Zack Synder reveals original plan for darker Justice League

2 years on and still trying to explain how he didn't tank Batman and Superman's earning potential. He needs a hobby.

What a big fucking baby. He’s pissy Aquaman did well, and that Shazam is getting good press so he feels the need to put himself back in the spotlight by shouting WELL THIS IS HOW I WOULD HAVE DONE IT! on social media and rant about Batman killing people. Jesus, Snyder, move on

>Muh edgy Superman
>Muh dead love interest
Shitty ideas

Just let it go Zach, it’s done, your role as the mastermind is over. Just let it go and move on to other projects

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>He’s pissy Aquaman did well

Is that why he gave free consultation to Wan so that it would match his vision instead of Whedon's dudebro Aquaman?

So he could pretend the he was responsible for its sucess instead of the guys who wrote,directed and produced it

>instead of Whedon's dudebro Aquaman?
It's still the same characterization just with more story and character interaction.

t. Retard

Who cares? It would have only mattered if they had built up Lois as a character anyway. As it was, it would have had zero emotional payoff. Just like everything else that happened in Snyder's "movies".

>Jesus, Snyder, move on

Being unable to move on and grow up is how we ended up with a 50+ year old edgelord making comic book movies in the first place.

>Snyder revealed to a packed audience how the dark 'Knightmare' future that was glimpsed in Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice came to be.
"I've never actually touched a Superman comic book in my life, but someone showed me a cutscene from Injustice and I thought it was pretty cool, so I made a music video about it and slapped it into the middle of the movie"

Why the fuck would Superman expect Batman to protect Lois? What the fuck does he think he'll do? If anything it'll actually be his own fault for allowing himself to have Lois be left alone with the only Powerless member of his team, Non the less have him protect her from someone as powerful like Darkseid, Fucking Dumbass

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>and that's why he says, 'She was my world, and you took her from me."
And people wonder why Snyder doesn't get praised for his originality and brilliance

>B-but Snyder always wanted the classic superman, he just wanted to build up to it
Can snyder cucks finally drop that? Snyder didn't care about that, there was never going to be room for it, in JL he would have been evil for most of his screentime and good for some of it and completely absent for most of it and then in JL2 he would have been evil for almost all of it. Fuck that shit

>consultation

He did absolutely fuck-all. The movie was already done, Wan just let him watch while they finished editing it.

There isn't anything wrong with dark or edgy shit in Snyder's movies. Hell, that's not any darker than the stuff you see in Infinity War.

The difference is, YOU HAVE TO EARN IT. They wanted to get to the fireworks factory so quickly they never bothered to develop any characters or create any relatable stories. It's just a bunch of random narcissism with zero payoff.

Even if it wasn't bullshit, why? Everyone knows what's Superman's deal is, everyone has known for the past 80 years, nobody has ever said "Woah hey now why does this guy do good deeds?" and even if they did, Smallville already had 10 years about it.

This.
Jimmy Olsen being shot in the face a minute into his appearance symbolizes Snyderman more than the even the Tornado, Necksnappering or Martha scenes. It sums up all of Snyder's work on the DCEU in one scene.

Comic book movies are for braindead kids and there's no point in trying to make them look smarter with a bunch of edgelord shit.

Logan is the only exception.

Nah, we didn't. It was a reasonable conclusion, but many of his fans denied it since there was no actual direct proof.

Snyder doesn't get to introduce kid Clark as the tortured angry child, segue into him wandering the country as a sullen drifter, but then immediately get to the benefit of the last 40 years of do-gooding represented in other properties.
He made damn certain his "Superman" was uniquely his.

> I put a teaser to an evil superman in BvS! I'm a genius
>I also forgot to make this dark future important because Superman was at best a slightly-concerned outsider with a lot to answer for and at worst a murderer with a god complex, so making him full dark was pointless.
>I also forgot to make his conflict with batman mean anything by having them be friends or allies beforehand, or by having their conflict be based on a difference of ideas about murder, the most controverial of superman's actions, by making batman also be a murderer.
>also I didn't use the black superman suit because I wasted it when I did the exact same "bad end hallucination" shit in MoS

As has been pointed out ad nauseum by Snyder's defense force, that's "muh" Superman. This was explicitly *not* "muh" Superman.
Being a fresh start, wanting to be seen as a hot new take, means you don't get to stand on the shoulders of giants and cash in on decades worth of goodwill that has already been built up.
You either keep your head down and stay in their shadow or risk stepping out on your own and being judged on your own. There is functionally no middle ground.

Edgelord shit is fine, you just have to earn the right to have it. Logan earned it because we got to care about Wolverine because of all the previous movies. Even if half of them were shit.

Except nobody paid to see "Zack Snyder's take on Superman", the vast majority of people who went to see the movie don't even know who Zack Snyder is, people wanted to see a Superman movie. "Muh" Superman, if you will.

It is, BvS had the bad guys threatening an old lady with a flamethrower.

Snyder is so edgy that a Moon Knight movie would be less edgy than his works

>the vast majority of people who went to see the movie don't even know who Zack Snyder is, people wanted to see a Superman movie.
This, and the trailers, which are still out there, do NOT advertise a "Snyder"-esque Superman.
They have a very, VERY Donnerish feel, Zack and the studio knew what they were doing there.

Snyder is a committed Randroid so of course he isn't going to buy into the idea that Supes is a good person simply because the Kents taught him love and kindness. There needs to be some bullshit about personal tragedy and destiny to greatness to force him into becoming a superhero.

It doesn't surprise me that his daughter committed suicide.

She is good in the comics and cartoons

>It's still the same characterization

No it's not. Wan's Aquaman might be a chad, but he isn't a juvenile dudebro.

Fuck Jimmy Olsen.

>Except nobody paid to see "Zack Snyder's take on Superman"

I paid to see it twice.

Not him but I’m genuinely confused what the difference is between those two Arthur’s

I'm so sorry.

>Logan is the only exception

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now i wish that we got snyder's league just to witness the shitstorm

>'Knightmare Sequence'

Yugioh x DC crossover when

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Modern yugioh cards are ugly as fuck, that's why this game died while Pokemon and Magic are still well., needlessly overdetailed cards and rules.

Snyder could be fine in a self contained story like Kingdom Come (that is, if you wanted an edgelord with no awareness of what that graphic novel is warning about)

Snyder would be tolerable as a cinematographer working under a better Director.
Or better yet just cutting trailers.

His way of filming action shots is kind of dated now though. I'm glad Aquaman parted with it completely.

•So glad this Edgelord, hack is away from the DCEU

It's okay to try your own version if you just put it out as your own version. What he did was actively shit on the giants and even now he won't stop saying his version is superior to the ones people love in the past.

Imagine still being a Snyder worshipper in the modern day when DCEU has moved completely past him and the movies are doing better for it

Just imagine

They will never change. They are without a doubt one of the most deluded fanboys on the Internet

>Even if it wasn't bullshit, why? Everyone knows what's Superman's deal is, everyone has known for the past 80 years, nobody has ever said "Woah hey now why does this guy do good deeds?
Do you see how Lex is portrayed in BvS? That's Snyder's mindset.

"He can't just be a good guy raised by good parents to be a good person, he has to LEARN how not to be evil"

>Being a fresh start, wanting to be seen as a hot new take, means you don't get to stand on the shoulders of giants and cash in on decades worth of goodwill that has already been built up.
What's especially weird is that he very clearly wanted to push a "this ain't your daddy's Superman/Batman, these are brand new hot takes" but at the same time wanted to subvert audience expectations of them which only work if you're writing under the assumption that the audience already has preconceived emotions about these characters

Larry Fong does his cinematographer. Just give that guy work and scratch out Snyder.

youtube.com/watch?v=T6DJcgm3wNY

The trailers were so good. They were SO fucking good

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>that's why this game died
No it didn't

So Snyder's mindset is like his Lex and his recent statement about Batman killing is taken straight out of Manchester Black. Is this intentional sabotage or just lack of awareness coupled with stupidity?

Speaking as someone that defended MoS, and didn't mind the idea of a aged Batman that kills only because he feels like his half measures is what got Robin killed, I'm rather disappointed on how Snyder has been acting out all of this and i feel a bit dirty for defending his bullshit. No wonder his daughter committed suicide.

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I wonder if he's going to remain at Warner Bros? Why not keep a great screen writer on payroll?

He has a job so as long as his wife does.

>No wonder his daughter committed suicide.
the edge tho

I only defended MoS when it came out as a one-time thing assuming that there would be a sequel that acknowledged it's mistakes, moved past the things that didn't work and gave us a good interpretation of Superman

I no longer defend MoS

careful with that edge

What's a matter Snyder. I'm just being real. You're living in a dreamland or something?

You knew darkseid boomtubed into the batcave and killed lois? You knew batman was dragging around a half cyborg? Retard

So we can finally drop the "Snyder was going to give us the real Superman eventually" thing now right? Like he clearly had 0 intention of doing that.

THEN WHAT WAS HE GOING TO GIVE US AT THE END !!!??????

His kingdom come wouldn't end with superman realizing that he is a human instead of a god.

It could have been great

His plan was Injustice, which is really just Kingdom Come gone wrong, which is really just Moore's Twilight of The Superheroes but with a happy ending.

Even Logan had a metric fuck ton of dumb shit, like Monsanto killing the mutants and once again doing the “add tons of random characters with random powers” near the end. The movie worked because we had a previously established emotional connection to the X-Men and two characters portrayed by amazing actors. It’s on their backs Logan succeeds, not the writing itself

Nothing, his fresh and inexperienced JL would have killed Darkseid and then they would have rebooted using Flashpoint rendering all that "development" useless

The latter, especially when you remember literally anything the Snyders said about AlLex

That was my beef with MoS. Killing off John Kent. As a stand alone movie it would have been fine. Yet the remainder of the cinematic universe it was the foundation on. Killing off Clark's father figure right away to not provide life advice?

It's a good thing when the life advice is "Throw a schoolbus full of children at Zod, Clark" and "The horses Clark".

I was baffled at how baffling and pointless his death was. The idea of sacrificing himself for a dog was stupid enough, but due to the incompetent movie structure we already knew he died for nothing since Clark was already shown putting his identity at risk by saving people at the opening scene

Also how am I supposed to root for a guy who is willing to let his dad die to protect his own identity when there are a lot of ways he could have saved him without even making it obvious eh was superpowered? Fucker never even tried. If he's willing to sacrifice his dad like that why wouldn't he be willing to do the same to me? A civilian he doesn't even know?

Probably would had told Clark not to leap over gas tankers sense he is invulnerable?

Hack synder

He would have told him to. If he jumps over it then any witnesses to his superpowered feats that are directly behind him are taken care of. Easy peasy.

No way a super powered son would willingly leave thier father to die like that.

I would unironically love a character drama about Kevin Costner and Russel Crowe fighting for the guard of kid Clark

No user that's how it is in a real world and you're just living in a dream world!

I could keep my suspension of disbelief if that scene had a payoff, but we aren't shown the big moment where Clark decides to disobey his father and do heroic stuff.

Snyder did everything wrong. So glad he's gone from the franchise.

>Batman assembles the justice league to fight steppenwolf
>they win, but get KO’ by darkseid, who now has to deal with Superman.
>darkseid straight up murders Lois in a surprise attack to force Superman to succumb to anti-life
>part one ends in knightmare world with Diana and Arthur dead.
>part two is when they go back in time, now they understand lois’s significance, and protect her
>the rest of the movie is basically justice league:war
I think I’m starting to see what Snyder and Nolan had planned for the DCEU. Start off with a Harry Potter style saga with Supes and Lois at the center, and their success after all the grimdark shenanigans brings in the new age of heroes (aka solo movies like Aquaman and Shazam)
It would explain why there’s no MOS sequel planned, all of this would have been Superman’s story.
I’m not sure if I like this approach (and audiences would have hated it) but it’s still interesting. Creative freedoms is good.

Creative freedom is good but it only works if it is executed properly. It also has to, you know, actually pay off. What Snyder was doing just wasn't right for the audience, nor the characters

Whedon' version was better

You damn well know that's not how it's going to go if Snyder is in charge. Everything is going to be grimdark to make it more "mature" and "adult"

I disagree. The price of creative freedom is how you can’t please everyone.
When it comes to the characters, I’ve been reading comics for a while and I’ve learned to just roll with new interpretations. To be honest, compared to what King and Bendis are putting out, I’d go as far to say that Snyder’s versions of Batman and Superman are more thought out, even if they are different. But that’s just me I guess.

Some edgy misery show that he tries to sell off as deep with some half hearted symbolism here and there

I don't think having the whole ensemble appear before the solo movies was a good idea in any way, idea seems interesting but I doubt it would've worked as nigga would've had to get us familiar with characters in very little time

The problem with comparing comics and movies are that the idea of who these characters are, to the general public anyway, is mostly based on their portrayal from mainstream movies. You can roll with it in the comics because most people who read it are more knowledgeable about the characters considering we have read more runs including different interpretations about the them. Having a "new" Superman be grimdark without having the standard base is just a dumb move. Especially when you advertise it as being a Superman movie. I mean I read Injustice and enjoy it because I know the backstory behind it; That it is a comic tie in made to help sell the game. So I'm more ready to roll with the stupidity and outrageousness coupled with the very different and stupid characters.

Which I get but we are talking about multi-million dollar films here. Films that are supposed to prop each other up to lead into a bigger cinematic universe. If these were just one-offs, you can skirt by but these are the films that will be in people's consciousness as "the version" of the hero going forward especially if it is in a cinematic universe.

Comics reboot all the time so you can get away with this kind of thing but we're dealing with the worldwide box office

When you are dealing with the most expensive film in history you kind of want to please everyone. Snyder was the wrong guy to lead this project from the get go.

I'll repeat what the other user said, having creative freedom doesn't automatically imply you made good use of it

Just imagine still being mad at a movie you didn't like years after the fact.

All of his movies had to deal with executive meddling.

VERY COOL
>Knightmare
Wait what, there's no way he came up with that on his own

>it's everybodys fault but his

I understand what you guys are saying, but this sounds more like audiences need to be more open minded than restricting the creative team. Especially since superhero movies are getting so stale.

But now we’ll never know because it’s and incomplete story.

Look, I’m not trying to defend Snyder specifically, I just don’t like the idea of directors/writers/artist/whathaveyou conforming to audience desires over their own vision. The best films/shows/stories come from ideas that people don’t expect. That’s why there’s such and originality drought in the film industry right now. Companies are too busy worrying about what people want and just aping off original ip’s from yesteryear. I feel Snyder was just trying to break that pattern.
(This is a good conversation bros but I gotta head to work.)

So Larry is bangin' his cinematographer?

Hot.

Between Snyder and Bendis it sucks being a Supes fan right now. Well at least Billy is getting some press

Why would I be mad at a movie? If anything I'm disappointed in his worshippers

>but this sounds more like audiences need to be more open minded than restricting the creative team
Or more like the creative team itself did not execute things well.

If Snyder made this as an independent film purely for art's sake, of course he could do whatever he wanted, but these are keystone movies in a cinematic universe costing millions upon millions of dollars. Hell, they were the FIRST movies in the universe.

> I just don’t like the idea of directors/writers/artist/whathaveyou conforming to audience desires over their own vision. The best films/shows/stories come from ideas that people don’t expect.
I agree. However, execution also matters. If anything, it's the deciding factor

>that's why this game died
Lol get a load of this guy

I understand and agree with your point about creative freedom in general. The problem is that he is trying to cash in on previous iterations by making an entirely new character but still banking on people thinking this is similar to the previous one. Superman crying after having killed Zod for example would only have weight if you are familiar with regular Superman having an aversion to killing. So he uses a new version but hopes that the characterization from previous movies is still connected to this one. There's also the issue of fans of the character already knowing who he is supposed to be.

Like Jim shooter said, it's a relationship. If you establish a character a certain way then change that then it becomes a betrayal of the relationship between you and all the fans of that character. This is not even going into how he keeps saying that the characters are shit and for kids in interviews.

Also his movies have a ton of problems other than characterization, especially with character motivations but that's not what we're discussing so I'm not going to get into that.

Retards

>But now we’ll never know because it’s and incomplete story
I found the start meh and the middle actively stupid, i don't understand why i should get interested in the ending of this mess

When did this board become Yea Forums?

it is now

Why didn't Batman just rape Superman in BvS?

I liked her, so killing her would be retarded

What do you think the spear was for?

I'm tired of your bullshit, Gordon.

Maximum Chuuni League

This. If this was some kind of elseworlds spin-off no one would bat an eye. But they did this as their mainline thing which is beyond retarded.

You're funny. Anybody tell you that you should open for Dane Cook?

His daughter commited suicide and Zack "the Hack" Snyder still can't grow up from superheroes, damn, that's edgy

well, if you really think about it,
The whole BvS fight was two guys in a dark bathroom, the guy in black leather suit tied the other guy up by the ankle and makes the other guy moan
Then the black suit guy try to penetarte the other guy with a long green stick but hears the sfae word "Martha" and stopped
I am pretty sure Zack watched gay porn to write this script

>The difference is, YOU HAVE TO EARN IT. They wanted to get to the fireworks factory so quickly they never bothered to develop any characters or create any relatable stories.
Agreed. If you have the death of Superman coming right off of Batman and Superman hating each other, and then Superman succumbing to darkness right off of the death of Superman, then none of these moments that should be painful actually work.

When he died and the movie made it look like the audience should be sad I actually just felt relieved. Like good riddance, now when are the rest going to die so we can get rid of this shit?

How the fuck do you think a Zack Snyder KC would work when everyone acts like Magog already?

How the fuck would there still be any sort of "resistance" if darkseid had the anti-life equation? I hate how people miss the point of the character that badly

He can't just use the anti life equation that easily. He only uses it on the strongest enemies and only as a last resort. You see when he was younger someone used the ALE against him to rape him in prison so it is very traumatizing for him to use it himself.

He is just making up stuff

>He can't just use the anti life equation that easily.
If he got the full Equation he can use it freely, otherwise it would not achieve his goal of isntantly taking over all sentient beings in existence.

He can't user. Even if he had the full equation. Read the rest of the post.

I don't know what's the worst part, that you actually answered that question or that you didn't read the whole post

No infighting user. We all want Darkseid to stop getting raped in prison.

DID NONE KF YOU UNDERSTAND THE "SHES THE KEY LOIS SHES THE KEY" SCENE IN BVS!? ARE YOU ALL RETARDED!? IT WAS OBVIOUS THIS WAS PLANNED! I FUCKING HATE THAT LEGITIMATELY AUTISTIC MEMESTERS THINK THIS SHIT IS NEWS

cinemablend.com/news/2465031/zack-snyder-applauds-fans-t-shirt-based-justice-league-2-theory

>The general idea behind this design is that it hints at what was going to happen in Justice League 2. Fans are poring over this and giving their own interpretations of what the images mean, but only one seems to have gotten a personal reaction from Zack Snyder.

>Posting on the social media platform Vero (via Reddit), one fan believes he cracked the code of the design. It depicts that Superman impregnates Lois Lane after his resurrection. She's pregnant in Justice League 2 and Batman saves her from Darkseid, sacrificing himself to save the world. The movie ends with the birth of Lois and Clark's son, who they name Bruce.

>This comment received a clap emoji from Zack Snyder, which usually means "good job." This could be interpreted to mean that Snyder is confirming that the fan is right on the money. It could also mean that he's just giving the fan a pat on the back for a good theory. It's best not to read into it too deeply, but it would have been an interesting way to end the movie.

>audiences need to be more open minded than restricting the creative team
That's not how entertainment works. The consumer has zero obligation to enjoy a product. Snyder made a series of shitty movies and the public disliked them, so he was kicked out. There's literally nothing more to it.

>The price of creative freedom is how you can’t please everyone.
The problem is that Snyder's movies weren't pleasing enough people to justify the trajectory. When a fucking Aquaman movie outperforms a movie with Batman AND Superman you have a huge problem on your hands.

wow, so Jimmy Olsen wasn't enough? Lois Lane too?

I wonder if Perry White was going to get molested or something on top of this.

>Or in general.

literally one of the most prominent female comic characters

I hate you casual autists who dismiss supporting casts who exist for a reason

I keep saying that Snyder didn't really understand the appeal of Superman, but then he keeps going on to prove me right.

No you're thinking of Batman. Batman's going to get raped in prison.

No, the idea is that Lois getting killed is what causes the Knightmare World seen in BvS, or something, and that's what Flash traveled back in time to warn about.

The actual ending to Snyder's Justice League saga is that Batman sacrifices himself to save Lois, Clark and Lois have a kid and name the kid "Bruce".

Wait so who exactly gets raped Bruce Wayne or Bruce Kent?

Both, to complete the metaphor.

So Bruce Wayne gets raped in prison and Bruce Kent gets molested by a babysitter or something? Bravo Snyder!

We need to combine all the things Snyder said didn't make it in along with the Snyder films and make a Snyder Super Extended Cut.

Martha Wayne survives being shot but goes into witness relocation without Bruce for some reason, and meets Jonathan Kent in Kansas and marries him.
Bruce Wayne is unaware of this and trains to become Batman, which involves him getting raped in a prison.
Bruce Wayne becomes Batman, sometimes may have a kill or two but it's self-defense or plausble deniability. Then he recruits Dick Grayson to be Robin.
Joker kills Dick Grayson
Jimmy Olsen is a CIA agent who is killed in BvS
Knightmare vision is the timeline where Lois is killed.

I forget what else.

None of them speak in costume since that's goofy so they just grunt and nod at each other and magically know what the other means. Also Batman kills a LOT of people but it's not a big deal to authorities because he doesn't really kill them he just shoots the gas tanks and the tanks exploding are what kills the criminals and that somehow mean he's not really killing them himself.

Pokemon is alive becuase you can win international tournaments with a decks under $300.

>Bruce Wayne is unaware of this and trains to become Batman, which involves him getting raped in a prison.
And then they wonder why you all get called retarded and that you can't understand basic elements in movies.

what the fuck are you talking about

Just because she was married to Superman. She adds nothing interesting to whatever story she is in. I wish Bendis would kill her and introduce another love interest, if nothing than more than because it would make you faggots mad.

The "Batman would get raped" wasn't what he'd do, it was him mocking Nolan fans that thought those movies were dark by saying "that's not dark! Rape is dark!"
He wasn't saying he'd do it he was just being tone deaf.

This is similarly taken out of context.
Snyder couldn't have them talk in costume for a specific scene with a specific dialogue homaging an Al Pacino movie. He wanted his Heat moment and didn't give a fuck if it fit, he just worked backwards and cut away from Batman and Superman until it did, similar to how Zod's death was worked from backwards rather than them questioning it.
It's still bad just for different reasons. It shows that making a film school student level reference was more important to him than anything else.

Snyder's enough of an edgy 13 year old with his skull and axe collection that we don't need to get stuff mixed up

>it was him mocking Nolan fans that thought those movies were dark by saying "that's not dark! Rape is dark!"
Then why did he say "That's something that would happen in my movie"?

>"That's something that would happen in my movie"?
That movie being WATCHMEN, a movie where being raped in prision was a thing, but even after people has pointed out that for over a decade retards like you still can't understand it

>That movie being WATCHMEN
But he was specifically talking about his take on a Batman movie

>But he was specifically talking about his take on a Batman movie
No, he was specifically talking about fucking watchmen, aka his movie.

Oh, look, Tommy Ladderbro's "upset" again.

>But he was specifically talking about his take on a Batman movie
No, he was talking about how Nolan's Batman compared to HIS MOVIE.

He specifically said Batman would get raped if it was his movie. He believes that it automatically makes it dark and therefore more adult like a fucking edgy teenager.

>Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go.
He meaning BATMAN would get raped in prison if BATMAN was in his movie. He wasn't comparing it to fucking Watchmen you idiots. He was saying that if Batman was in his movie then that's how it would go.
>He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that.
Is this talking about Watchmen too?

Honestly I'm not surprised tonight as daughter killed herself considering how bad he is at directing movies.

Imagine having someone direct your life in the shittiest way possible.

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>I disagree. The price of creative freedom is how you can’t please everyone.
Sounds so familiar to creating a movie that half the people love and the other half hate

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>Darkseid PERSONALLY goes into the batcave to kill Lois
Okay?

>And he goes, 'I think it's something more, something darker.'
>supes goes evil because muh lois
Injustice comics level of hilariously hack shit.

This is the saddest attempt at defending that I've seen today.

>If this was some kind of elseworlds spin-off no one would bat an eye.

Oh please.

Me too. Now I feel dirty...

Yes. You dumb manchild, he is talking about watchmen

It's true. Look at the new Joker movie. That is literally an Elseworlds not connected to the DCEU and while I think it's not a good idea to do a real Joker backstory, there's not a lot of screeching about it past it's initial announcement

You read this and you know this guy should have not touched Superman

Ah I see. Sorry I missed the Tibetan monastery ninjas in that movie you shitposting moron.

I'd watch it, cant say I've cared about Lois in recent years (or not as much as when I was watching Adventures Lois and Clark) or that I'm not used to disappointments with these movies.

Thanks user, I'll definitely be going to hell now.

>Sorry I missed the Tibetan monastery ninjas in that movie you shitposting moron.
You dumb dumb fuck, he is comparing WATCHMEN to Begins, where 2 characters end up in jail. You are too stupid to watch capeshit, so please stay away from printed media, it's clearly too confusing for you.

BvS ending with Lois dying would had literally killed Yea Forums. It would had been pretty cool

>Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go.
Learn to read you moron. If he was directing the Batman movie, then he wants the monastery and the ninjas plus the rape.
> If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go.
He didn't say that's how it went in my movie. He said that's how that would go. Meaning, you retard, if he had any say in the movie, he would do the monastery, ninjas, and rape in it. You colossal fucking moron.

Why has nobody brought up how he said he wanted Martha Wayne and Martha Kent to be the same person initially, thus explaining the "MARTHA" scene?

You're all aware this has nothing with INJUSTICE and is pretty much the plot of the JL movie that was going to be made before MoS was done, right? The Will Beal's script. Go look it up. This isn't even Zack Snyder's idea, but a recycled plot. Warner Brothers always do this type of shit. Reworking old plot into new movies.

>Learn to read you moron. If he was directing the Batman movie, then he wants the monastery and the ninjas plus the rape.
I know you are a manchildren that doesn't read anything without pictures, but there's a context, and the context was talking about watchmen, feel free to post the rest of content of that interview, i don't expect educated people in this board, most of you are monolingual americans, but that's not a good justification for actual retardation, it's been 10 years of people correcting you and telling you that he was talking about how watchmen (his movie) compares to Batman begins and people calling anything that isn't a live action cartoon "dark".

Yes
Because it was never that important, it was a really old Goyer idea that Snyder and Terrio played around for like one minute, it wasn't more than that.

The time traveling they wanted to use was really nice.

He was the one who brought up the Dark Knight. He is also talking about how if he was to make a "dark" Batman movie, he could have Batman raped in prison. It's pretty clear cut. He brings up Batman, talks about the Batman movie, then says if it was his movie, then that could happen. He gets raped in prison. That's it.

I wish that movie was made. It seemed like the JL/JLU, but in live action form.
Either way, Yea Forums is being dramatic about Snyder over nothing. If we're all aware that this is the a reworked versionf of the old JL movie plot then we also know that the future grimdark future is only flavor. Lois doesn't die, Superman isn't controlled by Darkseid, the heroes manage to avert the grimdark future thanks to future Flash's timely warning (who dies), and then the JL team-up with several armies - amazons, Green Lantern Corps, and so on - to fight Darkseid off. The grimdark future is pure flavor.

half loving it is being generous

If it was using the Snyder's BM and SM then no way it would be anything like JL/JLU.

Of course it would be different. In that script Batman and Wonder Woman are married, have a son named Clark Wayne, are leading the Suicide Squad as freedom fighters, Lex Luthor is helping them travel back in time together with Flash, and Batman is murdered. Then the future Flash dies when he goes back in time to warn everyone that Darkseid wants to kidnapped and corrupt Superman. Future Lex Luthor also reveal to his present self, somehow, that Superman is Clark Kent.

So i feel that lots of things would have changed, but the similarities are still huge.

>Either way, Yea Forums is being dramatic about Snyder over nothing
I think him saying stuff like "you lost your virginity to my movie" and revealing more and more details just keep pushing the fact that he wasn't the right guy for a cinematic universe.

Yeah, it was "the empire's strikes back" tier. It sounds really interesting.

I'm talking about the characters themselves. His versions are so far removed from who they were in JL and JLU that you could call them Jim the Flying Man and Bob the Bat and completely remove the similarities with the DCAU.

Snyder speaks retarded. Everyone knows this.

>"you lost your virginity to my movie"
Well, did you?
Or Shazam

What about Shazam?

I was talking about the original script. Back in 2011, before MoS was released, Warner Bros was going to make a Justice League movie - for the second time. The script was being written by Will Beal, a screen-writer and director that was about to release a movie he wrote and direct about gangsters or someshit starring Ryan Gosling. The movie was never done because MoS was made and Beall's movie, Gangster Squad, bombed hard. So WB decided to build their cinematic universe upon MoS.

Anyway, the script was basically the JL/JLU. You had Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Green Lantern (John Lantern), and Flash (Barry Allen). There were several callbacks to the DCAU cartoons. So just like what Snyder has described, the movie dealt with the idea of Darkseid corrupting Superman, ala STAS finale, and Superman fucking everyone over creating this Mad Max-like future. But everything is averted with time-travel.

People it's just bitching because it's snyder.

You're being far too generous. I would say three-quarters of the devout Star Wars that actually continues to watch this sci-fi children's franchise and the ones most likely to watch a film multiple times hates TLJ vehemently. Hell, Solo suffered a huge hit on the box office, simply because Star Wars fan were that pissed, even though I heard many of them who did watch it said it was better than Rian's film.

Yeah. Figured that out. Bitching about Snyder is Yea Forums's favorite pass-time.

Cool can we get over that fucking poison now?

Fucking Moore.

Reminder that Ryan Gosling was going to play the Flash in that movie. Oh, well.

>which is really just Kingdom Come gone wrong,
Everything goes wrong in KC, though, and the end is terrible but played as a happy one. Despite, you know, being all fucked up.

There's a lot of old JL scripts they were planning back then though

I know of three.
George Miller's Justice League: Mortal. Which is just OMAC with extra edge.
One really weird focusing on Superman and Batman with some extra JL characters in there.
This, which was Will Beall's JL. I don't remember if they gave it a neat name. It's pretty much a bunch of DCAU plots put together.

Imo I don't see how the Justice League can move forward without making some version of this story.

That would sound amazing if it's a different director
Of course we would because he ruined what could have been. It's perfectly reasonable to react this way.
>The 50-year-old director also talks about how Superman would "pull your arm out of your socket" if he grabbed you. "People call me a superhero, but I don't even know what that means," Snyder's violent, imagined Superman says. "I just blew this guy to bits!"
No matter how good the script is, if the director himself does not get the idea of Superheroes then he'll always fuck it up.
>You could call it "high-brow" comics, but to me, that comic book was just pretty sexy! I had a buddy who tried getting me into "normal" comic books, but I was all like, "No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me." I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, "This is more my scene."
You can give him a script by Dini and Timm but if you allow him to make changes then he'll just add more violence or some shit. He just doesn't get heroes. He's the absolute wrong guy for the job.

>He needs a hobby.
But user, fostering this ridiculous cult of his IS his hobby. You should've seen the mentions of the guy who was reporting on the "Snydercon" (the name should also be a tipoff), full of people going crazy because they were "denied" this vision.

This is freaking Batman and Superman we're talking about. A Batman and Superman ft. WW movie in the biggest cinematic comic book age imaginable that could have led to a significantly more powerful DCEU. I think it's more weird that people stick up for him

>>You could call it "high-brow" comics
Yes user, people who get into comics reading heavy metal see capeshit as kiddie shit. Stop being butthurt.

I'm saying someone who doesn't like the material is the wrong guy for the job. All you want is sex and violence like an edgy teen. You're the wrong guy for the job Snyder.

Gunn just did it too

That's what anyone looking for an OC should do. Snyder made some OCs, named them after the Justice League, then got mad people didn't like it. He is really is a moron.

If you don't like comics and the first comics you like are Watchmen and DKR, comics that work because of the previous years of comic history, why the hell would you put that kind of person in charge of a whole universe? Don't try to take a kind of mature high ground when it comes to fucking superhero comics

Gunn is producing that movie, not directing it.

Aquaman still had slo-mo but not to Snyder levels

Kind of painful to watch Jenkins copy the Snyder style in Wonder Woman, maybe she'll drop it for the sequel

>This is freaking Batman and Superman we're talking about.
And that means there's a wider spectrum of spectations. Everyone has a different "muh", and that means some will like different takes exploring what they want to see and others just want live action cartoons. Others will say it's not West's batman or bitch about Reeve's. Normies think BvS was BORING and to serious, Yea Forumss complaints are the vocal minority of internet nerds and snyderfags are another minority that is pretty diverse. The movies were not liked by mainstream audiences but it has nothing to do with most of the shit Yea Forums bitches about
That was not what he was saying, he said that watchmen was his gateaway into mainstream comics. Believe it or not, it was the same for a lot of people in this board, i started with Asterix and Lucky Luke and then fantasy comics, i didn't start reading capeshit until i was 18 and figured out how to use CBRZ, watchmen (and TDKR) is for many (specially not americans) the way you get into capeshit comics. Snyder didn't grew up with Batman TAS on tv.

>comics that work because of the previous years of comic history
That's bullshit.

>Normies think BvS was BORING and to serious
>too serious
Yeah no, general audiences have no problem with serious superhero takes. Logan was literally the year after BvS. It's execution that matters. Also, if audience consider it boring and too serious that also reflects on the director's choices and character portrayals

Because WB were scrambling to get a Superman movie in production due to the Siegel/Shuster lawsuit, so Goyer hammered out a script fast and Snyder was the only one who wanted to touch it

Man of Steel is just the same as The Amazing Spider-Man in that way

Neither Watchmen or DKR would have just existed as stand-alone comics or something in the Golden or Silver. They are built off the backs of those ages before them. That's why they are so effective

>No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.
Oh that's not what he was saying? My bad then huh?

Different 'muh' sure. They all have similarities though. They're all heroes at least.

>They're all heroes at least.
Just like superman in MoS and BvS
Do you really need people to explain to you a simple quote?

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>Let's his father die
>Takes a fight from an empty farm to a crowded area
>Impales a guy's truck for personal reasons even though it's not the guy who has to pay for that
>Stops Batman from chasing criminals but FUCKING LETS THE CRIMINALS GO
What a hero!!
Yeah let's see you try to explain that pretty straightforward quote about him not liking "normal" comics because there was not enough sex or violence. I'd like to see what mental gymnastics you can come up with as a coping mechanism.

Well, I bet it was a case like Marvel where they told her to fuck off the action scenes and had someone else do them. Hopefully she'll have more leverage now and try something different.

>Attacks Batman when all he said was "I understand!" even though Batman wasn't harming him at this point
>Makes out in the middle of the carnage caused by his fight but doesn't even try to help anyone
>Just fucking STAND AND FLY AWAY after the bomb, not even looking for any injured people needing help
Truly inspiring

I wonder why they had that big action scene of Bruce mowing down guys in the Batmobile going after the Kryptonite when he was just gonna steal it off-screen later anyway. It's like have one or the other

Is easy to enjoy capeshit if you start reading capeshit as a kid or have nostalgia over the characters, it's not if your first comics were fucking heavy metal. If your first comics were hellboy and Corto Maltès you won't get into Geoff Johns garbage easily, not without Watchmen introducing you into capes

>"No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me." I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, "This is more my scene."
Watchmen as your first cape comic? Terrible idea but ok. But if the reason why someone liked it was the sex and violence, then what makes you think that person would be interested in regular cape comics after he already said it wasn't doing anything for him because of the lack of such?

He singled out the sex and violence in his statement as the reason why he can't get into normal comics. That's literally what he fucking wants hence edgy teen.

>Watchmen as your first cape comic?
That was LITERALLY Snyder's experience, he got into "normal" comics thanks to watchmen. He isn't saying that capeshit needed sex, he was saying capeshit comics were in his eyes BLAND.
If you are autistic sure, i get it, you hate the guy, but you are the ond that sounds retarded when you don't get what he is saying.

>not without Watchmen introducing you into capes
Holy shit, this is awful advice. The other stuff you said wasn’t correct, but this is just flat out wrong. It only exists in the context of capeshit, without that background you’re basically just looking at pretty paneling. People read different things to scratch different itches, you read capes for a comfy soap opera, you read 1800’s sailing stories to learn more about a period of history, if you cannot understand the appeal of a genre it simply isn’t for you.

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So what about that contradicts what I said? You're just paraphrasing my point. He doesn't like it (bland) because there's not much sex and killing in it. So you have a director who is tasked to make a bland (in his eyes) capeshit movie. What do you think he's going to do to make sure his movie doesn't come out bland? It's ok to ask others if this is too hard for you.

Why are capeshit comics bland in his eyes user? What did the edgy teen say was lacking about it that made it bland?

If he is literally saying he couldn't get into normal comics because it didn't have enough sex and violence and wasn't mature until he read Watchmen, what the hell else are we supposed to take from that?

>If your first comics were hellboy and Corto Maltès you won't get into Geoff Johns garbage easily, not without Watchmen introducing you into capes
>not without Watchmen introducing you into capes
Are you actually defending someone only getting into comics through Watchmen and believing that to be the best and only medium to tell superhero stories

That's literally what I've been trying to get out of him user. but he keeps saying I don't understand the statement then just paraphrases what I've been saying anyway. He's coping.

>So you have a director who is tasked to make a bland (in his eyes) capeshit movie. What do you think he's going to do to make sure his movie doesn't come out bland?
In that regard, this is why the studio is also at fault for hiring him in the first place

That's my point! He's the wrong guy for the job because he's just an edgy teen who doesn't get Superheroes!

No you idiot, i'm not defendinf anyone, i'm just saying that he was talking about his personal experience with the comics he liked and watchmen, nothing more. It's autists being defensive of their comic who want to read more into that statement.

Where exactly did I read more in the statement? He says he doesn't like regular comics because not enough sex and killing. I said he doesn't like normal comics because he is thinks like an edgy teen who likes sex and violence. Tell me exactly what about that is wrong? Or did your cope bubble finally burst?

Snyder have said before that the reason he likes Watchmen is because the comic was beholden to the usual trappings of the status quo and explored the real-world ramifications of the genre, which he finds interesting. He says that characters purpose, morality, and rules mean nothing if they aren't put to the test. The characters simple become a static propaganda who exists to tell an empty morality lesson. So he likes stories that almost break the characters. Because he likes to question things and see what makes characters tick.

That's what he means when he says that comics like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns made superheroes grow up. Because it challenge the perception of superheroes. It made you as a reader question them.

>He says he doesn't like regular comics because not enough sex and killing.
He didn't. But go ahead autist

>No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.
Ok I'll break it down to you like a child since you seem to be incapable of advanced thoughts
>This isn’t really doing it for me.
You see kids this statement means that he doesn't like the material. Sometimes adult use the words "not doing anything for me" to imply that they don't like something
>No one is having sex or killing each other.
You see he said this statement before saying the second one because this statement is the reason why he feels that way. The statement "No one is having sex or killing each other" is connected to the "Doesn't do anything for me" because it's the reason for it. So to recap. No sex and killing -> doesn't do anything for him. This means that he dislikes it because there's not enough sex and killing. Write this down so you can read it again when you get confused. Any questions?

Did you just turn off your brain?

That's what everybody takes away from Watchmen and DKR. The thing is, you cannot use that as your basis for big established characters for films costing millions of dollars to reach the general public, let alone an expanded universe

Well, Snyder did. The madman.

And he executed it very poorly

Opinions diverge.

>Bruce says, 'I was right here, and Barry Allen came to me and he said 'Lois Lane is the key.' And then [Wonder Woman] goes, 'She is to Superman; every heart has one.' And he goes, 'I think it's something more, something darker.'
This is the exact moment where I stop giving a shit about anything Zack Snyder has to say.

Well his characters seem to do things just to move the plot forward instead of doing what they actually were supposed to be doing. You also can't question a character's morality and rules if you don't bring the character himself to the "real" world and just create OCs with the same name instead.

>instead of doing what they actually were supposed to be doing.
What were they supposed to be doing, pray tell?

>Well his characters seem to do things just to move the plot forward
It's a revange tragedy, of course they don't. The movie is bad, but that's a non-criticism from people that is too used to all stories being the same type

What part of Eltingville is this?

I'm not talking about what they should be doing in terms of characterization but in the sense that they don't feel like actual characters at all. Just pieces made to do things to get to the action scenes.

The biggest issue for me was the BVS fight, he tells Lois that he's going to talk to Batman not fight him. He gets there, says "You don't understand!!!". Then Batman proceeds to attack him with stuff that doesn't even hurt him and screams "I understand!!!" back. Then Superman attacks him. They looked like retards. They only fought each other because the title said they would. There was not even any attempt at communication.

Another one is Batman chasing criminals with freaking rocket launchers. Superman lands on his Batmobile, threatens him, and flies away. The guys BM is chasing just get off free. It's just there to look cool.

Also there's the bomb part. The actual Superman would be horrified and would try to help in whatever way he can, looking for survivors, injured, etc. He just emotes then flies away. It's all imagery with no substance.

Plus him letting his father die shows that the movie is not questioning Superman's morality and rules but is establishing a completely new character. Which defeats the purpose of asking what would Superheroes be like in the "real" world when the main character you have isn't the Superhero in the first place.

You know what doesn't? Financial returns

>Well, Snyder did. The madman.
And what's the state of the DCEU right now? Still going in that direction or doing the exact opposite and being successful?

>The biggest issue for me was the BVS fight, he tells Lois that he's going to talk to Batman not fight him. He gets there, says "You don't understand!!!". Then Batman proceeds to attack him with stuff that doesn't even hurt him and screams "I understand!!!" back. Then Superman attacks him. They looked like retards. They only fought each other because the title said they would. There was not even any attempt at communication.
You realize that both Batman and Superman had been super frustrated with things that were going in their lives, right?
>Also there's the bomb part. The actual Superman would be horrified and would try to help in whatever way he can, looking for survivors, injured, etc. He just emotes then flies away. It's all imagery with no substance.
That scene was cut out by the editor, without Snyder consultation.

>Still going in that direction or doing the exact opposite and being successful?
WB being reactionary and following the trend doesn't stop Snyder from doing what he speaks about with MoS and BvS.

>Also there's the bomb part. The actual Superman would be horrified and would try to help in whatever way he can, looking for survivors, injured, etc. He just emotes then flies away. It's all imagery with no substance.
Just watch the extended cut for fucks sake.

>WB being reactionary and following the trend
Snyder, and the rest of the DCEU, got into this BECAUSE WB was reactionary and following trends in the first place

I know.

Superman just had his mother kidnapped. He went there to ask for help. Attacking someone not doing any major damage to you does not do that. Also what is up with
>You don't understand!!
>I understand!!
>Fight scene
Then make him fucking understand. It doesn't even take 5 minutes to explain you're both being played by Lex. You really think that's believable dialogue? You're on a deadline and instead of hurrying and explaining so you can find your mother you have "You don't understand" as your only attempt at explanation?

Does it fix the rest? The dialogue before they fight, letting criminals go, letting his father die, destroying a truck for personal reasons, etc and all that?

Superman had his mother kidnapped, yes, but that doesn't do away with all the frustration he has been pushing down since MoS. Batman was being the aggressor, for obvious reasons, and that got to Superman. He felt the need to flex his muscles and put Batman down quickly so they could talk.

>He felt the need to flex his muscles
And this is the fucking problem.

No, it isn't. You're complaining about Superman acting human. This despite Superman being an easily angried hot-head in several comics and cartoons.

Batman was literally standing in his face that time. All he had to do was say Lex has my mother hostage and is manipulating us to make us fight. Why even start with "You don't understand" if you don't plan on explaining anyway?

A human would've tried to communicate with someone whose help he is trying to enlist. Or if the guy is being stubborn and wouldn't listen then find his mother himself. The fight went back and forth and during the moments where he had the upper hand he never even tried to explain what should have taken a few seconds to explain. This isn't even going into why he even needed his help in the first place? He just went there so there would be a fight since the title was BvS.

Superman went there because Lex Luthor told him to, but he didn't want to kill Batman. He just wanted Batman to stop so they could talk. It's just that Batman kept attacking him, and since Superman was already frustrated with himself, the media, the past, Luthor, Batman, and so on. He easily lost his cool and decided to stop Batman before they could talk.

>Does it fix the rest?
It has probably the best clark kent moments.

>Then make him fucking understand. It doesn't even take 5 minutes to explain you're both being played by Lex.
Bruce didn't care. He wanted to kill him, after that he could deal with Lex possible bullshit, as soon as the gas Kryptonite appears superman is fighting for his life

Ok think about these factors for a second:
>He had a time limit
>His priority is to find his mother
>Lex has no way of knowing whether Superman killed Batman
So the action he takes is to go and fight Batman? I thought he cared about his mother? He wasn't in a hurry? No matter how frustrated you are if someone has someone you love living on borrowed time that will always be at the forefront of your mind. Hence either try to get Batman as quickly as you can to your side or find your mother yourself. If Superman just left to go to his mother how would Lex even know?
The absolute last thing any sane being would do is go
>You don't understand!!
>I understand!!
>Fight scene
And again even during the fight he never tries to explain. This while his mom's time is running out. This is nowhere near any iteration of Superman, or any human being for that matter.

He attacks him way before that user. He starts the fight by pushing him. When Batman screams I understand in his face he was still being attacked by useless guns and shit. Just say that you're both being played that's it. Instead he attacks him.

This this this
This Superman is an asshole (and idiot who got hit with krytonite gas twice) who is lucky he called out his mother by her first name (and only her first name) that was coincidentally Batman's mother's name, or else he'd be dead.

>Superman went there because Lex Luthor told him to
The second he does this, he proves both Lex and Batman right in their paranoia about him.

Lex isn't even monitoring either of them and he still goes there

>Hell, that's not any darker than the stuff you see in Infinity War.
I don't disagree with your take on Snyder's movies but Infinity War isn't a reference, almost no character build happens in this movie (you're supposed to have seen all that character build in all the movies before, as if 20 movies was the same thing as a season of a tv show).

>Snyder have said before that the reason he likes Watchmen is because the comic was beholden to the usual trappings of the status quo and explored the real-world ramifications of the genre,
That doesn't even sound like him.
It's probably way more likely he said he likes it because the people in watchmen fuck and break bones and you're trying to reword it so that it sounds smarter.

>almost no character build happens in this movie
Except for the main character

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>Logan is the only exception.
Logan, while executed very well, is one of the simplest movies the subgenre has seen in a very long time. There's almost nothing cutting edge, super smart, or big IQ about Logan except for its execution, really.

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I can’t believe there are dumb faggots on here STILL defending BvS and the retarded forced fight that consumed the entire plot

Snyder totally could have just used Supreme Power.

It's almost literally what he wanted to make.

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It's a great movie. Suck it.

And you’re a sad contrarian fag who only exists to argue about this stupid movie. Get help

So great it almost killed the franchise, got the director fired, made the company do a complete 180 on the direction of the franchise, and killed any goodwill towards it's characters, making sure there wouldn't be any movies for those two specific characterizations in a long while. Absolutely amazing.

I'm not the ones always creating threads about it. I like the movie and very rarely watch it, because i've already seen it too many times. I only post occasionally about it when i see threads like this one where OP and a bunch of fags cry about it as if Snyder had murdered their cat.

So its exactly what people thought, Lois dies and Superman goes full on edgelord. Why is this news?

I don't care about the corporate side of things. There are many great movies that failed with the public and critics at the time of their release, and resulted in a terrible fallout for the director and the studio. Still those things doesn't stop those movies from being great. I feel the same about BvS.

Because Lois doesn't die and Superman is prevented from going edgelord.

Different people have different tastes so what's shit for a lot of people may be great for someone. I accept that. I'm just glad it's dead and hope we get a proper Batman and Superman someday.

Except people only post when Snyder gets jealous of someone's success and tries to put himself in the spotlight again. Then you retards come out and defend him.

>Except people only post when Snyder gets jealous of someone's success and tries to put himself in the spotlight again.
Dude, you sound like a butthurt ex that hasn't moved on from being dumped.

How dare you compare this to something like The Thing? Hop in that time machine, see if it pans out

Didnt' the critics say that Superman in Whedon's JL was Superman done right?

BvS already has a following. You've autists going #releasethesnydercut everywhere.

>I don't care about the corporate side of things
That's fine as long as you are talking about the films as individual movies but since we're dealing with a full cinematic universe here of established popular characters, the coorporate, as well as general audience, side of things matters a lot more

Maybe read his statements so you can see butthurt

Yeah like a dozen of them

Post them. Post his comments where he sounds butthurt about other people's success. Where he states names and movies that he hates because they're more successful.

Not to me.

Shazam is shaping out to be successful and out of the blue Snyder ragetards about fans living in dream worlds not accepting his murder-batman and says that his movie took the audience's virginity.
>b-but it has to be specific! h-he has to specifically say he hates them I'm too dumb to r-read between the lines!
Ok user

Yeah like a SMALL handful of morons WB already forgot about.

Now now, if publishers were willing to print Frank Miller's vision of Robocop 2, who are we to deny Hack Snyder this opportunity?

The ones creating these threads all seemed to hate Snyder and his movies, though. So you narrative doesn't make a lot of sense.

But there's no name value in that, it couldn't compete with prestigious brands such as the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Suicide Squad or Ant-Man.

There's literally a snydercon now. BvS is a cult film, you can't argue that. This is why people call you delusional, you guys can't just say the movie sucked as a normal person, you create narratives out of the dumbest shit.

It's a response to him raging about the fans being too stupid to get his films

Now you're changing goal posts.

What even is the original goalpost?

It's pretty pathetic, he should just move on and make a movie outside of the genre if he wants to repair his shitty reputation

You saying that Scott Snyder is hating on popular movies because reasons, then changing the narrative saying that are his fans that are hating on Shazam, than changing the narrative that the threads are indeed being made by his detractors over his dumb comments. You're spinning plates, mate.

>It's a response to him raging about the fans being too stupid to get his films
They are. There's people that still think lex tried to frame superman in the desert

>Suicide Squad
That should've been the movie WB gave Snyder

Who the fuck is saying anything about his fans hating Shazam or Scott Snyder. I said people post about Snyder when he tries to put himself in the spotlight again. Then his fans go in those threads to defend him. What the fuck are you talking about?

They can't tell bait from people that just dislike the qupip movies. A lot of people hate the actor and others hate Johns.

Yeah that's the only problem about that movie right? Not everything else in this thread? If only people knew Lex wasn't framing him they'd know how awesome this movie was.

>Yeah that's the only problem about that movie right
No you idiot, i'm pointing out that the movie was too smart for the ones that claim retarded shit like that. You are a complete imbecile who can't understand what he reads. I believe the movie was shit, i never implied otherwise, but your autistic tribal mentallity makes you jump into unrelated shit.

You said in this very thread that Snyder hated on popular movies, when this isn't the truth. That's something in your head. When i called you on it, you changed your tune and said that his fans were the ones hating on popular movies, and when i called you on it you admitted that the threads are initiated by his detractors being pissy.

And all of these clickbait articles being posted over and over again by stupid autists angry at Snyder were done because Snyder recently was invited to a charity function that he helps where they exhibited his movies and had an Q&A with him.

No you said Snyder was right that viewers were too stupid to get his movie, which is false. It's understandable it's still just shit.

No I said Snyder raged because of movies like Shazam getting praised while he's getting shit on. This is why he feels like he makes a statement because he wants to be on the spotlight again. I never said anything about fans. In my very first post I already said the threads were started by the people reacting to his statements wtf.

He already directed Sucker Punch, why would he want Sucker Punch but with only one Harley?

>No I said Snyder raged because of movies like Shazam getting praised while he's getting shit on.
You're still wrong.

Most anons really can't understand shit that happens in BvS.

>No you said Snyder was right that viewers were too stupid to get his movie,
How is that false if 3 years after people still makes stupid questions >No I said Snyder raged because of movies like Shazam getting praised while he's getting shit on. This is why he feels like he makes a statement because he wants to be on the spotlight again.
No you imbecile, he was talking in a Con that was all about him, he was just talking, he doesn't care about shazam at all you dumb shill. His mind doesn't revolve around capeshit, Snyder cares only about his OWN work and HIS own capeshit.

Sure he just brought this shit up out of nowhere because he was bored right?

Oh here we go again, the Snyder fanboys come out saying "all the haters were too dumb to understand the movies".

No you morons, we understood he movies, and he discovered that it was a giant pile of shit. But if you think a piece of shit is smart, then more power to you buddy.

No, because they invited him to a charity, exhibited his movies, and then people asked him shit about it after the exhibition.

Are you like one of those retards that believe Alan Moore is constantly bullying DC out of spite?

Every time there's a thread about MoS or BvS you guys show how dumb you are. I don't have to prove anything. I know in a few hours there's going to be another dumb thread about Snyder, either here or in Yea Forums, and the thread will be filled with dumb people complaining about the simplest aspects of the movie denouncing the fact they couldn't understand shit.

>we understood he movies.
Clearly not, since people still don't understnd what is happening in BvS a moron this week was saying that Lex's mercenaries burned the bodies so it would look like Superman's heatvision

Maybe there are some retards in there but most people understood it just fine but still think it was shit.
He was just talking in a con and he got mad saying people who don't like Batman killing have to wake up and are living in a dream world. He's frustrated because general audiences think his movies are shit. He's still clearly hung up on it and he really believes he's right and audiences are wrong.

>You’re dumb!
It’s a broken record with you guys

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So we're just gonna talk about hypotheticals then? Not about the unaddressed complaints in this thread? Well if it helps you cope sure

You know there was really no reason why Clark couldn’t just save his mom himself. He hears and sees fucking everything on the planet, and is faster than a speeding bullet

>He was just talking in a con and he got mad saying people who don't like Batman killing have to wake up and are living in a dream world. He's frustrated because general audiences think his movies are shit. He's still clearly hung up on it and he really believes he's right and audiences are wrong.
He was talking about people taking the comics status quo seriously and not waking up to the fact that it is pure bullshit. That Batman, doing what he does, wouldn't be able to not kill someone. That in movies you can explore things you can't in comics.

>BvS is just too smart for people

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Zack Snyder said that there was a script scene with Clark trying to find his mother's heart-beat, but in his distress being unable to locate her. He'd shuffle from several heart-beats and hear all types of distress, which would leave him more miserable and desperate, and so he'd decide to not lose any more time and head to where Batman is.

The idea being that ever since he started dating Lois, he ended up neglecting his mother a bit, focusing more on being aware of Lois' heart-beat than that of his mother's.

Yeah that sure got across by him throwing a temper tantrum and calling people who don't like it babies. His argument falls the fuck apart by the simple fact that Nolan put out the most no-fun-allowed, hyperrealism anti-comic silliness adaptation that Batman had ever had, and was still able to easily make audiences buy that Batman doesn't kill.

Except that this has been exposed in comics. He even singles out the killing as the bullshit part when fucking everything is.
>Dress up as a bat billionaire and not have anyone know who you are
>Master all martial arts
>Work in the morning get beat up at night and do it again the next day
>Adopt boy the same day Batman gets a sidekick
>Lose boy the same day Batman loses a sidekick
>Fight against beings like Darkseid and shit
All ok
>Uses his martial arts expertise to not kill
WTF Wake up! You're living in a dream world!
It's all a dream world user. And it's supposed to be about heroes.

Yeah that’s no excuse for the x-ray Vision, and irrelevant because it never made either cut. So yeah Snyder is a fucking moron obsessed with this stupid fight instead of a good script

>, I just don’t like the idea of directors/writers/artist/whathaveyou conforming to audience desires over their own vision.
Then stop consumming fucking hollywood cgifests. If you want to watch movies with 200 million dollar budgets about capes punching each other, you will get commercial art and you will enjoy it.

You know my favorite Snyder defense force topic is them desperately trying to find excuses why Diana couldn’t use the spear on Doomsday all boiling down to “b-but the lasso!”

>Maybe there are some retards in there but most people understood it just fine but still think it was shit.
And that's fine, i don't like the movies either, i just believe that not muh arguments are not the reason why they are shit.
>He was just talking in a con and he got mad saying people who don't like Batman killing have to wake up and are living in a dream world. He's frustrated because general audiences think his movies are shit. He's still clearly hung up on it and he really believes he's right and audiences are wrong.
He didn't got mad, he mocked the idea of people losing their shiot over fantasy daddies. Snyder see characters as tools for art, he made an entire movie focusing on how the world SEE superman and projects their expectations into the character, and the reaction of the public was ironically pretty in tune with what was in the movie. The issue is not Batman killing, is that there a FOCUS on batman is killing people (as in the movie is seen as a bad thing). Civil war starts with Captain American landing on and killing a sentry, but there's no focus, no weight, Batman acts as a brutal vigilante with music that doesn't "light" the humor, in unapologetic and pretty cruel. There's no cartoon physics in this movie, and at no moment it's seen as a good thing, Batman is the main badguy. Mocking people triggered by that is fine. Moore and Snyder are on the same page, it's not that capeshit needs to be "edgy", it's just that it's retarded to think EVERYTHING that can be done with characters should be inside guidelines, for snyder Movies can do shit that comics can't and he is right, MUSIC does affect how you take information. If the movie had this soundtrack people would had bitched less.
youtube.com/watch?v=LfkmwgU9E_U
Even in the comics it's canon that Clark hates gotham becuase everything is coated in led, such a fucking shithole.

>and was still able to easily make audiences buy that Batman doesn't kill.
Batman killed in all three movies, and simple pretended it didn't count because reasons.

>the spear
The fucking spear. Why Lois picks it up and tosses it into water is inexplicable.

>Yeah that’s no excuse for the x-ray Vision
LEAD.

Totally ignoring the fact that Diana could just let go of the lasso and beat Doomsday 1on1 like she just did a few seconds before that. The only issue was the dude regenerates and is immortal. Give Diana the spear and that fight is over.

>How Zack Snyder fanboys see themselves

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Why is this an issue at all other than the fact that you dislike the idea of Superman spearing the fuck out of Doomsday?

>superman
>letting someone he doesn't know risk her life
>not knowing her powers
>not knowing if she is capable of doing it
>not knowing if she can do it in the small timeframe the K grannades affecr the monsters
Are you guys retarded? Superman would never allow an stranger risk her life like that.

Why didn't Superman just say to Diana, spear Doomsday, she even said she has no problem killings thing. All he had to say was it's made of the same thing that weakens him so only Diana could do it.

Hell he could've asked Batman to do it considering how useless he was.

I dislike Superman dying preventable deaths

Nah, i know i'm pretty dumb and ignorant. I don't even think that the detractors that get things wrong are dumb. I just think that they never engaged with the movie and thus let their inattention and bias color everything that happens in it. That's what i tell myself, though. That they get it wrong because they weren't paying attention. Because the movie is really simple. Sure, it lacks exposition and the characters are mostly lying throughout the movie, but if you watch the movie seriously you can easily piece what the characters aren't telling with words.

Man, the Snyder worshipping was starting to really die down lately

Because then she can be the lady of the lake and get it back out because Excalibur.

Zack structures his movies like a Family Guy writer; around the references.

People only lost their shit because he threw an original character on the screen and called it Superman. It is totally a problem to do something like that because the character is already established. So you when you say you are going to make a Superman movie people are going to expect Superman in it, not Joe the Flying man and Bob the Bat. You can't just set OCs as the main characters in a cinematic universe. That's why people are mad. Because they were promised a DCEU and now it's all fucked.

There's a difference between tackling Harvey off a roof and mowing niggers down with machine guns

"people"
People found it BORING, "not muh" manchildren that want superman to hug them are not people.

It was always a minority, but a very vocal one. It's just they've learnt to shut up since they keep getting embarrassed every time they try to defend Snyder and his movies.

You're totally right. He has no idea what this woman who just beat up Doomsday and smiled after getting hit is capable of doing. Also it would be pretty stupid to communicate during a fight considering they wouldn't even communicate when not fighting right?

People watch Superhero movies to watch Superheroes. If they can't connect with your asshole character then they can't give a shit about him and the movie by extension.

He mowed Talia down with a machine gun.

>Everyone says that about "Curse Of Shazam." "Shazam!'s dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Shazam!'s cool." He gets to go on a train and be given powers by a Wizard. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get molested by the """Wizard""". That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go.

What did he mean by this?

Praising Snyder for trying reinventing the wheel is all well and good but the wheel is fucking square. Yeah the cart still moves but just because it's a new take doesn't mean its a smart one.

Wonder Woman wouldn't be able to kill Doomsday. She was barely holding him up with her lasso.

>Sure, it lacks exposition and the characters are mostly lying throughout the movie, but if you watch the movie seriously you can easily piece what the characters aren't telling with words.
Exactly, the movie is dense, but it's not deep. You don't need to be smart to "get it", but you are probably a moron if you fail to understand it. People is just so used to characters holding their hands that they don't suspect a character may lie.
That's kinda the point Snyder is making, it's not war if you say it's for democracy, and snyder isn't shying away from war.

But dismembered him in 1 on 1 combat beforehand. He just regenerated.

>He has no idea what this woman who just beat up Doomsday
Doomsday was getting stronger every fucking minute and had survived a NUKE. And no, SUPERMAN would not let a stranger risk her life if he can do it himself.

Yep, Zack and a portion of his fans mistake density for depth

>it's not war if you say it's for democracy, and snyder isn't shying away from war.
That doesn't make any sense at all, there's no argument here

Fuck Snyder fanboys

Why are you still so desperate trying to convince other that your directors and his movies are anything other than a dumpster fire?

As soon as he left DC made films with great reviews and made lots of money. That should tell you everything. Get out of his ass and stop defending him.

He threw her the fuck away and kept going, but now with a sword for an arm.

Think for a minute, please.

>As soon as he left DC made films with great reviews and made lots of money.
So all that counts is reviews and money? Why? So you piss on Marvel fans?

> Snyder's edgelording ruins any good ideas he has.

Yeah like how he went to save drowning Lois while leaving those 2 strangers to fight Doomsday behind instead of the other way around because swimming is more risky than fighting Doomsday

Yeah and now you have a weapon that can actually hurt him. Let's make sure that when he gets hit it's the guy whose also weak to it hitting him so it doesn't do max damage.

He's not going to let the woman he loves die if he can do anything about it.

You're right. It had to be him because I forgot they couldn't talk to each other.

Why would Superman give the spear to Wonder Woman and step away? That this sound something Superman would do?

> "Oh, no. I can't involve myself in fear of getting hurt. I'd rather let Batman or this wonderful woman handle Doomsday for me. Never mind that the creature represent all my failures and regrets. Let them deal with it, because i, Superman, shouldn't get hurt".

Give her the weapon and tell him you can't use it because it weakens you. Fight him barehanded while WW attacks with the spear. But yeah I guess he would have to step away after giving her the spear since it wouldn't be fair fighting him 2 on 1.

Let's see, a movie is successful if it has great critical and audience reviews, and this is reflected in box office results.

Zack Snyder made the worst DC movies. His movies mad less than any of the newer DC movies AND his movies have worse reviews than all of the new ones.

If his movies were so great, why didn't they make more movies? I'll tell you why: because they were bad. Accept it.

Pretty much all of the complaints directed at BvS boils down to:
>Something bad happened to a character i like, this shouldn't have happened. I hate it.
It's less people complaining about the movie being bad, and more being super-defensive of Superman and/or Batman.

Like it was said. There are tons of great movies that weren't well-received by the critics and the audience when they were released, but that eventually found an audience either because of home release of TV reruns.

A movie about Batman and Superman shouldn't and doesn't need to be edgy, grim and dark.

You don't understand! Real art is talked about.
That means if I force a meme it becomes art.

Also because they act less like characters and more like set pieces set up to move towards the fight scenes

Just because you can't understand what the characters going through that doesn't mean they're set pieces.

>and doesn't need to
Good
>shouldn't
Retarded, also there's nothing edgy about the movie.

Yeah they're set pieces

You make a correct statement, too bad it doesn't relate to Snyder's shitty fucking film since his characters are simplistic as fuck, just badly written and cursed to be presences within a sloggish and shitty film.

Again, just because you don't understand what the characters are going through, that doesn't mean they're simple set pieces.

What's there to understand? They don't act like people.

I disagree.

I'm just glad he didn't have Superman and Wonder Woman fuck.

How dare you.

Maybe you can explain then since you seem to "understand" them

>shitty ideas
"Edgy" Superman and a dead Lois is basically Injustice. The fuck are you talking about? People like you are the reasons why we got that abomination called Justice League. Just complete garbage because it tried to satisfy fanboys who enjoy reading the same formulaic garbage over and over and over and over ... (I should keep posting "and over" since you brainlets love redundancies.

But they DO act like people. Superman was frustrated for being a burden on people despite his best intentions,having his every action misconstrued by the media, learning about Batman intentionally doing the things the media accuse him off, his own regrets and guilty over what happened in Metropolis (and everywhere else), calamity following him everywhere, and then his mother being in danger. All of that boiled up when he went to talk with Batman and Batman kept hitting him. Superman being a bit aggressive with Batman there was totally justified when you account everything the guy was going through. It was a very human response.

So your complaint that Superman doesn't act like people is false. Just because you aren't taking into account Superman's state of mind that doesn't that his attitude was unwanted. If anything, he acted like a normal person who's been going through some major shit without any way to vent about it.

Anyone who watched the movie while paying attention can see this.

>there's nothing edgy about the movie.
It glorifies Batman mudering people, Snyder even admitted so.

Injustice isn't shitty? You've never read it have you?

>It glorifies Batman mudering people
No, it fucking doesn't. It condemns him for it. The fuck? The movie literally spell to the audience in the most hamfisted way possible that Batman had become like Joe Chill, the criminal that murdered his parents.

>But they DO act like people. Superman was frustrated for being a burden on people despite his best intentions,having his every action misconstrued by the media
A real person would've tried doing something about it before they got to the point of congressional hearings, especially in the era of social media.

I see so he just snapped and ignored that his mother was on a time limit then? Yeah it's a very human response to just ignore your dying mother because you've boiled over. Totally understandable. Especially when he keeps on attacking you without even a hint of hurting you. It's hard to just explain for 10 seconds that you need to save someone you know?

Also is that why he lets those criminals go and flies away after the bomb goes off? Because he boiled over?

user said elements of Injustice were "shitty ideas". The real question is whether you've read it.

I've read it and it's very entertaining but only because it's a train wreck

Also, the fight scene between Superman and Batman is literally Superman realizing that words won't stop Batman, only fists, just like the lady he interviewed in Gotham told him regarding Batman (that was shown only in the director's cut). This after Superman tried to resolve everything with words only to be met with failure - Perry blocking him from investigating Batman, Lex preventing him from testifying during the hearing, and so on. Superman had been silenced the entire movie and when he came to talk with Batman, but kept attacking him.

So Superman trying to overpower Batman in a moment of anger after all the frustrations he has gone through is a very human response. The only reason most people dislike this is because it's not Superman being perfect.

>I see so he just snapped and ignored that his mother was on a time limit then?
People will snap in moments of desperation. Like attacking a nurse when their loved ones is in need of medical attention and they feel they're being ignored.

Uh who condemned Batman shooting up people with the Batmobile? Infact nobody even cared

And then a word stops Batman dead-cold in his tracks. Pottery.

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Normal people attack nurses instead of looking for other options when the attention needed is immediate?
I see. You're right. When Batman said "I understand" then Superman realized that words won't work so even though the attacks weren't really doing anything he just won't try right? He just doesn't take the time to explain what would literally take less than 10 seconds to explain because why try right? Even if that's the reason you went there in the first place?

how about
>Also is that why he lets those criminals go and flies away after the bomb goes off? Because he boiled over?

Yes. Batman is literally wrong about everything throughout almost the whole movie. That's the whole point of his arc. You know who's right? Alfred. Alfred's literally Bruce's conscious, but he's ignored and lied to by Bruce throughout most of the movie. Just like Bruce is doing to his very conscious. Layers, brah.

>Normal people attack nurses instead of looking for other options when the attention needed is immediate?
People attack and berate medical stuff in moments of life and death situation all the fucking time. Have you been to a hospital? People lose their shit when their loved ones are in danger. Most can't remain level-headed. It's pure state of panic.

Exactly! And after his encounter with Superman he is redeemed and grows as a character. He even shows this in the warehouse when he kills those goons.

>>Also is that why he lets those criminals go and flies away after the bomb goes off? Because he boiled over?
Superman just saw Batman attacking people. To him, Batman was the one in the wrong.
Superman helped rescue people after the capitol bombing. The first respondes were scared to approach him. It's only then that he flies away in grief.

Ah yeah you're right. People go to the nurse and instead of explaining that they need help they just tell the nurse that he/she doesn't understand and attacks right away. Perfectly reasonable.

He only changes after Superman's death. Because he feels responsible for Superman's death and is trying to honor his legacy by being a better man. Nice try, though.

Moving goalposts

You didn't respond to my point about how nobody condemned Batman for his murder spree with the Batmobile.

I've seen it happen. Superman also was only trying to show Batman that he could overpower him easily, but that he wasn't there to do that. But Batman kept attacking him.

Alfred did, the Gotham Gazete had been condemning him from the start. It was just the greater media that didn't care about Gotham or the Batman situation, because according to Perry water's wet. That was to show how the media was biased and tends to only report on what is controversial. The people's needs are secondary.

Batman cared so much he wanted to sacrifice himself in the sequel. For fucks sake.

So people randomly attack nurses without explaining why they need them then? Sounds less like normal people and more like lunatics. And yeah it was more important at that time to show Batman who was stronger instead of explaining why he needed him. His mom was in danger so clearly this was the time for muscle flexing not for explanations.

You have to remember that in order to be a Snyderfag you have to be a cynic (and the pretentious kind that insists they're a realist), so to them people acting irrational and stupid is the default setting and it's realistic for characters to be stupid and irrational.

Yeah and Batman wasn't known for going after criminals but after random citizens so how would Superman know that these armed men Batman was chasing were criminals. I see your point.

This explains a fucking lot. Then they claim it's human when no normal human would act like that in the first place.

A real person (Ones as supposedly smart as Clark and Lois) would've understood Superman's celebrity and idolatry, and hired a PR advisor.

Batman would be rightfully skeptical, but at least Superman's public image would've been developed.

Superman has nothing to say to anyone after the congressional hearing has a bombing, and basically broods until he's coerced by Lex into the titular fight. What a hero.

Superman in BvS was ignoring his own feelings of guilt over what happened in Metropolis and later the Africa incident, because he was telling himself that what mattered was what he tried to do with the best of intentions, not the terrible fallout perpetrated by other people's hands. Like Zod murdering tons of people or the African country's local government murdering the rebels. Superman was also using Lois as an escape. Secluding himself with her comforting presence whenever he was faced with criticisms in the media because it hit too close to his guilty conscious.

That's where his issues with Batman comes from, because everything he feels what the media and the congress is accusing him of, wrongly, Batman is out in Gotham actually doing it for real, but nobody cares to report on Batman, only Superman. Superman feels that isn't fair.

Later on after the capitol bombing Superman is overwhelmed by his own guilt. He start to acknowledge that he's indeed really guilty for all the terrible things that have happened. Even if not directly caused by him. He feels that his activities as Superman is perhaps making everything worse. That maybe he should quit.
That when he reminisce about his father's words (or sees his ghost, whatever). Where the message is, yes, sometimes when you try to do good some unintended bad things might happen, and yes, it will be your fault. And yes, it isn't fair, because you only wanted to help. But that's what it is. You have to shoulder the blame no matter how unfair it seems. Just count on your loved ones when things feel too tough. Use them as strength to weather these moments.

That's when Superman confronts his own guilt, accept his part in everything that happened good or bad, but doesn't give up. Decides to remain as Superman. Later on facing Doomsday as the embodiment of his shadow. And Lois is there to give him strength. Initially she was presented as his weakness, but ends the movie as the source of his strength.

Attached: BVS-29362r.jpg (4928x3280, 2.87M)

No, you just have to not be autist and understand that sometimes even Superman will wrong. Because he's fucking human, despite being from Krypton.

And again, the things he did based on those examples above are not anything a normal human being would do. Maybe an autist would but not a regular one.

I'm so tired of this fucking hack.
The problem Isn't that his vision was "too dark and smart", the problem is that he tried to deconstruct a concept, without constructing it in the first place.

How is you Superman going to be challenged and deconstructed when he was an edgy fuck from the get go?

Things like The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen work in comic books because you had LITERALLY decades of stories and characterization working as building blocks for the authors to deconstruct the concept of super heroes.
Snyder you aint got shit

No, those were very normal responses. People most of the time will ignore their own guilt, hide from criticisms that reminds them of their guilty conscious, and so on, specially if they feel they're not wrong and are in the right no matter what anyone says (despite feeling the contrary). People will also act irrational and let their anger get the best of them in a most of desperation where every emotion is heightened. Superman wasn't even trying to kill Batman, he just wanted to show Batman he was stronger and could end him if he wanted. In attempt to stop him. Because he was desperate and frustrated. Because that's what other people told him could work. It's only after hit by kryptonite that he gets scared for his life and tries to defend himself with more effort. But that was Superman letting himself being carried away in a moment of desperation.

I get you.You didn't like to see Superman in that position. Seeing Superman doing terrible choices. It vexed you as a fan of the character. I understand you. But you can't claim Superman didn't act human in the movie. Everything Superman does in the movie are very human responses.

>when he was an edgy fuck from the get go?
He wasn't? Superman is shown caring for people and rescuing people from the first moments of MoS. Superman never stopped helping people, even if it costed him. Just because the movie doesn't open with him wearing a cape that doesn't mean he was edgy.

Not stated anywhere at all. Fuck your headcanon

In the scripted scene that was cut. Superman tries to use his vision, but the pollution and buildings filled with lead prevent him from seeing anything. He tries to pick her heart-beat, but keeps getting several distress calls because there's people in danger everywhere in Gotham. He ends up feeling more desperate by the second and then decides to head straight to Batman.
Executives told Snyder the movie didn't need this scene. It was too long and too dark. They could just cut to Batman and audiences would get that there was no time.

Retarded apologists really do have the gold mental in mental gymnastics to justify this crap. Because we really needed to do DoS and waste half of JL just to revive him. Go fuck yourself

>Superman wasn't even trying to kill Batman, he just wanted to show Batman he was stronger and could end him if he wanted. In attempt to stop him. Because he was desperate and frustrated
Then he should've yelled "SAVE MARTHA" from the get-go instead of posturing exactly like the asshole Batman thought Superman was. Batman was right to kill this Superman, and he should've gone through with it. If Snyder really wanted to make something poignant, then the tragic murder of poor misunderstood Kal would've been it.

The dude is right in front of you. In your face. He isn't affecting you in any way so the ball is entirely in your court since you're both just standing there. Your mother only has an "hour" to live. You can't say "Dude we're being tricked he told me to kill you but he has my mother hostage"? You really think people would start punching? That's human to you? And on the multiple instances where he has Batman on the ropes he never tries to explain? Never? Not even once? Not after all the time they've wasted not saving his mom? This is human? Human would be if the entire purpose you were there in the first place, YOUR MOM'S LIFE, would be your priority. Not the fight just because it's in the title.

I wasn't gonna bring this up but I guess if a human is invulnerable and his dumbass dad is dying then it is human to just watch him too then? You're not gonna feel any emotion and do something emotional since you know you're invulnerable anyway? And I guess rescuing armed criminals from Batman is human too?

He is anything but human in this movie. He exists to fight Batman and everything he does moves towards it.

Nah, you're just stupid and want to nitpick the dumbest shit. You're arguing that Superman shouldn't try to stop his villain, the embodiment of his failures, and instead let Wonder Woman deal with it. All because you hated the idea of something bad happening to Superman in a movie. Even if as consequence of a heroic action.

Just stop to think about it. Just for a sec.

>In a scripted scene that was cut
Then it’s irrelevant. 2 fucking cuts of this movie, and it didn’t make either. That’s how fucking stupid this script was. So no, for all intent and purposes there is no lead, so this is still a forced ass plot device just to get Clark to fight Bruce. Fuck off

>Nah you’re dumb
>Common sense is nitpicking
Like. Fucking. Clockwork. You people really are mentally ill

Re-watch the scene. Batman attacks Superman, Superman gets near him and push him twice. Batman attack him with fear toxi mixed with kryptonite. This is important because it puts Superman more crazed. Superman tried to defend himself, but now he's powerless and fearing for his life. Superman gets his powers back and throwing him around. Batman gets the best of him.

Not that guy but are you kidding me I wanted this Superman dead. That was just an entirely retarded decision to hold on to something that makes you weak when you have a fucking warrior who could put it to better use. Give it to her and fight barehanded but don't be a fucking dumbass.

Common sense is realizing that the superhero letting another character deal with a problem created by him, the big monster in the movie, just because some autist doesn't want him to get hurt is dumb as fuck.

That's what I was fucking talking about. Batman says "I understand" then Superman fucking attacks him. They were face to face! Explain your fucking shit if that's what you're there for!

Superman is no fucking coward, dude. You're literally arguing that Superman should have passed the job to someone else. Goddamn. Shifting the responsibility to someone else in a movie about owning the responsibility of your shit.

>Batman attacks Superman, Superman gets near him and push him twice
While pushing Batman he becomes mute instead stating his reason for the encounter because...?

Batman was mocking him.
He was trying to exert his dominance first.

Give the weapon to the one who can use it and fight him barehanded wtf. What part of fighting him barehanded is cowardly? They're fighting 3 on 1. Shit he even left in the middle of it to rescue Lois when he could have just asked useless Batman to do it in the first place.

He used the spear just fine, though. He has hands, you know.

So he stops explaining like a total dumbass? Aah yes the human thing that all humans do when asking for help, establishing dominance. Especially when you're in a hurry you have to do that first before explaining.

You're all literally crying about Superman dying in the movie now. This isn't even about the movie being bad anymore, but muh Superman getting hurt and this bothering you guys.

>He was trying to exert his dominance first
Batman should've exerted his dominance and murdered Superman for his hubris as Batman originally planned.

By flying really slowly and stabbing him weakly. He totally used that better than Diana
You keep ignoring the fact that this complaint is about him being a dumbass and not about him dying. I wanted all three of them to die in this movie which you would know if you knew how to read.

Clark was told that Batman doesn't listen to words, only fists. He was trying to talk with Batman and was attacked, then mocked. Superman in his anger attempt to exert dominance to show Batman that between the two he was clearly the strongest and the whole fight was a stupid endeavor. He thought Batman would understand THAT. It didn't work.

There's nothing wrong about Superman willingly sacrificing himself to put down Doomsday.

Why didn't Superman wait for the rest of the DCU heroes to come help him kill Doomsday in the comics instead of fighting it alone?

>Clark was told that Batman doesn't listen to words, only fists.
Then why didn't he just come in punching
>He was trying to talk with Batman and was attacked, then mocked.
So why can't he just talk if that's what he's trying to do? They were standing face to face and he hasn't even explained anything yet.

Of course not. That's what he did in Death of Superman. There is something wrong with him being a dumbass however.

He felt Batman wasn't willing to listen what he had to say and that he needed to show first that he couldn't win that fight. That if did that Batman would be more willing to listen - since Superman could easily kill him, but chose not to.

Superman was a dumbass in Death of Superman. The DCU is filled with heroes. Superman could have dragged the fight outside the city and escaped Doomsday long enough for other heroes to show up. Instead he decided to have a slugfest with Doomsday in a crowded Metropolis.

So Batman who was talking to him and standing in his face waiting for his move wasn't willing to talk? What do you think would have happened if he just started explaining there and then when the guy is just standing there? If you anticipate that he was not going to listen then why even go there in the first place? What could this dumbass do to even help?

Batman had shot him with several shit, was wearing an armor, and was taunting him. Come on.

He sacrificed himself there because there was no other way except in this scenario there’s several ways to fix this without him dying which you willingly ignore

Except Doomsday was attacking civilian helicopters and shit

The guy was standing in front of him. They were both looking at each other. If you really want help for your mom within the hour you would at least try to fucking explain are you kidding me. If you think this shit would last longer than that then you leave. Your mom's life is in danger what is this fight really gonna achieve? Batman shouldn't even know where Martha is in the first place.

No, there were several ways. You just overlook them because it is an iconic comic and you're trained to accept it. Superman could have led Doomsday out of the city, escaped most of his attacks while goading him on, and waited for other superheroes to show up. That didn't happened because the editors wanted Superman to die during a big slugfest in downtown Metropolis with tons of destruction surrounding them.
If people complain that Superman should have dragged Zod away, then the same applies. Superman could have attracted Doomsday attention to himself and led Doomsday far away from the city.

The guy was taunting him, and was seconds anyway. Superman just gave a push to knock Batman off his pedestal. He wanted to show Batman the fight was pointless, that there was no winning, and that Superman wasn't the bad guy because he could easily kill Batman but wasn't going to. He expected that Batman would power down so they could have a talk. Of course this was stupid, but Superman was angry.

Doomsday was attacking random targets while Zod was honed in on him.

Zod was attacking everything in his path, and when Superman tried to drag Zod up to the sky or away from the city, Zod dragged him right back down or back into the city. Zod was also smart and could fly. Doomsday was a dumb creature and could at most jump really high.

So your anger would override your panic over your mom's life? You know how you can show that you can easily kill Batman but you weren't going to? By not fucking attacking and explaining instead.

Ok I'll give you the final Zod fight. What about the one in the farm where he tackled Zod towards the town?

That's why he couldn't take Doomsday away because he was a dumbass who was just attacking anything in site

Why can't BvS defenders just accept they're wrong?

How deluded and have your head stuck in the sand to be to still think you're right even when you proved again and again to be wrong?

We're just going cyclical through this conversation now.
I feel that the situation was obvious. Superman was desperate and frustrated as hell already. Came to ask Batman's help, but was met with heavy artillery. Then Batman came lose while taunting him. Superman in his frustration and anger, and remembering what people have told him about Batman, attempt to quell Batman by throwing his weight around to show Batman that he was easily the strongest between the two, that the fight was winnable, and that the fact he wasn't dead was because Superman wasn't there for that. He thought, stupidly so blinded by his bias and anger, that Batman would stop in the face of this giving them the chance to have a proper talk.
You, of course, disagree for the reasons you already stated several times. We're going nowhere with this.
Oh no, Superman was a fucking dumbass during that moment.

Dude he freaking throws Doomsday away from Metropolis. Then Doomsday knocks him down and jumps towards the city anyway. Not to mention that during their fight Supes was still trying to rescue the civilians like the chopper pilots and those people in the cars.

Superman could have used himself ar a target and dragged them both out of the city. He could have kept luring and pulling back from Doomsday until other heroes showed up. Doomsday was dumb. He would have fallen for it.

He could have kept on trying. Why give up after a few tries? He's Superman. There's always a way.

Because the complaints you guys have are nitpicky at best, and dumb as hell at worst.

The moments where he acts like a dumbass are the reason why people hate him though. Because Superman is supposed to be a beacon of humanity and here he's not even a Superhero. Especially after Marvel at least shows that their heroes try. It's little things like that that would have made the movie better.

Also since we're going nowhere with that argument. Why could Batman have possibly helped him with? Considering this guy was dumb enough to get played by Lex?

For real, bruh, can't let that shit slide, got a rep to maintain. Who cares about kidnapped mothers when you can throw Batman through buildings. Even though there's plenty of opportunity to plead to Batman of the dire circumstances, let's casually heat vision some turrets first. Not Superman's fault Superman never learned how to deescalate situations, and has no means of restraining Batman and compel him to listen.

>Calling people, who thought BvS was bad, stupid

There it is again

>'Lois Lane is the key.' And then [Wonder Woman] goes, 'She is to Superman; every heart has one.'
Yeah that sounds like shitty, on the nose writing

He did. Except Doomsday kept attacking everything in site. He threw him away from the city, got knocked out, and jumped into the city anyway.
He wouldn't have died if he didn't keep on trying

They had all been dumbed enough to be played by Lex Luthor, because they let themselves be led by someone due to their own bias and personal frustrations with life and shit. It's a lesson.

This. It's human to care about your rep more than your kidnapped mother.

>Superman would succumb to the Anti-Life, right?
I thought a fully powered Darkseid with the Anti-Life equation was pretty much game over?

I’m not actually defending DoS Mind you. I’m merely saying it’s fucking dumb to try it in this movie given context

>He did. Except Doomsday kept attacking everything in site. He threw him away from the city, got knocked out, and jumped into the city anyway.
He hardly tried. In the end he started to match Doomsday punch for punch. That was stupid as fuck.

Yes so why go ask Batman's help? What could he possibly offer you when you're Superman?

Read the comic again. He keeps attacking Doomsday and Doomsday keeps on attacking random targets, making him have to go save some civilians again, which Doomsday would use to jump to another area and rampage there. Or he would attack DD and get knocked down at which point DD would just somewhere else again. He was out of options at that point.

low blow but k
if you are writing your original book, sure but if you are taking on a legacy story full of people waiting for you to deliver X then you should deliver X

It's about being angry, frustrated, and scared. Having to deal with a guy you already dislike. Then that guy attacking you, which pushes you over the edge. Superman was dumb, yes, but his response made sense. He thought the guy would listen to violence. That if he showed the guy he could easily kill him but that wasn't his intention, the guy would get it. That this was the language the guy would understand. He was wrong, of course, but it made sense in his perspective.

He could have tried harder.

He wouldn't have died if he didn't keep on trying

It would make sense if there was no time limit. It didn't make sense to fight when it did. But even if it did, he had the upper hand multiples times during the fight. Considering he's already lost a ton of time fighting, you'd think someone who cares about his mother would either start explaining at this point or fuck of to go find her himself. Considering his decision to go to Batman for help never made sense in the first place.

>It's about being angry, frustrated, and scared
Superman looked smug as shit, and none of the above

He thought he'd stop Batman with a single push, though.

meant for

what an edgelord, glad he got btfo

Yeah and when that didn't work
>he had the upper hand multiples times during the fight. Considering he's already lost a ton of time fighting, you'd think someone who cares about his mother would either start explaining at this point or fuck of to go find her himself. Considering his decision to go to Batman for help never made sense in the first place.
also this

Yes, and when that didn't work, instead of continuing to tell Batman of what Lex is doing, he shoves Batman a second time.
By now Superman should know what the audience does, and that Batman isn't intimidated, at all. But nope, he grabs Batman (finally), but it's to drive him through a building. I just love that this Superman is so eager to beat people into submission.

I got a question. Why did DumbMan make a kryptonite spear instead of bullets and why did he leave it on a random floor somewhere? Did he not see that Zod fight where they go everywhere when they fight? How can he be sure he will be within the general vicinity of the spear when the fight is almost over when you can't even be sure you'll be in the same city.

>Why did DumbMan make a kryptonite spear instead of bullets
Same reason you can't make bullets out of obsidian. Also the spear wasn't enough to hurt superman, you needed the gas first. Even if the Kryptonite didn't shatter when fired it would still brake on contact with superman's skin, bullets are too fast and can't weak him. If it was a real question you now have an answer.

>How can he be sure he will be within the general vicinity of the spear when the fight is almost over when you can't even be sure you'll be in the same city.
Everything he does is to trap superman, the weapons are to make superman believe he can't hurt him. To make him walk into the killzone. He is counting on superman not really fighting back until it's too late.

>Why did DumbMan make a kryptonite spear instead of bullets
Because Jesus didn't get shot on the side. It didn't need to be a bullet but some sort of projectile that allowed Batman to attack him from a safe distance, but Snyder needed the Jesus reference.
>why did he leave it on a random floor somewhere?
Because the movie need it that way, so it could justify having a few minutes of fight first instead of heading right into killing him, even though that's what Batman wanted to do.
Let the Snyderfags explain all that shit away, because Snyder certainly can't, and doesn't care. He'd probably just go "it's just a cool thing".

Retard.

>even though that's what Batman wanted to do.
You're dumb as fuck. Batman wanted to find catharsis tanking down Superman. Gunning him down wouldn't accomplish that.

>Let the Snyderfags explain all that shit away, because Snyder certainly can't, and doesn't care. He'd probably just go "it's just a cool thing".
Nigga, you've no idea. Lots of that come from Morrison's Asylum. The spear, the Martha thing, and so on.

How do you know this about Kryptonite? Metallo seemed to be able to make a bullet with it in JL:Doom
Then why did he leave the spear in a random place? Was his plan to run away until they got to the room? What if Superman picked him up and threw him in the other direction instead of barreling through him towards the spear? Wouldn't it be smarter to make knives instead?

Batman counted on the fact that he'd be able to bring Superman to the spear, instead of bringing the spear to Superman.

>but Snyder needed the Jesus reference
bingo

So this fighting detective genius was relying on a really stupid plan that gives him symbolism instead of just bringing knives or any portable weapon like a normal person would do?

Attached: Morrison being Morrison.jpg (2118x1128, 609K)

Just waiting for the next rumor yo start a new wave of deluded snydercut bs.

>Wouldn't it be smarter to make knives instead?
>just bringing knives
Snyder cheated us out of kryptonite machetes

As always, he simply transplanted things from one medium to another without even thinking how to make them work. Shockingly, they don't, just like when he did it on Watchmen.

>Batman wanted to find catharsis tanking down Superman. Gunning him down wouldn't accomplish that.
Yeah, because he's basically a moustache twirling Bond-tier villain, commiting every single retarded act of hubris, just to allow Superman to win. The funny thing is that this Superman is just too stupid to do it, so in turn he also commits every single contrived bullshit in order to make Batman's plans work and that's how we get over 2 hours of Batman and Superman being completely retarded until they just start punching each other.

Or a kryptonite dildo to stick up that faggot supes' ass

>those comments

There is no god.

>As always, he simply transplanted things from one medium to another without even thinking how to make them work.
He reworked it, or Chris Terio did, because i doubt Snyder would understand, and it worked. This shit just flew over your head.

This is just bullshit and you know it. It was closer to 3 hours of extreme retardation with stupid symbolism than 2.

The user already explained why Batman didn't shoot Superman with kryptonite bullts above.

Morrison placed that symbolism in a context where it worked. And it's not even that good a comic anyway, other than McKean's art.
Moore also wrote a brilliant comic with Watchmen, but when Snyder made it into a movie, it was shit. Quoting smart people doesn't make you smart, and even less so if you keep quoting them in the wrong contexts.

The symbolism also worked in the movie, idiot. You saying it didn't doesn't stop it from working. You just don't know how, i imagine. Seriously. You probably don't. But if i they you, you'll say that it was obvious and is dumb.

Yeah it really did work. When Batman left the spear in a random floor where the chances of the fight ending up there was very tiny it made me say that he really was a genius detective who was so smart that not only would he kill Superman, he would do it while making him look like Jesus. So smart and deep.

It didn't, because it needed plot to be needlessly contrived in order to introduce it. The whole "Batman counted on Superman not to tear his fucking face off" is complete bullshit because it still needs that by chance he gets to the spear at that moment, which in return needs for a lot of other possible outcomes not to happen.

The symbolism doesn't work when the surface level itself is dumb you moron. Why make a spear and make a convoluted plan that would take a lot of miracles to go through with when you can just bring a portable sharp weapon and get rid of external factors?

You guys are not even discussing the symbolism, but the chances of Batman calculating with precision that his plan would work and he'd be able to bring Superman to the spear.
>The symbolism doesn't work when the surface level itself is dumb you moron.
What is the symbolism?

It didn't because it made absolutely no sense that Batman would choose to make a spear out of Kryptonite, and even less so that he'd just leave it somewhere hoping he'll land near it at some point so he could use it. It was completely forced, as every single slo-mo montage that Snyder shoved in all of his movies.

We're discussing how it doesn't work on the narrative, because in order for the symbolism to be included, the plot becomes utterly contrived. Symbolism in fiction works when it's a vital part of the narrative, and it's intertwined with all the other aspects of the narration to the point where you can't separate it from the story itself. When it's just shoved in there, it doesn't, because you're telling a story first and foremost.

Kryptonite bullets would explode on discharge.
Kryptonite knifes would be super obvious and Superman would melt them.
Kryptonite gas was easier to make and helped weaken Superman, and kryptonite spear was even easier to make and Batman hid it so Superman wouldn't see.

No symbolism can be good if the surface level decisions leading to it is contrived and stupid. Then it just comes out forced since there's literally no reason for it to happen in the first place. You think Batman was in his cave thinkin "I can make a knife but... I need to do symbolism". That's extremely dumb.

If you can make it into a spear, you can make it into a projectile that allows you to attack from a safe distance. Specially with Batman's tech.
And if for whatever reason you come up with, it can only be a spear, you need to explain it in the movie otherwise it's just bullshit headcanon.

The spear was easier to make, Batman hid the spear so Superman wouldn't see it, Batman tried to lure Superman into a sense of safety and overconfidence, Batman used the kryptonite gas as his ace in the hole to weaken Superman, Batman planned to drag the weaken Superman to the spear. every move Batman makes during the fight is calculated to bring them to the spear.

The dude has a fucking cape and a ton of pouches he could hide it in. He could even make it pop out like fucking wolverine. But the spear that was "hidden" in an area that needs extremely contrived circumstances to end up makes sense?

The projectile would shatter upon discharge and even if it hit Superman's skin, it wouldn't that much damage because Superman needs to be weakened.

Yes. the spear made more sense, was easier to make, was symbolic significant, and Batman planned his moves well.

Then what about that time Superman dragged him and barreled him through walls? Did he calculate that too? Did he whisper in Supermans ear to run him through that direction so they'll end up near the spear?

>How do you know this about Kryptonite? Metallo seemed to be able to make a bullet with it in JL:Doom
Becuase this isnt a cartoon, sometimes Kryptonite is a beheaves like a crystal, others it doesnt. In this version it's a more meltable obsidian.

>made more sense
>easier to make
if your plan involves having to be at the right place at the right time when an easier plan that involves none of those factors is present then no, it does not make sense.

Batman calculated that he could die. That he'd be blown to bits with the first punch. He was already for any eventuality.

>Batman was in his cave thinkin "I can make a knife but... I need to do symbolism".

Attached: charly lol.jpg (150x150, 11K)

so he goes with the shittiest plan available because?

I really don't understand why that autistic idiot keeps talking about knifes, a spear will always be a better choice, his questions were not sincere, he didn't want an answer

Again, this is just contrived "character read the script" kinda bullshit that can only make sense if you engage in extensive explanations after the fact and not as the narration is happening.
Film is a linear narrative medium. You can have many things happening on different levels that might warrant re-watches and deeper analysis, but it's key that it all works on the first view because that's what you're going to get from most people. You can't turn back the page to re-read as with a comic or a book. Snyder just doesn't seem to know the difference between the mediums so he thinks that if he imitates things from classic works of literature, comics and paintings, that would make his movie a classic.

Considering we don't even know this and he could easily just make an arrow or something I'll just drop it since it's not really explained.
Now what about the spear?

You know that bullets aren't the only kind of projectiles, right? A fucking arrow is a projectile.

Yeah, I guess that's why we all still see spears being used all the time.

>when an easier plan
Did ever fight any kryptonian? Then shut up.

Explain how a plan that depends on the fight ending up in a very specific place is a better choice compared to a versatile plan that allows you to finish your enemy in any area you might end up. Especially considering the enemy is a kryptonian and you just saw this guy barreling from building to building (including yours) previously.
Are you incapable of thinking you moron? Do kryptonians end up in predetermined specific places when they fight? Man you're dumb

You pull a knife that weakens Superman, he's going to melt that shit. He won't even let you approach him.

Gas + knife like he did with the spear obviously. The only difference is now Batman can kill you anywhere instead of a very specific place.

>Considering we don't even know this
We actually do. We see how the material is being worked out, we know that the spear doesn't work without the gas, we know it flakes. We see that isn't metal. For fucks sake we even know it's not high on magnesium iron silicate. Spears are good weapons, regardless of how retarded your anime and JRPG's tell you. Knifes are a terrible choice, and "arrows" won't have the same piercing power or control that bruce has over the spear.

Why didn't he just take that spear and shorten the fucking handle to make it a knife? It could even be a shank or a small dagger. How is a weapon that you can use anywhere a terrible choice compared to one you can only use in a place you honestly would have no reason to believe you could get to?

Why are you so fucking obsessed with the idea of a knife?

A few shards on Batman gauntlets would've messed Superman up

You don't have a lot of reading comprehension do you? The argument is that a weapon that you can only use in an area you have no reason to believe you'll end up in is a fucking terrible weapon when compared to something you can carry with you. A knife is just an example. It can be a dagger, a shank, a sharp fucking dildo, it doesn't matter. The spear does not make a single bit of sense and the only reason why it was used was because of stupid contrived symbolism. Now go to bed. People who can understand sentences are talking.

>aquaman and wondie appear just to be killed a movie later
>cyborg becomes a talking head
>Darkseid wasted to kill Lois
>Superman loses his dad for a stupid reason, becomes a hobo, destroys a city, hated for everyone, killed by a monster, alive again just to lose his girlfriend and being cucked by the anti life
>Batman leading the cool badass resistance against Darkseid
>time travel is supposed to solve everything
Justice League was trash but this is beyond retarded

Attached: 1539965659619.jpg (309x346, 15K)

His tactic was to weaken superman with gas and then bring Superman there. It worked.

It's a future that gets few screen-time and is averted, dumb-dumb.

Batmas was the one supposed to be raped, duh

And it only did because Superman flew him there through a bunch of walls himself. Which is again contrived plot just to usher in the symbolism.

>Do kryptonians end up in predetermined specific places when they fight?
They usually do when they fight batman, lex, or anyone really. 100% comic acurrate
You clearly were just bitching, you were not looking for any answer that wasn't "cuz snyder dumb".

Well you can't even explain it so it is dumb.

Why should i repeat what others already said in this thread and you choose to ignore?

I've reputed every single one of your points faggot why don't you respond to mine and explain why it makes sense to use a weapon that can only be used in a spot you have no reason to believe you can get to?

Knives < Spears