Should Captain Marvel be his own entity that switches places with Billy Batson...

Two individuals who swap

As long as they never pull a Donald Blake with Billy, either or sounds good.

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Captain Marvel as his own entity is too similar to Superman personality-wise

I know it was "two different people" changing places before but Billy in adult body is more interesting. I guess you could argue that it was a "adult" version of Billy so he was more mature version
Otherwise its just like Jimmy Olsen using his signal watch to get Superman to do all the hard stuff for him.

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It's how he worked in the Fawcett era, which is the gold standard for Captain Marvel comics

This shit was retarded even by Marvel standards.

Wait, if Captin Marvel is his own entitiy then what about Black Adam?
Is he his own entity? Was the real Adam just stuck there unable to do anything?

The same people, but with a sort of ideal 'angel on the shoulder' captain marvel nudging billy in the right direction.

what was it?
Donald was just Thor who forgot he was Thor or something

Convince me without relying on a fallacy.

Black Adam literally died in his first appearance

Then that just means Billy doesn't matter.

How?

This makes the most sense.
Captain Marvel is Billys best traits given form and amplified by the powers of the wizard.

Because in the end he's not the one truly deciding.

He's not a separate entity, and he never was. The confusion is that once upon a time Billy would transform and Solomon's wisdom and Achilles's courage would somewhat change his personality, turning him into the hero he was meant to be.

But fuck that shit. Billy is a far more interesting character when he's an inexperienced kid given the gifts of some of the mightiest magic beings to ever exist. I'll also argue that a good number of old school hardcore Captain Marvel/Shazam fans just want a messiah character.

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He should be Billy in an adult body, but he should still be psychologically mature while transformed because of the wisdom of Solomon.

Enchantress cut off his head and made said head a construct God, Thor then gives it to a bunch of dream demons after a fight and his head basically dreams of a normal life for all eternity.

How different even is Billy in his Captain Marvel form? I know he is more wiser and courageous but is there any other major differences, personality wise.

>Anybody who disagrees with me are nostalgia fags.
I bet you're one of those no trunks fags too.

Captain Marvel is just basically an adult version of Billy. (with super powers)
its not really a different person.

That's about it. The traits of Solomon and Achilles, like the other powers, are merely tools for the champion to use. So when transformed Billy has a better chance of reading a situation, determining right from wrong, and having the courage to face danger.
Not him but how is that comparable? Besides only superficial autists care one way or the other regarding the shorts issue with Clark.

Yes, we need another Martha joke.

It was until DC got the character.

you're gay if you disagree

Just Billy in an adult body, it's more fun that way imo.

Based DC

Isn't a sequel impossible since Billy's actor will be getting older and he'll lose the child innocence he has for the story.

Nah they’ll just Harry Potter that shit and use de aging CGI like Ant Man did

Billy should sacrifice himself before he reaches adulthood such that we never find out what he looks like as an adult

Don't believe this faggot lmao

Sorry user, but we already seen him aged up in Kingdom Come.

I'm a nostalgiafag but Billy transforming into an adult is more interesting.

An inexperienced kid with magical Superman powers is more interesting than some avatar swap with Billy playing mental paddleball in limbo for the duration of the scenario.

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I think it should be sorta like what they did with Franklin Richards becoming an adult.
He becomes an adult version of himself, meaning he sees things differently and acts differently, due to having proper motivations and the ability to reason.

Shazam should be Billy from the future as a learned wizard sent back in time at the same time as his past self is sent forward.

We should get a Shazam Beyond about him getting turned into Billy at inopportune times.

Billy in an adult body

Better idea, what if it was just adult Billy, but he had like...the Wisdom of Solomon or some shit?

Ahahaha

>mfw Stargirl was dating a slightly younger boy but people got weird about it

That's the best shit, even still.

Courtney is the best ship for Billy

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Yo you think she like...fucked transformed Billy just to feel that Herculean cock?

Teenagers got them hormones raging, man...

>Strength of Hercules
>Stamina of Atlas
>Courage of Achilles
>Has a Stacy girlfriend

Billy should have changed his superhero name to Chad Thundercock already.

It's true, he's got it all
What a man
We only wish we could be that Chadly, bros

This is how it went down
>Courtney, naturally, gets dreamy eyes over the god bod of Captain Marvel/Shazam
>Adventure happens where the two of them are away from the rest of the JSA, and Billy is cut off from his powers. Billy was about the same age as Courtney at the time (14)?
>Billy is forced to tell her his secret
>Courtney internally makes the realization "SCORE!"
>Kisses Billy because she digs him
>Fast forward to grandpa Jay Garrick naturally uncomfortable the way Shazam looks at Courtney
>Billy breaks up with her because he doesn't want to tell his secret to the JSA, and thus be treated differently

Yeah, it's pretty sad. They should've kept hooking up on the side so she wouldn't get all bummed out about it.

I prefer it when he can call on the wisdom of solomon, but has to focus.

You never read Kingdom Come, uh?

Well there is a small chance Johns will revive the pairing in current canon. Billy and Courtney were seen casually chatting in one of the Doomsday Clock panels, he favors the ship/both characters, and is friends with pic related artist

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He's still Captain Marvel at that point. New 52 is when they started calling him "Shazam".

I know that, I just mentioned both names for the sake of clarity

>Billy and Courtney were seen casually chatting in one of the Doomsday Clock panels
It was a nice nod

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THIS

>"Look, Mary, don't give me that look. We're flying to Mars with The Justice League to go stop a naked blue man from killing us all. I'm getting some damn digits while we're mingling! I saw the way one of the Green Lanterns was looking at you!"

That's retarded and already how Thor used to be over at Marvel originally before they figured out how stupid it was and got rid of Donald Blake entirely.

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So is Shazam what Billy would look like if he worked out everyday at the gym and studied magic?

See

He looked like his deceased dad.

>his own entity that switches places with Billy Batson
Let's avoid another Mr Miracle at all costs.

No, I am a pleb that only watches cape comics and cartoons.

So when he tranaforns he looks like his dad?

The Wizard directly states that when person transforms with the word they become the "ideal you", or basically what one would be at their best. The likeness to his father is purely a genetic coincidence. Which by the way, current book shows Billy's father is indeed alive

He's alive? Which book was he in?

*cape movies and cartoons

There's a current ongoing written by Johns that's not half bad. They're exploring The Seven Magic Realms, Mary is accepted into college, Black Adam is being hinted as the seventh member of the family, Mister Mind and Sivana are planning something, and when everyone gets home they're going to find out/deal with the fact that Billy's father has just shown back up and wants to be a part of his life.

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>already how Thor used to be over at Marvel
Let me guess: your favorite youtuber's latest video didn't mention that Captain Marvel was created 20 years before Thor.

I think since it's fucking magic, it would be cool if it were Adult Billy's consciousness somehow.

Sounds great!
Is Billy in the wildlands yet?

>Black Adam is being hinted as the seventh member of the family
>not the rabbit
I refuse to believe Black Adam would simply the Shazam family, Hoppy was even hinted at in the SEN back-up

Oh I forgot to mention Tawny is back too. So it could be him? Black Adam is fucking pissed right now because 6 children just unlocked The Seven Magic Realms when they were locked away for good reason. Can't say I blame the guy. The Wizard basically just handed over the keys to the house/cars to a kid(s) and didn't leave any sort of instruction manual on how to monitor and protect this important shit. They really need a talking mirror or something to educate these kids.

So if Billy was an old man he would still become Captain Marvel and be young again right?

own entity

What was this from?

Correct. You will always remain your peak self when using the magic. Black Adam reverted to dust because he hadn't transformed back into his mortal form for thousands of years.
Dumbass
JSA

I haven't read any of the new stuff. Is Mary his sister still, or is it like the movie, where that's nixed?

He should just be Billy but... more. Purer, braver, smarter, etc.

Boy you're really behind then if you're not aware of Curse of Shazam either, which the current book follows. Mary and the other kids are Billy's foster siblings. Mary is also like 17/18 now.

It's like one trade man, that's an hour of reading.

Anyway, yeah.

That sucks though. I don't mind ADDING the three new kids, but fucking around with the story is bullshit to me.

Fucking what up exactly?

Mary and Billy being siblings.

I still expect it to be revealed that Billy and Mary are actually related for real at some point

That's going to be difficult if they go with Billy's mom being pregnant with him at seventeen. Did she get pregnant with Mary age thirteen?

The Funlands seem so similar to something but I don't know what it is.
What story has a bunch of kids forcing other kids to work for them when they turn into adults?

Mad Max?
Lord of The Flies?
That Neverland Ranch Documentary?

At any rate the Funlands are fucked up. King Kid is a prick who steals children and condemns them to a living hell

If you make them two separate consciousnesses there is little to reason for Billy to exist at all. On top of that you lose fun interactions like 2:08
youtube.com/watch?v=M9oolBoJsUI

Post New 52 Captain Marvel is cancer and Multiculture Pals crap.
youtube.com/watch?v=sWJOXczogps

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If you *don't* make them two separate

Shut the fuck up, you not muh faggot. Those wizards are all dead anyway.

Obviously it's aged up Billy, else Billy's Shazam might as well be African or Eskimo.

Billy Batson as Captain Marvel has never seemed like he has the wisdom of Solomon, especially the New 52 version.

>It's another "user doesn't understand what The Wisdom of Solomon means" episode

More logically the first one, but the latter is far more entertaining.

Hmm where have a I seen diversity attempts like this before? You would think if it worked I would remember them being such great and iconic inclusions...

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>Shitting on The Super Friends
You might as well just put on a trip called "faggot" at this point. Are you the same paranoid asshole who screams SJW prematurely or incorrectly all the time here too?

It didn't work in the Superfriends because they were lazy stereotypes and had basically no characterization, not because they were non-white. The new Marvel family doesn't really have the same problem.

Whos is the Roman looking guy?

If Freddy and Mary were introduced today you would probably also complain about them.
>wtf a cripple and a girl? fuck sjws
Memes aside, while I don't hate the diversity crew like others, it does bother me how the comic seems to focus on all of them rather than just Billy, it makes him feel like just another side character, I'd prefer it if it was just Billy with one or two following him to keep things relatively simple.

El Dorado is Mexican Superman.
He even shows up in that new Wonder Twins book.

>Should Captain Marvel be his own entity that switches places with Billy Batson
If you want that, read Miracleman/Marvelman.

Or,y'know, Captain Marvel comics pre COIE.

Do it like Sailor Moon, the alter ego is a literal alternate ego that is slowly overriding Billy's.

Is that fucking Alpha Centurion there? I only remember seeing him in one Superman comic from ages ago, but he seemed like a neat XO ripoff.

Well they are also a bit stereotyped in the movie too. Fat dumb Mexican, computer savvy hacker Asian, overly goody goody black girl. Not sure if the last one is a very common trope but I have seen it a few times before.

Did they retcon an entire character to be replaced with a council of multiculturalism? Yes or no? Did they retcon an established family and story dynamic just to add three members to the Marvel Family to reach a diversity quota? Yes or no? Will any of these characters be remembered if you made them disappear right now other than as a vain attempt to be inclusive like the trinity from Super Friends? Yes or no?

Also pointing out the inclusion of three new characters for diversity sake by Hannah Barbara and how it's the exact same thing that happened in the New 52 means I don't like The Super Friends.

There is only ONE good Mexican Superman and he is the son of Zod.

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>Replaced
You're just being a paranoid moron. Oh and
>Wow Billy and Mary aren't blood related anymore but still stay true to their characters chemistry!
Big shakeup there.

>He even shows up in that new Wonder Twins book.
wait wtf seriously, i might have to check that out

Roy Thomas made the right choice by changing it.

Not him, but you're missing some good shit with Wonder Twins. New issue out tomorrow. El Dorado is just a background gag, but there's other great stuff too like "Drunkula", and some weird shit like "Thunderlust".

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>Thunderlust
That thing makes me wonder, is this for kids or teens?

Yep, just a cameo though.

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Practically all DC books are T, aren't they? Anyway its a throwaway gag in issue one

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>Childhood is wanting to be Superman
>Adulthood is realizing Captain Marvel was the true chad

>re·place
>/rəˈplās/
>verb
>past tense: replaced; past participle: replaced
>1.take the place of.

Used in a sentence. "An aborigine and a team of minorities REPLACED the Wizard Shazam at The Rock of Eternity to meet a diversity quota."

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>Manticore and Dove
Jesus, that poor bird.

You're right, they made LOOK something better than a fucking Merlin ripoff. His function and character remain the same, you autist

I wish that the seven wizards were the original disciples that he chose to guard over the world after he sacrifices himself to prevent I don't know his children from destroying the rock of eternity?
That would make for a pretty good story right?

So you admit he was replaced? His function also isn't the same as he is no longer around to guide and interact with Billy on a personal level like the real Wizards ghost did for years. You should know this. He also doesn't join the dope team of the Quintessence. He also does fuck and all other than be an Aborigine.

See that would require DC to try, it wouldn't be a replacement but a retelling and wouldn't look as good in the eyes of the PC public, and be genuinely interesting. So no.

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You do realize the current Wizard isn't gone, right? This is my point, you're a not muh faggot who hasn't read shit and yet wants to bitch about it anyway

Thats how I like to imagine him, with the wisdom of Solomon coming to him in flashes, or rather him only following them after his childish impulses.
He's like a kid who follows the right thing only after he realizes it *is* the right thing.

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Is he really dead?
Aw man! I wanted to know more about him.

Except he has had 6 years to do anything and hasn't. Well, again, except be black.

>pure of heart
Can someone having a heart of pure evil be chosen?

Heh, its like that guy from Young Justice who killed his sister.

Scar, was it? He had a weapon that needs to be wielded by someone who is pure of heart but they didn't specify if it was good or evil.

He's dead, but he isn't gone for fuck sake. The Wizard is letting Billy find his own way, and will step in when required. In Darkseid War (though a shit story) The Wizard immediately gave Billy new powers the moment he was cut off from his old pantheon just so he wouldn't die in the crossfire between Darkseid and The Anti-Monitor. Furthermore, we're just NOW starting the new fucking run of Shazam so cool your autism

Black Adam.

So where is the wizard now?
Is he still in the rock just floating around all spooky? Lel.
But yeah, I actually like Johns work in the Shazam books, it looks really good.

>Did they retcon an established family and story dynamic just to add three members to the Marvel Family to reach a diversity quota?
Shut up you colossal faggot. The original Marvel Familly look like that at some point. Adding more colorful fodders changes nothing. Like this user pointed it just the horrible John's writting what is causing the new characters are insufferable.

Okay, if I were to go through the old Fawcett era stuff, what would be key issues I should check out?

Whiz 2, which is 1. The Monster Society of Evil arc. Any other stand outs that develop lore or introduce stories? I guess use Comicvine for Freddy, Mary, Sivana's, and Black Adam's first appearances. Maybe each Monster Society members first too. Anything else?

Harm, yeah.

Here the pic for your autism.

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He transforms into how he would be as an adult, or at least how he sees the ideal adult. Kingdom Come touched on that idea well

I like the idea that it's still Billy but more mature. Like he's brought to his full potential in body and mind. Him being a separate person just kind of takes away from Billy. His qualities don't really matter if Captain Marvel is a different person.

Those character still exist on earth 5 where they've alway existed

Captain Marvel is Yami Yugi.

Yeah you just described Solomon.

I heard DIO's VA is voicing Thad in the Japanese dub of Shazam is this true?

Mr. Mind killed Solomon btw.

this much autism displayed with visual aid is too much even for this hellpit abomination of a website
you are obsessed, get help

This is gonna sound dumb, but one idea would be:
>It seems a bit like it's Billy in an adult body
>But Billy and Captain Marvel seem to have some level of separate awareness of one another, and Captain Marvel will make some choices Billy wouldn't, leading to suggest they might be different people.
>Captain Marvel IS adult Billy. As in the strong, courageous man he can grow up to be and represents his future.
>Possibly as a Corallary to this, Black Adam's default form is a shriveled, bitter man, but he becomes young when he activates his power, but ends up younger than Captain Marvel), in otherwords: a teenager. He's clinging to his glorious past and is making nothing of his present.

>I saw the way one of the Green Lanterns was looking at you!
Now i want to see Hal flirt with Stargirl.

This

To be serious for a moment, I'm really surprised no writer has made Batman take advantage of Billy's naivete before, seems like the first ideawriters making asshole-bats would do when thinking of other characters to make batman seem worse

I'm still waiting for my one-shot/miniseries of an Elseworld where Bruce Wayne adopts Billy

Both Mar-vell/Rick Jones and Miracleman used the body swap.
I like Shazam being a kid in a powerful grown body

The problem with the movie (which is also the problem in the recent animated movies based on the New 52) is that Captain Marvel is portrayed as simply Billy in larger, super powered body. We don't see 'the Wisdom of Solomon' in at all in either the movie or nearly all the other portrayals.

It made more sense in, for example, Jeff Smith's Monster Society of Evil, that Cap was something else, that swapped places with Billy - perhaps imbued with Billy's traits, personality or other intrinsic aspects, otherwise Billy is wholly unnecessary.

Either way, where you go by Billy being both, the Wisdom of Solomon needs to be shown, somehow someway.

>On a side note I hate Professor Stein and Ronnie Raymond having to fuse and shit

But that's the core gimmick and appeal of Firestorm.

What's with Johns and the number 7?

It's like Grant and the number 52.

It represents "completion" in Jewish mythology.

You completely suck the fun out of the character if you make Cap a different person. Don't even bother if you're doing that, fuck Jeff Smith.

Doesn't 7 also represent the triumph over evil or something too?

>gets both a shota and beefcake to switch between, probably several times in the same session

>Seven wizards
>Seven champions
>Seven realms
Even Shazam! takes powers from 7 entities since ! apparently counts now.

I wish he gained some more wisdom of solomon, but otherwise I like him being a kid in an adult body. It's a much more unique take on Captain Marvel as a character where as otherwise he's just kinda mildly magical super man where the only connection Billy has to him is he needs to see danger and call on him.

I think Young Justice goes too far in making him just stupid, Justice League Unlimited was better but a little under developed. The movie leans more towards the Young Justice side but I'd rather that side.

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>Should Captain Marvel be his own entity that switches places with Billy Batson,
No that's retarded and kills the one interesting dynamic he has
> or should he just be Billy Batson in an adult body?
yes

>There's a current ongoing written by Johns that's not half bad.
Nah I just cna't get interested since it starts off with like seven Captain Marvels. Billy's dynamic is mostly interesting when he's the only one, or when you introduce someone new to that dynamic over time, not when you start off with a clusterfuck off them and it removes all the personal aspect of the secret identity, dual identity, and learning how his shit works on his own aspects of the story that make it good. It removes all the personal angles for the story. No one would be interested in Superman if the series started with like ten people who also had his power and he wasn't special at all, and it tried to clusterfuck focus on all of them at once and ended up focusing on none of them.

Shazam works best when its like two or three kids, one of them is Billy, the other two are nonpowered, the other two kids are the supporting cast and know his identity or find out partway into the story. Help him in a few ways. There's also an adult cast for when he becomes Shazam.

Billy generally works best as a down on his luck kid who keeps positive, a bit too innocent despite his situation in some ways. World fucked him over but he doesn't ever become dirty because of it, he doens't give a shit since he has powers anyway.

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When did DC changed the idea of Captain Marvel being the alter-ego of Billy Batson into him being just an adult Billy? Did they did it as soon as they bought the character and re-introduced him in the 70s? Cause I feel the idea of the alter-ego very Yugiohesque and pretty original and I'm surprised that was how it was presented back in the 40s.

kek

Jeff is stupid as hell. The kid got everything an adult would when powered up including an adult mind but he references himself as Billy in the old comics and seems aware of it. Hell one of the old issues Billy was frustrated he couldn’t change to Marvel during a test because he was so much smarter in that form.

This fucker is just trying to make basic shit “2 deep 4 u”

I like the characters, but they do remind me of the Burgerking Kids club

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But Billy is special since he’s still the strongest and chosen champion. He just shares a fraction of his power. So do you hate the multiple Flash’s, Lanterns, and Supermen already active?

>Billy's dynamic is mostly interesting when he's the only one, or when you introduce someone new to that dynamic over time
No it isn't.

>leaving out Apache Chad

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>No it isn't.
Yes it is.

Not him, and no it’s not. The appeal of Billy is seeing a young boy live out the fantasy of being a superhero, and all the problems that come with it. You’re mad that they added 2 more characters when there was already a family. So Billy already wasn’t unique

Not him, but for those you get like 4 at most and they're usually all doing their own thing, with the new Shazam kids you have like 6 characters constantly trying to share the spotlight.
Again, I don't hate them, in fact I actually believe they're pretty fitting since the Marvel Family was already pretty diverse anyways(it had a cripple, a girl, a couple furries, some old man, a fatass, some hillbilly and a brit iirc), but back then they were all made to act as support characters for Billy, the new Shazam book is just trying to focus on every one of these kids at the same time.

Damn it Freddie, just HAD to be different.

Poor Jay.

Also, FUCKING GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER JOHNS I WANT MY JSA BOOK

>but for those you get like 4 at most and they're usually all doing their own thing
Have you ever read a flash comic? There are dozens of speedsters affiliated with the flash.

depends on the writer to be honest and how its used to tell the story.
Personally I'm more acustomed to Shazam being Billy in a grown up body but that is because I started reading the character with Ordway's Power of Shazam, if i had started with Jeff Smith Monster Society of evil or any of the golden age books I would probably feel diferent about it.

in the original Fawcett comics they were different entities that shared the same body, they even interacted with eachother, is when the character was bought by the dc they decided to drop that aspect in favor of the boy in an adult body theme.

I wonder how Geoff feels about people shipping her dead sister, well he wouldn't had turn her into a comic book character if he didn't expect it.

he was probably thinking about Guy though

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I still find hilarious the only reason the lieutenants Marvel exist is because they were just some random guys who also were named Billy Batson.

HE FUCKING WROTE IT! He made the ship to begin with

>”Hey beautiful. Guy Gardner, best GL of this sector. So are you and Shaz there a thing? ;)”
>”Ew! No! We’re not....I mean....and I’m not interested in yo-oh look I think Wonder Woman wants something! BE RIGHT THERE, WONDY! *crap why did I say Wondy?!*

As I already laid out, it's a different situation. They were introduced one by one, all had their time in the spotlight, their own lives, and over time they converged.

There weren't like twenty of them all sharing an intro, all shoved in at the same time, crowding each other, nothing different about them, nothing special about them, all taking away from each other by trying to jackhandedly do it all at the same time in a way that doesn't work. Billy doesn't feel like the special anything because of the situation, none of them stand out. None of them had time to establish themselves or gain anything notable before they all developed powers.

It's a retarded comparrison to call it the same thing

With flash you have flash, he establishes himself, and over time you add on another flash as a sidekick who establishes himself as his own person, and another character. You don't do them all at the same time otherwise it's a clusterfuck

What's the source on this? I want to know if they kick the shit out of Guy for this.

You’re wildly exaggerating because Freddie and Mary we’re already around for years, not to mention uncle Dudley. He IS special because they all depend on HIS power. It’s really boiling down to you wanting a super duper special OC creation.

And no, there are a shit ton of Speedsters, a few which were rapidly introduced in succession. And I don’t think less of Barry, or Hal, or Clark because there are multiple heroes in their families with the same powers

This is a pairing I wanna see in my doujins

but that's Shazam OP

the "Formerly Known as the Justice League" miniseries.

but they are the same person most of the time and even when they are different personalities they are still sharing the same body.

Thanks.

You appear to be applying "logic" to doujins, sir

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Sounds like the only way you can pretend to argue with me is creating a strawman of what I'm ""really"" talking about so you can attack something I didn't say

If the only thing you can say is that Mary and Freddie we're established in previous stories a few decades ago then the story is already a failure, it can't stand on it's own at all then. You have to have read y'all about Mary and Freddie's previous versions before New 52 in order to get them, but that doesn't work at all since they're all touted as entirely new characters here. Even Billy is wildly different these days. You can't just run off "they're iconic names" and skip the introductions and jumble all their inteos together in an uninteresting way that makes it near in possible to latch onto any one character because suddenly you got like twelve characters with the same powers all fighting for spotlight.

>Are you going to argue with the guy who created Bone, OP?

He's a wet brained drunk. Believe me, I've hung out with him after CXC. He sucks.