Dr. Octopus is the Spider-Man villain with resonance. The Goblin is honestly just a garden-variety psychopath with a silly costume and a lot of power; there’s never been anything special about the Goblin himself. One of the most overrated villains in comics and always has been.
Now, if we were talking about Harry Osborn rather than Norman, this would be a different thing entirely; Harry Osborn is fascinating, and his gradual, sometimes unwilling collapse into villainy and final redemption is one of the truly great Spider-Man stories, both for his own descent and Peter’s reaction to it.
Agreed, Harry is the best Goblin, i even like the Hobgoblin more than i ever liked Norman
Hudson Garcia
The Green Goblin is interesting because of Norman's relationship with Peter, and later, because of the amount of systemic power Norman has. It has nothing to do with his costume or powers.
John Russell
The same could be said of most pushed archenemies in comics. The lazy writer's fallback is mirror matchups and opposites with little care to what would make much more sense.
Norman had a good enough start and end to his run in the 70's. All the loose ends were tied off with his death and Peter moved on. Then some dipshit at Editorial said "wow, wouldn't it be great if we brought Norman back for no reason and made him the poor man's Lex Luthor?" There's no dynamic that makes him interesting in the least. He killed Gwen and Pete got even. You have nothing to go on besides "lol fuck u lmao". There's no motivation worth investing time in and especially no sense of danger since we all know either one of them are just going to be brought back to maintain this stupid status quo.
It's like the non-stop Joker circlejerking that's been around since the 70's. He's crazy. Wow, what a great fucking schtick. It's not like every other one of Batman's enemies aren't absolute lunatics either. How about Scarecrow since he uses fear to terrorize the citizens of Gotham the way Bruce uses fear to terrorize criminals? Bats is The World's Greatest Detective. Riddler should easily be one of his top threats because he operates in such a way that only Batman and a few other capes could handle easily. No, we get a lolsrandom clown that just kills indiscriminately and thematically makes no sense to include.
Owen Reyes
This post is revisionist history in effect. Norman has been the most successful spider-man villain in terms of making him miserable and contemplate his duty as a hero. After secret invasion was when they shit the bed with Norman entirely. They should’ve kept goblin dead and had Harry continue the legacy
Gavin Richardson
>Then some dipshit at Editorial said "wow, wouldn't it be great if we brought Norman back for no reason and made him the poor man's Lex Luthor?"
Even Tom Defalco thought it was a stupid idea
> It was Harras's that Norman had been secretly orchestrating the events of the clone saga, manipulating everything from the shadows, and for him to do that to the extent that Harras wanted, Norman could not have been in a hospital bed for the past five years.
>I clearly remember Tom DeFalco's response to Harras. Tom bluntly stated that he didn't buy for one second that Norman Osborn would ever be satisfied with operating in the shadows, hiding, secretly manipulating everyone and everything over such a long period of time. Tom felt that this would be way out of character for Norman. "Norman deals with his problems directly," Tom argued. "He doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. He's a guy who addresses his problems by putting on a Green Goblin costume, flying across the city on a bat-glider, and destroying any obstacles with his own hands. He knows he has power, and he likes to use it. He's not a master manipulator who likes to stay hidden."
I wish there was a physical book version of Life of Reilly
Andrew Cook
>After secret invasion was when they shit the bed with Norman entirely.
Fuck no, Clone Saga was when they shit the bed with Norman entirely by bringing him back.
Ryder Wright
joker exists as the laughing nihilist to batmans "ill try forever". thats their version of the cat and mouse batman has w all his guys. they should have left it there
Jordan Evans
goblin is w great power comes a thirst for more to do what i want, peter is w great power comes responsibility. i like their back and forth and peter driving him crazy but they ruined it w him fucking gwen
Jackson Russell
good post
thematically and as a foil to Pete, I prefer Otto
Henry Thomas
I have always been more of a Hobgoblin fan anyway. i liked how Spidey could never really catch him and he was smart enough to get the fuck out of a losing situation.
I hated this part the most in the 00s. Norman made for a decent scheming type villain but he was a street level at best. Making him the mastermind of Marvel that pulled all strings and quietly took over the world seemed like some serious fanfiction-tier Goblin fanboy waking from the writer.
Jacob Stewart
I think they were channeling 90s Kingsley Hobgoblin with late 90s and 00s era Norman. Kingsley was the one who liked manipulating others into putting on costumes and doing dumb supervillain shit out in public for some mastermind plan.
Parker Martin
Post-Civil War through Dark Reign can be easily interpreted as Norman failing upwards until he hit the competency wall hard.
Kevin Flores
I can't fully hate the Joker since sometimes there are stories I like how he's used in.
But holy shit, every Joker story these days feels like "We're the same, blah blah blah." "Kill me or I keep killing people, blah blah blah." "Remember the Killing Joke, blah blah blah." or something along those lines.
Easton Mitchell
Ock is the villain who's cool no matter what, who can't really be fucked up because no matter what he has awesome robo arms coming out of his back, and IDEALLY they also write him with an interesting character, a dual nature as a brilliant scientist and criminal, a contrast between the power of his prostheses and a pudgy, powerless body, that kinda thing
gorby is the villain that requires, and fosters, great writing. He gets a lot of work put into making him complex and interesting, has a jekyll and hide thing, and is actually pretty badass and deadly despite his ridiculous theme.
Xavier Ross
Ock is More overrated
Jose Edwards
Only if your experience is reading Slott-era Spider-Man
>Made the most appearances of any villain in the Ditko run besides Doc Ock >His revelation was the opening arc of Romita Sr's run >Got to bang and impregnate a blonde Aryan goddess whom modern writers have tried to spin-off as a major character in her own right >His murder of said Aryan goddess is often cited as the death of innocence in superhero comics >Cucked one of the most recognizable superheroes of all time >Canonically regularly masturbates while wearing a soiled costume that he wore when he murdered said blonde >Spawned a legacy of villains that has haunted Spider-Man to this day >Played by Willem Dafoe >Elected president of the United States and acted more heroically than of any of Marvel's actual heroes have in the past decade >Banged a hot Skrull queen without even wearing his very Skrull-like goblin mask to impersonate her race >Repelled an invasion of literal illegal aliens >Was the main villain in the storyline that amended the comics code >Even though it isn't true, fans claimed for decades that debate over his identity as what made Ditko quit >Appeared in every animated Spidey incarnation even during a period where he was dead >Likeness was used in Maximum Overdrive >Decades before Pepe, he recognized the trolling potential of a smug, green face and even used a "Sonic Toad" as a weapon
Norman is the most Chad villain in comics, completely unironically.
True. For some stupid reason, Marvel used the Abomination as the representative Hulk villain for their "Origins of the Marvel Comis Villains" book in the 70s, even though Abomination had appeared like, 4 times in the comics at that point (each spread out by half a decade), one of which had been in a Silver Surfer comic. The reasons for doing so have never been made clear.
Samuel Sanchez
Literally everything you said could be applied to Professor Zoom. Literally no one would care if he hadn't "killed" Iris in the early 80s.
Tyler Martin
its because he's a physical match to the hulk while leader is just some longhead so its better for branding
thank you for acknowledging that blonsky was either dead or in space for pretty much the entire 70s
Jordan Adams
Zoloman > Thawne
Tyler Adams
that's literally a bad opinion Why would anyone like the Hobgoblin? No one likes the knockoff. Who tf prefers Mega Bloks to Legos? Nobody.
>Canonically regularly masturbates while wearing a soiled costume that he wore when he murdered said blonde
Wait what
Adrian Nelson
"Smells like dead blondes and victory"
Alexander Bennett
A lot of it is down to nostalgia. A huge number of Spider-Man fandom are 1980s kids who started reading around the time Stern and DeFalco were writing the Hobgoblin mystery, and there was no Green Goblin at the time. The longer the mystery went on for, plus Stern's 1990s retcons to bring him back elevated him into a Batman-tier prep time character who always outsmarts everyone, usually by just not showing up, and brainwashing a henchman to dress up as him. He doesn't have much motivation beyond making money, much personality beyond "smug asshole", but a lot of people just love a villain who wins or gets away.
Lucas Miller
You best be baiting son
Ryder Brown
Imagree. What puts me off the most is how his costume is absolutely random nd doesn't really connect to anything in the stories, ever.
You know, like, for other villains, their designs often make a lot of sense?
Dock Ock has been cursed with having mechanical limbs attached to his body but he uses them as an advantage instead
Mysterio is a movie and a SFX fan so his costume is over-the-top and theatrical
Vulture is a creepy old man, literally designed to resemble a vulture or a scavenger
Venom is originally Spider-Man's dark reflection, so he's a monstrous version of his costume
Carnage originates from Venom but is more bloodthirsty so his body looks like literal flesh
Electro is dumb and that's why his original suit with the mask is so silly
You know, you can look at most of these guys and say "yeah, I know what this character is supposed to represent"
You cannot really do the same to Goblin. His suit was designed before everything else about the character and that's why it hasn't aged well. Norman and Peter have a father-son dynamic, but the goblin suit doesn't really reflect that. He might've as well been Mr Coffee.
Wyatt Moore
>thematically and as a foil to Pete, I prefer Otto
Oddly, most of the reasons why Otto works in that way are due to an origin story that was written 30 years after he was introduced.
Austin Myers
Harry is my favourite spider-man villain, and his death is my favorite spider-man story. He's such a tragic character, and his inner conflict made him the most interesting of all foes.
It's too bad Raimi fucked up his send-off in spider-man 3, after setting him up so well in the first two movies
So in modern interpretations what works best for Goblin?
With drones becoming a thing and those air board things the glider is easily justified & the mask being rich guy art is easily done. Spiderman Ps4 had a great set up for Norman. Seems the toughest thing to justify is his name and outfit.
Most just seem to do the monster change to do it
Benjamin Ramirez
The Green Goblin honestly works for Norman because just like Norman, he bucks the trend of other Spider-Man villains because he thinks he's better than them. He shows up how he wants to and everyone has to deal with it. It's like he's saying "Fuck the animal trend, I want to be a goblin" and it's not like anyone could stop him.
> Mr. Coffee I see what you did there, and I liked it.
Wyatt Reed
The whole "evil-mastermind-that-plans-everything-ahead-to-mess-up-with-Pete" got tiresome after a while
Isaac Peterson
Thanks doc
Landon Mitchell
It always irks me whenever anyone insists that Doc Ock has to be Spider-Man’s biggest bad guy because he is basically what Peter could have been.
Like yeah that last part is true but that doesn’t make a villain the archnemesis alone. If anything it’s not an argument in your favour.
Think about it, the majority of the major superheroes’ arch-villains are not ‘what they could have been’, they are the polar thematic/philosophical opposites.
No version of Luthor in the main DC universe(s) is what Superman could have been if not for one quirk of fate or another.
The Joker isn’t what Batman COULD have been.
Magneto isn’t the evil opposite of Xavier, he represents the fundamental opposing viewpoint.
Spidey and Doc Ock are both men of science who were bullied and belittled, frustrated by the lack of respect they got and when they got their powers from a total accident sought to use them selfishly. A few variables meant Peter ultimately wound up not being overtly destructive in his selfishness and went on to become a guy who sought to help others by sacrificing his ego and scientific potential. Otto is the guy who wanted to help others too but only once his scientific pursuits and ego were satisfied.
Thats not the polar opposite, that’s the road not taken.
Even if you still view that as an philosophical opposite the fact is there is still a superior candidate.
Norman Osborn.
(1/2)
Hudson Cruz
In fact Norman is simultaneously a ‘road not taken’ character and also the polar opposite.
He’s scientist with a similar field to Peter, they both complemented their powers with gadgets and a costumed disguise, both sought to use their powers for selfish financial pursuits, both went to ESU where they fell in love and were heartbroken when their loves died tragically.
The difference is that Norman and Peter are much stronger thematic opposites to one another.
Peter is a man who pursues science to help others. Norman uses science to self-gain.
Peter is a working class freelancer. Norman is an upper class business owner.
Peter is a guy who got powers entirely by accident. Norman got his powers mostly because he was actively trying to create something that would make him more powerful.
Peter spends most of his time wishing he didn’t have his powers. Norman spends most of his time revelling in his powers wishing he had even more.
Peter uses what power he has altruistically and responsibly, trying to help people but inadvertently can hurt them. Norman uses his vast power selfishly and irresponsibly, not caring who he hurts and often does so deliberately.
Peter tries his best to be a good son to his mother, a good boyfriend to his lover and a good friend to his friends. Norman feigns friendship to use people, is a misogynist widower and is an abusive and neglectful father.
Norman is Spidey’s Joker.
He is the true opposite to great power and great responsibility.
Zachary Price
*(2/2)
Alexander Flores
Yeah, the last truly good Joker story I read was that single issue where he kidnaps Tim Drake on Christmas and goes on a GTA style rampage around Gotham. And that came out in 2007. Over a fucking decade ago.
Raimi's handling of Harry is one of the few things he did right in Spider-Man 3. Not comics accurate but had plenty of emotional weight and his characterization made sense. His use of Sandman and Venom, on the other hand, were his real blunders.
Levi Sanchez
>Seems the toughest thing to justify is his name and outfit.
Norman is insane. That's really all the justification needed. Raimi's first Spider-Man film handled Norman and his change to the Green Goblin about as well as can be anyway.
Jaxon Bailey
thanks doc
James Bennett
I like the Joker but I am so fucking sick and tired of him. I really wish someone would just kill him off already and that he'd stay dead for a long ass time, just so we could get more Batman stories with other villains. He's so fucking overrated.
Josiah Thomas
>They should’ve kept goblin dead and had Harry continue the legacy If Harry continued the legacy he'd have either have become another sadistic evil badguy or gone the route of Venom, and now spOck I guess.
Tragic Villains are great but they don't do suite longrunning stories, the Tragic end has to kick in at somepoint
Cameron Davis
I always figured Goblin was halloween themed to match the "creepy" hero Spider-man was in his very early days.
It also kind of works with the Goblin=Merchants idea matching Norman the industrialist, but that was probably unintentional.
Dominic Turner
Congratulations on literally just copypasting a post from hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger as your argument.
Jaxon Jackson
>Tim gets Joker riled by saying the quote comes from "The Big Store" >Joker starts arguing that it's from "A Night at the Opera" and gets distracted enough for Tim to make his move
Kevin Davis
Norman Osborn is just Norman Bates with a different spin on the theatricality. You can even date down when Psycho was in the theatres first and how the mid 60's/early 70's run of Spider-Man started pushing Norman and the Green Goblin hard. Everything from the familial dilemma to the high pitched voice when he portrayed the "Goblin" was basically all lifted from Psycho to add a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" appeal to the character by taking the traits from Norman Bates. (barring the mother obsession)
Many still think they killed off Norman in '73 to actually move away from potentially alerting Hitchcock and Paramount from discovering this as the comic started becoming more and more popular. Although Gerry Conway dismisses this and maintains he wanted to continue the Green Goblin story arc.
The problem is the Green Goblin is a one and done villain exaggerated beyond worth at this point. He is not Spider Man's arch nemesis, he is simply a classic story arc that is a one and done. Doc Ock is just more effective in comparison and it's plain as day that Spidey badly needs a primary villain.
To me Norman was more effective dead than he was alive. It made Gwen's death more effective. Gwen died and Osborn paid the price for it. Then things like the Hobgoblins and Harry becoming the Green Goblin showed that Norman's influence was felt even beyond the grave.
Gavin Anderson
I take them to be the standard supervillain archetypes
>Green Goblin is the laughing crazy guy who cobbles together elaborate themed gadgets. he's Spider-man's Trickster/Joker/Prankster >Doc Ock is the mad scientist that builds earthquake machines and nightmare rays. he is Spider-Man's Sivana/Leader/Thinker >Venom is the evil doppelganger with same powers and look, He is Spider-Man's Black Adam/Sinestro/Zoom
Nathan Williams
Norman was fine enough. But Alllllllll the other goblins they started churning out in the late 00's were getting to be too much. Then you had totally unrelated goblins, goblin gang that flies around and causes trouble, edgy goblin with a sword and wings, hero goblin that fights crime,
I thought 90s Demogoblin was a fucking stupid idea.
