a single hit of lightning.

You mean the story where Batman's preptime is him basically having faith that his friends will save his ass because he realized that the first truth of Batman is that he always had help in his crusade since the beginning? You mean that story?

That's because Batman's prep time is generally most effective when it fucks the heroes over.

My argument you basic bitch batfag, you know how many issues tower of Babel was?
Three issues. Out of 125 issues of JLA where Batman was there with his preptime bullshit you asshole are angry over three issues.

Which is never done by him, because writers want to show his hubris. Basically writers want to show that the idea of making plans against your friends is bad, no matter the context, because friendship is important, and Batman has to learn to be a better friend.

user, i'm sorry, but i feel that for you just the fact that Batman is in the JL and can be a contributing member of the time is already batwank and preptime bullshit, because he's a mere human and they're gods. Am i wrong?

>You mean the story where Batman's preptime is him basically having faith that his friends will save his ass because he realized that the first truth of Batman is that he always had help in his crusade since the beginning?
No you dumb shithead, I'm talking about Batman of Zur-En-Arrh.

The back-up personality? That's your big complaint?

I dunno. I mean, Superman's been mind controlled before. Having contingency plans against him is probably a good idea. Plus there's also Bizarro running around. There's also Zoom, who's an evil Flash. Having contingencies against the Flash means you'd have contingencies against Zoom.

Actually, if you think about it, even if Batman doesn't even necessarily NEED contingencies against his friends, observing them and coming up with contingencies against villains who have the exact same powers is pretty much the same thing anyway. Black Adam, Zoom, cis Martians, Bizarro, the list really does go on.

>Am i wrong?
Of fucking course you are you presumptive shit.

I don't have any complaints about it so I don't even know what you're talking about.

So shut up, because in Morrison's JLA everyone was on their A-game. Even Green Arrow killed Darkseid with an atomic arrow.

How about you and all the other Batfags who come crying about how Batman isn't being praised 24/7 shut the fuck up?

No, fuck you. I'll always complain about a character being portrayed wrongly.
If you truly believe that, then nobody should complain about Bendis run on Superman, right? I mean, Superman had movies, cartoons, comics, games, and so on. Superman fans should just suck up the awful runs because Aquaman or the Flash didn't have as good as him. See how retarded that is?

>I'll always complain about a character being portrayed wrongly.
Why? Because Batman isn't literally perfect and he has believable flaws means he's being written wrongly? Because The Robins act like individuals and not like brainwashed Cult members?
What's the actual problem here?

>I'll always complain about a character being portrayed wrongly.
How is Batman supposed to act? Decades of developing him into a one man war on crime and all off sudden you're demanding Batquips?

I want more than Batman just being an asshole or wrong all the time.

>wrong all the time.
This is what makes you a little Batbitch user, saying objectively fake shit like this.
No, Batman is not wrong ALL THE TIME
batman isn't even wrong MOST OF THE TIME, absolutely no one, and I mean literally no one, is portraying Batman as being wrong ALL THE TIME.

Batman is wrong most of the times. He's always doing the villains job for them.

>Batman is wrong most of the times.
He isn't and I can't prove a negative to you so I can only point to the fact that's he still a fucking superhero.

>he's still a superhero
Is he?

Really I'm questioning how you define personal accountability. Like how is Batman in the wrong? Can you answer me that, why do you think Batman is in the wrong.

You tell me because apparently saving lives or putting away psychotic criminals isn't good enough for you. The writers are not the ones who have a problem with Batman, it's really all you who has a problem with Batman.
Let's find out why.

So I guess the major question is what has Batman done to offend you?

Batman hasn't been saving any lives, but his own for a good time. If anything he has been doing nothing but doom the lives of innocents.

>Batman hasn't been saving any lives
But he has; this is not up to debate either as anytime Batman stops a psychotic criminal is proof that Batman is saving lives.

Which psychotic criminal has he stopped lately?

>If anything he has been doing nothing but doom the lives of innocents
How exactly?

>Which psychotic criminal has he stopped lately?
KGBeast but once again this is not something up to debate. Anytime Batman is fighting a supervillain he is stopping a psychotic criminal and therefore saving lives.

Name me a time where he has doomed innocent lives.
And no, not being able to save someone is not the same as dooming innocent people.

Metal.

Who died in Metal that you can say died because of Batman and not the villain.

The villains got their way because of Batman, and most of them were Batmen themselves.

>The villains got their way because of Batman
How and why is the onus on Batman and not the villain?

Because if it weren't for Batman's stupidity and actions, the villains would have never been successful.

You're not giving me a reason why Batman should be blamed for the villain's actions.

>How and why is the onus on Batman and not the villain?
Well, the villains were Batmen, for starters, it's a way of saying that his nightmares alone are just that powerful and dangerous .

Nearly 80 years of a furry who never gets beaten is genuinely boring; especially when his fans insist that he can beat anyone and its only his haters that keep him from doing so.

Batfags killed him before he could make his point.

Preptime drove people to this state with Batman.
Bats has literally had the perfect solution to absolutely everything since fucking No Man's Land. Even Brother Eye was written in a way where all Bats had to do was flip a switch and it was still mostly portrayed as something the other heroes forced him into doing. It's not for nothing that the OPENING ACT of Endgame was Batman singlehandedly beating the whole Justice League. After a while, all of his stories are basically the same format as a Hulk Hogan match: Batman is kicking ass and being amazing. Then the bad guy gets the upper hand for a moment; could Bats be in trouble? NOPE, cause preptime kicked in, all of this was all according to keikaku, and Batman wins without breaking a sweat.

People won't admit it, but they loved Dr. Hurt and the Court of Owls because preptime wasn't fucking working and Batman was genuinely up against the wall.

Yup. He's an asshole, he creates more problems for Gotham, generally he seems incompetent. His sidekicks all hate him and they all outclass him at in some aspect. He's usually at fault for being too paranoid when in team books, creates problems for the team rarely actually helps out in a significant way. He constantly gets outsmarted or his ass kicked, and not just when guest starring, but even in his own titles.
It's all so tiresome...

The imprint was uncreative derivative bullshit. As for Mother Panic, she's a Way creation but he didn't have the free schedule to write her ongoing so he passed her along.

Didn't say anything about quality; the whole point of Young Animal was to bring back weirdo stories to DC. Mother Panic just felt out of place with "Revival of Doom Patrol", "CW's Shade the Changing Man", and "Adventure Time with Literally Who and Friends".

Speaking of JL, does anyone have a old teaser trailer for JL that had like kids and shit like walkers shooting shit?
I remember seeing it in a thread a while back and just wanna make sure I'm not going crazy