STORYTIME: JUDAS
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bump
Why don't you just post a link to the previous thread? I'm pretty sure this was strorytimed not so long ago.
I don't think it was. If it was i don't have the link. It takes so long to upload this thing.
I storytimed it back in February, I think? I wanted to do it again in Easter but this user beat me to it
Man, Yea Forums is full of interesting storytimes tonight. I like it!
sorrry
Man this is great
Lucifer did nothing wrong 2bh
Fuck this is GOOD
I read this the other day. I was pretty impressed. The artwork at times is just jaw-dropping. The script is compelling every step of the way. Just a fantastic comic.
he was too small minded
also ill be gone for a bit ill be back a bit later
seems like Jesus played himself more like
Kino af
When this is done, will you provide a download link?
Stuff like this makes me realize just how interesting Christian mythology can be. I'd kill for a comic book adaptation of the Bible. So many incredible stories in there, so many ways to interpret them
Throw it to the Allreds.
Tell them they get to make a comic for the Book of Mormon, but first they have to cover the Old and New Testaments, and maybe some Apocrypha.
>Throw it to the Allreds.
Lol I wish. Allred is my favorite artist by far. I'd read a fucking cookbook drawn by him
is that an angel?
Those are Cherubim, to be specific.
uhhh, what happened to the storytime?
Well OP? Don't leave us hanging.
OP did say they would be back
I copied the images from Readcomicsonline but ill see if I can
I have returned to finish the job.
love the colors
Fuck
Listening to Lady Gaga while reading this.
oh shit
Love this page
Lmao I was thinking the same thing.
JUD-AH
JUDA-AH-AH
bump
hffffffffff
also can I just say I love how the comic continuously gives him the black "holy" aura.
it is finished
that was sick
>that first panel
I'm slightly teary-eyed.
Right in the fucking feels.
Can a nigga get a download link? That was beautiful.
Judas NO!
DON'T DO IT.
>that second panel
hot
I'd heard good things about this comic and jumped into the storytime when I saw it.
I was not disappointed.
Thanks for taking the time, OP.
>all of hell was made for you
Well that's not very nice.
Thank you. I'd like to think there is another version where Jesus is almost consumed by the endless pit and Judas converts the repentant masses in Hell.
The demons try to consume all who try to accept him, but Jesus returns with his full might.
He then transfers the sins of the world bubbling under his skin and bones through the many cuts and wounds he had sustained, having it take all the unrepentant fallen and Lucifer into the pit with the physical manifestation of sin.
He then takes the repentant and the seemingly innocent with Jacob's Ladder onto heaven.
He reunites with Adam and Eve who had been there since the beginning, along with all the rest and Judas.
After he returns to heaven amidst countless praises, he returns to Earth to fulfill his promise after three days.
He then wakes up in a dark tomb. All the ache and pain in his body is now gone. No flagellation wounds, black eye, shaved hair, hunger in his stomach, heat stroke, twisted ligaments; just holes in his wrists and between his toe bones.
He is naked, where on the orders of his mother who knew he would rise again, only left him a fresh change of clothing and the myrrh that was given to him by the wise men 33 years ago.
After he dresses and freshens himself up, the tomb door gives way, startling a few birds but not the sleeping Roman guards before his person.
Don't mention it!
based
This is really good.
Man, I love Judas.
Sequel of Judas being the Jesus of Hell when?
Just looked on libgen, but they only have 3 issues. Anyone got a download for the whole thing?
>power of friendship
just like in my shounens
power of forgiveness more like
Stuff like this is how you know that people who claim "comics suck nowadays" only read capes. This is as good as any of the classics.
>Judas is the Jesus of the underworld
This should be canon desu
I loved this one thanks for posting it for others
Its a halo.
Much appreciated user, I only ever read the first part.
Yah, couldn't remember the word.
ANYONE?
This guy is also on ReadComicsOnline
I'm putting it on Megashare right now, it'll take a while so make sure to bump this tread and keep it alive
BLESS YOU
The art is so amazing and the story so well crafted that anyone should enjoy it no matter how much they tip their fedora
Yeah this. I'm very anti-religion but I can still recognize the wealth of incredible stories and lessons within the Bible. It's worth reading for that alone.
You're welcome!
Too bad the enjoyable stories are buried within such tedium
And bless you too.
Yeah. What would be cool is a condensed prose treatment like Robert Grave's Greek Myths
>no man is given my name again
:(
Shit, that was beautiful. It reminds me a lot to The Prince of Egypt in the way that even if you are not religious, it still is very enjoyable.
I mean did he really think he could win?
Heck, he's the devil, you know.
Judas: Book One - mega.nz
Judas: Book Two -
mega.nz
Judas: Book Three -
mega.nz
Judas: Book Four-
mega.nz
Thanks, user
I heard the author talk about this on a podcast while he was still writing it, and this was the perfect night to stumble across it again.
To...devilish...for his own good
heh
Any interesting take-aways?
Thanks
I just finished "Judas Iscariot and the Others” by Leonid Andreyev, so this seems like an appropriate read right about now.
I've been reading up lately on the whole idea of salvation in Christianity, and I think this comic does a good job pointing out some of the weirdness of the way it's normally understood. The whole "Damning some and saving others because that's their role in the story" thing.
The typical model is called penal substitutionary atonement, and it's the idea that Jesus died to pay for humanity's cosmic debt to God. Lately, I've come around to the Christus Victor philosophy of salvation. That by going to that "Death of Hope" place in , Jesus isn't just squaring our debt to God, but going to the lowest place possible and suffering to rebuild every bad thing from the ground up. Even hell itself.
I finally bought the trade of this. I should get around to reading it.
Why would he build it up? For what purpose?
Is it to fulfill his vow to rebuild the temple or what?
It's interesting. You can actually see the idea of heaven and hell evolving in the Bible, and you realize something. The writers didn't *know*. They talk about nothingness, or some sort of cold underworld, or a place of torment vs a place of paradise. It goes from "Our dead will be avenged" to "Our dead shall be raised" to "We shall be saved, the living and dead alike". But one thing is consistent: they trust God to be just, and they trust God to surpass their expectations.
So basically, I see the follow up to this comic like this. Millennia later, Jesus once again breaches the borders of Hell and invites everyone, damned and demon alike, to join the new world. And just like in the story of the prodigal son, those Christians who preach hell and judgment don't understand. The damned had their chance. But there Jesus stands regardless. The story surprises them all again. Just like the first time Jesus descended into Hell, it continues past what we thought was the end.
/unironic Christfagging
There's reason to support your idea.
It stands that if "God is All Forgiving", then eventually even the damned will enter paradise.
Hell isn't eternal and infinite suffering, it's the ultimate form of the naughty corner.
sounds like some of origens theology
I disagree, you certainly have the text matched to the angel but the image of those creatures is closer to the Revelation's depiction of the chayot than in Ezekiel's. Even saying that they have four wings is false to the image. I also think these aren't cherubim because they don't seem like guardians and are not anywhere near God.
Thanks for the fantastic story, OP. That was really something special.
If anything this comic is more likely too offend christians as it does and asserts plenty of things most denominations would consider heretical:
>portraying Judas in a sympathetic light and even going as far as to make Jesus require his forgiveness
>portraying Lucifer as sympathetic and, at worst, as misguided, instead of as the willful antagonist to all that is good
>asserting that free will basically doesn't exist (something that was believed by some schools and was very controversial)
>implying God and Jesus are not omnipotent
"Behold, I am making all things new."
I don't really mean literally rebuilding hell, but yeah, the temple is a good metaphor. Building something new out of desolation.
I look at the story as a widening spiral. It starts with God's promise to one man, Abraham. Then it widens to his immediate family, and then the tribe they eventually comprise. For a long time, it's the Israelites against the world. In this time, Jewish thinking evolves accordingly. The Promised Land becomes more than just a physical place.
But then the first twist happens. The Messiah isn't just for the Jews. The spiral grows to include Gentiles. The Promised Land is now the promise of a new Earth. So does it stop expanding there? Why should it? "Behold, I am making all things new." All things? Shouldn't we have learned by now to be ready to be surprised? Time and time again, the story is wider than we thought and better than we hoped. Why should that stop now?
Yeah he definitely talked about a lot of these kind of ideas. Origen was an interesting dude.
You're welcome. I'm glad I get to read stories like this with the people that care about it. Like you!
Well while it does say everyone has a role in things isn’t there still some matter of choice involved? Plus I think the story plays god straight him being all powerful and omnipotent, but Jesus is less god and more man so he’s definitely limited and doesn’t know everything But I guess the story leaves it to the reader weather God is good or not
First Comment
>Story timing this on Good Friday
Based
Everything in Origen’s theology ultimately turns upon the goodness of God and the freedom of the creature. The transcendent God is the source of all existence and is good, just, and omnipotent. This omnipotence is never mere power emptied of moral quality; one cannot appeal to it to rationalize absurdity or the extraordinary. In overflowing love, God created rational and spiritual beings through the Logos (Word); this creative act involves a degree of self-limitation on God’s part.
In relation to the created order, God is both conditioned and unconditioned, free and under necessity, since he is both transcendent to and immanently active in it. In one sense, the cosmos is eternally necessary to God since one cannot conceive such goodness and power as inactive at any time. Yet in another sense, the cosmos is not necessary to God but is dependent on his will, to which it also owes its continued existence. Origen was aware that there is no solution of this dilemma. The rational beings, however, neglected to adore God and fell. The material world was created by God as a means of discipline (and its natural catastrophes such as earthquakes and plagues remind man that this world is not his ultimate destiny). Origen speculated that souls fell varying distances, some to be angels, some descending into human bodies, and the most wicked becoming devils. (Origen believed in the preexistence of souls, but not in transmigration nor in the incorporation of rational souls in animal bodies.) Redemption is a grand education by providence, restoring all souls to their original blessedness, for none, not even Satan, is so depraved and has so lost rationality and freedom as to be beyond redemption. God never coerces, though with reformative intention he may punish. His punishments are remedial; even if simple believers may need to think of them as retributive, this is pedagogic accommodation to inferior capacity, not the truth.
The climax of redemption is the incarnation of the preexistent Son. One soul had not fallen but had remained in adoring union with the Father. Uniting himself with this soul, the divine Logos, who is the second hypostasis (Person) of the triad of Father, Son, and Spirit (subordinate to the Father but on the divine side of the gulf between infinite Creator and finite creation), became incarnate in a body derived from the Virgin Mary. So intense was the union between Christ’s soul and the Logos that it is like the union of body and soul, of white-hot iron and fire. Like all souls Christ’s had free will, but the intensity of union destroyed all inclination for change, and the Logos united to himself not only soul but also body, as was apparent when Jesus was transfigured. Origen, influenced by a semi-Gnostic writing, the Acts of John, thought that Jesus’ body appeared differently to different observers according to their spiritual capacities. Some saw nothing remarkable in him, others recognized in him their Lord and God. In his commentary on St. John, Origen collected titles of Christ, such as Lamb, Redeemer, Wisdom, Truth, Light, Life. Though the Father is One, the Son is many and has many grades, like rungs in a ladder of mystical ascent, steps up to the Holy of Holies, the beatific vision.
The union of God and man in Christ is pattern for that of Christ and the believer. The individual soul, as well as the church, is the bride of the Logos, and the mystery of that union is portrayed in the Song of Solomon, Origen’s commentary on which was regarded by Jerome (in the period of his enthusiasm for Origen) as his masterpiece. Thus, redemption restores fallen souls from matter to spirit, from image to reality, a principle directly exemplified both in the sacraments and in the inspired biblical writings, in which the inward spirit is veiled under the letter of law, history, myth, and parable. The commentator’s task is to penetrate the allegory, to perceive within the material body of Scripture its soul and spirit, to discover its existential reference for the individual Christian. Correct exegesis (critical interpretation) is the gift of grace to those spiritually worthy.
nice
what are origens thoughts on hell?
>Origen was aware that there is no solution of this bullshit.
You know what, I can play along with this.
Skipped a page though it's a cool cut if it's omitted
I was looking for that, thank you!
cant believe i'm almost crying, thanks OP been a while since i felt that from a comic.
The black halo is such peak religious iconography and works flawlessly into the narrative of the story and source material.
I especially liked how the comic acknowledges flaws in the Bible and incorporates them into a more cohesive narrative. In my opinion the New Testament was a collection of fanfics of the Torah which was itself a collaboration of oral traditions made-text to fit a historical narrative so as far as I'm concerned this is canon. My head canon is also that in this version of Christ actually fulfills the messianic old testament prophecy and makes the world perfect again
The whole sympathetic Judas angle was totally in line with Luke's attempt at portraying him in a positive light, the allusion to Abraham and Isaac juxtaposed to God's sacrifice of Jesus seemed liked a brilliant metaphor, the depictions of angels as creepy monstrosities is pretty true to text. I also love how Jesus and God seem themselves bound by destiny and how despite God's ability to see into the future, that there is no option to change what will occur because it really presents even their otherwise malicious and odd behavior as tragic and can I just say HOLY SHIT THIS WAS GORGEOUS. Props all around for art and content.
This is definitely not a pro-Christianity comic and would probably ruffle the feathers of anyone who took the bible literally, but it uses Christianity in such a gentle and accurate way that I can't really see anyone even disliking it unless they didn't read it through.
It's one of the few comics I've ever bought on impulse, after seeing it in a /shelf/ thread.
I'm a frugal bastard, so that doesn't hardly ever happen.
Sits perfectly next to my copy of The Goddamned.
Maybe OP could storytime that tomorrow.
most welcome
>God's a cunt: the story time
God is most definitely a cunt
>make us smart enough to ponder out existence but not smart enough to ever know the answers
Thanks asshole
our*
>the idea that Jesus died to pay for humanity's cosmic debt to God
The problem is how that 'debt' was incurred, and how it was 'payed'.
The debt was God knowingly setting the tree of knowledge in the reach of creatures he had 100% certainty would eat of it and then condemning them for disobedience before they had knowledge of good and evil or even what it means to disobey.
(I don't know how many anons have a dog, but it doesn't take omniscience to know those fuckers will eat chocolate if you leave it lying around and you wouldn't just let them die as a just punishment for not understanding when you tell them beforehand in English that it will make them sick). To me, the story is just a metaphor for listening to one's elders or authority but its theological implications are morally bankrupt.
The dept was also paid poorly. God, while not being presented with our modern understanding of Omnipotence, was constantly praised in the bible for having incredible and often even impossible power and compassion. Surely he could just forgive without the macabre need for bloodshed. And why would he wait so long to forgive? It would also seem odd that he would be interested in a human sacrifice since it was so frequently mentioned previously how much he detested other cultures which sacrificed humans. The sacrifice of Jesus makes an incredible amount of metaphorical sense, as it was a common practice at the time to use scapegoats(when a community would put their sins onto a goat and either kill it or drive it out of the town to absolve the people of their evils) and how Jesus is literally described as the lamb of God but again it seems obviously immoral to kill one man for the many crimes of others and Jesus himself didn't consent to or understand the crucifixion while pleading to God and asking why he was forsaken.
(Again, do you need to cut yourself to forgive your dog for not paying attention to you? And would that even solve the problem?)
How the fuck did I not come across this book before, I'm entranced. Definitely will story time this thing, thank you
>Surely he could just forgive without the macabre need for bloodshed
Because God is just, your are minimizing the seriousness of sin if you think God can just wave it away.
>And why would he wait so long to forgive?
God is outside of time and works at his own pace.
>Jesus himself didn't consent to or understand the crucifixion
Have you not read about the garden of Gethsemane? He knew exactly what he was getting into.
Isn't this based on several of the stories left out of the Canon?
>if you think God can just wave it away
Either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you are underestimating how kind or powerful God is presented as.
>God is outside of time and works at his own pace.
God has a well enough handle on human timescales to have a ton of reasonably paced conversations with normal humans, and even update specific prophets throughout their lives.
>Have you not read about the garden of Gethsemane? He knew exactly what he was getting into.
The Gospels were clear that he did not want the 'cup to pass him by' but accepted that it must be taken because God willed it. He may have known what he was in for, but like I said: he neither wanted it nor understood. I think it's telling that you only wrote "the garden of Gethsemane" but left out that it's most often referred to as "Agony in the Garden of Gethsemane".
made a typo, he wanted the 'cup to pass him by'
>your are minimizing the seriousness of sin if you think God can just wave it away.
Is he not all powerful then, if he can not do away with something he created?
Was Judas an incel?
>"You Say Run" starts playing
>you are underestimating how kind or powerful God is presented as.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sin. That is how God is presented as.
>God has a well enough handle on human timescales to have a ton of reasonably paced conversations with normal humans, and even update specific prophets throughout their lives.
Okay, whats your point?
>He may have known what he was in for,
> he neither wanted it nor understood
Pick one and only one. Also he could have chosen not to if he wanted to. He told Pilate that he could get a legion of angels to save him if he wanted to.
He’s more of a strict creator than a complete cunt, he gives people immortality in paradise
I agree, user. That's why I see the cross as the ultimate symbol of divine solidarity. Perhaps I worded it poorly earlier. When I said "Jesus isn't just squaring our debt to God", I meant something more like "Jesus isn't *merely*" squaring etc.
Why tell the human story this way, with all the tears and suffering and death? I don't know. But I trust that telling it this way is better than not telling it at all. That's why the mystery of the incarnation is key. Through the cross, God becomes more than just the author. He's no longer doing it TO us, he's doing it WITH us. Jesus willingly suffers the greatest injustice, and through divine literary flourish it becomes the turning point by which every wrong will be made right.
you sound like a pharisee
I'm listening to Gaughan.
Was Judas a soiboy?
*tips*
Story was just okay. The art is 10/10 though
Yeah, the Harrowing of Hell.
en.wikipedia.org
Coincidentally, Evan Dahm, the Rice Boy guy, is illustrating a different graphic novel based on it.
I enjoyed it even if they took liberty ona frw things like free will. The biggest flaw though, BIGGEST, is saying that Jesus sinned against Judas.
Jesus by definition was sinless and is the reason he was resurrected. Death is the penalthy for sin. Since he never sin, he was incapable of death which is why he resurrected and was a fitting sacrifice for God. Jesus sinning destroys the entire story.
>God only forgives when blood is spilled
>what's your point
>knowing what will happen is the same as wanting it and understanding its motivation
It's pretty clear at this point you are being disingenuous
And I think that a fallible God like portrayed in the comic is a totally valid read of the Bible, he often changes his mind and struggles to understand people's motivations, which makes the transformation into Jesus so meaningful because it was the first real attempt at empathy which almost immediately preceded absolution. My problems are more to do with how a God like that should really only be worshiped out of fear because his moral compass is so similar to the archaic moral precepts of ancient Hebrews.
I think the Bible is thoroughly interesting and that its story has a real literary and even spiritual strength to it (if you can get past the awkward bits that don't really synergize like how Jesus thought washing your hands before eating was unnecessary because things that enter your body can't defile you). I just don't think that there's real merit to a literal interpretation of the bible representing the real world, and that the consequences of thinking the bible is literally true tends to make people treat subjects involving women, gays, science, sex, and other religions more dogmatically than they would have otherwise.
Now you sound like a Roman
>It's pretty clear at this point you are being disingenuous
I'm not being disingenuous. I literally quoted what God is portrayed as. I think your just too dense to answer me back.
>knowing what will happen is the same as wanting it and understanding its motivation
Are your retarded or are you just arguing in bad faith?
Jeff Loveness wrote a great Nova run too.
Good Friday anime when?
>Jesus by definition was sinless and is the reason he was resurrected.
Did you not read the story? Jesus became sinless when forgiven by judas. Those things are intact.
Yeah, once you stop looking at the Bible as a single book magically beamed directly into some dude's head by God, it makes a lot more sense. It's an anthology written by kings and peasants and warriors and poets who struggled to put into words their recurring encounters with the divine over the course of thousands of years. It's beautiful and ugly and painfully human, and I don't think that diminishes it one bit.
Because it's not good. It's just gore without any content. Everybody is an asshole who curses in modern tongue. The complete opposite of Judas.
thanks op, i really enjoyed this.
you're most welcome, tune in tomorrow when I put in this
Yeah just finished it, and I thought it was going somewhere but in paints a lot of people in a bloody light
seeing Noah as a lumberjack slaver who cracked the mystery of iron was a bit much compared to the initial stories, and did he die or what b/c it would be a bit weird if he did
He was without sin from start to finish
My Last Day
Anime centering on the last two days of Jesus Christ and the repentant thief who were crucified on Golgotha.
youtube.com
Have you read Crumb's genesis?
But doesn't taking on the sins of man by definition make him not sinless?
will do
This was G D amazing. Thanks user!
We used to own some hardback covered comics that were really really detailed and graphic, detailing stories from the bible. They were bound in a fake-gold looking binder, and they were really good.
I can't recall the name for the life of me though.
heh saw the loophole in a 2000 year old religion
youre welcome
if anyone's confused how Kant's use of the term 'freedom' is meant to be freedom, this is it.
I mean according to the harrowing of hell, Jesus actually takes most of the people of hell (or, int he Catholic tradition: just of the death-world) with him to paradise.
what constitutes the members of hell he takes?
Is it all the people who will go to hell in all history or just all the people up to that point
i kant believe it
Fuckin lol
That's pretty good.
He took them on as suffering, not as blame. The pain of his crucifixion was indescribably more than what any other man would have suffered, because in that time he took on all human wrongdoing alongside the physical trial.
Basically, the scenario that this comic says took place in Hell actually happened on Earth.
So I'm just going to stick to the Catholic perception: He takes all who are just there due to original sin and all that take on the offer to repent (which some Catholics would say is everybody once you know God and many wouldn't) up until that point.
From then on, he kinda acts like a 'bridge', meaning you can follow the law God puts into your heart even if you are never confronted with the bible and still get into Heaven. This is of course a lot more difficult than when you get help from the Church and through the sacraments.
There are some Church teacher who say that hell is most likely empty because once confronted with God after death or at final judgement everybody will choose to repent honestly.
this ring familiar?
Heroes of the Faith UBS Bible Comics Series For Children
>implying at one point it wasn't
Cool comic.
Reminds me of the story "Three Versions of Judas", by Borges.
southerncrossreview.org
this
Look at the file KB guys
>666
That has to be on purpose
lel
agreed id reccommend this comic to anyone regardless of faith
bump for good friday.
Thank you so much, user!
I think it's great to explore ideas like this comic does. So much religious writing is ambiguous or open to interpretation, and as others have pointed out there's a lot which is just ignored because it doesn't fit in with specific churches' ideas.
loved it!
I know is crazy but, i love how suttle this 3 scenes are. When Jesus say "Come. Follow me." he rise his right hand, and judas even say that he feels a life purpose. Later, Lucifer says the exact same words, but his left hand rises, Judas feels safe. And when Judas say it again, his right hand rises, fullfiling the part of Jesus, given him hope, life purpose.
Bruh this reeks of gnosticism, atheist fedora tipping and misunderstanding of the Bible. But an interesting concept.
>misunderstanding of the Bible
Everybody interprets the Bible differently, the way it's written pretty much invites it and anybody who claims to know the absolute truth of it is still just a fallible human. Hell, what do you make of apocrypha? Who decides what's true and what isn't? There's nothing wrong with applying Christian ideals to an original story, it's not like the author of this book claims it to be real.
>Buying what Satan says
He's a liar. And whatever "truth" he says he mixes in untruths and opinions to muddle and deceive.
Nice catch
Glad you did!
Don't worry about it!
>gnosticism, atheist fedora tipping and misunderstanding of the bible
It's not a fucking bible story you dunce, it's a story inspired by the bible.
This page is metal as fuck.
>Jesus’ dialogue is red text.
Nice touch.
That's a reference to Red Letter Edition bibles right?
Huh, I didn't know about that. There's probably more references in here, I did recognise all the stuff around Jezebel as real Sumerian/Babylonian artefacts, and although that's not strictly accurate (Jezebel was supposedly Phoenician and the "false gods" she worshipped were Canaanite rather than Mesopotamian) it's still kinda cool to see.
somebody should storytime those
>33
>not sacrificing yourself unto yourself
this gave me a good chuckle
loveness groot and nova are fantastic I will give this a read
i like where this is going, i'm hooked so i believe a thank you is in order. Thanks OP, here is my bump!
Almost, but not quite banner worthy.
Thanks user
Second time in this thread because I had to reread this. Only now did I notice that his noose turns to the 30 pieces given to him. Brilliant.
>>mythology
wow those seashells rely when far
KINO
I’m gonna get this in a trade one day. I need to own a physical copy.
Edit it to say “this is Yea Forums”.
i'd check out jesus christ: superstar if you like the sympathetic portrayal of Judas.
>The Goddamned
I read it, but wasn't too happy with it. While the premise of the story is great, Noah is just another barbaric warlord, which goes against the entire theme of the Flood story.
I mean yeah there freedom is still just hell
>tfw absolute heresy
I admire this book's art, but I can't help but dislike it.
daaa is it kys time
Admit it, it makes the story work better.
Same. I want to like it but it’s hard.
Don't think of it as canon. It's not. It's a story using Christian imagery and mythos.
I should have said, "shonen anime," sorry.
exactly
There's also "Three versions of Judas" by. Jorge Luis Borges
en.m.wikipedia.org
>Surely he could just forgive without the macabre need for bloodshed.
My small understanding is that the problem is with fallen man not with God. Man as we know us is corrupt and ruined and the process of making man anew is through accepting Jesus, apparantly any other conceivable method does not clear away the fallen state of man. Coercion does not make man anew.
When you ask "Why doesn't God just forgive" the answer is yes, he does forgive, and the process you see is what it looks like.
In fact a lot of the questions of God's actions are answered in the same way. What happened is what is looks like when he does X.
Aww yeah!
>It’s definitely not a pro-Christianity comic
I would argue that it is in a way. While it does address some of the faults, it stands behind the core concepts and tenets of Christianity. Honestly, I think that having the fedora tipping dialogue coming from Satan, the great deceiver, is very much intentional.
yeah, its directly opposed to/by christian orthodoxy/canon but still
faithful, much like its protagonist. Honestly I'd say that's the mark of good work.
not just saying
>HERESY
and being done with it
calling it cosmology doesn't help, it makes it much worse
Can you christfags catch me up on exactly what's wrong with the theology?
In this comic? It implies that Jesus sinned by leading Judas down the path he was to take and not telling him about it. Most Christians believe that Jesus was 100% free of sin.
>Most Christians believe that Jesus was 100% free of sin.
Those christians did not really read the bible then, which pointed out Jesus was also still a human being and one of the reasons he was so merciful in the first place was because he was human himself.
None of the things you just said require Jesus to have sinned.
Wrath is a mortal sin. And Jesus was certainly wrathful when he attacked the temple merchants.
To be human is to have sinned
Appropriate anger is not "wrath". Wrath is when you are disproportionately angry, or let your anger dictate your rational actions. A temple profaned by merchants is an act of evil, and to not get angry at it would be the sin of sloth, for lack of anger when one should be angry is sinfulness. Righteous anger is very real and very useful.
>When you ask "Why doesn't God just forgive" the answer is yes, he does forgive, and the process you see is what it looks like.
>When you ask "Why doesn't God just forgive"
You left out the "without the macabre need for bloodshed"
> the answer is yes, he does forgive
So now you can argue against a strawman version of statement.
This way you can miss the point entirely, it's asking about the WAY God forgave, and how it was unnecessarily cruel and untimely. There was never a contention that God still maintains a grudge.
Jesus never went to hell during the three days. However, he did Hades to collect the souls of all those who died before they were to know Him.
Same concept as in this comic, minus the faltering of his belief in his father, but Hades and Hell are not the same place. Sadly although the Gospel of Judas is cool it isn't part of the main cannon of the bible and was written by a whole other sect and at much later date. On top of that post resurrection Christ makes reference to Judas a few times and doesn't say very nice things. Two I recall were something like "The would would have been better if he was never born" and "He's in Hell, no if ands or butts." Bear with me though the bibles epic is filled with plot holes especially around Judas many of the topics are brought up in this comic. The cornerstone of Christianity is built upon Christ dying for the sins of man. Can't have that without Judas.
allaboutjesuschrist.org
Other fun non cannon stuff to learn about is the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus is child that a cosmically power Dennis the Menace. Jesus makes a lot of people impotent. Rember Jesus is both man and Godhead. If you were a kid with the power cosmic you wouldn't take shit from anyone either. Only later does he learn his place and undoes all his wacky shenanigans. Being Joseph must have been a bitch.
Another good one is the book of Enoch in general, what is really fun is finding out all the little details in it that even post removal from the main story are still referenced later on, like Adams first wife Lilith.
Oh an one last good one that EVERY priest in letters was like "We are not fucking adding that!" was a story about Jesus and his brother James, from Josephs first wife, and James is like "Bro going to hell forever is a bit much." Christ is like "Ok I'll tell you a secret but you can't tell anyone because it hurts everything I am trying to teach, you eventually get out."
Spoken like a true sinner. Sin is a sin, you cannot candy-coat it. The whole theme of Jesus is forgiveness, that humanity's fate is to sin and the fate of Jesus and his Father is to forgive.
>but Hades and Hell are not the same place.
They are the same place, Hell is just the later iteration of Sheol. Hell/Sheol was not a place of pain but a place of sorrow and ultimate death, where the dead slowly ceased to exist as their relatives forgot about them.
The original selling point of christianity was not paradise or avoiding hell, but eternal life. People were afraid of dying and the meaningless existence that comes with it. All religions by that point were providing answer for the same question: "What happens after you die?", because the prospect of you simply disappearing for good was too grim. The main reason christianity really blew up was because it was originally a religion which promised salvation for everyone, even beggars and women. Whereas with its competitors like judaism or the plethora of roman religions, they only promised salvation and afterlife for the select few, usually the rich and the elite.
Allow protties to prot. It's their way.
>are you just arguing in bad faith
You're arguing with someone with no faith. To us, your fantasy magic is just fantasy.
Fuckin' based dude. Might just have to buy this.
All of the issues that you apparently have with it can be explained by either a more careful reading or by reading commentaries by the fathers of the Church.
> God allows evil to exist because He knew ahead of time
God didn't want a creation full of mindless automatons. The fact that He knows what people will choose doesn't mean that they aren't free choices.
> they go to hell just for calling God a different name
look up what the Cannanite "gods" were like and what they demanded. Moloch and Ishtar are not exactly Jesus expys.
The actual positions of the ancient Church are much more interesting than anything that a pretentious comic book writer can come up with. The art is beautiful and it's a nice concept but there are too many deviations from basic concepts (such as the omniscience of Jesus) to make it actually compelling. You guys are impressed by anything remotely approaching a theme because all you do is read embarrassing garbage written for children, retards and manchildren by people who generally hate their own audiences. Get off of Yea Forums and engage with the rich history and traditions of the wider world.
who made the world in a way were free will in the relevant sense and absolute goodness by every person dont necessarily coexist?
beautiful page btw
> in the relevant sense
This is begging the question. We don't know anything about the composition of the soul, angels, or the interdependent relation of either of these to the rest of creation. For all we know it might have been some necessary aspect of creating space or mathematics or any number of things that set up Satan for the fall, and subsequently the fall of man. The idea that this isn't the optimal creation is one that comes from the limitations of human thought, not from a fault in God.
>Satan is the Prime Fedora
I shouldn't be surprised. At some point he should have said, "We live in a cosmology..."
sinners RISE UP
[muffled rick and morty theme]
Reminder that the Quran is more Kino than the Bible.
So if this was the case, who would have made it such that this is a logical necessity? How can suffering be explained with an omnipotent being without a basic, unmotivated Want for suffering by that omnipotent being? Unless God is unable to decide on the logical structure of the Universe, nothing in it can be explained by referencw to anything else. If aomething is not uötimately, by itself and for itself, that which God wants to be, he could, without effort, have the world so that it isnt with everything else being.
The idea that this isnt the optimal creation comes from the idea that God has made it such that the idea would come up - and that there is nothing to justify it, for he is not beholden to any due course or logical consistancy he did not himself previously, and wantonly, establish
excuse me sir allow me to tip my fedora real quick the crucifixion is beyond tame compared to alot of things. it is flashy no doubt and it makes for a great climax but being flayed to death or any other mutilation death causes way more pain being nailed to a cross and whipped is pretty tame compared to alot of ways to die. *advanced tip mode activate* its hilarious how tame all the pain jesus went through especially compared to modern day torture or even death by disease jesus was a pussy and his sacrifice was worth less then even his disciples souls in my opinion
When did rational thought become something to be frowned upon?
when it interferes with any religion ever.
you can not being 100% rational and follow any religion (unless you count atheism and satanism as a religion) all religion rely on belief without facts using "faith" as a substitute. good or bad it is what it is
Because Satan is obviously lying
When God says you're the villain because He says so but then punishes you for it, that's fucked up.
Satan isn't exactly rational here though. He lets his grudge get in the way of him trying to do something constructive about his Creator being a tyrant and a dick.
If you assume god could change logic, everything falls apart because we depend on logic to reason. From a human standpoint 'true' omnipotence is self contradictory.
Unless you're willing to believe that there is something beyond human logic, logic wasn't created by god, but just a part of god's nature. Therefore god's omnipotence is also 'restricted' in the sense that god cannot go against the nature of god.
In that sense, something like asking for free will without the capacity for evil is like asking for a rectangle with only one side.
complete rationality is impossible you mong.
also, lol @ calling satanists, who believe in actual fucking magic, rational.
You mean when God gives you free will, because its more fulfilling to share existence with thinking and feeling beings than I-Love-You-Bots, and you respond to that by deciding you could totally do a better job and mislead your brothers, and rather than just obliterating your existence outright He decides simply casts you down until you really push it too far in the final battle. I half wonder if there was oppertunity for him to humble himself before God and where the 'last straw' was.
If god could make Mary born without sin (see immaculate conception of Mary) why couldn't he do the same to everyone else
I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance. Aside from being scourged and beaten to terribly he was almosy unrecognisable, and dying on a still horrific torture device, it was taking THE ENTIRE WRATH OF GOD AGAINST EVERY SIN THAT HAS EVER OR WILL EVER OCCUR onto Himself. The cross itself was 'just' the physical aspect.
There's a difference between atheism and antitheism. Satan knows God exists and hates him, which is not the same as not believing God exists and therefore disdaining religion. And the former is totally in character for Satan.
Also if she was already born without sin does she even have freewill to say no to god?
So according to your above statements: that we don't know anything about the nature of the soul, spirits, angels, the secret ways of the devil...
It is completely possible that all those unknowables are structrued such that God's omnipotence is restricted such that he cannot keep his promise. Everything points to the workings behind God being completely unknown to us - as you have said yourself - which means it's equally possible that none of what the bible says is true, but that it just happens to be the best thing for God to say according to the hidden rules of transcendental logic. And considering it's full of contradictions and is being followed less and less, that might be part of that plan. If we take this logic, that we just don't know anything about how shit works, only that God is bound to how shit is supposed to work, we have no reason - not even faith - to believe in his word. We have no reason to believe that following his word is according to his plan more than not following it. I can act completely out of belief in God.
Also, asking for a rectangle with only one side is like asking for one substance with three ontologically distinct persons.
He's a dick
Who says God didn't divinely inspire this comic to tell the real story of what went down, user?
>unironic christfags on my imageboard
i wish i could go back to the better times
>Yea Forums - Comics and Theology
Fedoras go and stay go
Eh, it's interesting to get their perspectives on this stuff, even if they are risking their souls by being here.
We've always been here user.
>chrsitfags being any worse than reddit, Yea Forums, /pol/, or tumblr
They're the least of this board's problems.