Why don't Western comics have good fight scenes like Manga does?
Why don't Western comics have good fight scenes like Manga does?
Jaxson Williams
Other urls found in this thread:
forums.eu.square-enix.com
twitter.com
Carson Hill
That's poorly staged and cropped. You can barely tell what's going on.
Ryder Ortiz
>You can barely tell what's going on.
Only if you're a literal retard.
Luke Wright
Serialized American comics have fewer pages to work with than serialized manga so the storytelling is more compressed. You can devote 10 pages to a fight sequence when you're churning out 19 pages a week but if you did that in a monthly 22 page comic that cost 4 bucks, readers are going to feel ripped off.
Carter Gonzalez
This has to be bait. No one could possibly pick that as a good example of Japanese fight scenes.
Justin Rogers
One's clearly trying to apply a leg lock, and the other's clearly trying to prevent it.
I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing the Comic's Code had a hand in making them that way. Can't show real fights, so you just show big flashy implied attacks. Also, shonen mangas popularized tournament arcs where detailed depictions of one-on-one fights were expected. Naturally this style bleeds over into more traditional action settings.
John Ross
So much about this is setting off my autism.
You have an incredibly shitty low single and your solution is to move into a half assed, I want to say Achilles lock but that isn't just not right in the sense that it's technically inaccurate but it's straight up isn't.
Ever since John Wick came out, people have been trying to do "gritty" grappling and it's always fucking shitty. I don't want ultra realism but that sequence is flat out just dumb looking.
Aiden Reyes
Man don't shit up Asuka by shitposting on Yea Forums. I can tell your bitch ass literally just came from the dump thread on Yea Forums to shitmouth
Landon Bailey
Because Damion Scott doesn't get to do near enough
Nicholas Diaz
Threads like this have no winners.
Sage and prune
Joshua Edwards
So, before this thread get's pruned I genuinely want to ask what people like about these kinds of fight scenes.
I understand that care is being taken to draw a shitload of panels, showing in detail the sequence of the fight, but actually going to the thread on Yea Forums where this is being storytimed, the entire manga sequence is kind of a fucking mess of word bubbles, characters taking every cliche in the book about manga fight scenes, and this is just a personal issue, genuinely just kind of shit knowledge about the subject matter. The bit about the origin of combat sambo was stupid enough but the grappling that the manga is taking so much time to show, is not only kind of boring looking but also wrong.
Outside of animated media, I've always personally found manga fight scenes to be weak in everything other than how pretty the individual panels look. Dragon Ball and Vagabond are one thing but a lot fo the examples posted to show why manga fight scenes are so great tend to not absorb me narrative wise or even just how the action is laid out on the page.
Aiden Cruz
OP is thinking with his dick, not his brain.
comic really, really has to justify the lengthy fight to make it worth while. that number of issues just to deal with stilt-man will feel like a rip-off.
Jeremiah Robinson
Hurr speed lines bad duurrp
You're right, but don't announce sage senpai it's bad form
Evan Rogers
Also, fully acknowledging this is bait, why do the people defending western comics seem to think that good fight scenes are just moment to moment play by play action scenes?
I mean sure, you will rarely find a fight scene in western comics where every punch and kick is drawn lovingly in sequence, but outside of cape comics you tend to get fight scenes that are written excellently. Southern Bastards circled the shitter but the fight between Coach and Tubbs at the end of the first arc was amazing. Same with scenes from Criminal, Scalped, Punisher MAX.
A good fight scene isn't just shit like in the OP.
Jack Brooks
It is mostly muricans comics, I can only think one example of a good action scene american comics in the last times of a underrated artist.
even euros that does have even less pages to do action, manage to do it in a competent way. Muricans comics are all poses and such.
Luis Stewart
Colton Hall
Why aren't more Western comics like this? Clearly, it can be done and this is proof.
forums.eu.square-enix.com
Josiah James
>thinking cape comics which come out monthly at best and in full color can have the page count to waste on fight scenes
You read cape comics for the plot and dialogue.
William Scott
You're reading it backwards. It's right to left.
Thomas Rogers
>thinking it is about monthly pages, full color that is the problem.
No it isn't, the problem are shit artists, here, we have an example, a single page in a 5 issue minisseries (the usual arc size) by a competent artist, looks how many panels he made to show the action instead of just some poses.
it takes time and effort, something that these artists involved are clearly not ready to compromise.
Adam Bailey
just do smaller panels you lazy fucks
Wyatt Kelly
like this?
Joshua Stewart
>, looks how many panels he made to show the action instead of just some poses.
That doesn't make it a good fight scene.
Josiah Butler
almost but no, yesterday I was reading some comic from the 70's that had little panels that did not connect, the action did not connect to the next panel like this page does, every action in this page connect to one or another in some point, and the part that sometimes isn't shown, could make entirely new scenes to show.
Xavier Taylor
what 70's comic?
Jason Richardson
this one.
gonna sleep right now.
Dominic Gray
No, I think we just need more panels.
Isaiah Barnes
thats not a low single anymore shes picked it up and is running the pipe either to a single leg trip, to dump her over, or a high crotch. perfectly fine
also not an achilles lock its a knee bar.
tricky to get from a single leg but you could theoretically setup a kneebar or a heel hook off of it. might even be easier that a flying arm bar which isnt super crazy
Jace Mitchell
>thats not a low single anymore shes picked it up and is running the pipe either to a single leg trip, to dump her over, or a high crotch. perfectly fine
We literally saw what she was doing and it wasn't her running the pipe to any of those maneuvers. She literally reached down plucked the leg and fell back into a half assed leg lock position. That is why it is being called a shitty low single, because it is literally grabbing the lower part of the leg, in the most basic google search version of the single leg.
>its a knee bar.
Do you know what a kneebar is?
Luke Murphy
>A knee bar.
Your use of running the pipe is also incorrect, hint running the pipe is used as a shorthand metaphor for a specific action that is done while manipulating the leg, but no she wasn't going for a knee bar.
I might be cheating because I saw the pages before and after this one, but she wasn't trying to roll the leg or get the fulcrum. She didn't try to do much of anything really. I'm actually genuinely baffled as to what the fuck the goal of the entire sequence was, because it was an Achilles lock or perhaps an ankle lock Actually look at the position. But she didn't do it, and the defense the victim used, was kind of stupid looking.
It looked like a worse version of the shit the shit that used to happen in Pancrase. Down to the fall back for the leglock stupidity and bad position awareness. I kind of doubt the artist actually wrestles or grapples or watches wrestling or grappling past the 2005 era.
Benjamin Watson
the low single takedown isnt finished by lifting the leg, and in this case the low single is just the entry. once she lifts the leg, it becomes part of a chain where you either run the pipe, dump, or trip. entirely different takedowns than a low single.
and i do know what a what a kneebar is, the angle isnt right, but the grip on the leg isnt for a heelhook, toe hold etc, but fine for a kneebar bc in the last panel theyre flipping over and it looks like shes turning.
Jackson Johnson
Actually going to look at the pages from the Yea Forums thread. Holy shit I hate this artist. The entire grappling sequence is a fucking mess.
Convoluted would be my best attempt at a critque. Not in that it's too complicated for a layman to comprehend, but that it is jumbled and messy, when it could have easily been streamlined to look better.
I don't want to read this, but again I don't think the author grapples.
Liam Roberts
im going just off of the images and the options for each situation. you lift the leg on a single and you're usually doing one of those 3 things and it looked like she was rolling in the last image. im just saying that the idea of it isnt wrong in this page bc you could realistically pull this off if you're good enough and decide to do it this way. it isnt one of those images where only wrong thngs are happening
Jordan Phillips
>the low single takedown isnt finished by lifting the leg, and in this case the low single is just the entry. once she lifts the leg, it becomes part of a chain where you either run the pipe, dump, or trip. entirely different takedowns than a low single.
Wow. What does any of that have to do with anything that was said in the previous post. She didn't do any of that shit. She didn't try to run the pipe or dump. She picked up the leg with a shitty low single and fucking fell back for a leg lock. You are actually over complicating this and making yourself wrong.
>and i do know what a what a kneebar is
Do you really? Because I genuinely doubt that if you are trying to justify that it is a knee bar based solely on the fact that the legs are closed. Which mate you do understand that it is not an uncommon finish to not close the legs right? Achilles and the straight ankle lock were mentioned, because the fulcrum is the ankle not the knee. Basically what was being halfassed in the images.
Robert Campbell
Jackson Cox
Poor paneling
More panels need to start from the beginning of where the reader starts
Since this a manga, which should be read from right to left, the final shot, which is the girl putting the other in a leg lock, should climax on the left of the page
Dylan Parker
Angel Davis
Christopher Gutierrez
the first part i was just arguing that she didnt go in for a shitty single but that lifitng the leg is actually something that is worthwhile to do tactically w stuff coming off it.
second part im wrong about bc i thought the last image was something else. it looks like theyre just holding each other now that i look again. i was going for a knee bar bc the foot is so high up i dont know how the ankle is the leverage point. i was thinking it was a way to sneakily focus on the knee and switch it up in some way.
but my main thing is that the whole image isnt a clown show. up until they hit the ground and you see where things end up it does make sense
Jaxon Cruz
Ethan Smith
>it isnt one of those images where only wrong thngs are happening
But it all looks janky and not that well choreographed. Which was the point. You're trying to bring in conversation about wrestling, which you don't seem to know all that much about and wasn't the issue, and incorrectly identified a leg lock that anyone who watched grappling in the last couple of years would be able to call what it is.
Yes you could hit a low single, fall back for an ankle lock, because even in the one page we are shown it is not remotely a knee bar, but it looks bad. It looks like shit and the sequence is stupid looking. That is the point. I don't know how you missed that point.
James James
Jonathan Rogers
Western comics rarely show the impact and instead choose to focus on the aftermath of the impact.
Joshua Bailey
Chase Green
Can you post examples
Of course OPs fight is atrocious because the main focus is to see some T&A so grappling is the main option the artist wanted to use
Pic related is something that mangaka use to make their fight a 0 to 10, of course you can make your own judgement because cross countering/clashing appeals to those with a certain taste
The pages before also look neat but I can see why people wouldn't like it
Josiah Jones
Camden Evans
I just wanted to share a short fight admist the shitposting.
Aaron Turner
I have to get up in the morning but have you ever wrestled a day in your life or are you just googling shit late in the night to try to defend this manga?
She went for a shitty single leg. That is the definition of a shitty single leg. I do not understand why you are trying to argue about how tactically viable it is. She went for a shitty single leg and fucking fell back for a leg lock. It's a shittier version of the Shamrock sequence.
Angel Morris
that looks like shit wtf is ment to happning a leg hold?
Elijah Long
>Can you post examples
I need to get ahold of a digital version of Southern Bastards issue 3.
Leo Carter
im just saying the whole thing isnt stupid. the wrestling part was fine but the submission wasnt anything. i called it a kneebar bc it didnt make sense and i thought the last image was her turning it into something else. im wrong about that 100%, but im just trying to pick the worthwhile parts bc some of that is useful. you can get someone to the ground like that if you want and it wasnt a bad single leg, lifting the leg is just a choice
Adam Cruz
Robert Roberts
Hunter Watson
Awesome.
Carter Ross
Nolan Foster
Jacob Reyes
>and it wasnt a bad single leg
That is what this is all about? Because someone called your waifu's single leg shit?
Nicholas Murphy
Jose Flores
>It didn't make sense
How can you mention heel hooks but not recognize the most basic ankle lock position? Gun to my head I probably wouldn't be able to pull one off technically, but just from watching old Pancrase matches and even UFC you can tell how it works. Overhook on the ankle with control of the leg.
Your entire argument with me seems to be entirely about you thinking I don't understand how a single leg works.
Cooper Kelly
going for a leg lock off it is low percentage but im just saying that lifting the leg could be a tactical choice instead of a mistake. falling back for a leg lock is dumb but idk the context. if its against someone who doesnt grapple or if you have that kind of belief in your leg lock it could be what you want.
its shit in general but not neccesarily is all im saying. im not saying it was great, its just workable delendimg on what the plan was
Jaxson Flores
You are autistically arguing that your waifu does know how to grapple.
Brayden Rivera
i recognize the position but i dont think you can ankle lock someone w the ankle that far up. correct me if im wrong but thats why i thought it was focused on the knee bc it seemed like the tension was on that. i thought ankle locks torqued the ankle or do they hold the ankle and torque the knee? idk and thats where im saying i was confused about and decided its either shit or something else.
as for the wrestling. i know you know what a single leg is im just making a distinction between the entry and the finish. writer could just be thinking, "single leg entry, lifts the leg to offbalance and threaten trips etc, fall back into unexpected leglock for a quick finish"
Jonathan Bennett
The sequence was stupid. You genuinely don't seem to know shit all about wrestling and are now just defending a fictional characters move choices as realistically possible, when the entirety of the complaint was about how bad the choreography was not the realism of the sequence.
I'm the bigger idiot for staying up this late because of this and this honestly might just be fucking bait.
Chase James
Are you autistic? I must be for sticking around for all of this.
Jackson Rivera
she knows how to grapple just a little bit. but what im really arguing is that the writer/artist could possibly know something. i dont know enough myself, clearly bamboozled myself w the leglock by overestimating the last image but the wrestling part makes sense
Jonathan Mitchell
Western arts are extremely rigid, it prioritizes "dramatic posing" over "movement fluid"
Colton Wood
>Capeshit
>Plot
>In the same sentence
Get a load of dis nigga
Daniel Johnson
>she knows how to grapple just a little bit. but what im really arguing is that the writer/artist could possibly know something.
No.
Grayson Sanders
the choreography isnt that bad bc its a realistic sequence. thats the connection im trying to make. unless choreography means something different to yall and im wrong on that
John Nelson
> but the wrestling part makes sense
This is bait.
Christopher Cook
>the choreography isnt that bad bc its a realistic sequence.
Michael Brown
lol the way people are reacting to me rn is definitely making me feel fucked up but it is what it is. you do what you do you get what you get
Matthew Peterson
>the choreography isnt that bad bc its a realistic sequence.
Fuck it I'm going to sleep. This is trolling.
Elijah Murphy
Focus is different. Since the 70s people wanted more story and less dumb action, and in some ways they got it, in others they didn't, but overall the shift has been always more narrative driven. Even ultra stupid radical extreme action from the 90s had like 2 punches, a spread, and the rest is talking about edgy convoluted crap.
Manga does this too, but since each chapter must be a digestible 20 page treat and there's a ton of different series in the same magazine, it's either talking chapter or action chapter with rarely anything in between.
If you ever wanna ask about differences between western and Japanese media, don't. Both sides are screaming children as you can see.
Camden Phillips
what part of it doesnt make sense? if this is no holds barred why would getting someone down like that not make sense? once their legs are locked thats no longer wrestling but lifting someones leg on a single isnt ridiculous and its part of a chain if you want to go that route. if i dont know please tell me where im wrong i sincerely want to know
Elijah Roberts
That's good?
Easton Flores
Because manga uses 20 times more panels on a fight than comics do
Andrew Sanders
Fuck I forgot how metal Midnighter is. I miss that faggot. Any news on whens the next time he makes an appearance?
Levi Hill
POST EXEMPLE YOU STUPID FUCKIN WEEB
Hunter Collins
Because artists can't sell pages like that.
Jaxson Morris
That was pretty good, thanks for sharing
Oliver Long
It figures that Toriyama was pretty good at this since you know, he was a fucking massive movie nerd
Nathaniel Brooks
Because it takes effort. The Badger (of all things) is one of the few western comics to ever have quality fight scenes, and the writer of that has admitted that he did actual RESEARCH for that shit. Like he read multiple books on martial arts just to be able to plan the scenes out. That shit takes WORK. And people in western comics only get into the industry because they have no talent and don't want to do any actual fucking work either.
Elijah Cruz
Nathaniel Green
Western comics sometimes have quality action scenes as long as they don't try to do martial arts.
Liam Thomas
No comic can surpass this manga fight
Parker Richardson
Sebastian Jackson
How many dead?
Noah Wright
>should climax on the left of the page
That is retarded, the impact is bigger if you spend a spread page / large panel on the next page for that
Isaac Robinson
Because most comics want to tell a story, not spend 8-16 chapters detailing a single fight.
Also there are some great action comics out there, even a few that do it in a manga visual style.
Pic related is a comic called Blade Bunny.
Brody Thompson
>Spidey's gonna be workin' this one out for the rest of his lif--
yeah, about that...
although, all things considered, it's not a bad bit of history as to why Spidey and Wolvie are such great buds that Peter kicks Logan's ass every chance he gets and Wolvie usually just lets him.
Christian Nguyen
Chapter number so I can judge it for myself?
Liam Lewis
That looks terrible. Why would you recommend that? I have no clue what's going on, and everything is speed lines.
Tyler Lee
>That page
>Great
You have some outrageous shit taste right there, nigga
Jason Rodriguez
Liam Stewart
Brandon James
I never said it was good, I said a few comics were done in manga style.
Nathan Walker
Is this the manga equivalent of the thread with that shitty anime fight? It's obvious OP is reverse baiting and making Yea Forums look bad.
Good job OP.
Dylan Young
I think each style has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Jonathan Foster
>I'll just say they're moving too fast for the human eye that way I only have to draw a bunch of speed lines!