> When I started Metal, the Hawks became a real touchstone of lore and mythology, and I fell in love with those characters. I had ambitions, actually, to write a Hawkman series long ago, but I just couldn’t make it work with all of the things I was already writing for DC. But I have a tremendous love for both characters and the historical mystery that lies behind their reincarnation.
Damn, sounds like it could've been pretty sweet.
He would’ve made Carter some sort of ancestor of Bruce Wayne or some shit to still jerk the bat. Rather Hawkman do his own thing so thank god he didn’t go through with it
Even if that's no longer a thing, he's obviously still got plans for both of them. Kendra's a no-brainer since she's one of the two main characters in his Justice League run, but in that same interview, he mentions that Carter is also going to be really important. And based on what he said in one of his March interviews, some of that is going to be coming up very soon. Possibly even in the current arc. Though Tynion noted that this shit with J'onn is going to last the rest of the year so it's not all good news.
Actually, as per Metal, Carter Hall has been protecting the Wayne family for generations and Bruce was inspired by Carter to become a detective, because Carter is the best detective in all of the DCU.
So no. You're wrong.
Here's what Scott Snyder tried to do with Carter and Shiera Hall in the DARK NIGHTS: METAL event.
Actually he's right because that sounds like Batcancer to me.
How is it Batcancer when Scott Snyder intention was to show that Carter Hall was the first and the best fighter, detective, and inventor there ever was and is in the greater DCU?
He didn't just connect Carter to Batman, but tons of other characters. Even then the only reason why Carter isn't the protagonist of this story is because Didio said nobody cares about Hawkman and only accepted the pitch once Snyder turned into a Batman centric event.
>Didio said nobody cares about Hawkman and only accepted the pitch once Snyder turned into a Batman centric event.
That's just slander against Didio.
I'm going to stop here. Everyone knows the rest? Yes?
>how is it Batcancer?
By making Hawkman's whole reason of being to protect Batman? By the fact that Batman is already an overbloated franchise and doesn't need to assimilate more characters into it?
I never said Snyder made Hawkman whole reason of being to protect Batman. The fact that Hawkman protected the Waynes over the generations is a side-note. Hawkman also created the Blackhawks, the Challengers of the Unknown, and a group of immortal characters (that consist of Vandal Savage, Shazam, Ra's al Ghul, and so on). The point was to make Hawkman in the most connected character in the DCU, as well an inspiration for most of the high-profile characters.
>The fact that Hawkman protected the Waynes over the generations is a side-note.
I'm sure it would have been and not at all something that would have redefined Hawkman.
That still sounds like bad writing.
It's still canon either way.
Keep going Hawkfag
Did they even do anything with Daniel as Carter's grandson?
Fuck I hated this.
Why? Are you one of those people who also hate the fact that Gaiman's Death isn't the one, true entity as well?
I don't think anyone at DC remembers that.
Yes, just like Gaiman's Death is simply Death, Gaiman's Dream is simply Dream.
Gaiman helped write that bit, dumb-dumb.
So Daniel is Dream then?
You're a moron.
That part was still shit.
You have shit taste.
Kinda. Daniel was trying to get Batman or whoever else to help Hawkman, his grandpa, from Barbatos' machinations and the end of everything as they know it.
No he didn't.
>When I was developing the story a year and a half ago, it centered on the Justice League discovering the Dark Multiverse, which is this primal subconscious realm beneath the multiverse where all these other worlds are possible. They’re sort of created or destroyed based on our dreams and nightmares. So anything you fear or hope for materializes down there for as long as you potently fear or desire that thing. It’s really a world that’s reactive to the things we don’t want to admit we want or don’t want. It’s a realm of dream, of the subconscious. I started thinking about which character in the entire DCU would make the best guide for the concept, and who would be affected by that place being completely shaken up. I started approaching the idea of pitching to Neil, who I’ve been lucky to meet a few times and hang out with over the course of my time at DC, the possibility of Dream appearing in the story. I worked myself up to it. Even though we’re friendly, to ask that of him was hugely intimidating. I braced myself and then wrote this very long tearful email that I did like three drafts of, explaining what Dream’s role would be, why it matters, and how it figured into the story. I also asked for any questions or points of discussion; I was prepared for this back-and-forth, or for him to just say no. Instead, he wrote back and said, “I love it, go for it.” That was the whole exchange. I was like, “Are you serious? Just to be clear, this is how I’m going to use him.” He was like, “Oh no, go ahead.”
Reminder that the Waynes are descendants of Hath-Set, the Shadow Thief.
>Liking Metal
>Liking Snyder
You have shit taste.
Hath Set, yes - but where did you het Shadow Thief from user?
Also, daily reminder that Jeff Lemire was going to write Hawkman.
>inb4 it was meant to be dumb
For the lore it gave Hawkman? It was an awesome way to bring back Hawkman so kiss my was you prude.
I always forget that they're separate characters in the comics.
It was a fun event that brought a lot of pre-Flashpoint lore back, as well as adding tons of other new lore that are interesting in its own right.
Most people hate it just because DC dared to produce a big event centered on Batman, instead of Superman.
Hath-set the shadow thief is a cool name.
It butchered the lore is what it did.
>Most people hate it just because DC dared to produce a big event centered on Batman,
Yeah how daring of DC to use Batman, talk about High risk for high rewards.
How did it do that loser?
By getting everything wrong.
cyborg's logo is so fucking terrible
Alright, fuck off loser - next time, have an actual contribution
You go on about lore but you don't really appreciate it.
Please expand man. I'll wait.
>Black Cock Island
You.. could have picked a better name
>Challengers of the Unknown
Man he really tied everything he could with Hawkman. I assume it none of it took though?
Venditti, unfortunately, has been ignoring everything. Like, literally everything you've read here in this thread.
Yeah, Venditti seems to be sidestepping the deep lore - especially Kendra...
...And that's a big mistake!
He's sidestepping everything. Shiera/Kendra, the Nth metal, the Thanagarian culture, the Bird tribe. Everything. The only thing he's using is the reincarnation cycle and many lives Carter have lived throughout DC history, but without ever really focusing too many in any of the lives. They're nothing more than window dressing. Instead he's focusing on this stupid as fuck Deathbringers sci-fi ship and creatures that demand sacrifice of lesser race. And the story is going nowhere! Fucking nowhere!
I know Yea Forums is loving the run, but all i see is wasted opportunity. Specially after what Snyder set up in Metals. Fuck, Snyder transformed Carter in the world most important detective, inventor, and strategist! He knows everyone, created every major group, and is aware of every mystery big and small! Do something interesting with it, Venditti! Anything! Create some rivalry with Vandal Savage. They're from different tribes. I don't know. Make up some new mystery that actually deals with the DCU lore. Use his many enemies and make them be just as big and important to the wider DCU!
Goddamn, Venditti.
>that image
amazing. Is that from Savage Hawkman? That series was shit right?
Sidestepping isn't blatantly retconning so we're at least ahead of a Hawkman v3 disaster. Even if he does absolutely nothing with any of this, it's still left in canon for someone else to explore later.
If i were a Hawkman writer, i'd pick the ball from Snyder and use the Hawkman book to reintroduce every little obscure DC character and group by way of Hawkman uncovering them in his explorations during his many lives. The biggest example would be Warlord and his underground magical kingdom. I'd make it be an impacting discovery too, with many ramification. Just to keep this idea that Carter is big explore that knows everyone and everything. Like say, Claw the Unconquered! I don't know. Just go through DC's Whos' Who and have the ball rolling.
Making Hawkman into a mary sue doesn't make him a good character.
It's snyder's fault in the first place, the reincarnation cycle is basically the only thing Snyder left for Venditti.
It's a terrible idea in the first place. Let the Blackhawks amd Challengers of the unknown do their own thing, they don't need to be roped into Hawkman's mythos like this.
It's not about making him a Mary Sue, because he's not taking on Superman alone with nothing but his ace. It's about taking the fact that Carter Hall's constantly reincarnating and remember his past lives each and every time it happens, and taking that concept to its logical and most interesting conclusion which is the fact that he could have met anyone who's someone over the centuries and learned a lot.
How come? I doubt very much Snyder is blocking Venditti from doing stuffs with Carter.
>Snyder transformed Carter in the world most important detective, inventor, and strategist! He knows everyone, created every major group, and is aware of every mystery big and small!
Sounds like a mary sue to me.
Snyder is using Kendra and Thanagar for whatever shallow epic event for justice league. Don't forget Snyder obviously has an autistic boner for Nth metal, it was a major plot point in his other shallow event comic Dark Knights metal.
The guy lived more lives than anyone, though. I'm a big Batman fan, but i've no problem with Carter being a better detective. He should know more than anyone.
Okay, no Kendra then. Venditti can still use everything else. And the Thanagar thing is not true, because Venditti made use of it. He's just too absorb in this Deathbringer stuff.
Making him the most important figure in the DC universe is an inconsiderate and awkward idea. It robs everyone else of identity and for what? It's not the fountainhead of creativity that you think, it just becomes repetitive. Have Hawkman be a man of culture with well rounded skills but don't make him into a tumor on the blackhawks of Challengers of the unknown.
The Deathbringer plot is literally just the aftermath of Snyder's Dark Nights metal event.
Venditti got Thangar right while Snyder added some more outlandish stupid shit because he wants to be Morrison so bad.
Hawkman Secret Files and Origins.
From John's era, so he was just a badass rage monster.
Yeah, I want a fan of that, but then again...
Apart from the revelation of Khufu not being his first life/his origin, how is it the aftermath?
Snyder created a super-secret Thanagar outpost precisely because he didn't want to contradict Venditti's run.
But he did nonetheless and he also just got thanagar flatout wrong.
But you don't need him to be the creator and leader of the blackhawks, you can just have them teamup.
>apart from Smyder grafting his stupid dark multiverse mythos onto Hawkman
It's no small thing.
He didn't. He really didn't. He only created a Thanagarian outpost nobody knew about and that held all the planet's biggest secret. He even respected the fact that the real Thanagar was blown up alongside Katar in a previous comic - Death of the Hawkman. I guess he ignored the fact Shayera died in a previous New 52 comic - Savage Hawkman. But that's it.
The only thing he changed, was the fact that the Nth metal came from the dark multiverse.
Elaborate?
And the fact that Hawkman is wrapped up in his stupid barbatos/dragon bullshit.
He gave Hawkman a cosmic baddie on par with the Monitor and Anti-Monitor. Is that so bad?
Venditti got Thangar right while Snyder got it wrong. You read Venditti thangar issue and you can see the grim 80s scifi police state while Snyder is just ripping off morrison.
Snyder barely did anything with Thanagar, though.
Yeah because it's some real stupid shit. Hawkman doesn't need a cosmic level baddie but if you must how about use some that are actually relevant to Hawkman.
Use set or apep for the egyptian influence or Omar Synn or Starbreaker for the thangarian/space influence.
Did enough. We haven't even begin to talk about J'onn and Kendra like what the fuck is that about?
Snyder's Thanagar is influenced by the New 52/Silver Age Thanagar of you read anything other than Hawkworld you'd know this.
It's literally not even the same Thanagar man
>Snyder's Thanagar is influenced by the New 52/Silver Age Thanagar
Knowing Snyder I'm guessing that's actually bullshit. Some writers at fairly good at remixing continuity to create more fitting or interesting ideas but Snyder is not one of them.
>places that exist in phantom frquencies and strange math
Dammit. That is like an idea I had for a horror series.
Veez. They just copy pasted the info graphic of Morrison's multiverse?
No it's not.
In print it's lobel.
Also that would be one of the less stupid things he's said even with how stupid it is.
Is that The Question or Phantom Stranger? Pleaze tell me they arent running with that dumb immortal Question idea still.
Is this from a dlc level in Assasins Creed?
I avoided Metal because it seemed like an over the top Batman event, but this stuff about the Hawks has me interested. Damn.
The Phantom Stranger.
Please read it my good sir, then pick up the New Hawkman series!
Reminder that Snyder will write in DETECTIVE COMICS #1000 Batman creating a detective club with his personal hero Carter Hall, alongside other DC characters.
I want DC to turn Hawkman into their Wolverine.
Trust me, I'll be looking forward to that.
Read Geoff John's Hawkman to see how that's pan out ideally.
Then read Savage Hawkman to see how it can fail terribly.
>The point was to make Hawkman in the most connected character in the DCU
By a lazy retcon.
It's one thing to merely encounter other DC characters across time as you're reincarnating, that's a fun trope, it's another entirely when you blatantly assert Carter single handedly recruited and formed almost every fucking C-list group, like the Challengers, Blackhawks, Metal Men, etc. and do it as a super lazy retcon to artificially make Hawkman the lynchpin of the entire DC Universe retroactively.
Here's a hypothetical, hyperbolic example: If Carter met Jonah Hex in the wild west, like we know he did, and they team up, that's fine, no harm done. It's two western characters just meeting. But you don't fucking bend over backwards and retcon Carter's Nth metal tomahawk be the thing that scars Jonah or make Carter be the defining person who recruits Hex to the confederate side or teaches him everything he knows when it comes to shooting guns, or who gives Hex his twisted by mostly righteous moral backbone. That's egregious lazy writing where you use other characters just to prop up your own pet project to make him look cooler by a half assed masturbationary gary sue fantasy.
Well thank fuck that didn't happen.
>mary sue
There's that word again
Why is it such a sin for writers to create something new, instead of rehashing the same villains we've seen for decades?
Did it say he formed the Challs and the Metal Men? It looks more like he asked them for help. Your hyperbolic example is awful if it were true but it isn't so I don't really get what you're complaining about.
Barbatos is literally a rehashed morrison villain.
In this case it fits.
Everything is rehashed. We've been reading the same shit for 50 years.
Hawkman doesn't need a Cosmic villain.
Says who?
Then just use Hawkman's villains then.
Barbatos wasn't created by Morrison in the first place though, and Snyder went more after his actual origin as a demon haunting Gotham, who claimed to be the one behind Batman, rather than Morrison's focus on ties with Darkseid, even if those were referenced too.
The history of the character.
>Snyder went more after his actual origin as a demon haunting Gotham
Except no he didn't.
Explain
>explain
Snyder is replacing the genuine mythos of Hawkman with his retarded with his genuinely shit Dark Multiverse mythos.
Snyder is a fraud.
What mythos? The reincarnation cycle? That's still there.
>what mythos?
Stories from his actual comics.
Those still happened
I don't remember Barbatos or the dark multiverse being part of Hawkman's original mythos.
No they didn't, instead they got bastardized for Snyder's shitty Dark multiverse. That is not who Hawkman is.
>Stories must be rehashed exactly the same forever and we can never introduce new ideas
Stop this.
How didn't they? Did Dark Multiverse say they never happened?
I've been noticing a pattern here, where you've been trying to gaslight people into believing that Snyder is being faithful to the source material.
But he isn't.
>stop this
What? Pointing out how fucking retarded Snyder's ideas are?
>Did Dark Multiverse say they never happened?
Basically. Dark nights metal retcons too much by inserting the dark multiverse into Hawkman's origin.
It'd be great if you could point out where he isn't, instead of just saying it and hoping people believe you.
I don't care if you don't like it, but your only criticism so far seems to be "it's new so it's bad" and THAT'S retarded. I don't want to fucking read the same shit for 40 years. Let new writers introduce new things into a character's mythos without getting all "NOT MUH" about it.
These are not new ideas, just bad ones.
>but your only criticism so far seems to be "it's new so it's bad"
No it's not.
>It'd be great if you could point out where he isn't,
>blackhawk island is now magical
Retcon.
>Hawkman created the blackhawks, challengers of the unknown, the metal men
Retcon
>Hawkman actually purpose is to fight the dark multiverse
>Hawkman lead a secret cabal of immortals
>Hawkman and Batman are actually interconnected
>Adding new things is disrespecting the original
Disagree. If he was saying the old stuff didn't happen, that'd be disrespecting it.
This is not adding anything to Hawkman, this is replacing Hawkman for Snyder's stupid dark multiverse bullshit.
>If he was saying the old stuff didn't happen, that'd be disrespecting it.
You're an idiot because the old stuff couldn't happen with these retcons.