So I read (most of) the first run of Spider-Gwen after getting interested in some of the alt-spiders seen in Into the Spider-Verse. And HOLY SHIT was this series mismanaged.
Like, it'd be one thing if it was straight-up BAD. If it was just bad, I wouldn't give a shit. But it's like there are so many goddamn interesting things they start building up, and so you start to get a little invested, and before you know it you're really into what's going on and just as things start to REALLY pick up-
By the time you get back to Earth-65 you've completely lost any investment in what's going on. And this is my experience reading the TRADES. I pity those of you who had to wait a MONTH in-between each of these.
Like there was this time where I think Bendis took over and made them do 3 issues of what was essentially just a Miles Morales X Gwen thing? Yeah, really. Only saw the tail-end of that, but what I saw... wasn't good. I can't imagine how much all these fucking side-stories fucked up the pacing for the people at the time. No wonder most people dropped.
Like, there are a lot of actually interesting things going on in this comic. Like just in the last couple of issues: >The Kingpin of Earth-65 is MATT FUCKING MURDOCK and is an AMAZING villain. >Gwen actually decides to KEEP her symbiote because she reasons it's just trying to help her and feels responsible for essentially force-feeding it negative emotions throughout the entirety of the Gwenom arc >Gwen VOLUNTARILY reveals her secret identity and lets herself be arrested because her experience with Murdock leads her to believe power corrupts absolutely and she wants to be better than that >She turns down an offer to get out of jail early by joining a superhero-team-up thing because she wants to serve her sentence "fair-and-square"
But all of that REALLY COOL stuff is just perforated with all of this nonsense dimension-jumping side-story shit and and it drives me insane. Like there's TWO FUCKING ISSUES where we go off and see Gwen of the 616 universe. Yes. Really. And then we have a little side thing where she shows up again later and reveals all this was dictated by the council of gwens and blahblahblah honestly who gives a shit?
The thing that terrifies me the most is I actually like Ghost Spider #5 and #6 (it's the new run of the comic with an inexplicable rename), because they feel really comfy and like the couple of good issues from the first run. But I can't take a fucking roller-coaster of quality like this again, and I can't tell if it'll actually stick the landing this time.
Anyway, I don't know. I really WANT to like this series, and there's just so much goddamn potential, but that makes it so much worse when it screws me over with the constant dicking around.
Am I an idiot for hoping this new run will be better?
>Am I an idiot for hoping this new run will be better? You already know the answer
Wyatt Flores
They renamed it because spider-gwen was a retarded name, I've read some but can't separate what they did to peter in this AU from the rest of the book. I got annoyed with all of the ooooohhhh look at this character who you know who he is but now does something completely different because we can,but some of it was clever I'll give it that. Is pic related real? I can;t tell if its an edit or not but I can't blame them for wanting to separate her from the spider-woman name, its like every character who took over that name just gets worse and worse sales
If it's real, the only place it could be is issue #4 or #5 (leaning towards latter) because it can't be in the first run (as her identity is known) and I've read 1-3 and 5-6 of the second.
As for the "look for this guy but he does something different" eh, sometimes it fell flat, but I legitimately liked Murdock as the Kingpin. And I barely known anything about daredevil, so I feel pretty confident he stands well on his own.
Well, actually, might be in some crossover or sidestory shit I didn't read. Idk, I'm not the best person to ask.
Lucas Cooper
There's a new crew and writer, so there's hope. New writer doesn't have much of a resume, so could be good or bad. New artist is good though. Think they did some of Ms. Marvel's stuff? Anyway, there's a little hope. Though I'm gonna be dropping this if it looks to even be heading slightly in the old direction.
Charles Jones
The problem with "Ghost Spider" is that no one gives a fuck about her when she's in her own parallel universe, and she's only retroactively replacing the memory of the original Gwen Stacy
>what they did to peter in this AU from the rest of the book That was like one of the best and only good things about the book though. Peter going crazy and turning out bad of his own accord clicks.
Alexander Smith
I was so mad that this isn't what they did, or at least tried to do something like this. Just making pete into a man she has to kill because of his own weakness is just so hacky.
Cameron Howard
The memory of the original Gwen Stacy is an Emma Stone performance, not a character.
Jace Green
Lizard Peter was actually a cool idea. They need more shit like that. Emma Stone has effectively fucked over Gwen Stacy forever. It's that popularity wave that got us Gwenpool and Ghost Spider
William Hall
I don't know did we really need to see him become a school shooter? Then spend the rest of the book slowly reveal to everyone he loved how terrible he was? Shit was just tiring, I get people find it funny that white people are school shooters but its just weird you take a character like Peter Parker and say that the only reason he is a good person is because he got super powers.
It also just makes th whole spider-verse interaction they had make less sense where they pine for each other since the score is
Peter >I lost Gwen due to my own weakness and hubris
Gwen >I lost peter sue to his own weakness and hubris
Isaiah Lewis
>Peter Parker and say that the only reason he is a good person is because he got super powers. Because he is only a good person because he got a life lesson about responsibility in the death of Uncle Ben after he got super powers. That's an indisputable fact of the character.
Jeremiah Lopez
You're describing most b-lister comics user.
Evan Cox
Yes he got powers and was going to abuse them, it doesn't mean if he never got super powers he'd try to kill his classmates
Andrew Wright
His "I hate all of them" attitude and general antipathy toward people before Ben's death paint a very clear picture. Don't know why you're intent on disputing canon, Peter starting out as a spiteful, hate-filled misanthrope doesn't take away from the person he grew up into. But he wouldn't have gotten there without life's harsh lessons to get him there.
Jace Hernandez
Different user her and I may be remembering this wrong, but I recall them showing that Earth-65 Peter was also a cunt to his only two friends, such as getting pissy when he lost a role-playing game. It was as if they were trying to retroactively absolve Gwen of her guilt over having failed to save him
Jose Hill
I think you're remembering wrong. Pretty sure that was Harry, and Peter was the DM.
If I remember correctly, he got all pissy because Peter introduced a character called the Green Goblin (which was Harry's bullying nickname in this universe) out of a well-intentioned attempt by him and Gwen (but really stupid one) to get him "over" it.
Needless to say, he didn't take it well.
Isaac Howard
The pic is real, but it's from A-Force, who inhabit an alt universe section created by Doom in Hickman's Secret Wars.
Grayson Gutierrez
It's realistic, both Peter and Harry are issues-prone. In fact Spider-Gwen would only be the kind of person she is if she had to witness her friends deteriorate and being unable to stop it, vs. the way things went down in 616 where she just lost her father and then died. Not being a 60's-70's stereotype of a perfect girl helps too.
Mason Reed
One your interpretation of an "i hate them all attitude" was one line of frustration after being shot down by some girls for a date. Now I know its funny to imagine everyone completely over reacting to something so little by KILLING THOSE WHO WRONGED HIM, but I always interpreted that as him knowing he was going to make something of himself and they'd all feel sorry later when reading about what he'd do with science. I Regardless of how much he hated his bullies I don't think he'd do anything drastic in fear of hurting his family
Asher Reyes
Like most of the spider gwen stuff, there's a lot of nice moments and character interactions buried between UUUUGH
anyway, tying into what you said, one of my favorite little conversations was Gwen confronting Harry as Spider-Woman and revealing her identity to him (at this time most people think Spider-Woman MURDERED Peter)
Anyways, for a moment it looks like he's gonna just keep going at her, but Gwen basically just asks him if that's really what Peter would want. For their lives and friendship to be reduced to a costumed cat and mouse game of Green Goblin vs. Spider Woman, and it actually gets through to him.
...and if I remember, right, that's the last you see of him for like 10 issues. PACING, EVERYONE!
David Williams
If you acknowledge that Amazing Fantasy #15 is from the early 60's when that kind of attitude was considered pathologically antisocial it becomes clear he was meant to be a person who grew into being good, not someone who started out that way. He didn't even consider that there could be negative consequences to his actions or inaction that would lead to his family being hurt until Ben actually died. Adjust his outlook of personal superiority and unchecked frustrations for the modern day, and you get a school shooter. Pretty straightforward. You might find this difficult to believe, but you've actually been putting up Peter Parker on a pedestal that he was never intended for by his creators Ditko and Lee.
James Sanchez
I'd been saying the same thing long ago, the problem with it is that it has interesting ideas, but like you point out, it's hobbled by a lack of focus in the story and I would say also in the art's storytelling.
A lot of ideas in Spider-Gwen could be interesting, if they served the story well. The problem is that the different changes become distractions, and don't really have much to do with Spider-Gwen herself.
Murdock, Punisher, Rhino, Black Cat and some others being altered is kind of okay because the characters deal with Spider-Man from time to time, but then it raises questions about why they're different, how does Gwen getting powers relate to Murdock becoming the Kingpin? Gwen getting Spider-powers and Peter becoming the Lizard makes sense for the story they're telling because Peter becoming the Lizard is a consequence of Gwen getting powers instead.
Changes like with the Fantastic Four and Captain America feel like change for the sake of change, and end up being distractions because now you want to find more about them instead of Spider-Gwen, who's getting underdeveloped. And once those add up it gets overwhelming.
Ethan Moore
I do like that whoever's the new writer this run is finally letting good, nice, things happen to Gwen. Needed a breather after all the darkness of the 1st run.
Like, here we have Marvel citizens actually congratulating her for doing a good job. Considering she got thrown in prison by a jury earlier, it's a nice way to show that there's a new status quo where everything's not horrible now.
It's an inverse square law proportion between how close a character is to the protagonist to how relevant it is that character is to the world being different. Obviously the whole world is different but the fact that Gwen is Spider-Woman is only a factor in how different things are to those closest to her. Everything else is different by virtue of it being an alternate universe. The problem isn't the changes it's that unless you have an ongoing comic of GwenCaptain and Gwentastic Four, they have a right to exist but shouldn't show up in a Spider-Gwen story.
Evan Mitchell
I don't even really think it's the fact that those ideas are introduced that's the main issue, I think it's (like you said) a lack of focus. Too much jumping over the place, trying to do everything, and therefore doing nothing.
Aiden Sullivan
Pathologically antisocial? The dude was trying to interact with his classmates and they all shat on him, now those kids are the ones who come into their own in college, especially genius nerds like peter parker. I understand that not everything can turn out well but to say that the difference between peter and gwen is that gwen was always going to be a good person and peter needed divine fucking intervention to be is maddening and another huge reason why I hate this spider-gwen bullshit. It took a historic character and moment in spider-man and comics history in general and just made them another generic super hero
Jaxson Wilson
>Emma Stone has effectively fucked over Gwen Stacy forever. It's that popularity wave that got us Gwenpool and Ghost Spider
Nobody likes gwen stacy, she was just uncle Ben part 2.
Lincoln Miller
I never interpreted this Peter like that. Way I saw it, he got pissy on prom night, wanted to show all those jocks he was smart and important and shit with SCIENCE, took the Lizard serum... and THEN the lizard serum caused him to go all school-shooter on everyone.
He basically cuts out his superego and that makes his lizard brain (in both meanings) do the thinking (or lack of it).
Nolan Cox
Gwen stacy is a turning point when the comics went from good to great and to say that no one likes her is just more revisionism to justify this at best decent comic
Wyatt Brooks
That is not what the fans said.
Lincoln Butler
>Pathologically antisocial? Yes, asking people who don't even like you to go to something they don't like and getting pissed about them saying no, as far as the mid 20th century is concerned, signs of an antisocial personality. Whether that hate is deserved or not isn't relevant to the question of that he was hateful. Heck, Peter only mellowed out in general when Ditko left and Lee wanted him to be even more likable to kids like you, and in Amazing Fantasy 15#, the one absolute piece of canon for pre-heroic Peter Parker, he was troubled, angry and apathetic towards the problems of others.
Have fun continuing to be wrong about your icon.
Henry Wright
Gwen Stacy isn't the turning point. Her death was. She was literally holding the greatness of comics back.
Christopher Long
about what? Fans didn't like her death at the time but the 80's have some of the most loved stories in the franchise black cat, kravens last hunt, death of jean dewolf, the marriage hobgoblin and his giant the gang war. Gwens death provided a drama and great back drop for the grittiness to come. Or are you talking about the comic? because its "longevity" is due to the constant multiverse shit (though I will admit the design is good, if impractical for stealth situations)
Ryan Bell
Yeah the changes on their own can be fine. But my point is this book put so many changes that they just seem like one shiny red ball after another.
It's like, if the change to the Fantastic Four on Earth-65 was just that Reed was black, but the team was the same, got the same powers, and were about the same, it's easy to breeze through because you know who the Fantastic Four are, and Reed being black wouldn't change anything.
But here you find out Ben Grimm is a cop, and might think "Oh, so he didn't go on that space flight." But then you find out that there was no space flight, because Reed is a 13-year-old prodigy, and never met Ben, Johnny, and Sue. And Johnny and Sue are also kids who, along with their parents are on a show called The Fantastic Four. So then that raises even more questions.
I mean, I liked a lot of the ideas in the book, like Spider-Gwen having to deal with a Murdock Kingpin. But it felt like it was more interested in showing off how different it was as opposed to doing a story.
Michael Moore
he was asking girls on a date the dude was anti social but to say that he was going to kill them all paints a pretty bad picture of everyone involved including uncle Ben and aunt may. But I suppose it wouldn't be modern comics if it didn't build itself solely by sabotaging and shitting on what was already there
James Hughes
Listen to you screeching about Gwen. You really can't help yourself can you Gwenshipper? Here's a fun fact, Peter never really loved her, he just loved the idea of having a perfect Stan Lee wife. With her departure ended the mediocrity of the Silver Age and Spider-Gwen is a much richer character for all the reasons of being completely unlike this Silver Age bimbo.
Oh you sad faggot of course you'd be in this thread to, spider gwen is just a generic super bimbo designed to be hot but stronk and has no real development past that shes simply peter but a hot blonde bolstered by the fact that they don't have to worry about an editorial establishing a status quo for her because her book and universe don;t matter (until the next secret wars shoves her into the mainverse for no rhyme or reason) yes shes a fucking plot point in another characters story that's why she was a supporting character and that's why at the beginning of every spider-gwen issue it says created by the same two dead white guys as spider-man.
Christian Thompson
>just as things start to REALLY pick up- > >WHAT'S THAT? CROSSOVER EVENT TIME! Welcome to current year.
Benjamin Scott
It paints a pretty grim outlook on the modern day world where picking on the angry nerdy guy with means to exact revenge can have negative consequences. In the 60's this wasn't a real issue and being anti-social or a hippie was the height of how bad kids would get.
Evan Ward
Amazing! That entire post was one sentence. You really pulled out all the stops this time!
Connor Turner
The problem I have with this discussion is that I don't feel the book did a good job establishing how the characters were in high school that well (and had to resort to flashbacks from time to time).
I mean, I know that they did their best to establish a lot of stuff in the debut issue because they didn't know if they would get to continue it, but a lot of stuff got rushed over. Like for instance, I've had people tell me they thought this sequence meant she got bit by the spider at band practice. And I've seen so many people online dump on Cho for "sexualizing a teen" even though this comic had dialogue saying that Gwen was in college, which led me to believe the opening sequence was what caused everyone's confusion because there's not a good break between "present" and "flashback." Hell, we didn't even find out that Betty Brant was the fourth member of MJ's band until much later.
People point out that Earth-65's Peter is Ditko Peter. But the problem is, Ditko Peter didn't meet Gwen in high school. Other Peters (Ultimate, Spectacular, ASM films) did meet her, but they don't have Ditko Peter's antisocial tendencies. Setting up all the characters and their differences at the start would've cut the confusion.
The area where I disagree with is minor, but I just want to clarify it. If it's background stuff (like the Fantastic Four being the name of a sitcom on Earth-65 or Stark running a national 'Starkbucks' coffee chain), I don't think it's a problem. Those are basically cameos: small references to remind you, "Yep! Different universe!" And as long as they stay such I don't think they detract from the story.
It's having pointless stuff like Spider-Gwen meeting 616-Gwen just to show-off how 'different' they are that grinds my years. Like, yeah writers, we get it: this Gwen's different. Now can we please stay on track?
Landon Wood
to be emphatic and so gramatic yet still just such a raging faggot is kinda tragic. What's your actual problem with me bud? I'm not in your spider verse thread wondering which cool reference they can make for the next movie so what do you want?
Gavin Mitchell
Oh it absolutely could have been done better. But putting Ditko Peter in high school with Gwen and letting her take the bite instead is a perfectly legal way to shake up the premise. Besides it's really not like she's the same character as 616 Gwen.
Hudson Ortiz
To come up with new material. You've done the whole White Man Peter is Ruined By Spider-Gwen bit before. And I'm not even the one BTFO'ng you this time.
Ryan Allen
Yeah, Gwen-35 was always a bit of a tomboy and had a tendency to get into fights (which she was actually pretty terrible at winning) when one of her friends got picked on.
Gwen-616 was... not like that.
Isaac Ross
Remember when people said 90s comics had too many crossovers? Haha...
Editorial screws everything up...
Zachary Evans
To come up with new material their needs to be new material made, everything I'm bitching about is continuing with no new stories or intrigue coming from them, we're all talking about the same 50 year old franchise continuing ad infinitum. It's the lack of connective tissue that's bothering me really, if marvel really wants to make a spider-man family akin to the batman family it seems odd how everything is just made for different universes to have "different" tones yet not only do they make it all samey still they will tear everything down to force it all together, hence Miles being in the main universe and Miguel being stuck in his past. When they cross Gwen over fully is when we'll know how little they think about it
Jeremiah Davis
And I'd be fine with that, too. But my problem is I don't feel they did that great a job setting enough of the info up. Like for instance, what was this version of Gwen like before Peter died, so that we can understand how her character changed? I mean I guess she, Peter, and Harry used to play RPGs?
Luis Reed
If they cross over Spider-Gwen to 616, I'm never reading any of her stuff again. It'd be the final nail in the coffin for her character.
Word on the streets is that a lot of the Marvel suits want to do it too, for 'brand synergy' after Spider-verse, and because Jessica is now the LESSER-known Spider-Woman of the two.
Needless to say, fuck that idea with a rusty knife.
Nicholas Hughes
what would be an illegal way shaking up the premise? skip being the reason pete went all lizard?
Ethan Diaz
And when that day comes, the first thing she will do is have a hot, steamy, cute 40 page comic of her fucking Miles Morales brains out in 4 different positions. It will be so wholesome and adorable that it will put all modern erotic fanfic to shame. There'll be nothing on this board left but the discussion of how amazing Gwen and Miles are together, with the two opposite camps being: "They're super cute together!" and "They're super duper cute together!" When will you go then, eh, Gwenshipper? What could you possibly do to stop this?
Levi Diaz
shes the lesser spider woman of like the 5 honestly which is sad since she was the first
Cooper Johnson
Ditko Peter giving an exact 616 Gwen duplicate the Spider powers by fucking her.
Nathaniel Rodriguez
Meh, when I read alternate universe stuff I don't get too wrapped as to why things are different. I don't think Gwen becoming Spidey needs to be tied to Murdoch becoming Kingpin, for example.
My problem is how the story makes up a lot of story beats that don't go anywhere (the whole limited power thing), has arcs that end in the most lamest way imaginable (the way Murdoch just dies randomly was lame), and inconsistent characterization was pretty bad (why is Silk all of a sudden some enlightened Buddha despite being shown as a dastardly villain beforehand?). desu, I feel the whole alt universe thing they push is the least of this comic's problems.
Christian Jones
I mean nothing but realize you ike nothing unless you feel superior about it and find comfort in that I suppose. I don't need to read comics I just like to. Than I'll laugh because I'll remember that Miles still would have nothing than move on with my life. I don't know what you'll do, as sad as I come off in those threads you try even harder to seem cool and just bait and bait and bait until theirs no conversation left but the bullying
Hudson Hernandez
>Can it be Saved? They should just scrap the Spider-Gwen comic and use her on merch and Spider-Verse, her biggest appeal is her image.
Dylan Green
To me I think it's representative of the comic's problems even if it's not as major as the other problems. Because when I read alternate universe stuff, I'm fine with the differences. But in Spider-Gwen they just became extremely distracting. And in some ways it ties to the other problems you mentioned, that story beats don't go anywhere, things get pushed to the side, and so on.
Liam Fisher
Its caught between the writers not knowing how to world build well but really wanting to universe build, like we don't know what gwen wants to do when she goes to college but we know why captain america is a black woman
Carson Perry
I think you nailed it. I was thinking about other alternate universe stories like the first Sp//dr story and the recent Spider-Man: Life Story. I felt like the changes in those felt more organic and wasn't distracting from the story.
Adrian Reyes
Only if it reworks itself to tie directly into spiderverse and get some of the shitty parts trimmed off like miles story
