Why is this a "classic"?

>Implying the gulag was wrong
What was the alternative?

Look at the Jim Lee Image stuff for 90’s edge.

Only think KC did wrong was not making Magog the main character.

Because it put a stop to that xtreem kiddie shit that ruined comics. Comics weren’t for kids anymore; it was long past time to suck that up.
Kingdom Come was a fucking wake up call.

Read it.

Letting them flood your country and rape your women.

The people that consider KC a classic are the same that think Jim Lee is one of if not the best artist.

>implying Superman did anything wrong
What was he supposed to do with the edgelord kids having fights in the middle of streets for the hell of it? Tell them to knock it off and go home? Fuckers were given a cushy dome jail more humane and comfortable than any irl jail and what did they do? They chimped out and murdered captain comet.

Superman was right.

Good art, meh story.

Nostalgiafags

This shit is on the same level as What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way in the amount that it straw mans """edgy""" comics to show how superior muh old-fashioned heroes are

It wouldn't even be considered a classic without Alex Ross.

Ironically, these Nostalgiafags never even grew up in the silver age. That's the reason why they confuse bland, comfy and formulaic comics for silver age. Silver age was actually more creative than these shitty silver age callback comics which we have to put up with today.

>straw man
>in this the year of Heroes in Crisis

Adulthood is realizing that nostalgiafags are correct.

>Implying it's not a good story

In this case yes, but not by default.

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Alex Ross makes pretty, albeit stiffly posed paintings. That’s really all there is to it.

Superman it's the classic hero

Wonder Woman is a REAL fucking warrior AMAZON!!
With a spetacular Amazon BODY!!

Batman is the goodman Batman

Heroes are Heroes

Not killers!!!

There are no female skeletons in this story.

Heroes are heroes

Dialogues are good

The story is great

The art is spectacular

Alex Ross is unlike most of today's artists, who grew up seeing Lynda Carter and Christopher Reeve
So he will never shaw Superman with Vin Diesel face
Or Wonder Woman with the body of Shelley Duvall

It's comics like you don't see in these days

All that I wrote?
Warner did the reverse with the DCEU

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based boomer poster is right

Heroes in crisis is using Waid's model though, Heroes being sensitive and emotional to bad things happening.

Then why are all nostalgia comics not written by Moore and Morrison so bad?

>Kingdom Come was a fucking wake up call.
Kingdom Come was a xtream kiddie shit that wasn't meant in for kids as well.

Superman was a fascist and a murderer that didn't learned any lesson and thought he was right about everything.
>Dialogues are good
Steel scrapping marble.

Earth X shits all over Kingdom Come. It's not even comparable. Earth X was made by someone who actually understand the Marvel characters and put some thought into the story. Kingdom Come is just a mess of a story between two people that couldn't see eye to eye or see beyond their fanboysm.

>It worked, in a way, because the JL joins the UN.
They didn't. Superman kept imposing his will on the UN as a representative of the supers unchecked because he's Superman and what can anyone do about it? Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman got away scot-free without suffering any repercussions for their many crimes or participation in the massacre. They were in fact rewarded in the end instead. KC is a book where the villains won.

weak arguments

>reading The Kingdom instead of letting Kingdom Come stand on its own merits
lmao

Kingdom Come ends with Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman gloating about getting their way. I couldn't finish The Kingdom or Thy Kingdom Come because it was too mastubatory,

The problem with that analysis is that the critique of the new heroes applies equally well to Golden Age heroes and that what is considered to be emblematic elements of the Silver Age were forced upon it by the constraints of the CCA and public morality. It also ignores the fact that a huge amount of Silver Age heroes were created to follow trends in other media and popular culture, and that the driving element behind the guys running the companies was whether or not a hero would sell rather than any sort of ethical or artistic expression. Most of the literary development in comic characters and settings occurred outside of the Silver Age, particularly within the context of DC. The idea that the new breed of superheroes would just mindlessly fight each other while the old heroes would retire is ludicrous and completely unsupported by the text, as we're given a montage of old heroes still in action and the new heroes are completely undeveloped. Even if it was flimsy, the 90s anti-heroes all had motivations, backstories, and context for their actions. In fact, the notion that they're even superheroes is flawed. Again, they have zero context and what little is given indicates that most of them were built from the ground up by Waid and Ross to be supervillains but are called superheroes within the story so the two could create an argument. If anything the story paints the old guard as being elitist, detached, and ineffectual authoritarians who define good and evil by whether or not a person submits to them.

There is a good story in the KC setup, but it's not what we got. Instead we get a bunch of strawmen supers going up against a bunch of poorly depicted JL members whose context falls apart once you look at it closely, all because of NOT MUH.

I want to see a story like a bunch of younger and less experienced heroes having to deal with a burgeoning supervillain population after the old timers had a fit and mostly fucked off.

They're not gloating at all. Their conversation is almost entirely about their personal business and Wondy's pregnancy; the one time they bring up politics, it's to note that there's a balance of power between the supers and regular people. Before that, GL is shown in a meeting with other UN representatives, sitting side by side at the table - indicating an equal say and representation.
Superheroes joining the UN wasn't anyone's goal at any point in Kingdom Come, least of all for Supes or WW or Bats. Bats and Supes/WW are on opposite sides for most of the book. What the fuck are you on about?

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Batman's shown gloating about torturing the Legion of Doom with shock-collars into compliance and using them as slaves in his hospital.
Wonder Woman's shown gloating about leading the amazons as their queen after being rewarded into following their violent ways and being able into scaring the new metas into compliance after the tragedy (mostly created by the Justice League).
Superman's shown gloating about cleaning and rebuild the Gulag he helped create.
Superman and Wonder Woman are happy about their new super-baby, that they're scared will grow up with any humanity because they've none and eager to have Batman, a deranged fascist, helping raising the new world's conqueror.

There's no balance of power because the trinity hold all the power. The UN isn't mentioned at any moment during that diner reunion. The Trinity is running unchecked because they can. The only meta working with the UN is Green Lantern, but he was and remain all alone. What would he be able to do against the new overlords?

Interesting. As a very occasionally comic reader, I admit Kingdom came left me a bit cold. It's beautifully done sure but the premises annoyed me so the whole thing didn't quite work for me. The first question that popped in my head was indeed why the hell is every new super a dick? Why are all those legions of new super so inhumane, robotic? Why do they do what they do? But apparently that was the point? To me, without the period context it just looked like the authors could only see the old heroes as legitimate or something. Old: good, new: bad. But apparently it's metacommentary. Unfortunately I want to read good stories, not metacommentaries. Maybe it just wasn't for me.

Funnily enough, I think the reason it doesn't click for me is precisely because that world was "created arbitrarily to match arbitrary criteria". Saying that the two types of super cannot coexist in the long term is missing the fact that they couldn't exist together in the first place. A world with classic heroes cannot give birth to a generation of 90s superheroes. That world quickly seemed incoherent to me, contrived to make a point.

What's a better solution to the Legion of Doom? They can't be set free, the capes won't kill them, might as well put them to work. Supervillains are the real cause behind KC in the first place - Magog wouldn't have killed the Joker if the Joker was never a supervillain.
WW is serving as a mentor to the new metas, not terrifying them. I understand that you may be skeptical of what the big 3 say in the epilogue but the Waid makes it very clear earlier that gulaging the new metas into submission wasn't the answer; if that's really what was happening, Batman wouldn't be calmly eating lunch with them.
Can you really be mad that Supes is cleaning radiation and growing vegetables in the midwest?
>KC!Batman is a deranged fascist
This isn't true and I don't know how you could read KC and come to this conclusion.
They don't have to directly mention the UN, you fucking moron. We go from a scene with GL sitting as a member of the UN and four pages later the trinity are talking about a balance of power between supers and humans. This isn't complicated. The trinity isn't running unchecked, they explicitly mention a balance of power - one they're clearly happy to work with and maintain.

I don't know how you fucked up reading a comic book this badly.

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It's not even good metacommentary. Not only was there plenty of classic hero stories being written at the time, a lot of the edge was simply personal angst, more overt sexualization, and really violent villains. Going deeper than that, Magog, the character emblematic of everything wrong, doesn't actually fit the criteria of their complaint. The three times we actually see him in action has him going against prolific supervillains, Joker and Parasite, the first two times and rescuing Tokyo Rose during the Gulag fight. He hedges closer to a classic cape in the story than Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman.

As for your second point, you're spot on but it is worse than that. The story features but glosses over a bunch of characters who logically should have been prominent during the interval between Superman leaving and returning that would have shared his morality. That's not even getting into the existing heroes who for some reason fucked off when Superman left. On top of that several of the new heroes are the kids of the original heroes, meaning that the old heroes need to be exceptionally shitty parents.

The biggest problem with Kingcom Come IMO is that the old guard are shown to be WORSE than the new meta-humans. The new-humans at worse were reckless and inefficient. Batman and the Flash meanwhile are shown as having taken their cities hostage with its citizens living in perpetual fear. Wonder Woman as a vain and cruel woman who's desperate to wage war with the world regain her glory as an amazon. Superman as overgrown child who believes he's always on the right and everyone has to live according to his desires. Aquaman and Green Lantern as detached rulers that only care for their little domain (they're the least problematic ones). Then you've the Justice League led by Superman (but in actuality Wonder Woman using Superman as a figurehead) overtaking a state, kidnapping people, placing them in unsanctioned prisons without a trial, with Wonder Woman arguing for their imediate execution.
I mean, the fuck? Then it all ends with Justice League creating a tragedy bigger than the one Magog did. So how is Superman any better?

>a balance of power between supers and humans.
That's kind of the problem as it is based on the assumption that the supers should be a power in and of themselves.

Nothing indicates that Flash is doing anything bad in Central City; a better example would be Hawkman, who is explicitly stated to be an eco-terrorist.

>What's a better solution to the Legion of Doom? They can't be set free, the capes won't kill them, might as well put them to work.
Put them to trial and let the justice system decide their fate? You know, anything better than them becoming the slaves of some deranged fascist that beforehand was shown controlling an American city as his own personal police state with his bat-robots?
Batman isn't any better than Wonder Woman. He also called the amazons zealots in that dinner reunion as a dig against Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman during the conversation said the Gulag tragedy taught the new metas to be more compliant. She says "THEM", not "WE" or "US". Beforehand she confessed to Superman that the amazons exiled her for being too gentle and complacent. She told him that her amazons sisters believed in ruling by force. Her behavior during the book is her attempt of emulating her amazon sisters. The same amazon sisters that later rewarded her with a crown for her role in subduing the new metas. The same amazons now that have complete control of the new metas. These new metas were taken from a gulag just to be thrown in another one. It's just that the latest one will have a lot of snu-snu for them to pass time.
Superman said he was rebuilding the gulag. Why use that goddamn word? This is my main problem with the book. I know i'm being nitpicky and an asshole with the book, but it is because of the goddamn writing. Anyone could have made that epilogue be a heartfelt moment, but Waid and/or Ross created a mess because of how they write things. Superman saying "gulag" just brings up some fucked up connotations. You can easily argue that he's rebuilding his little prison state again. This has to do with the failing of the writing.
Batman patrolled Gotham with literal all-seeing,unfeeling bat-robots that scared even common citizens. How the fuck is he not a deranged fascist?
Green Lantern was shown to be uninvolved with the Justice League from the very beginning.

Because the world after Magog's actions was an anarchic hellhole, where superhero vs supervillain street fights put the general public at risk on a regular basis. The world after Superman's actions is shown to be significantly better as humans and superhumans cooperate to make the world a better place.
Did you notice in the epilogue how all the servers at the restaurant are dressed up as old guard supers? How there's all that Superman memorabilia but nothing for Magog or Von Bach or that swastika guy?
That should tell you how KC's general public feels about Supes, just one year after the gulag.

The supers being a power is inherent; there's no way around it. Even if regular humans killed or sent away every super on Earth, more would eventually be born.
Regular humans also have inherent power in a super world though - shown by the nukes used by the UN to try to stop the battle.
You can't take power away from one or the other permanently. The only viable long term solution is a balance of power and cooperation.

The Flash is constantly patrolling his city 24/7 always running with super-speed preventing even the smallest of accidents. He wouldn't even let a cup fall down in the sidewalk. How can anyone live in a city like that where you've this god controlling you every action like an overbearing father? There's no goddamn freedom.

Alex Ross art at the peak of his day

Interesting take on a future elseworld

Good redesign of the super logo

Self contained miniseries so anyone could pick it up and read it without digging through 200 back issues just to catch up. Which was not common at the time

>The trinity isn't running unchecked, they explicitly mention a balance of power - one they're clearly happy to work with and maintain.
The only moment anyone talks about working together with humanity, is Superman, this right after trying to the entire UN and complaining that he wronged by letting the people push him away - showing that he learned nothing from his talk with Magog. Superman follows that statement by saying that he'll represent the meta-human population from here on out - without consulting with anyone over this decision, be it the UN or the other meta-humans - and flying away. He doesn't ask the UN if they have any concessions or ideas. He doesn't turn himself in for the many crimes that the Justice League committed under his leadership. He just says how things are going to work from that moment forward and fucks off.

Is that the balance of power you speak? Where there's no dialogue and only one side decides things?

>The world after Superman's actions is shown to be significantly better as humans and superhumans cooperate to make the world a better place.
This is never shown.
>Did you notice in the epilogue how all the servers at the restaurant are dressed up as old guard supers? How there's all that Superman memorabilia but nothing for Magog or Von Bach or that swastika guy?
You mean the restaurant chain owned by Booster Gold?

>The only viable long term solution is a balance of power and cooperation.
Too bad there was none.

Except that in context the new supers got rid of most of the supervillains, with the remaining supervillains being the old guard. Furthermore, there is zero indication that the post-Superman fights were any more dangerous than your standard superhero vs. villain tussle (and lets not forget the story kicks off with Joker murdering a building full of people). Also Planet Krypton is explicitly a nostalgia restaurant, it's appearance in issue 1 is the same as its appearance in the epilogue.

Also I'd like to point out that Von Bach and Swastika are written as explicit villains, a murderous dictator and violent skinhead, but are called heroes to prop up the story at expense of logic. It'd be like writing a story to say that heroes who kill are wrong, but your example character of a hero that kills is Murderrape: the Sexcutioner.

>Also I'd like to point out that Von Bach and Swastika are written as explicit villains, a murderous dictator and violent skinhead, but are called heroes to prop up the story at expense of logic.
They aren't any worse than Batman and Wonder Woman, ironically.

Do you honestly believe that, in the KC world, nobody had tried putting Lex Luthor in a prison? Are you forgetting how Magog killed the Joker on his way to a trial? Do you think Bats is extrajudicially putting Luthor to work, or do you think the US government might be interested in having supervillains do some good for once?
The zealots comment is a reference to the League of Assassins. The later zealot comments are a humorous callback.
The Amazons are teaching the new generation, not subduing them. You're jumping to conclusions that aren't supported by anything in the text, except for how WW was acting BEFORE the battle at the gulag, after which it's shown that everything is changed.
At no point is Superman rebuilding the gulag, nor asserting that he wants to. You need to reread the book. That's just not a thing in the text.
Bats may have been a deranged fascist at the start of the book. How he is at the end is different. This is called character development.
GL is in the fight at the gulag, you moron. He's even in the initial "old guard returns" panel. He's with the JL from the very beginning of the story, right with Supes and WW and everyone else when they make their big return.

I understand that it can be hard to get the themes of a book when all you've done is read the TVTropes page and thumb through it as a PDF, but I have my copy in front of me. Half the things you've said are misunderstandings, a third are just outright wrong, and the last sixth is because you can't analyze media on any level beyond the surface level of the page you're looking at.

The problem is that your setup is "supers are unstoppable by normal humans unless they use nukes, of which the supers are capable of protecting themselves against." Most supers don't have inherent powers, and most supers aren't immune to bullets. If your setup is "if you piss off Superman the only thing that can stop him from killing you is kill yourself and everyone in several square miles" you don't have a balance of power, Superman is simply humoring you.

>This is never shown.
Please read the pages after the battle at the gulag, but before the One Year Later epilogue.
I understand that it's not 100% explicit, and that you have to make some inferences based on context, but I'm pretty sure anyone above a 6th grade reading level can do it.

>there is zero indication that the post-Superman fights were any more dangerous than your standard superhero vs. villain tussle
that's the point of the fight that the returning old guard breaks up though?

Kryptonite presumably exists in KC

A few reasons.

It's an interesting Elseworlds concept: What would the second coming of Superman be like in a world that embraced the more edge-lord tendencies of the 90s. Especially a second coming that had Christ like parallels of salvation and/or end of the world.

Alex Ross has beautiful art and was in his prime. (He's still good, but nowadays he is intentionally trying to go more minimalist due to arthritis in his drawing hand.)

The final confrontation between Superman and Captain Marvel was done really well. It was like one of those great boxing matches where 2 great boxers finally meet in the ring.

The traditional superheros are shown to not be perfect. All of them have serious issues or defects. (Diana is cold/murderous. Bruce has created a dystopia with his Batbots, Orion killed Darkseid but hasn't been able to help the people, etc.)

So what you're saying is that the world isn't any different after everything that happened?
I doubt very much the US government was fine with Batman turning Gotham into a police state, but he did it anyway. What's to say he isn't just doing whatever the damn he pleases like always?
He compared the League of Assassins to the amazons. See pic related.
The amazons are shown surrounding all the metas with spear in hands while the metas are all uneasy about being there. My conclusions are based on what Wonder Woman told Superman and the audience about the amazons. Wonder Woman was explicitly behaving according to the amazons expectations of her in an attempt to return to their grace, which eventually end up happening.
Superman says that he's rebuilding the gulag. If you want i can show you the picture. I've the book right here.
How is he any different if he's gloating with glee about torturing the Legion with shock collars?
The themes of the book are muddled by the shitty writing. That's the point you're ignoring. This comic is a house of cards badly placed together that folds on itself with a bit of scrutiny.

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Orion is so fucking good in KC, holy shit. He deserves this kind of end in mainline DC

The problem is that when you're looking into the Silver Age, and the preceding 24 years between the Silver Age and when the comic was released, that's not particularly more dangerous than any other supervillain. Furthermore, no reason is ever given as to why the new supers are acting like that. Are they stand-ins for street gangs? Are they a metaphor for the eventual corruption of vigilante organizations into criminal enterprises? That's unanswered. They're not classic capes, so they're evil. But the story isn't going to use the v-word, despite that being what they are in function, because the theme wouldn't work and it'd make the supposed heroes look really shitty.

A story about an overworked and ragged Magog and the Justice Battalion facing up against dozens upon dozens of new supervillains in the aftermath of the old guard quitting, only for the old guard to show back up and recruit the villains into competing armies because they've decided they're running things now, would be pretty great.

Luthor explicitly states that Superman is now immune to Kryptonite, and given the context has been so for decades.

>Alex Ross has beautiful art and was in his prime. (He's still good, but nowadays he is intentionally trying to go more minimalist due to arthritis in his drawing hand.)

This saddens me. Especially recently because he has said that he only has a few more years left before it becomes to painful to draw.

The guy is an absolute master.

Just as you can make inferences that all is honky-dory, you can also make inferences that nothing has changed. Because the book is a mess. That's my goddamn point. How have you not picked on it still?

I wouldn't worry. He's been quite financially successful and his work is going to be remembered among the greats.

The day he retires will be a celebration more than a tragedy.

The world is very clearly different. But putting Lex into a box didn't work in the old world. There's nothing indicating it would work in the new one either - so instead, put him under Batman and make him do some good at the hospital. Notice how Bats is wearing white instead of black, and how he talks to Supes/WW about trust versus fear? This is allegorical and understated; he's all but saying that he wants to make the world better through trust, instead of doing it through fear as he did as Batman and with the Robo-Batmen. He's not doing whatever he pleases anymore because his fundamental values have changed. Character development.
He didn't compare the League to the amazons. WW is the one saying the second bubble.
The Amazons have spears because they're Amazons at a ceremony. Of course they'll have spears. They're not policing the new supers, it's shown that the new supers are willing to do that themselves - look at how the cyborg guy slaps swastika upside the head for disrespecting the ceremony. It's a metaphor.
Show me where Supes is rebuilding the gulag in the aftermath of the gulag battle. Go ahead.
You can't show that he's gloating about the shock collars. You can't read tone of voice into what he's saying in that panel, but to me it seems more like he wishes it wasn't necessary, given how he notes that Vandal Savage has been a model prisoner and nurse.

The themes of the book are muddled because you're not looking at them. You're reading KC on a surface level when the book is built on metaphor and symbolism. I understand that comic books aren't always written this way, but some of the best ones are, and this is one of them. Please learn how to engage with fiction.

>just because you can make an inference from the themes of the book, doesn't mean I can't make an inference by ignoring those themes!

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>Orion killed Darkseid but hasn't been able to help the people

I love how this is subtle foreshadowing for the rest of the book. That despite all the efforts in the world, sometimes you just can't change human nature.

If the judicial and penitentiary system doesn't work then things aren't any better. Batman being the judge, jury, and executioner of the Legion of Doom shouldn't be a good thing, because we've seen his abuses before. Bruce was showing wearing white in a hospital setting, because everybody wears white in one. In the epilogue he's shown wearing his usual dark colors. The talk about trust versus fear is about their different philosophies. He says that Superman and Wonder rule by trust - pure bullshit and empty character fanwank - while he rules by fear. He's not stating that he has changed his ways.
He did compare them. That was an intentional dig against Wonder Woman. Come on.
A ceremony where their jailer and wannabe executioner was crowned queen. They were right to be unease. And the only reason they're more eager to "learn" this time around is because the tragedy scared "them". And because they're surrounded by violent zealots that hold them hostage.
Pic related.
Batman is clearly gloating.

The themes of the book are muddled because it's a undeveloped, messy book. The messages, themes, and the writing are disarray. Kingcom Come isn't the best in anything. This is as bad JLA: Act of God. The only different is the pretty art and the good pace.

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Fuck off marvel faggot

>As when we built the gulag
This does not mean "I am rebuilding the gulag". He's saying that the Ray helped remove radiation to help build the gulag in the past. Now the Ray is helping remove radiation to plant vegetables in the present.
I'm not going to try to explain KC any further to you. You can't even read the surface dialogue competently, let alone tone or context or metaphors.

Of course Yea Forums hates this book, everyone here is an edgy fuck who never reads comics

That's because the shitty writing muddle the themes. The messages and feel good bits are in conflict with the bad writing and the unfortunate implications it produces.
Take Wonder Woman. If she says in point of the book that the amazons exiled her for being too nice for them and that actually they value strength and order as a justification for her new fucked-up behavior, how can you not find it odd that they're now crowning her queen after all the bad things that happened mostly because of her? We know how awful the amazons are because the book made a point of telling us. One can easily infer that they're crowning Wonder Woman because she stopped being nice and went all ultra-cunt on everyone. You can easily infer such a thing, because the book give you wiggle room for that.
If atone point in the book there was an exchange between Diana and Donna where Donna calls her out on her erratic behavior showcasing that Diana got the amazons teaching all wrong, that'd have been great. A bit of character work to make the book better.

I have read the book, multiple times. It's just the book is fairly muddled due to disagreements between Waid and Ross, changes to the story during the writing process, a Biblical metaphor that doesn't really work with the narrative, shallow worldbuilding, thin characterization outside Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and said characterization deviated from their traditional depictions. If anything the story would be more coherent if you swapped Superman and Batman's position, and replaced Wonder Woman with Thanagarian Hawkman.

>I'm not going to try to explain KC any further to you. You can't even read the surface dialogue competently, let alone tone or context or metaphors.
I get the metaphors and symbolism just fine. That isn't my point and i have told you several time. A book can't rely sorely on metaphors and symbolism. Otherwise Snyder's MoS and BvS would be great movies, and not the messes that they are. Kingdom Come share the same problems. The metaphors and symbolism hold no weight in face of all the bad characterizations and shitty writing. The dumb things the characters say and do fucks it all up and create holes in the narrative that anyone can pick on.
What you're trying to explain is what is at face value. What Waid try to do, but failed. What i am picking apart are all the holes and stupid shit that are in the book. That many times make the metaphors and intende messages feel worthless.

>thin characterization outside Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and said characterization deviated from their traditional depictions. If anything the story would be more coherent if you swapped Superman and Batman's position, and replaced Wonder Woman with Thanagarian Hawkman.
The funny thing, is that according to Waid Batman in the book is a character who's job is revealing the truth, while Wonder Woman is a character who's job is finding redemption through violence. KEK. How can anyone defend this book? Waid turned Batman into Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman into Batman.

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>What i am picking apart are all the holes and stupid shit that are in the book
like the bit where you thought supes was trying to rebuild the gulag at the end?

>thin characterization outside Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman
>thin
Dude, it's nonexistent.
And then the damn thing is about how there's too much violence and the old ways were better but it ends in a genocide, and here's the thing, the fat that the other characters are used as fodder only makes things worse because they were only there to die for drama's sake but the story fails to make you care about them since they don't even speak. Meanwhile, bloodthirsty Wonder Woman, fascist backstabbing Batman and pissy manchild Superman get away scott free and at the end, the manchild and the bloodthirsty bitch are going to have a child and the asshole that can't trust anyone is going to educate the child. What a grim future.

Of course he isn't rebuilding the gulag, he's cleaning the gulag's soil after the nuke. I know that. You know that. We all know that. But like i said, because in the book Superman behaves like a bullheaded idiot from start to finish who did in fact build a goddamn gulag in the first place, you can easily say that Superman is rebuilding his gulag. Starting with cleaning its soil. It's not like the book doesn't say he won't do it. The book doesn't say anything at all other that he's cleaning the land. If i was the writer i'd have at least inserted a bit where Superman says he'll grow or build something there. Like a memorial or something. But there's nothing other than Superman saying he's cleaning his previous gulag's soil.

That's the main problem with Kingdom Come. You've a lot of stupidity and very little world-building or characterization.

its flawed but it was one of the first elseworlds stories to successfully establish a alternate world that was different enough but still was recognizable as the same core characters, also Alex Ross' art can sell any book he touches.
IMO KC plot gets considerably better once you read the crossover it had with the JSA during the Geoff Johns era, in which they take an oportunity to slightly retcon and correct some mistakes Mark Waid made during the original story, of course there are still noticeable flaws that don't really make sense like the Spectre doing nothing in the end other than serve as guide for Norman McCay aka Alex Ross' dad into the dc universe.

Yea Forums, I hate Waid, but I like this book. I don't think it's amazing, but I do hate Waid.
Help me be a proper faggot and find a way to balance these two feelings. Can I say Ross affected the writing for the most part and Waid just rode his coattails? Is there basis to that?

>that was different enough but still was recognizable as the same core characters
Hell no. Not even close.

Waid wasn't always as bad as he is today, same thing happened to Jeph Loeb
Some writers just get worse with age.

I like Waid and hate this book, and i can safely tell you from all i know about this book production that Waid pretty much ruined Ross' pitch with his Superman fanboysm and general lack of knowledge about certain characters (ie: Wonder Woman). Alex Ross original pitch was a lot more streamlined and concise. There was no stupid, misguided criticism against trends. Just a simple story about retired heroes fighting one another and a tragedy that signalize the end of superheroes.

Mark Waid is a good riter. He wrote a great Flash. I love Superman: Birthright. But Kingdom Come is easily one of my top 20 most hated books.

>ITT: opinions

Marvels, set in the past, and Kingdom Come, future, make a great pair for afternoon reading.

Marvels, set in the past, and Earth X, future, make a great pair for afternoon reading.
Even Ross' DC Superheroes one shots, set in the past, and Ross' Justice, future, make a great pair afternoon reading.

Kingdom Come, The Kingdom, and Thy Kingdom Come should be thrown in the trash.

Kingdom Come had its flaws but is still a decent read and fuck you Thy Kingdom Come was great both as a sequel and as a JSA storyline.
I'll give you The kingdom though, that books was a directionless mess that accomplished nothing.

Waid' empire offended me.

Kingdom Come, more than any other book published by DC - Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, what have you - is everything that there is wrong about DC. This book is the low-acting poison that killed the DCU.
Thy Kingdom Come was just DC doubling down on the book awful influence and pointless Superman fanwank. Remember how hard they tried to push Magog and the future of Kingdom Come as the default future before Flashpoint?

Alex Ross drew it, making it an instant "classic".

Earth X suffered from a fuck ton of exposition and a lack of a solid main character which causes the plot to bounce around a lot. The sequels were worse and became less like the ultimate Marvel story and more like just another fanfic what if verse (Odin being human anyone?)

Superman did nothing wrong.

people who got memed into thinking it was a takedown of 90s trends when it covered the exact same ground, only with pretty paintings instead of Liefeld

>the idea that the new generation of heroes would just fight each other is ludicrous
90’s Image full fucking stop.

What is wrong with your brain?

Oh no! Will someone please think of the civil rights of the evil people that tortured Billy Batson into their anti-superhuman weapon for decades? They have to work in a hospital!

Fuck you.

living in what is basically a surveillance state doesn't become any better because the surveillance is literally one guy moving really fast

The problem is you thinking that living in a city where you can't even throw your cellphone at the floor in anger because an omniscient, omnipresent god will return it to your hand isn't unsettling as fuck.

hey, remember when Billy Batson was reduced to a plot device who literally spoke one word for the entire comic?

Remember when Flash and Green Lantern didn't speak AT ALL?

>when your reading comprehension is this shitty
Livestream your suicide.

You should be thrown into the trash not only for suggesting Kingdom Come is bad but for praising Universe X.

he didn't praise Universe X, and Kingdom Come is bad.

but Earth X is also bad

>text says he’s just keeping his city safe responding to problems ftl
>user thinks composite Flash is a dictator watching you why you pee

Again, what is wrong with your brain? You have got to be on the spectrum.

Nice non-argument.

how does he respond to problems if he's not constantly watching every corner of the city?

it wasn't an argument specifically about Batman's treatment of the villains, but it is a further argument about why Kingdom Come is shit

Why isn't Batman then with a shock collar around his neck? Bruce was aware that Luthor was corrupting Billy for years because he had a mole in the Legion. Every Justice League character simple stood back and let things go to shit.

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The biggest crime of Kingdom Come is reduce every DC character to a plot device in its attempt to fan wank Superman, only to end up portraying Superman as a bad character in the end.

The same way he does in the comics. He patrols the city and responds to problems but now he’s doing it ftl.

It’s made clear in the comics that he only just discovered what Lex was doing to Billy when he saw Lex putting Mr. Minds in his ear through a bug.

You got this weird preoccupation for painting the KC heroes as bad guys when they aren’t.

Superman
Did Nothing
Wrong

And if he did murder every UN member it would have been justified.

>The same way he does in the comics. He patrols the city and responds to problems but now he’s doing it ftl.
The Flash in Kigndom Come is clearly overstending his reach. Righting even the "smallest" of wrongs. Everyone "feeling" his presence.

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>user treats a "Guardian Angel writing even the smallest of wrongs" as Jay being a giant tyrant
What the FUCK is wrong with your brain?

>take over an American state to transform it in his sovereign state where his word is law
>kidnap several American citizens
>keep American citizens imprisoned in a literal goddamn gulag
>entertain the idea of executing American citizens
>letting his lackeys murder American citizens when they try to escape to freedom
>provoke a war in American soil that ended up in the death of millions

Batman LITERALLY turned Gotham into a police state
Wonder Woman was a fascist

Why do KC apologists talk in such a childish way?

Anti-Kingdom Come fags are absolutely retarded. I have a hunch you people are Comicgate fags who are just butthurt at Waid.

>So retarded he doesn’t even realize when he’s being trolled
That absolute state of (You)

Granted the sequels were long winded but it's an immersive and immensely detailed elseworld. I think if you really read a lot of marvel it's definitley worth it, but nothing I'd recommend to a casual reader or someone new to the genre.
I do think it's better than kingdom come, however.

There's no privacy, no freedom. Flash is everywhere. You think that's good?
If this was any other story a writer would have pulled this stunt to show that either Superman or the Flash was his grip on reality. There's a reason why writers show Superman needing a downtime for himself as being important.

>Builds a prison for violent psychotics within the uninhapitable hellscape that is post-nuke Kansas
Nothing wrong.

>Kidnap several psychotic and dangerous superhumans, a few of which are literal Nazis
Nothing wrong

>Entertain the idea of executing supervillains who get off on violence
Nothing Wrong

>Letting his lackeys murder psycho superhumans when they escape their pens and cause a god war
Nothing Wrong

>Respond to a god war caused by a prison failure that would have been easily solved by his presence if not for the human controlled anti superhuman bio weapon coming in to SHAZAM him

NOTHING WRONG

>Batman uses giant robots to arrest a murderous version of Fat Albert's crew
OMG POLICE STATE!

>Wonder Woman wants to cut the shit and kill the dudes that call themselves 666 and Von Bach

She did nothing wrong other than be realistic.

Why do anti-KC faggots argue like children?

I think this is it because until recently KC was always held up with praise.

>Optimized superhero patrol is a police state

you're a fucking retard

Sorry, it's easy to confuse trolls with Kingdom Come apologists because they both hold retarded views.

Long winded is an understatement. Universe/Paradise X piled on so many fucking subplots and desperate attempts at making the Grand Unified Theory of Marvel that it all fell apart.

They also had a weird preoccupation with retconning everything magic into MUH CELESTIAL SPAWNED 3RD STATE.

It's funny that you call Anti-KC fags "Comicgators" when your inability to acknowledge Diana's character assassination exposes your own lack of comic knowledge. Diana should never, let me stress that, NEVER own a sword. She's an ambassador of peace. Any depiction of her as a "warrior" is against her original conception. KC tainted her character forever.

Not an argument.

Attached: file.png (561x341, 176K)

>Comic establishes that Diana's mission to man's world failed horribly and she holds herself responsible
>"Why is she acting like her character developed off a traumatic event?"

WHY ORION DARKSEID DURRRR

>Flash patrols his city really fast
>This is the equivalent of a Soviet superstate that employs lobotomized Batmen

I'm starting to think you never actually read the book, just plot summaries off the internet.

>character assassination is okay if the writer makes it the only possible outcome
Why do KCfags discuss in such a childish way?

The Flash patrolling his city 24/7 without stop and righting the smallest of wrong with the citizen always feeling his presence is an ideal scenario. That's the stuff of nightmares. Not to mention that page is shown in conjunction with Batman's police state.

>Implying Diana hasn't always had a deeply repressed violent side since the silver age
You take her bracers off she goes berserk user.

Kill yourself, sword apologist. Any picture showing Diana in touch with a sword in any way is not the real Diana.

Where in the page are you getting that what Flash is doing is anything but ideal? It's clear he's meant to exude a comforting presence like the guardian angel he's described.

>he is everywhere at once

What was Batman doing that was different from what he's always done except using robots?

Do you have autism?

>Heh guys Flash runs around real fast doing good things NIGHTMARE FUEL entry right fellow tropers?

Dude, Waid transformed Wonder Woman into Batman and at the time said in an interview that he found the character stupid because she was this warrior that fought for peace, which to him was contradictory. So he wanted to poke at that with the book. This in a fucking genre where heroes act outside the law to punch criminals in the name of justice.

So I will say this; anybody that champions this as a classic for the "message" or anything like that is retarded. It is massively outdated in terms of ideology and desperately tries to create a kind of dialogue about new-age heroes vs. the old guard.
To which I will say: There is a time and place for both. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the silver age and enjoy some edge depending on both character and writing.

However; what SHOULD make this a classic the the art of Alex Ross. Art-wise this comic is a masterpiece that is very painstakingly put together using good old fashioned artistic methods that take an immense amount of time and effort.
If I could suggest anything to you; it would be to go on Youtube and search up videos of Alex Ross painting. I find it very cathartic to watch and wish that more productions could go to the extent that KC did.

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Waid isn't wrong. The amazons have always been giant hypocrites. They love all mankind, but man isn't allowed to step foot on their island. They're bigots and deserve to be mocked.

>Massively outdated in terms of ideology
Given what Tom King and Bendis are doing to DC its just as relevant as ever.

i remember thinking kingdom come was genius when i was a teenager who could only be bothered with TPBs

What Tom King is doing currently isn't that different from Kingdom Come. Trying to make empty points about things nobody asked about with terrible characterization and messy writing. I can easily see Heroes in Crisis taking place inside Kingdom Come, in fact.

Alex Ross makes great paintings, but his work is frankly terrible for comics. He's way too static.

It's not any different than Superman trutting about trust and truth while living a double life where he lies to everyone and write hit pieces about himself.

Well since you think KC Flash is some kind of tyrant I guess you would think its just like Wally becoming a serial killer.

Or Wonder Woman becoming a bloodthirsty and scheming cunt desperate for status who's willing to execute prisoners. You know, dumb heel turns like that.

Superman doesn't write hit pieces about himself

>Having a private life is lying to people
Do you work for Google?

We totally care about the opinion of a tripfag, thanks for chiming in. Imbecile.

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do you know what lionizing means

You don't need to lie to the public and your loved ones to have a private life. The fact that Superman choose to do it while still parading about how he's all about trust and truth is pretty damning.

Care to elaborate on your stance a bit? I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of current writers is a bit limited. I know more of Bendis than I do King. Bendis is responsible for a lot of the Ultimate universe for marvel and is like one good decision for every five he makes. Expand on King?

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You know what; I can agree with his paintings being too static. Some panels feel more like a photoshoot than a moment in time; if that makes any sense.
I will say though, that I do respect his process and wish that more comics reached that tier of care and effort.

One among several he wrote praising himself. It's still wrong to do it.
Reminder that post-CoIE Superman gained a Pulitzer for writing a piece where he interviews himself.

>Some panels feel more like a photoshoot than a moment in time
there are very clearly some panels where he painted his friend lying on a couch

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thank you

You realize the problem with a surveillance state is that the state doesn't have your best interests in mind, it has the state's best interest in mind?

The Flash ain't like that. It's a comic about how edgy the 90s are and Waid, in his typical show of favoritism, wrote Wally (the 90s flash) as the platonic ideal of a single city superhero. He succeeded in saving Central City, permanently.

He writes wrongs, he doesn't watch you pee. He patrols, he doesn't sit in your bedroom watching while you jerk it.

I think even Waid admits he got Wonder Woman wrong, but did it for the sake of the story.

Still creepy and disturbing and it being paired with Batman's police state with bat-freaking-robots doesn't help matters. Heroes shouldn't be gods that are constantly watching you and on the movie "righting"the smallest of wrongs.

He got everyone wrong, though. Even Superman. Specially Superman.

It's shown in contrast of Batman's police state, yes. Waid loves Wally because he created everything people know Wally as. So his logical extrapolation of his own character is perfection. Batman's logical extrapolation is whatever Waid saw the prevalent Batman writing at the time being (which was Miller influenced knockoff Batman, so not too far from what he wrote).

Do you not get that every verse is not literal? Literally no line in that statement is literal. Do you think Flash is also running a race there, rather than the race being a themed allegory? Jesus, dude.

Righting wrongs is what heroes do, man. That Flash is the platonic ideal of a superhero.

He also isn't "constantly watching" anyone. That's not the point of that image. It's meant as the direct, polar opposite to Batman's paranoid police state. It's a safe place where violence and crime are so swiftly dealt with as to not exist, but without it intruding on anyone's lives. That's what it means by no one knowing he's there.

He also loves Superman and wrote Superman as a bullheaded tantrum-throwing manchildren who acted as an indecisive pushover who broke several laws and provoke the death of millions, and learned absolutely nothing.

Because of the artwork. Anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

No one would care if Rob Liefeld or so did the art.

He did not get Superman wrong. Superman's biggest fear was always that the world might not want him, and Waid created a scenario where they didn't and so he retired. When he was asked back, he came back after a bit of hesitance. And yes, Superman can show hesitance.

1. God tier art
2. Stand alone story outside any continuity so anyone can pick it up and read it without caring about literal decades of backstory

In Waid's The Kingdom the Flash's daughter is of the mind that her father has lost his marbles and he's shown even picking litter people throw, being literally everywhere at once and robbing people of their independence.

So you're wrong.

>That's what it means by no one knowing he's there.
Which make me think it must be pretty weird for criminals.

Tantrum throwing? What? Superman's exile was not a tantrum, it was a literal public outcry. The edgy 90s (you know, Marvel style) was all about this shit. It's essentially a comics period piece for the period they were in.

Every single superhero breaks the law via vigilantism. Superheroes have always toed with the law when it comes to serving good.

What? Someone who automatically picks up litter after it's been thrown away is not bad. In The Kingdom the entire gripe Iris II has with Wally is that he spends every waking moment serving the city and none of it with her (which, we find out, is because he loves her and trusts her to do what's right without his guidance unlike his idiot son, but that's a different topic).

We never see a scene of Wally looking in on someone's privacy. We never even get a whiff of Wally doing anything that could be morally questionable. He did what he did when he was a regular superhero, but to the most extreme degree. He runs around the city, stopping crime, without anyone having to worry about it. Litter is a minor crime. So instead of being an actual police state and mercing the idiot who littered, he just cleaned up the litter and went on with his patrol because that's the reasonable thing to do.

I'm guessing the serious criminals all just left after awhile once that shit started happening.

Superman was manipulated by Wonder Woman and no matter how many bullshit she pulled all he did was complain about it without really doing anything to stop her. His inaction provoke the death of millions. Superman also turned his back on humanity as a form of punishment.

That's not Superman. It might be was he was turned into in events because of this book terribly influence, but it's not who Superman is supposed to be.
The 90's were filled with great comics, KC is not one of them. You know nothing of the time. And Superman literally threw a tantrum. He turned his back on people as a punishment for disappointing him. It's either his way or the highway.

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>We never see a scene of Wally looking in on someone's privacy.
Just because it's brushed off it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

NEW COMICS BAD. NEW READERS THAT SUPPORT NEW COMICS RESPONSIBLE. OLD COMICS GOOD. READ OLD COMICS AGAIN. WE CAN SAVE THE INDUSTRY.

Nah, fuck you Waid.

Brushed off? It's never even implied as to having been the case. You're just assuming it's the case.

The point of that page was Utopia vs Dystopia.

"I let those I swore to protect drive me away" is not a tantrum. It's literally, word for word, what I said. The people believed that Superman's actions and Superman's generation's actions were wrong because they let something like the Daily Planet tragedy happen. They ran him and his ilk out of town. It's why Batman had to go police state, why Wally had to turn into an invisible guardian angel that people weren't aware of, etc etc.

Superman didn't want to go. He fought for what he believed was right until what the world saw as right was different. Instead of becoming a dictator and enforcing his world view on the people, he let the new heroes who had the peoples' support lead the way. Like all old men, he thought that perhaps his time had come and gone and that the new generation was right.

You might think that Superman shouldn't doubt himself, or that Superman's sense of moral fortitude shouldn't falter in the face of public opinion. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you on that front. But I can very easily see it going the other way and I think the comic did plenty enough to establish why and how Superman went into exile.

He came back when people wanted him back. That's what Superman would do. It was also a bit of a parallel to the movies (where Superman flies away saying he'll be back one day) which Waid fucking loves so of course he'd include that in there.

>people choose Magog over Superman and tell Superman to get lost
>he does
Get fucked

I read that issue and it’s nothing at all like you say.

>blaming Kansas on Superman
God you’re stupid.

and then once the superheroes came back, Batman not only maintained his police state, he increased the robots' presence.

>Superman should just become a tyrant and do what he wants!

Yea Forums everyone.

Yeah, Batman's always kind of a shady area when it comes to this stuff. Just the way he operates tends to conflict with the rest of the JL.

Superman DOES spend most of the story trying to convince Bruce to help him and stop being so paranoid and crazy. But that kind of gets expounded on during the Lex subplot.

Clark is such a fucking hoe

How Batman operated was literally how he's always done things but with a robot army. He's always been an authoritarian ninja. Half the city is in his pocket and he keeps blacksite Batcaves not only around Gotham but on the moon.

Superman stepping aside for Magog was the opposite of being a tyrant. He let the people have their way. He could have told them fuck it and put Magog in jail but he didn't. It was only when people asked him to come back and clean up the planet that he did.

Superman turned his back on humanity as punishment for rejecting his ways. There's another page that makes this point explicit. The other heroes ignored the situation or joined the debauchery because this is a comic meant to fan-wank Superman and the other heroes can't do anything without him. This is Waid stupid metaphor about the readers supporting the trend of the 90's gritty anti-heroes in lieu of the iconic superheroes like Superman. The people = the readers. The sequence with Magog hits the reader over the head with this stupid metaphor.

>He came back when people wanted him back.
Wonder Woman did, because she was desperate to regain her status and knew that if Superman came back the other heroes that soon follow suit under him.

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>it's another "neo/co/ shits on an objectively good comic" episode

Wahhh Waid is a soiboi cuck waaaahhh

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It's not about Superman retiring. It's the why and how he still see things. He sees it as if the blame was on the people. That they deserved it.
The gulag and the bombing was on Superman, yes.

>an objectively good comic
which one is that? Because it's not Kingdom Come

>Batman's shown gloating about torturing the Legion of Doom with shock-collars into compliance and using them as slaves in his hospital.
Oh noooooooo, that sucks

>objectively good comic
Never was, outside of the art.

It highlights that Batman is still the same man he was at the start of the comic. That he learned nothing. He's still abusing his power. The bat-robots are still there patrolling everyone. The villains are were shock-collars and working as slaves. Batman's still getting his rocks on fear and torture.

This is the guy who's role is to teach Superman and Wonder Woman's godly child some humanity.

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You keep saying "As punishment" when that is never the words used or implied to be the reason why. Superman didn't leave out of spite. He left out of resignation and exhaustion. He lost everything that was ever valuable to him: his family, his parents, and acceptance by the world.

This is not some deeply layered literary commentary, man. This is basic shit that literally every writer in comics since then has talked about and pointed out. You're throwing some fucking weird spin on it to be contrarian. Congratulations, dipshit, you hate something that a lot of people like. You're special. Here's your {you)

I fail to see how your pic supports your point. He was never pro-Magog. The people were, and when the people chose Magog Superman let them because ya know, he's Superman and not a tyrant.

>How Batman operated was literally how he's always done things but with a robot army.
Batman never scared common citizen. Batman never took up slaves.

>The gulag and the bombing were on Superman
What alternative did he have to the gulag? Plus the bombing was on the UN who saw a golden opportunity to delete all major superhumans.

The real Superman would have kept saving people. He wouldn't blame the whole world for what some misguided burgers did because they were fucking fed up with the Joker, of all people.

That's my point, dude. I was mocking him. He's saying Superman should've just done what he wanted.

>Still the same
>Literally converted his home into a hospital
Wat

>Superman didn't leave out of spite.
He did. That whole exchange between him and Wonder Woman shows that,

>The real Superman would have kept saving people. He wouldn't blame the whole world for what some misguided burgers did because they were fucking fed up with the Joker, of all people.

yeah a lot about this story just doesn't work for me

>Never scared the common citizen
AHAHAH WHAT?

So? The methods are the same.

World didn't need saving. It had a billion superheroes already enough to handle any disaster or crisis. It needed to get out of its edgelord phase.

It's not even alluded to, you nitpicking cunt. >It highlights that Batman is still the same man he was at the start of the comic
Seeing as how he's punishing supervillains instead of double-crossing old allies, I'd say you're wrong.

They're comic book villains, user.

It's kind of disturbing that you're objecting to Vandal Savage and Lex Luthor having to wear shock collars and work in a hospital. What part do you find too extreme? That supervillains with high body counts and no morals wear shock collars or that they give back to the community?

>When user hates Waid so much he gets upset that the guy that claims to have been Gengis Khan and collaborated with the Nazis and Lex fucking Luthor are forced to do hospital work

state? Not create a literal Gulag? Not kidnap people? What is he, Stalin?
>World didn't need saving.
It clearly did. It's just that Superman and the other heroes of his time by extension didn't care.

This. The world was so safe that the heroes had to fight each other for fun.

Come one man, if we take Earth X, what's left? We have nothing man, please have mercy.

>How dare Superman put the literal Nazi superheroes in a cushy superjail after their methods killed an entire state!

Them being kept as slaves. That's pretty fucking disturbing. Something the normal Batman would never do. He might work outside the law, but tried to be a helping arm. He still believe that the system works. In KC Batman is the fucking system. Batman has taken the law into his hands in the most extreme of ways. The robots are there to showcase this.

It’s impossible to make a meaningful shitpost in KC threads.

Earth-X had some good moments, but you can tell the writer played favorites with Wolverine and Spidey being losers while Cap is literally the last great American hero that no one appreciates and Black Bolt saves everyone through a giant series of keikakus.

Batman never double-crossed old allies, you dumb-fuck. Batman was working to undermine Lex from the inside. Batman was just being more methodical and slow in his approach. Superman and Wonder Woman were literally fucking his plans by tackling it with a sledge-hammer.

That doesn't stop him from being a deranged fascist in the comic, though.

>This. The world was so safe that the heroes had to fight each other for fun.

definitely not. remember those brainwave guys?

>Lex dindu nuffin he a good boy

There was them and like no one else for super villains.

>Them being kept as slaves
I hate to break this to you, user, but prisoners are locked up without much of their consent involved. That's kinda the point.

>without warrant, without sanction, without rights
Yeah. Totally forgot that's all Superman is about.

That's more a desensitization to the backdoor slavery that is penal labor. I guess you can blame Waid for that, but prisoners doing labor is just an American thing and Waid is American. He wasn't as woke back then, I guess.

That's because the comic call supervillains as heroes to make a stupid point.

Wow man superheroes taking down supervillains without a warrant or reading them their rights, what HORRIBLE precedent this set that Superman definitely hasn't been doing literally since the inception of the concept of superheroes

>Batman was working to undermine Lex from the inside
Lmao. You're okay with Batman playing secret agent at the expense of innocent lives but forcing villains to pay for their crimes is problematic.

Batman doing this is the problem. If there was a single fucking blurb in the comic where Batman said "I've managed strike a deal with the state to get the villains to work their sentence in my hospital" i'd have no fucking problem with it whatsoever. But as it is that's emblematic of the Trinity doing whatever the hell they want and getting away with it.

Yes, because Batman being sneaky and espying is the same ol' shit. Batman keeping slaves in his mansion is not.
If you're so okay with it why isn't Batman keeping any slaves in his cave right now in the current comics? Have Lex, Bane, Cheetah, the Joker, and so on. All the major ones working as his slaves. Slaves are cool, right? Every hero has one.

I think that was kind of displayed with the big encounter with Superman and the UN. After that there was a sort of accords to get the nations and heroes back on the same page, and that created the Kansas restoration bit.

I guess he could've spelled it out more plainly but eh.

He had Joker tied up in his basement in Metal, lol. He also owns Arkham I'm pretty sure.

>because Batman being sneaky and espying is the same ol' shit
He's also a geriatric cripple, but sure, let's pretend he can do that just as swiftly and efficiently.

Criminals being punished isn't problematic, tumblr friend. In fact keeping track of every supervillain is a very Batman thing to do.

>I think that was kind of displayed with the big encounter with Superman and the UN.
It wasn't. What was shown is Superman trying to murder them all, being talked out of it, then blaming humans for the situation that he caused, calling himself the representative of all the meta-humans (arrogant, much?), telling everyone what to do, then flying away.

The only one showing working with the UN is Green Lantern, who turned his New OA into a recognized country. He's the only one. Afterwards the UN is never mentioned again by anyone. The UN, the US, OTAN, whatever the fuck you want to name it. It's just Clark, Diana, and crazy Old Bruce telling each other all the things they're doing. No talks of conciliation, of joint-work, or anything like it. The trinity are kings.

Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman were criminals too. Were's their punishment? The only hero in the story died. Sacrificing himself.

alex ross is a great artist but its too much for comics

>Were's their punishment?
I thought that fascist shit was your problem?

Ross is overrated, this splash is a fucking mess

>then blaming humans for the situation that he caused

Superman did not "cause" the UN to drop nukes dude, are you serious

Yes, they re the fascists. They should either be disposed or punished. Not rewarded.

That's bants not gloating. You sound like an American, can't handle the bants

I guess I'm the retard now

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He caused the entire situation, you stupid mong. Who thought it was a good idea to build their own empire inside the goddamn US? Is he Doom now?

Why didn't Flash just solve every problem?

This is the same Flash who saved an entire city from a nuke but with like several minutes forewarning he couldn't save the people at the gulag?

Because the other heroes can't do anything without Superman teaching them how, see

I guess you just literally don't know what the words you're using mean. Empire? What the fuck? He built the nicest jail in history because the governments literally could not contain the supervillains.

If they did things your way Superheroes would be private citizens who do nothing or tools of the government, christ.

Because during the fight he was shut down by Jakeem Thunder who is even MORE bullshit than a composite Flash.

But The Flash is explicitly not from their generation. Wally is a 90s superhero.

Yeah but the second the nuke hits Wally could literally just start rescuing people. I doubt ceiu is gonna be stopping him then.

That doesn't make any sense. He was part of Batman's crew, right? Their goal was to prevent anyone from dying, not get in the way of people like Wally who definitely aren't killing anyone.

I don't remember Jakeem's thunderbolt and Wally every squaring off but maybe I missed it in one of the many hard to decipher Ross splash pages.

he's not explicitly Wally until the shitty sequels

Fine, whatever, he's explicitly a god tier super speed force wizard Flash who's more powerful than any other Flash ever considering even the Spectre was like "shit man he strong"

youtube.com/watch?v=CQeezCdF4mk

He was blasted by magic 5D lightning during the fight. It probably gimped him.

No, he was one of the bad kids and you see him blasting Flash during the fight and putting him under some kind of energy bubble.

>He built the nicest jail in history because the governments literally could not contain the supervillains.
He created a sovereign state inside the US. Did he ask the president and the congress permission? No. He and Wonder Woman took the land by force. Build a fucking GULAG inside of it. Kidnapped a bunch of American citizens and held them prisoner against their will. Wonder Woman wanted to execute them.

>Did he ask the president and the congress permission? No.
This is a famoud thing Superman does.

Why are you so hung up on superheroes asking the government for permission? They are literally vigilantes. Their entire purpose is doing the most good in spite of the failures of the law and government.

Wonder Woman killed literally one person: Von Bach. A Nazi who was about to kill superhero. Boo hoo. Poor nazis.

the entire point is to show that this was wroing fucking retard

This is the only American comic i've ever read and I thought it was beautiful.

Earth X is so fucking good as an encyclopedia, I read it purely to understand the mythology

Oh, I see where I was getting mixed up. That blur still running around is his daughter. Kind of hard to make out but yeah. Still doesn't explain why Flash didn't solve, like, 90% of the problem before he got energy bubbled.

Superman always respected the laws, you idiot.
Batman is a vigilante and most of the times not even that because he works alongside the police. Superman always worked within the law. He was always sanctioned. Only early golden age Superman was a vigilante.

But everyone defending the comic is saying Superman always did things like that and there's nothing wrong with it.

Because Kingdom Come is all about wanking Superman. Everyone else is just plot device and dressing window.

Just because you sometimes work with the police does not mean you're government fucking approved. Why do you care about government approval? Like every major JL run has an issue where the government doesn't approve of them but they operate anyway. They also imprison without government approval ALL the time (hello, Phantom Zone). Or appropriate land which, by international edict, needs government approval WITHOUT government approval (Fortress of Solitude!).

Like seriously man, you're making gripes about shit that are standard ass fare.

I do find it funny how everyone is talking about how The Flash isn't "Explicitly" Wally but there's a red headed girl kid Flash who is 100% his daughter running around, meaning it's Wally. Maybe Ross wasn't paying attention, either.

Most comics the Justice League works with the US and the UN. Superman specially. Batman is the one always throwing his childish tantrums about doing whatever the wants. That's why he created the Outsiders with katanas and mehamorphos.

>why is this a "classic"?

Because it's well written and beautifully drawn.

I've given it to people who never read comics and they couldn't put it down.

Man it's been many, many years since the JL got along with the US government. There's a reason they took the A out of JLA.

>Because it's well written
No.

>Most comics the Justice League works with the US and the UN
>Most
Good lord.

In the New 52 the Justice LEAGUE worked together with Not-SHIELD AKA ARGUS. They never worked outside the law. Even if Waller was paranoid about Superman and Wonder Woman fucking or something.

Prove me wrong. I can only call very few JL comics where they weren't sanctioned. Like Justice League Elite.

Do people realize that the first Injustice game is literally just Kingdom Come mixed with JLU's A Better World, right?

They fucking should. KC is a fucking cancer that never stops growing.

Yes.

>That Morrison arc where they fight the Ultramarines
>That Priest arc in Africa
Just off the top of my head. That's not getting into individual actions the Leaguers have taken against governments around the world from Superman fighting Wraith and threatening the government if they fuck with Chris Kent and Hal placing the entire planet under arrest.

Steel scrapping marble.

Of all the influences on Injustice I don't think I've ever seen someone peg Kingdom Come. What the hell gave you that idea?

That was the League, being sanctioned,fighting against the US black OPS.
Priest's run only showed Batman and Wonder Woman being shady, not the rest of the JL.

Hal wasn't even on the League at the time

>wake up in the middle of the night to piss
>the bathroom light of your shitty apartment barely illuminates the bathroom as it warms up
>attempt to piss in the barely visible toilet bowl as your half-awake eyes to figure out what's going on
>you see in almost slow motion as some of the cross-streamed piss dives off-course away from the bowl
>a sudden spark of lightning appears and a slight gust of wind pushes the piss back on-course into the toilet bowl, saving you from having to clean up the mess of a piss-stained bathroom tile
>"thanks Flash"

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>Sanctioned against US black ops
The military was literally sent against the League and the Ultramarines weren't black ops.

>Not the rest of the JL
They still went against the UN.

Speaking of which another example is Superman in Russia with Doomsday Clock and that's recent. The League has never been government cucks, you're thinking of the Avengers who were happy to be Gyrich's bitches.

Dark Knight Strikes Again, Our Worlds at War, Infinite Crisis, New 52, the shitty parts of New Frontier involving Superman and Wonder Woman, and several other comics. They all took inspiration on Kingdom Come. KC influence was so prevalent it became a parody.

Attached: file.png (395x400, 405K)

Not active, but it's not like they make you turn in your membership card when you go solo for awhile. Zatanna is still a Leaguer for instance. Same with Plastic Man.

>Prove me wrong
Do you even know arguments work? YOU show me MOST of those comic books. Quantify your actual statement, because you're just being insufferable at this point.

>Speaking of which another example is Superman in Russia with Doomsday Clock and that's recent.
Superman TALKED with Putin. Was willing to work with Putin because it was his country.

He stood against Putin for Firestorm's sake.

Pretty much everyone of them. The usual set up is the Justice League working alongside with the governments and institutions, not above them. That's why sometimes they're blocked from interfering with certain issues, which spark controversy and rift between teammates. Specially Batman who's always acting based on his feelings.

He argued with Putin for Firestorm's sake. He acted as a voice of reason.

>Superman TALKED with Putin
This is code for "Superman showed up and x world leader shat his pants". He's still an anarchic presence in the international scale. Christ, just crossing foreign borders could start a fucking war and he flies over them.

You're reaching like a mother fucker.

This. The JLA are not tyrants but they aren't government cucks either. The Avengers are the only major superteam that readily cucks to Uncle Sam.

>He's still an anarchic presence in the international scale.
He never was. Stop spreading bullshit. He always worked with the US and the UN. He rarely, if ever, overstep his bounds. The governments are most of the time happy to welcome his help because they TRUST him. It's always a team-effort when it comes to Superman.

>Pretty much everyone of them
This isn't an actual reply. It doesn't even resemble a real number. Holy fuck, you're dumb.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he's their yes man. He's butted heads with governments before.

fucking hell

Attached: HA.jpg (719x405, 54K)

>They used the eagle armor in OWAW
>So Kingdom Come is a major influence
Get a load of this guy!

>He never was
Last (You). Shame you can't stop baiting even on a friday night.

BECAUSE IT'S THE GODDAMN STATUS QUO! IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN! How can you call yourself a DC fan and not know this? This isn't the Marvel Universe. This is DC. Even Batman most times than not work together the police. The fuck,

You guys want to paint the image that Superman is this maverick that invades countries and do whatever the hell he pleases, to justify his shitty portrayal here, but that is pure bullshit. There was a fucking uproar when DC had Superman renouncing his American citizenship, that was granted to him by the President. Remember that?

Butting heads in a calming manner during a discussion is totally a different thing. Even when Superman doesn't agree with a decree he still obey it.

Oh, yeah. Early Golden age Superman and early New 52 Superman. Both versions that aren't relevant anymore. I guess Superman is a fascist that invades countries and shit because of it.

Hey guys, can we switch tangents for a sec from shitting on Kingdom Come to shit on Red Son?

Because Batman orders his steak well-done.

Even when Luthor, the guy Superman hates the most in the world, became the president, Superman still worked together with him.

What this thread taught me: KCfans want Superman to be a super-dictator and the Flash to help them pee.

Alex Ross

>the other night you have to take a mondo dook
>you feel relieved but soiled from the mess that has fled your bowels
>you reach for the toilet paper but soon realize you forgot to change the empty roll
>a red blur travels through your bathroom and in the blink of an eye your ass is completely clean
>"thanks Flash"

Attached: large.jpg (380x265, 13K)

Your reading comprehension for threads is just as bad is it is for comics.

>In both, the Joker kills Lois Lane at the beginning of the story.
>In both, a "hero" kills the Joker (Magog in KC, Superman himself in Injustice) and everything goes to shit afterwards.
>In KC a nuclear explosion destroys Kansas, in Injustice a nuclear explosion destroys Metropolis.
>In both Superman convinces all JL members to join him to maintain order through authoritarian methods except guys like Batman, Martian Manhunter and Green Arrow who are in a sorta Outsiders team.
>Superman/WW romance
>Both could be seen as Batman V Superman stories
>In both the big moment is Shazam dying
Yeah, no similarities at all...

>itt: quite a few insufferable faggots who shit out their mouth

I agree with you. Fucking KC fans with their retarded opinions and that won't stop shitting from their mouths saying Superman has always been a dictator or something equally stupid.

He was talking about you.

I don't think so. I don't hold stupid views about characters.

Actually i was.
Thank you.

Then you're fucking stupid as fuck.

There you go shitting out your mouth again. I actually read comics, faggot. You're not impressing me with your bullshit. Peddle your shit somewhere else, sonny.

Shitty comics aren't worth shit.

everyone and their mother has read KC, don't pretend to be special because you've read something every library in America carries

No i read comics, not just this one. I'm 47, remember when it came out and fuck both of y'all. I love comics. Assholes.

>The idea that the new breed of superheroes would just mindlessly fight each other while the old heroes would retire is ludicrous and completely unsupported by the text, as we're given a montage of old heroes still in action and the new heroes are completely undeveloped.
This is literally what happened in the real world you fucking retard.

It's not a coincidence that the rate of Hero on Hero violence has skyrocketed since the 90s.

>It's not a coincidence that the rate of Hero on Hero violence has skyrocketed since the 90s.
Superman and Batman were fighting since the 80's. Superman and Wonder Woman even before that. Shut up.

also we're just going to conveniently ignore that Kingdom Come was a massively popular hero vs. hero story in the 90s

Are you pretending this somehow disputes the point?

The point is that Old = good and new = pointless. Superheroes in the 80s were already over the hill, that's the entire reason you got storylines like COIE where fucking everybody died for no reason and new heroes appeared every issue only to be discarded when the readers didn't take to them.

The literal fundamental idea of Kingdom Come is that you can't keep doing the same thing over and over again forever because eventually it becomes corrupted. In this context there is no difference between Cable fighting another superhero and Superman fighting one because they're both a thin, capitalist shadow of the heroes of old. It doesn't matter that one of them looks like Superman and spouts classic Superman lines and is called Superman. That character isn't "Superman" anymore, he has become "Superman (TM DC comics)" and exists for that reason.

The reason that there's nostalgia for the Silver Age is that things actually happened back then. Marvel was the world outside your window, the Fantastic Four and the X-men aged in real time and you got to witness these characters grow. The World Building back then was great and constantly in motion. These days you don't get that. The world is static and like a rubber band after every crisis it will always return to how it was. Lex Luthor can never kill Superman sure but Superman can also never disarm Saudi Arabia, Spider-man can never marry Mary Jane, Franklin Richards can never grow up.

It's what happens when a series is put on life support, artificially extended beyond its own premise to tell the same tired stories over and over again.

See also: Zombie Simpsons except with Zombie Simpsons people are actually willing to accept there's a problem, unlike you capeshitters who think the drivel you're reading is just as good as the comic of yesteryear.

You're everything wrong with comics.

Attached: shut the fuck up.png (420x420, 167K)

You're making a mess of everything.
Sure, Marvel in the 60s developed and did exciting things. So much that the comics back then occurred in real time. Reed and Sue married, had kids, and so on. Gwen died, Peter moved on. Jean died, the X-Men broke apart, some of them retired. Then during the mid-70's Marvel stated to slow the progress of time. But that was Marvel.
DC meanwhile was seen as old and busted by that time. Despite some attempts by O'Neil and that Superman writer my mind blanket on, they were in a rut. Doing the same stuffs as always or failing to reinvent their characters. Marvel was kicking their asses in sales. Fucking with their editorial management with mind-games and kikery. DC also started with heroes in-fighting during the 70's in an attempt to shake things off. Superman vs Wonder Woman, Green Arrow vs Green Lantern, Batman vs the Justice League, and so Now the heroes argued and fought each other over issues.

Not to mention that Waid point it literally that new bad and old good. This isn't some subtle shit. It's pretty in your face.

>hero vs. hero stories are bad!
>so here's another hero vs. hero story
bravo Waid

I don't think you even have a solid grasp of what your own point is.

Nothing about what you've just said in any way disputes the point of Kingdom Come. Transpose to the 30s/40s it doesn't matter.

Here's Mark Waid brilliant critique and metaphor.

Attached: Kingdom Come - 20th Anniversary - Deluxe Edition-092.jpg (2119x3263, 2.17M)

Attached: Kingdom Come - 20th Anniversary - Deluxe Edition-093.jpg (2119x3263, 2.09M)

>Hero vs Hero stories are bad!
>so here's the ultimate hero vs hero story where the world almost ends and everyone realises how stupid the whole thing was

Really makes you ponder, huh?

You're likely too much of a brainlet to understand the metaphor here but I want you to think really hard about what it means that Billy Batson of all characters is a mind controlled slave.

Attached: Kingdom Come - 20th Anniversary - Deluxe Edition-094.jpg (2119x3263, 2.15M)

Attached: Kingdom Come - 20th Anniversary - Deluxe Edition-095.jpg (2119x3263, 1.74M)

Brilliant stuff. So subtle. Only truly smart people would get it.

Attached: Kingdom Come - 20th Anniversary - Deluxe Edition-096.jpg (2119x3263, 2.08M)

Explain in your own words who Magog represents here.

That he's comparing Marvel with DC. Marvel did exciting things back then. DC did not. DC only started to grasp readers attention during the early 80s onward. DC during the early 90s was cranking out pure quality comics.

So to say that DC's silver age was better is funny as hell, specially when you've to resort suing Marvel's silver age as an example.

Given all the times Captain Marvel is just called Marvel for short, it's funnier if you imagine they mean Marvel Comics

>So to say that DC's silver age was better is funny as hell
Now quote where anyone said this.

Not to mention that Kingdom Come ended up pushing this sentiment of bring back all the nostalgia back. The classic Justice League. The classic Justice League heroes. The classic silver age concepts. Sentiment that shat all over DC evolution since the 80s. The character development. The legacies.

Wait is your argument that Kingdom Come is invalid because it uses DC characters to tell the story instead of Marvel characters? Are you retarded?

>I want you to think really hard about what it means that Billy Batson of all characters is a mind controlled slave
Waid is a Superman fanboy and wanted to throw another character down under the bus to make a point. Captain Marvel was perfect for it.

My argument is that DC silver age became quickly stagnant. That it was actually DC bronze age and "dark"age that really evolved the company and its characters.

>How will Spider-man stop the latest OC donut steel villain.
This is every silver age Marvel comic.

From 80's deconstruction to the 90's exxxtreme. He's the type of capeshit hero and story that the readers were clamoring for more and more. The more exciting and fucked up the better. The type Zack Snyder would say made comics grow the fuck up.
The whole thing is condemning the readers for wanting such a thing in place of the good and old Superman. Superman here, of course, representing the good and old capeshit stories of the 50s, 60s, and so. The idea being that readers and even characters/stories like Magog couldn't hold on to the ever increasing high. That eventually it all led to a morally and financially bankrupt industry. There was no where else for all the edgness to go.

It's not smart or subtle.

Wrong.

So who he represents for you?

Magog and Superman represent the same thing; the duality of progress. Not the reader, not the type of hero or story or whatever that the readership "wanted." It's not an allegory to berate the reader, the very return of Superman (in your analysis representing the old type of story) is just as bad for the world as Magog ever was, how then can it be that Waid's mission statement in your opinion boils down to a condemnation of the new?

The world isn't as simple as you want it to be, child.

The entire fucking subplot of that was that the US government was at odds with the JL and was trying to use Trevor's closeness with Diana as an in on the JL. The JL found out, Diana and Trevor broke ties, and that led to the awful SMWW arc. You're a fucking idiot.

Injustice is the universe where the same thing happens but instead of becoming a horrible monster dictator, Superman is actually Superman.

Moore's Judgement Day with Liefeld > Waid & Ross

You do know that the Waid had to work with the pitch Ross had, right? Meaning that there'd be a calamity, sides would be drawn in the sand, a big fight between supers would befall, and a bomb would drop over their heads. He couldn't escape it. He tried. Waid and Ross fought exhaustively over the story. Waid wanted for Superman and Captain Marvel to stop fighting once the bombed dropped and for them to team-up saving EVERYONE. There'd be no calamity according to his wishes and Superman would end as a straight up hero. Ross mocked Waid stating that Waid always said that Superman ought to be perfect. He can't wrong. Ross disagreed, of course, because in his original pitch Superman fail to catch the bomb. Everyone dies. And in his grief over what happened he retires or leaves the planet Earth altogether. Wonder Woman, the only other meta-human to survive, following him wherever he goes. Thus ending the age of superheroes. That was all Ross wanted. He wanted to end his final chapter on the age of superheroes. He stopped talking with Waid once he learned Waid was going to do a sequel, because there shouldn't be any more superheroes following KC.

So take that in mind.

How in the goddamn world can anyone read KC and think Waid shat on Captain Marvel? Dude was the hero of the climax.

You realize Magog is absolved of that comic, right? And that Waid got his career creating a 90s superhero?

KC is not about how the silver age is better than the modern age. It's about how both could learn from each other.

What? No! That wasn't it at all.

Some guy that lost all his family during Darkseid invasion of planet Earth in that shitty origin Geoff Johns gave the Justice League blamed the JL for it. So he kidnapped Steve Trevor to make him reveal all the JL's secrets as well prove his point that the JL are a bunch of cunts that don't care for the little people. Trevor kept his mouth shut, was tortured, and eventually saved by the JL.
Wonder Woman then blaming herself for putting Steve Trevor in that state not only broke up with him, but also managed to ask for him to be fired as their liaison with the government. She told the only reason Trevor helped the JL was because of her. This despite Trevor being shown to believe in the JL mission to me the world better and always protecting them against the congress.
She then in the same night made out with Superman while feeling lonely and sad, because Superman at least wasn't as fragile as humans. She could be with him without ever worrying about their connection placing him in danger.

It's only then that Waller approaches Steve Trevor, who's now out of job and bitter as fuck. Waller wanted the JL under her direct control, but never managed because of Trevor. Now with Trevor bitter against the Justice League she used the opportunity to pit him against the group. She fed him the same paranoia the villain that kidnapped him did and pushed it even further making him of the danger that Superman and Wonder Woman copulating can present. So Waller and Trevor decided to create their own JL that can stand in direct opposition against the normal JL. The normal JL kept answering the US and working alongside ARGUS, though.

This whole thread is bait, ignore posters like that and repond to posters like instead since they at least seem to have picked a side.

Magog repented right there in the last page posted because he realized he had a hand in what happened. That's Magog representing the 80's deconstructionism and 90's exxxtreme recognizing the state it left the industry in. That's the Cable stand-in saying "My bad".

Captain Marvel came out of nowhere, uttered a word, and then sacrificed himself. That's the extent of his role. Just a plot device.

Sure, the idea is that even the pure hearted kid got twisted by the trends, but despite it all still could find redemption and salvation. The edgness couldn't be sullied him completely.

But that doesn't mean Waid really gave a crap.

>Sure, the idea is that even the pure hearted kid got twisted by the trends, but despite it all still could find redemption and salvation. The edgness couldn't be sullied him completely.
That's not the point, asswipe. This is why nobody likes you defensive manchildren.

Marvels plays more to Ross's strengths IMO. And was more fun as an earnest send up to the Silver Age. Kingdom Come tries so hard it just comes off as preachy to me. I mean I have no great love for edgy antiheroes but it was just so transparently Waid being "not muh superheroes" that it became hard to take the story seriously, the whole thing just felt incredibly contrived to me.

Ignoring whatever subtext you want to extract from the comic, at its meat and potatoes Kingdom Come is about the people choosing the gods that are eager to prove themselves and deliver results in place of the old gods that held back and simple served, with the ending eventually revealing to all three sides that the choice shouldn't be about which sect of gods are better or right, but rather there not being any divide at all between people and gods. That there should be a balance of power between all three sides. No one above anyone.

The comic is still badly written, with terrible world-building and characterization, and lots of stupid moments and pointless character wank.

>That there should be a balance of power between all three sides. No one above anyone.
where did you eve get that from?

Ross' art. That's literally it.

Manchild funfags are always telling people to kill themselves over capeshit... you "people" need help.

I liked Bruce Wayne infiltrating Luthor's human supremacist group.

Kill yourself.

consider suicide, aspie

>the critique of the new heroes applies equally well to Golden Age heroes

No it doesn't. Golden Age superheroes had actual fucking context to them. More so than superheroes from any other era.

>A world with classic heroes cannot give birth to a generation of 90s superheroes.

And yet that actually happened in the comics industry irl.

Still my favorite Hawkman and Green Lantern design ever

Attached: KC comic.jpg (825x1280, 184K)

probably because instead of being an actual character, he was reduced to a plot device who spoke a single word

not really

too bad they weren't on page for more than 3 panels.

>Well told

It barely understands the core concepts of the majority of the characters to constitute the definition of a written elseworlds, let alone a well written one.

It’s beautifully drawn I’ll give you that, but that’s apparently all that comics need for unimaginative comic tards to believe it’s good

>Supes/WW
>only thing WW does is get knocked up

Another reason this book is garbage

He an every fucking person at DC. “Yeah we did her wrong but it was necessary for Superman/Batman wank so we don’t care”

There wasn't even a romance. They're arguing and hating each other the entire comic, then in the end they're together just like that because Superman needed his happy ending with the Clark Kent's glasses and Lois Lane 2.0.
One of the biggest reasons to hate this comic is that this set the fucking trend for the eventual slow destruction of Wonder Woman. Every comic featuring the SMWW ship took cues from this one.

>rare story where supes has flaws
>"he got it wrong"
Neo/co/ everybody.

Superman's flaws come of as an unintended consequence of the shitty writing, though. According to Waid Superman only error was turning his back to the world, which Waid tries to justify in lots of ways. Otherwise Waid is of the mind that Superman was in the right about everything. Superman is perfect, after all.

The fact Superman comes off terribly in the comic is a sad hilarity.

it is ASTONISHING how people dont even get characters even at superficial level.

>After the Magog incident, Cap retired.
>Luthor adopted a dissilussioned Billy batson.
>For 10 years, Luthor submitted Billy with severe hypno therapy, mind controlling worms and extreme torture so he becomes a schizophrenic slave, charged with eliminating the heroes, both the old guard and the edgelords
>it was shown that Billy still had a bit of his humanity, showing doubts about his actions, but Luthor crushes these doubts with his trigger words.
>totally crazed he went to the gulag to kill heroes, and fight superman.
>it was only when superman turned him back into Billy when he made him realize that both supersides, not only are enemies, but victims, no ones right, but no one is wrong either.
>Billy sacrificed his life in order to try and give the supers a second chance, even tho it wasnt enough, considering the enormous numner of victims.

last time i checked, this is not the description or the background of someone who is just 'a plot device who spoke a single word'

Too bad all of that shit that happened with Billy is background material told by Batman. He was a goddamn plot device.

I mean, i can take the huge descriptions the anniversary editions give to all the background characters, but none of that will make them important to the overall narrative.

>According to Waid Superman only error was turning his back to the world, which Waid tries to justify in lots of ways.
Yes god forbid Superman lose faith after watching the world he knew subvert itself for seemingly no reason. It's almost reminiscent of the current year where everything that once brought us joy has now devolved into soulless entities that only show signs of continuing to sink lower into the hole.

Oops I can't say that though, that's le /pol/ mentality too problematic for this board

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Whatever makes you feel like you're being oppressed I guess

>106717340
>gets owned
>immediately reverts to SJW roleplaying
And people wonder why nobody visits this shithole anymore

Holy fuck, calm down both of you. KC is just a shitty comic because neither Waid or Ross couldn't contain their boner for Superman despite having conflicting views on who the character is and how he should be portrayed.

Nice bullshit claim
Imagine how better it would be with actual proof

aintitcool.com/node/40896
>"And I don't think either of us is totally satisfied with the climax of the story to this day. Alex wanted everyone dead except Superman, and there's absolutely a poignancy and impact to that, a bookend sense to the fact that Superman was the first and he should be the last. I, on the other hand, wanted Superman to save the day with a clear victory because I needed him to have redemption. And we ended up with a sloppy compromise because Alex and I never agreed on Superman's characterization; Alex sees him as Clark first and Superman second, and I take the opposite tack. For right or wrong, I fought hardest against Superman being unable to save anyone at the end because that would have meant that every single decision Superman made in our story, from start to finish, would have been the wrong choice, and I don't think he's capable of that."

Neither of those endings betray the essence of Superman. Also why would you blame Waid as hard for supposedly botching the character when he's the one who wanted the sappy feelgood ending that literally every supefag has cried about him never getting on here since forever?

Just admit you hate KC because cuckchan told you to and I'll go away.

Because you can read it in an hour.

How does that affect the quality in any way you stupid nigger
Damn stop posting

Because Alex Ross art was iconic at the time?

I've never liked it that much or thought it should be considered classic. Nowhere near as good as the other classics of the time.
I guess it's "Baby's First Elseworld's".

Also Mark Waid did practically nothing on this. The story and plotting were all Ross.
It's okay. It's good. It's not a classic.

Here's Ross side of things.
Read what i wrote. I'd be fine with either ending. In the ideal world Waid would have made his own comic criticizing the 90's and Ross would have made his dream pitch about end of the age of superheroes. Everyone would be happy. My problem is with the final product of the messy compromise between the two. Because they couldn't decide on the story ending, let alone Superman's characterization the whole thing is a mess full of holes that make Superman come off as a cunt with the shit he says despite the text boxes trying to tell us otherwise.

Attached: Waid and Ross.jpg (951x597, 325K)

It means more people have read it. It casual fodder of the highest order.
>telling people what to do on Yea Forums
Rock on tough guy.

>whole thing is a mess full of holes that make Superman come off as a cunt with the shit he says despite the text boxes trying to tell us otherwise.
Are you seriously this autistic where you're considering drawn expressions to be akin to real life facial expressions

That's the case you're trying to make. Superman doesn't fit your intepretations so he's written wrong

fuck off faggot

No, Superman come off as a cunt in KC. This is undeniable. Despite him getting away scott-free and having his happy ending he's the biggest responsible for the tragedy. He wronged every step of the way, either by omission or stupidity. He was butthurt and arrogant man and he cost people's lives.

Fuck off retard. KC Superman was one of the more noble Elseworld Supermen and he was great on the Johns JSA.

He was a manchild who became a dictator that facilitated the death of thousands and never saw the error of his ways. Even Injustice Superman was aware he was wrong deep inside.

Reminder that KC Superman tried to rape Lois in Thy Kingdom Come.

I'm glad Waid managed to change things. KC having a happy ending really sells it as not just another apocalyptic what if story.

Given your absolute devotion to painting KC Superman as a monster I wonder if you're not just baiting but really, really stupid.

Considering you think putting a shock collar on Lex Luthor and making him work in a hospital is tantamount to a warcrime I'm going to take what you say with the entire salt shaker.

the chad Marvels > the virgin come

Marvels was a glorified clip show of silver age 616 highlights. It was comfy but ultimately low on content.

>KC having a happy ending really sells it as not just another apocalyptic what if story.
KC is another apocalyptic What If... story. All the undeserved happy ending accomplished was show that the story villains got away with everything.
And Superman was responsible for everything. How was he not? Seriously, tell me. Who took Kansas for himself and made his own personal kingdom in it? Who kidnapped all the unruly meta-humans and placed them all together inside a prison with terrible conditions? Who couldn't control his own lackeys that wanted t execute all the prisoners? Who let all the illegally kidnapped prisoners escape under his watch? Who created a mass revolt that sparked into a war?

Not him, but it was a crime because it never shown that Batman had the legal right to do such a thing. Even then that snide is merely to illustrate a bigger point which is that the trinity behave as dictators.

>No multiverse team of Golden Age Earth-2, Kingdom Come, Silver Age Red/Blue, and The Just Chris Kent

Multiverse Superman teams are god tier. It's a shame its only Morrison that ever wants to use them.

I think I've realized your problem. You're insane.

No argument then?
You know Superman's responsible for what happened.

>Multiverse Superman teams are god tier. It's a shame its only Morrison that ever wants to use them.
Tomasi used Superteamups in Multiplicity but it was really underwhelming.

>SILVER AGE GOOD

Attached: kendounpc.png (626x690, 68K)

Reminder that KC Superman was shown as a villain in Convergence.

>He was a manchild who became a dictator that facilitated the death of thousands and never saw the error of his ways.
He doubted himself multiple times throughout the book but Wonder Woman kept egging him on. It's her fault if anything.

Of course he was, that comic was produced in the cuck era.

Oh, she's not without any fault. If anything she's the biggest responsible. That still doesn't alleviate his responsibility.

No, it's because KC Superman IS a villain.

>magog kills villains
>Superman puts them in jail
>Superman is a villain
mmmkay

No he wasn't.

See all the arguments against you in this thread you little weirdo.

>Superman them in jail illegally
>Wonder Woman, Superman's second in command, wants to execute them
>Superman and Wonder Woman are not villains
Mmmkay.

He was shown as a villain in Convergence. He and Wonder Woman. If you want i can post the pages.

>See all the arguments against you in this thread you little weirdo.
Flimsy arguments that don't address the points raised.

Please do. Because I remember him trying to get 90's Metropolis Kid Kon under control so they could figure out a way to fight back against Super Brainiac's servant and his tournament of power.

bunch of faggots giving pseudointellectual reasons and shit
because ITS GOOD and IT HAS GOOD ART

It was literally shown during the meeting. How stupid are you? Did you really want a fifth issue just for added literalism? Did you want Kingdom Come by Bendis?

You're just making excuse for bad world-building, paper-thin characterization, and general poor writing. If the comic ends with Superman promising there will be a balance of powers then it showed have followed through with it.

Do you think Superman is ALWAYS the villain? Because if you think extra judicial imprisonment makes him the bad guy then, boy, let me tell you about the Phantom Zone.

I get it, you're a big cool contrarian and every cape comic that is praised is actually garbage unless it shot out of Alan Moore's cock.

None of the things you said are true. With the bare exception of Wonder Woman being a warhawk, the thing is so tightly paced and saturated with characterization and worldbuilding that it's a standout of the entire medium. Your vague ass, hypocritical, often times autistic interpretation aside.

>How dare he imprison the literal nazi superheroes named 666 and von bach and their followers?

it's rlly good

Won't someone please think of the Nazis!

Ironic that Waid now works for Marvel who floods the market with hero vs. hero events. I’m really curious what he thought of Stevil and Secret Empire.

>Superman has to be perfect. He’s always right.
This is why Superfags and Capfags are unbearable. They just want a concept instead of an actual character.