Kingdom Come
Storytime of Pain: Old Man Yells At Clouds Edition
Eli Howard
William Jackson
Wyatt Cooper
Kevin Lee
Gavin Reed
Brody Roberts
John Diaz
Nathaniel Ward
>I don't like it so it's storytime of pain tier
Casuals and newfags have ruined this place.
>inb4 I'm not
You don't read comics at all if you think this is SoP material.
Josiah Rogers
Jack Jones
Probably someone who got upset at Waid's spergouts.
Ryan Kelly
I read KC before getting really interested in comics, i was like "this is god tier" and it still is, but holy shit, mark waid is a joke of a human being
Thomas Ross
>t. Mark Waid
Easton Hughes
Mark Waid maybe a fool, but Kingdom Come is a great Superman story
Nathaniel Ward
Hunter Adams
Owen Sanders
Luis Rogers
Aiden Hill
Henry Sanders
Kill yourself you insufferable faggot.
Jaxson Cooper
Aiden Jones
that green lantern looks super gay
Eli Ward
Calm down Waid, don't you have a phone to slam on the floor?
Josiah Carter
Believe it or not it has more character than the actual Green Lantern does
Ryder Foster
John Morales
John Howard
Jason Thompson
Charles James
this comic fucking sucks. It has dated so badly. Every character looks like a middle aged out of shape failed actor in cosplay. It is so stiff and there is no movement.
Mark Waid is a shit writer who really needs to sort out his emotional issues.
Liam Lee
Gavin Baker
Wyatt Fisher
Lincoln Flores
This art is beautiful...
Brayden Gomez
I read it when I was 9 and thought it was god tier too when I was a retarded normie. Now I can see KC for what it is-pure mediocrity with stiff art of Alex Ross's friends in cosplay.
Elijah Brooks
Chase Sullivan
Do people really hate this comic? I thought it was pretty great.
Oliver Martin
It really is, but it lacks proper flow. Alex Ross excels at pin-ups
Jacob Turner
daddy
Joshua Fisher
Zachary Anderson
Justin Campbell
t. Liefeld
Easton Diaz
Connor Clark
Well now I need to look up Liefeld's thoughts on this
Jacob Hill
Charles White
Jaxon Richardson
Bentley Mitchell
Carter Torres
Jayden Gomez
Mason Rivera
Luis Rogers
Zachary Collins
Jacob Davis
Kingdom Come is great though.
Colton Price
Colton Hall
William Garcia
Joshua Gray
Parker Wood
Gabriel Martinez
Austin Johnson
Sebastian Wright
Thomas Foster
Jason Stewart
Jackson Lopez
Colton Russell
Michael Watson
Chase Long
Elijah Hall
Parker Johnson
Logan Thompson
Based OP
Matthew Taylor
Ayden Foster
Jordan Brown
Julian Jenkins
Ayden Mitchell
Ryder Davis
Zachary Harris
Luis Morales
Thomas Price
Parker Brown
John Smith
Nicholas James
Jace Rivera
Nathaniel Jones
Luke Davis
David Mitchell
Nathan Ward
Cameron Cooper
Benjamin Murphy
Fat Lex Luthor is the best
Easton Thomas
Juan Evans
Elijah Brooks
Asher Perez
Wyatt Thompson
Adrian Roberts
Aiden Evans
Asher Howard
>Liefeld
>thoughts
lol
Samuel Gomez
Eli Morales
Yeah, turns out he hasn't talked about it. I was hoping for some entertainment, lord knows I'm not getting it from this series
Hunter Jenkins
Jace Roberts
Is this peak Yea Forumsntrarianism? Or is OP just salty over something
Landon Hernandez
He said he did like that Magog was based on Cable, in an issue of Wizard. I forgot which issue though.
Jackson Ramirez
Jordan Baker
Owen Jenkins
This isn't a good comic. It might have been something when it came out, but it aged like milk
James Reed
Dylan Anderson
Adam Adams
Don't you have a sister to be rejected by, Reinhard?
Jonathan Morgan
Levi Garcia
Just because (You) don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s SOP material, OP. Have (You) even seen the comics in SOP?
Like hell, I dislike Red Son but you don’t see me saying it’s a SOP
Jacob Bennett
Some people hate everything. Only faggots care what other people think about the fiction they read, if they even read fiction.
If you can explain why you like it- you’re in the clear.
Christian Sanchez
Luke Cook
Noah Hill
Exactly. Labels mean something, damnit
Gabriel Johnson
That's because Red Son is actually decent
Andrew Thompson
>literally Yea Forumsmblr/pol/ in my storytime.
Brayden Flores
Adrian Peterson
>That's because Red Son is actually decent
Pleb taste.
Jack Cook
Logan Garcia
I said decent, not great.
Luis Hernandez
>aged like milk
A meaningless buzzphrase from Yea Forums
Michael Morris
Jack Hall
It’s a phrase older than this website.
Henry Barnes
He's upset at Waid, if you've never noticed, the Anti-Kingdom Come posts on Yea Forums increased after he got flustered over Gamergate supporters getting a booth at a convention and more so after his raging posts and tweets since then.
Ethan Foster
I wouldn't know, I've never been to Yea Forums. I can tell you that other stories have not only done this story better, but they didn't completely destroy the characters to do it.
Ian Long
Hey, OP. It's been a while since I've read this, but I do disagree with your SoP label. You've made your criticisms of Ross pretty clear, but what specifically do you dislike about Waid's writing here?
John Rogers
And turned into a meaningless buzzphrase.
Lucas Hughes
Mark Waid has written some really great shit like Fantastic Four, Incorruptible, and The Flash. Kingdom Come is not one of them
Landon Hall
I wrote it out in another thread, but here
>I get that Mark Waid was having a problem with the direction that comics were going in the nineties where all the superheroes became these people that didn't really make sense in context with the world created in the 30s-60s because the industry was being run by people that basically ran films. So we just had characters popping up willy-nilly that didn't really make sense with all these big guns and pouches who were fighting just to fight. As much as I don't think Superman would ever retire, it makes sense why the old guard left after all the villains died. They actually had motivation for their characters to fight this evil and with the evil gone there was nothing left to fight. Meanwhile you have these nineties characters who were just fighting just a fight so when there's no villains they started fighting each other. Waid very much was venting his frustration out on the nineties style of comics and I think some of that was valid.
Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman become fascists to the point where they are literally locking super villains up in a place literally called the Gulag and no one is batting an eye to that. Not even Batman because it turns out he was undercover the whole time and just sweeps the Legion of Doom out in like three pages despite all of this build up. >Meanwhile Green Lantern and Flash as well as pretty much everyone else became set pieces that barely got to do anything in the story let alone talk. To me it felt like the message of the story became more important than the actual story itself as well as the characters. We get little information on why the world is like this now other than "the new heroes fucking sucked and the old were much better". I also don't buy Superman's motivation for quitting nor that him quitting would have caused this kind of world to exist. So Waid basically forced to this world into creation just to have his commentary and the story really suffered for that.
Angel Bailey
>Then there's the massive elephant in the room, a character more mishandled than Superman, Captain Marvel. The one character that even more than Superman just doesn't fit with the nineties Xtreme edge and nihilism. Waid basically lobotomize the one character that is supposed to be this embodiment of not only childhood wonderment, but pure superheroism. Then Shazam is just like "well the other cosmic beings won't let me help so your on your own kid" so Billy stands around for three issues before straight up becoming the villain and the dues ex machina in the same scene. I was just absolutely baffled by Waid's choices with this series. I get that it's and Elseworlds so these aren't the characters I know, but the Elseworlds I've read have really good world building that justify the changes made to the characters. This just felt like Waid sat down with a message he wanted to convey and that was what was pushing the story forward rather than allowing it to come organically.
Andrew Gonzalez
Still doesn’t make it SoP material, this just makes it mediocre and boring according to your own description. A SoP is actively bad
Isaiah Hall
Justin Ross
Idk man, I was pretty fucking angry by the end of the book. It's super preachy and just eats itself at the end
Wyatt Perez
Fair enough. I still don’t think it’s worthy of the SOP label, but at least you can describe why you dislike it.
Dylan Johnson
Matthew Ward
You know you're probably right. Maybe it's not, but for me it was a pretty painful read
Jayden Wood
Jeez I’m kind of afraid faggots will start SoPing comics they just don’t like now. Won’t be long before someone SoPs watchmen or johns green lantern or something
Bentley Bailey
Michael Mitchell
Aaron Fisher
>Won’t be long before someone SoPs watchmen
That would be such a disaster I’d love to see it happen.
Isaiah Baker
Can I do Watchmen? I fucking hated it and holy shit was the back patting hard to get through
Logan Ramirez
Tbh I think what kept me angry after reading it was going online immediately after and looking for people talking about it only to find it in so many "greatest comics of all time" lists.
Brayden Rodriguez
Cooper Reyes
Zachary Campbell
I mean, even if OP has labeled it an SoP...
it's still a storytime... you could just IGNORE OP's opinions...
Adam Cox
Eli Collins
I also want someone to do it with Watchmen though after seeing this response
Austin Richardson
>people that love garbage like Kingdom Come think Watchmen is garbage
Exposed yourself as an imbecile
Ryder Torres
I didn’t like it either, but it definitely isn’t a SOP.
When this is over I’ll adopt my stupid storytimer name and post something truly painful.
Zachary Miller
Charles White
I get that I am an old man yelling at clouds but damn it back in my day SoP meant something and it still should
Christopher Long
Lincoln Torres
People would be absolutely seething. I’d love it just sit back and watch it.
Chase Ward
Adam Sullivan
I haven’t read Kingdom Come before this thread though. I just dislike Watchmen
Jose Sanders
James Wood
Joseph Phillips
Logan Mitchell
I understand that feeling. I got into comics late at 19 and this is among the first comics I read. I went online to read about why others thought ti was so great only to see a lot of "just trust us" or "it's iconic" type of responses. I tried to like it and bought into the narrative that the fans were pushing that the 90s were just so goddamn awful and this is a commentary on it but at the end of the day, it's just a poorly written comic in a decade where you could find a lot of great comics. I'd have more respect for it if the people that praise it are the same that think Jim Lee is a god and love crossover events and defend all that trash from the 90s that this comic was suppose to critique.
Mason Rogers
>Meanwhile Green Lantern and Flash as well as pretty much everyone else became set pieces that barely got to do anything in the story let alone talk.
You just described 95% of major DC events and books lol
Luke Kelly
Aiden Bennett
There was a lot of garbage in the 90s, but you're right there were a lot of gems
That's true, but this wasn't an event
Matthew Reyes
Brody Cruz
Nolan Watson
I think the dialogue and narration is fine so far (but then again I’m not familiar with DC beyond Vertigo). Is the larger problem being that it doesn’t fit the DCU or something?
Lucas Murphy
Jordan Cox
This Its one of his best work. And shows how could he can be.
Adam Diaz
But my point is that the people that love Kingdom Come are the same that love that shitty era of convoluted Jim Lee drawn X-Men and shit like that. The people that love Kingdom Come are the same that shit on Jared Fate without even reading it, and that was a really nice series.
Brayden Rogers
Noah Gray
Yeah, it is bizarre that a comic that is bitching about how bad the 90s were is loved by 90s fans
Daniel Howard
Christopher Powell
Caleb Gonzalez
>Fair enough
I hate this response more than anything on Yea Forums, well, except for "contrarian". You asks a guy to comment on why he doesn't like something and instead of a discussion you just go "okay, whatever". It happens all the time when someone puts effort into writing a long post and then the other guy either doesn't reply anymore or just posts a 4-10 word reply that basically reads "well, that's just your opinion".
Not like this, they don't even have a line of dialogue here.
Lucas Watson
Gavin Edwards
I dislike Jared as he is a pure downgrade from Nelson. If Nelson as fate didn’t exist beforehand I might be more okay with him
Austin Adams
Thomas Edwards
Brody Taylor
Christopher Bennett
I was saying his opinions were completely justified and well-thought put. He was being fair, even if I still don’t particularly feel the same way.
Oliver Davis
The larger problem is that it tries to make a point but doesn't really elaborate, OP talked about it earlier in that it presents this world that went to shit but doesn't really go into detail on how things got here and while there are a lot of splash pages with loads of characters most of them don't even get to talk and are just there as decoration. Also, Waid is a hypocrite.
Michael Davis
What else can he say though? Op complains mostly about mischaracterisation or out of character actions, but some people might be fine with it due to them not being familiar with the source, or being more lenient because it’s an Elseworlds. There’s nothing to argue here, you’re either ok or you’re not ok with it
Asher Thompson
I didn't take you as being rude or anything user
Connor Sanchez
This is how low Yea Forums has become. When a classic is tarnished not on the merit to which it is written but because the OP has a hate boner for the author. Early 2010's Yea Forums will be missed.
Christian Brown
Aaron Stewart
Is it wrong that I don’t really care about the backstory of this world so far? I just accept it as a new setting
Ryder Moore
No, it's not weird at all. The 90s had some good stuff (like Vertigo shit) but introduced some of the worst tropes to date, or worsened a lot of the existing ones as far as comics go. The people who read shit back then can appreciate that the stuff Kingdom Come was criticising hasn't aged as well as people thought it would.
I get that you're mad at Waid because he doesn't like callous anti-heroes who kill civilians, or whatever but this comic is not SoP material, no matter how unsubtle it is in calling out idolising those kinds of characters. This board's getting more rose-tinted about embarassing 90s shit by the day
Jaxson Garcia
>praises author's other works
>details why he doesn't like it
>lol nah you just hate the writer
Jackson Young
Everything decent in Kingdom Come is done better in Marvels or Irredeemable
Zachary Evans
>I was saying his opinions were completely justified and well-thought put.
And I was saying that yours aren't. I think that if you ask someone "why do you like this/why don't you like this?" you should be prepared to follow up his post and discuss your point of view instead of just replying with "ok whatever". It's less directed at you and more at Yea Forums in general that people here run away from discussion and when someone puts effort into writing a long post, you should do the same instead of "didn't read lol"
Blake Richardson
>the 1% behind /pol/, pulling the strings.
Carter Hernandez
>I get that you're mad at Waid because he doesn't like callous anti-heroes who kill civilians
That's not why I'm mad at all, I actually think that's the biggest thing I agree with here and as this user says it's done better in Waid's own work
Jonathan Robinson
Levi Ward
>classic
To be fair, there is such a lot of great cape comics that are considered classic canon that KC just seems underwhelming by comparison.
Isaiah Morris
But why are you ok with 90% of the characters being set pieces? And why do you feel like the fascist Trinity are good? Or why do you think Superman taking his toys and moving away like a butthurt child is good? For that matter why didn't he just leave earth?
Chase Myers
You sound like a Disney shill that has the motivation to remake every old classic because it has no cgi or is old.
Jackson Lee
Connor Smith
Yeah, it’s kinda mediocre especially now. Still not SoP material
Liam Ortiz
The comic makes the backstory out to be important but it's half thought out.
Gavin Morgan
Oh god, don't get me started on those fucking live-action remakes.
Bentley Wood
Not that user but don't be a fucking autist. The user asked someone what their thoughts were to gain an insight into them, not to have a constant back and forth. They aren't required to extend the coversation, and you sperging out helps nothing in terms of discussion
Adrian Thomas
Disagree. Both of those suck just as much.
Brayden Ortiz
It makes the backstory extremely important because it's what causes fucking SUPERMAN of people not only to retire, but to put people in a place literally called "The Gulag" and it's just glazed right on over
Camden Morris
>don't be a fucking autist
Take your own advice. I even said that I'm less mad at that particular person and more at Yea Forums in general for shit like that in actual discussion threads.
Christian Ramirez
>Marvels
>sucks
I get someone not liking Irredeemable, especially the ending, but Marvels is great even if the art suffers the same problem Kingdom Come does
Jacob Miller
I don’t think it’s good, but I don’t think it’s actively bad or detracts from the story. It’s just there to serve the narrative being told. I understand this might sound autistic, but I genuinely don’t care about mischaracterisations as long as it’s not an already established Earth.
The only one I agree with you on is the characters being set pieces, but they do make for some nice art to gawk at although they hurt the pacing
Christian Nguyen
Charles Jackson
Alexander Baker
>I genuinely don’t care about mischaracterisations as long as it’s not an already established Earth.
I'm like this too, but you have to still establish and put work into why these characters are like that and how it happened to justify those changes
Caleb Harris
Then complain when it happens instead of venting of someone because you got triggered by what normal people would class as a civil exchange.
AUTIST
U
T
I
S
T
Jace Edwards
Jace Brooks
Joshua Scott
Nolan Powell
>I don’t think it’s good, but I don’t think it’s actively bad
I don't think it's the worst thing ever, but it's below average and the constant dick sucking it receives makes me hate it.
Owen Robinson
Aiden Howard
Damn, I don’t even need that explaination to just accept Elseworlds stuff. Same for What Ifs as well
Aaron Baker
>discussion thread
I thought the title was
>Storytime of Pain
>Kingdom Come
In all honesty though, whatever you're mad at, you're pushing it. What made you mad wasn't directed at you and you're literally the old man yelling at cloud here, since no one gives a shit (aside from autists like me) and the argument barely included you in the first place.
Christian Diaz
Not that user but I read your posts above. The comic explains what it needs to, with um, exposition. While you might not "buy" it, it's all there. With Billy, he was lured into false safety by Luthor, then brainwashed by Mr Mind-style slugs. It's all in the damn book, man
Jackson Harris
Henry Allen
Caleb Young
>It's another contrarian thread
Why can't the casuals leave Yea Forums alone?
Elijah Gutierrez
It's still a valid point because that person, just like every other KC defender in this thread, have failed to actually talk about why they think this comic ins amazing. Keep your bitch fits in check, white knight.
Jeremiah Price
iconic
Levi Moore
>You MUST FACE this. If YOU don't, neither will the REST of us... and it JUST GOES ON.
And right here this is EVERYTHING i hate about Kingdom Come. Fucking Mark Waid and his fanwank of Superman.
Jose Ross
You can have discussions in storytimes, actually it's encouraged.
Connor Torres
Fuck you that was great
Connor Harris
No, it isn't. It's a terrible book that ruined a lot of DC characters for years to come. It was a slow-acting poison.
Camden Hill
Because they can't understand
>worst-case Elseworld characterisations
>Their headcanon doesn't override how the above
>Exposition within the comic
>Certain things only need limited elaboration with regard to backstory
Christian Lopez
I didn't say it wasn't in the book, but
>The comic explains what it needs to, with um, exposition.
this is the problem with it. Everything is hand waved in a couple sentences
Michael Wright
Can’t blame an Elseworlds for that though, blame the other writers for aping from this. Elseworlds are Elseworlds for a reason, usually
Isaac Green
Justin Anderson
>He thinks "white knight" is a gotcha
You missed using your npc meme pic. I beg you, post one. We all know you have it
David White
And another thing I hate about Kingdom Come is that it paints itself as some morally strong work of art, critiquing grimdark and shit and then it ends with hundreds of characters dying. Oh but it's okay because there's an extra scene at the end where Superman and Wonder Woman asks Batman to be their child's godfather and it's cheesy and wacky so it's all good.
Bentley Jackson
Bentley Baker
Zachary Lopez
I don't, sorry. I don't play along with all your shit memes that you've imported from other places. You did butt in to defend user's honor like an autist though.
Oliver Cook
Charles Clark
Michael Reed
Jeremiah Rivera
MARBLE SCRAPPING STEEL!
Isaac Myers
Alright, here’s my opinion: I don’t care too much for Kingdom Come. I think its alright, it exists mostly just to make a statement about 90’s image heroes and the like. There’s no point viewing it in any other context, you can say it aged poorly and that’s viewing it through the wrong lense, you could say the same thing about The Crucible because you aren’t living through McCarthyism. That’s a defeatist way of viewing media, stories shouldn’t have to expire when you only need a brief history lesson to understand them. Author’s intent matters, it’s something to keep in mind even when reading picture books.
On that note, I don’t even think this is Waid’s best work, nor do I like Waid as a person. I just don’t think this is SOP worthy. It’s not particularly laughable, it exists in a contained AU, and it’s all based of a fairly subjective thesis statement. I don’t need to agree with Mark Waid’s autistic raids on nineties capeshit to understand what he was trying to say, nor do I think characterization is the be all end all of an elseworlds like this.
SOP are supposed to be extraordinarily bad, not just controversial.
Op is being a chill dude, and I didn’t think this conversation warranted a multi paragraph essay. From his essay I could tell he values different things than I do and that’s okay. I really don’t know what you want me to say.
Joseph Jones
Brandon Scott
>Brief exposition is just a handwave
What's that old saying about brevity, OP?
Jack Clark
>it's another npc post
Why can't the casuals leave Yea Forums alone?
Kayden Lee
Admittedly I haven't read a lot of Elseworlds, but all of these are better. Quit trying to hand wave my complaints as "not muh"
>The Doom That Came to Gotham
>Gotham by Gaslight
>Red Son
>Generations
>World's Funnest
>The Nail
Brody Cooper
Daniel Harris
Eli Foster
The problem with Kingdom Come is that while trying to criticize the 90's anti-heroes it ends up also portraying EVERY-FUCKING-CHARACTER just as badly. Fuck, Superman comes off worse than Magog in this shit. WAY WORSE! Then the epilogue shits all over the goddamn message. Actually, there's no goddamn message.
This is a shit comic. Plain and simple. If it wasn't for Alex Ross' great art it'd be considered a shit comic on par with JLA: Act of God.
Adrian Jenkins
Anthony Howard
I read the context of that bubble wrong at first, but now I think about it The Bystanders would actually be a pretty great name for a superhero team.
Asher Young
>and I didn’t think this conversation warranted a multi paragraph essay.
*on my part.
Damn it.
Nathan Walker
Xavier Gray
Robert Lewis
>it exists mostly just to make a statement about 90’s image heroes and the like
I don't think DC is the right place to do this. I think that making pastiches of said Image characters and properly developing the characters would have made the comic "good", but what you get is pretty pathetic and shallow. Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman are all assholes in this series, and the rest are barely "characters". This comics is literally "reee stop liking what I don't like".
Evan Miller
Robert Perry
Dominic Mitchell
Bentley Jenkins
Brandon Flores
No, it isn't because this comic transforms Superman as the only real hero of the story. The Justice League members without Superman continued presence to hold their hands and tell them what to do, either all lose their moral fiber or get complacent. Superman is the end all, be all of the whole goddamn universe.
Specially this Superman, who's a giant fuck-up.
Bentley Smith
Henry Williams
Alexander Taylor
I thought the message was clearly “heroes should be heroes again and stop moping”, but it’s been some time
Ethan Brown
It's almost like the comic doesn't criticise 90s trends through an optimistic tale of how to right wrongs and reset things to Siover Age DC, but how following dangerous trends sent it into a downward spiral it could never come out of until it was far too late. And there was little left to salvage. It's almost like that.
Noah Ross
This wasn't conceived as a Elseworlds, though.
Sebastian Wilson
Hunter Sanchez
Hudson Howard
>Artemis
>Azrael
>Thunderstrike
I'm sure there are more. Image was not the only place starting to focus on that kind of character
Carson Reed
Oliver Jenkins
Aaron Brown
Connor Morris
Ryan Barnes
Superman was the only one moping in this comic.
Adrian Cooper
No, it is "morally righteous dictators are angry the country has become a chaos and try to institute a dictatorship. They win. The end."
Luke Lee
Samuel Barnes
Lincoln Reyes
Ryder Lopez
Yeah, and the story more or less centers around him
They were right to do so in the context of this world
Aaron Foster
Aaron Long
DC was actually a pretty solid place to do this at the time. Back in the 90’s they were really bleeding money as Xwhatevers and Bloodcoreforce were becoming the norm. It’s not dissimilar to a modern image book coming out decrying legacy characters and events.
I don’t think the book is anything beyond an alright elseworlds. KC itself portrays WW and Supes in the wrong for fucking off like that.
Jeremiah Miller
Jack Price
No, they weren't. They made everything fucking worse.
Jace Ortiz
Brayden Ortiz
>They win
Hang on
>they start a prizon they can't maintain
>characters who criticise methods are clearly positioned as correct
>massive fight breaks out that
>lose authority given by UN
>UN nuke half of them
>they back off while the world rebuilds itself to something hopefully better
Wow, they really got that dictatorship
Luis Fisher
>legitimate discussion
>in a Yea Forums thread
It’s a spring break miracle!
Robert White
Carson James
Evan Edwards
I was half kidding. The dictatorship fell apart anyways
Logan Campbell
Read this
Henry Foster
And then Superman instead of opening a dialogue, tells the UN what is going to happen. He even put himself in the role of the king of meta-humans. Fucking hell.
Dylan Thompson
Ethan Sanchez
Caleb Thomas
What else is he supposed to reply with? Is he supposed to write a several paragraph response about why OP's subjective opinion is wrong? He asked for an explanation of why OP thought Kingdom Come was SoP, and he got one.
Aiden Turner
Jackson Barnes
> Kingdom Come
> Storytime of Pain
"Look at me mommy, im contrarian! LOOK AT ME!"
Matthew Nelson
Caleb Stewart
Blake Murphy
Samuel Gutierrez
>He tells the UN what is going to happen
>What is going to happen is
That they are going to live peacefully and avoid interfering with people. Are you ok, user?
Jace Richardson
Tyler Flores
You are what killed Yea Forums. Bots that think writing "that's just your opinion" or "that's just my opinion" is a valid argument to be used every.single.time.
Luis Ramirez
Adrian Sanders
Brandon Long
>Bots
NPC synonym detected
Post an NPC meme. You definitely *do* have one
Joseph Stewart
Austin Jones
it's...not an argument. Not everything has to be an argument
Hudson Phillips
Parker Peterson
And so ends a story written by an out-of-touch whack job stiffly drawn by a pin-up god. A story that raises a few good points while completely destroying the characters it uses to tell it while the art picks up the slack. At the very least making this thread sparked some conversation. In hindsight a lot of you were right and it may not have deserved the Storytime of Pain label, but it is certainly not one of the greatest comics ever made.
Eli Brown
That doesn't change anything. Superman says that he'll stop placing himself above humanity, but does he follow his own words and turn himself in for the crime of creating a sovereign state inside the US soil, kidnapping American citizens to house them in a literal Gulag, entertain ideas of execution, and starting a war? Does he? NO! He flies away because he knows the UN can't do a thing about it.
If anything, he places himself in a position of higher importance by assuming the role of the representative of meta-humans. As if he was the King of Supers.
Lincoln Hill
>That they are going to live peacefully and avoid interfering with people.
After they've created a war and interfered with people? And the epilogue still shows them interfering on everyone's lives.
Luis Wright
Agreed
Alexander Perez
What point does turning himself in make? It benefits no one. He left and followed his word to not lord over humans after all
>assuming the role of the representative of meta-humans
He literally was, at that point. The rest allowed him to speak for them
Jace Brooks
>In hindsight a lot of you were right and it may not have deserved the Storytime of Pain label
It deserves the Storytime of Pain label. The only ones butthurt about it are the fanboys that speed-read the comic because of the pretty art and have this comic rated as their top 10. This is a highly overrated piece of trash. It's because of this comic that in every fucking event Superman is written as a indecisive fool, Wonder Woman as a blood-thirsty instigator, and Batman as a bitchy truth-bomber
Ryan Taylor
Think critically before making a SoP thread then. At the time it was made, Waid was "out of touch" by not following soon-dated 90s trends that people no longer support. The old man yelling at cloud is (You), OP, because he "mischaracterised" your headcanon. And some idiotic refusal to acknowledge that Billy was affected by brain slugs that have DCU precursors.
>Not muh in action
Alex Ross was one of the ones who pitched the comic, on the condition of his being the artist.
Aaron Ross
Newfags don't care.
Brody Gomez
It's unreasonable to blame this comic for the works for other writers, when it is the choice of those writers to ape this comic in the first place
Liam Perry
By providing medical care and help with rebuilding, not by superheroing. If you can't tell the difference go back to reading Liefeld
Joshua Allen
Just because you say it ages poorly doesn't mean it did.
Daniel Thomas
I call em like I see em
Benjamin Sanders
I know this comic has a lot of bad in it, and I know Ross' art doesn't excuse a single sentence lgs bad writing, but I want the bat-hug hung on top of my fucking bed, Ross really outdid himself in those two panels.
Adam Perry
I'm not seeing that sweet jpg, user
Luke Sanders
Agreed. It was always bad.
Jaxson Thompson
of bad writing*
My bad
Owen Harris
I think the writing is fine. I'm not sure how else he could handle the exposition due to the length of this.
Aiden Anderson
OBSESSED
Owen White
It's just a bit of fun.
Regardless of reason, thanks for sharing, I liked the read.
Jordan Powell
I'm just surprised at your restraint. You're a true credit to people who call others NPCs. A mighty fine member of your autist class
Carson Bell
Thanks OP, first time reading and I think I liked it
Henry Price
Dear diary,
Today OP was a humongous faggot, as expected, but at least he gave spotlight to a really good comic
Juan Cruz
>What point does turning himself in make? It benefits no one.
It would make his words have weight. It would be a humbly act that he sees the errors of his ways. It would be the right thing to do. The real Superman would have done that.
>and followed his word to not lord over humans after all
HE'S STILL DOING IT! The epilogue fucked the ending because it shows that the Trinity are still messing around.
Superman placed himself as a representative of all meta-humans, whether they like it or not, and is using his powers without any sanction to clean up the sovereign state he built.
Batman's in control of the Legion of Doom and torturing them into service with shock therapy. Batman learned nothing. He's still the same fascist who was controlling Gotham with an iron grip using bat-robots.
Wonder Woman's brought all the "unruly" meta-humans to Paradise Island for them to be indoctrinated in people's ways. The same Wonder Woman that confessed she was taught to rule by force and that placed meta-humans in Gulags before advocating for their execution.
Is that the lesson? That the trinity should rule above all because they know best despite the comic showing their fuck ups one after the other?
Fuck, look at this. Superman's still acting that HUMANITY WAS IN THE WRONG. Not him. HUMANITY DROVE HIM AWAY. It wasn't him that turned his back to humanity in a bitchy attitude because they didn't follow his wishes. His only mistake was LETTING HUMANITY DRIVE HIM AWAY. This man learned nothing. He's still placing himself above the rest. It's his way, or the high-way. He won't even consider that the blame rests on him.
Connor Torres
Seconded. Any chance to read this is cool. Too bad OP's retarded. What a monkey's paw
William Ross
Hey OP, I know you don't like this comic, but as a first time reader and a comiclet I really enjoyed it a lot, so thank you for posting.
Charles Long
Faggots with terrible taste. I bet you're all Superman fanboys. Only a Superfag would enjoy this comic because it places their favorite character in a place of importance.
Samuel Mitchell
Stop spamming you fucking retarded newfag. Everyone can see the post counter didn't go up.
Dominic Hill
I think cleaning up his act and returning to assist people is a better way of apology than fucking shutting yourself in a jail cell is. And you are insane if you think the “messing around” is the same shit he did before. Working alongside people to help them is very different than declaring yourself as their rulers
Henry Phillips
Humanity did drive him away. Read the flashbacks. Both sides were at fault at the start. Superman and the metahumans failed to bring it back after the problems became too big. The supervillains are not gonna magically become good. The comic isn't about a world gone wrong being saved and everything turning out hopeful and like the Silver Age never ended.
John Hughes
I own zero Superman comics. Way to out yourself as not liking this because you hate Superman tho.
Owen Parker
>vanished inside a scared little boy
One way to spend your retirement, I guess.
Carter Foster
>Working alongside people to help them is very different than declaring yourself as their rulers
Point to me where he's working alongside people. The epilogue only show Superman cleaning up HIS GULAG. Not anyone where else while talking with mayors or cops. It's him in isolation cleaning up his SOVEREIGN STATE
Then you've Superman and Wonder Woman announcing a super-baby, perhaps the most powerful one yet, and asking Batman to be the child's godfather because they fear THEY'RE ILL-EQUIPPED to raise a child with any shred of humanity. Pretty much confessing that they've none. Because they don't see themselves as human. I'm certain that this super-child will turn fine being taught by Batman, who this comic showed to be a fascist motherfucker.
Nathaniel Brown
Just skimming through the thread and wut at the Wonder Woman point
Isn’t it extremely obvious that she realised her initial ways are wrong in the end? The whole student to beginning teacher thing is such an obvious tell that I can’t imagine anyone missing it. How else do you suggest they deal with the meta humans? Lock them away forever?
Jeremiah Adams
>Humanity did drive him away.
No, they didn't. They simple cheered and acquitted Magog from killer the Joker. Fucking Joker, of all people. Sure, they were wrong, but was that ALL of humanity? No. Just a few dumb burguers. Superman, though, got butthurt by that and wrote off ALL OF HUMANITY.
Superman was wrong in everything, face no repercussions, and continue to err
Hudson Lee
These so called criticisms are just empty bloviating. Complaining about mischaracterizations in an elseworlds and saying that the story doesn't "unfold organically" or "justify itself" ironically sounds more like an old man ranting at clouds than the entirety of this comic.
Samuel Evans
>Isn’t it extremely obvious that she realised her initial ways are wrong in the end? The whole student to beginning teacher thing is such an obvious tell that I can’t imagine anyone missing it.
She still shouldn't be the one to teach the new meta-humans. Specially not the amazons, who we were told by Diana to value force.
>How else do you suggest they deal with the meta humans? Lock them away forever?
Treat them as human beings and specially not hand them over Superman and Wonder Woman, the people that kidnapped them, thought about executing them, and made a huge war between them? What about that?
Austin Powell
But the people want him to fucking clean up his act you dense fuck. He’s not reinstating himself as humanity’s leader at all
Ryder Hughes
I love Superman, i just hate certain brain-dead fanboys of his.
Wyatt Foster
Exhibit 1,567,469 that this board has been dead for a long long time.
Owen Clark
>Every character looks like a middle aged out of shape failed actor in cosplay
Ed Piskor pointed out a Alex Ross cover where he was so on autopilot he drew the fucking hinge joint in the arm of the action figure he was using as a reference. It's Thor's arm
Adam Gutierrez
This was the first and only comic I ever read. I was really young at the time, probably 9? I was so fucking confused but I loved the art (I would stare without reading for hours). I remember feeling like the heroes were almost like legends, so much history alluded to but lost to time.
Years later and I still never went back and explored cape stuff.
Levi Baker
>But the people want him to fucking clean up his act you dense fuck.
WHAT PEOPLE? You, reading the comic? Because the UN was scared and had no say in the matter.
Alex Ross original ending of Superman just fucking off to the stars was a much, MUCH better ending. At least in the original comic Superman knew the problem was him.
Jace Watson
ITS AN ELSEWORLDS
Jonathan Gonzalez
>She still shouldn't be the one to teach the new meta-humans. Specially not the amazons, who we were told by Diana to value force.
The entire fucking point is that they are changing their values under the new Diana, holy shit
>Treat them as human beings
They still committed crimes, and they still need to be rehabilitated. WW might not be the best choice but handing them to non-meta humans isn’t either
Angel Martin
user, you are the brain dead and your attempt at an insult now makes even less sense
James Murphy
IT WASN'T ORIGINALLY AN ELSEWORLDS STORY, IT ONLY BECAME THAT YEARS AFTER WHEN RE-RELEASED AS TPBs. IT WAS ORIGINALLY TREATED AS THE CANON END-GAME OF THE DCU.
Jordan Hall
The complaints against the characterization aren't that they don't act like they do normally in canon. It's that they're poorly written and despite the fact that the story wants them to be seen as heroes, they act like pissy asshole dictators.
James Rogers
BY WHO YOU FUCKING FAGGOT. POINT TO ONE EXAMPLE.
Thomas Green
>Because the UN was scared and had no say in the matter.
Wut? They literally wanted to wipe it off the map
Isaac Butler
The complaints were shit like there's not enough Green Lantern and Flash. I.e. the rantings of a rage filled idiot.
Easton Harris
But...that’s the whole point? They stopped being heroes, and need to come back as heroes in the end
David Evans
The story goes out of its fucking way to explain that the fascistic/authoritarian ways caused more harm than good.
I am willing to accept that beings who value justice above all else will eventually overstep their bounds. It makes sense.
Andrew Fisher
>The entire fucking point is that they are changing their values under the new Diana, holy shit
The problem is that we never see that Diana changed her ways. Nor Superman. Or Batman. We are just told. What we see is Superman using his powers to clean the patch of land he took by force as his base with the Justice League, Wonder Woman taking all the meta-humans to her island of violent dykes to be indoctrinated (possibly against their will), and Batman being handed all the villains so he can torture as his slaves.
>They still committed crimes, and they still need to be rehabilitated.
Why aren't Superman and Wonder Woman then being jailed and rehabilitated, huh? Their crimes were even bigger.
This is like if Darkseid after invading Earth and provoking the death of thousands, was given the control of the Justice League as his prisoners, because hey, the Justice League defended itself during the war and are just as responsible for the tragedy.
Owen Thomas
yeah tell that to the elseworlds logo.
Gabriel Evans
They were right to.
Charles Smith
They also *did* nuke the shit out of it
John Howard
>and need to come back as heroes in the end
Too bad it didn't happen.
Christian Peterson
You're reading into things that simply aren't there.
Camden King
>We are just told
Shouldn’t this be enough? Do you really need a splash page showing everything? However, I agree that show don’t tell is an issue in this comic
>Why aren't Superman and Wonder Woman then being jailed and rehabilitated, huh?
Because they can do more good without
Isaiah Lewis
You're just making shit up to be angry about by deliberately misinterpreting a pretty straightforward text.
Andrew Reed
And so Superman is helping the UN by removing the rubble, eh?
Parker Thomas
>Because they can do more good without
Honestly, i wouldn't want Superman and Wonder Woman doing anything good after it. Specially when they show they learned nothing during the process.
No, i'm not. Tell me, why was Batman given the control of the Legion of Doom, which he confess that he enjoy torturing with electro-shock, after he had taken over Gotham with his bat-robots? He doesn't even say that the UN allowed. None of them do.
What UN? Superman's cleaning his Gulag. He didn't mention any UN.
You guys think i'm crazy, but reread the epilogue. They all tell each other what they decided to do and have done. They never talk about governing officials and enterprises helping them out. There's no talks of union with humanity. Just the three deciding to make things by their own and doing it.
Jaxon Walker
Legit complaint, you retard. Why put a character in a story if he ends up being a non entity? It's the writer's job to provide characterization for his cast and bad characterization is not as bad as no characterization.
Elijah Morris
You clearly have a tenuous grasp of the English language. It's ok that this book is too hard for you to understand.
Andrew Barnes
I've seen the light every movie, book, and TV show with background extras is a flaming piece of shit.
Gavin Smith
That's not what Diana says. She doesn't say anything about her becoming a better teacher. What she says is that the meta-humans she kidnapped didn't want to learn anything from her before, but after the massacre they went at hands of the Justice League and the UN they were scared into it.
Jack Sullivan
Nothing to see here guys, it's just a radical libertarian.
Alexander Peterson
No sweetie it says that the Gulag didn't work so they're trying a different approach.
Colton Hughes
Sure, i'm not American or English, and i'm a bit drunk, but that doesn't change my point. Show me where in the epilogue Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman talk about working in cooperation with the UN, the US government, or anything like it. Show me. There's none. The Trinity only talk about what THEY decided to do. What THEY are doing.
Jose Hill
>What WE went through gave THEM plenty of incentive.
She's talking about the other meta-humans, not her.
Elijah Ward
Would you go to this restaurant?
Jose Powell
First of all, fuck off to Yea Forums
Second of all, yes, if a movie, show, book whatever only focuses on 3 characters and the rest are set pieces then it most likely sucks. There are some exception of course but none of them are shitty capeshit for manchildren.
Sebastian Long
Except that the brief appearances of Flash and Green Lantern directly tie into the themes of the story, and you're the one who needs to fuck off back to Yea Forums because then you'll be at home with people who think cameos equate shitty writing, especially in comic books were they are king.
Daniel Powell
Nice job being a faggot op. I would have spamed scat had I come here sooner than see you disgrace SOP threads.
Ryder Adams
To be fair, while i shit on the depiction of the Trinity in this comic, i've to say... at least Alan Scott proved himself to have learned something by working directly with the UN as a representative of New OA.
Kevin Hughes
Kingcom Come fuckins sucks. I'm not even OP. Deal with it. It's a shitty story more preoccupied with fanwank Superman than telling a story, and it was so lost in it's masturbation of the character that forgot to portray him as a hero or a good person.
Justin Brown
It really didn't.
Jackson Baker
Even if you hate it, it still ruins the meaning of SOP.
Alexander Moore
SHOW ME IN THE EPILOGUE WHERE THE TURMOIL OF THE ENTIRE PREVIOUS STORY AMOUNTED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF HUMANITY AT THE HANDS OF SUPERHUMANS YOU DRUNK SHITSKIN
Austin Johnson
You've a shitty comic, with terrible portrayal of the DC character, and that had terrible influence on DC making the portrayal of its characters awful for years to come.
Cooper Gomez
In your opinion.
Jace Howard
It really did, in a very obvious way. If you weren't retarded.
Joseph Smith
Well I quite enjoyed that OP, even if you didn't. I admit to being a bit of a casual when it comes to capes and was actually lured in by the SoP label, so chalk me up as an accidental fan.
Also I have to ask, is slightly Giger-inspired looking girl first shown in and last shown in a character in her own right, or just an incidental character in this comic? I like her style.
Easton Thompson
No, this opens the fucking floodgates. Now anything anyone hates is going to be an SOP. I can't wait for that cerberus SOP.
Jaxon Clark
He's not wrong, it ruins the meaning of SOP.
Elijah Murphy
>terrible influence on DC
Was Kingdom Come the start of what Morrison called " Dad comics"?
Asher Gomez
Not an actual argument.
Colton Ramirez
I'm glad Yea Forums is waking up to the fact that Kingdom Come is the world's prettiest piece of shit.
Bentley Young
I'm glad Yea Forums is having fun dancing on the grave of another board.
Asher Bell
If i want to be a dick about it, i can easily make an argument that the epilogue give us indication that Superman and Wonder Woman's son will come out worse than Lara - Superman and Wonder Woman's daughter in Dark Knight Strikes Again and The Master Race - did, thanks to the shitty upbringing of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman. This, coupled with new indoctrinated meta-humans, taught by the amazons that the only possible way to achieve peace is by instituting order through force by any means necessary (see: ), will result in a future scenario where Superman and Wonder Woman's fucked up son will take over the world with his army of meta-humans because he sees the world of humans too chaotic.
Jayden Richardson
For the waitresses, yes
Lucas Jackson
Flash is constantly watching everyone fuck and masturbate.
Wyatt Watson
>what Morrison called " Dad comics"?
Redpill me on whatever this is.
Asher Powell
Where's the argument? All I see is shitty headcanon that is once again going out of its way to try and take the opposite meaning out of a straightforward comic book.
Angel Hill
You can blame the entirety of Infinite Crisis on this.
Jonathan Sanders
KC is flawed but saying its worth a storytime of Pain it's just ignorant and petty.
Oliver Reyes
Basically Morrison felt that late 90's to early 2000's DC was just old fans writing material that only appealed to them and not kids
Easton Peterson
>alex Ross refuses the draw Kyle or Wally
>still draws the variation of the 90's supermullet
I bet he was foaming at the mouth doing this page.
Dylan Turner
OLD GOOD NEW BAD: the comic
Kevin Flores
He is objectively wrong.
Nathan Cox
Yeah, that's accurate.
Isaac Clark
My argument is that the trinity learned nothing, didn't paid for any of their crimes, and were rewarded in the end by the mess they themselves created. I think i've proved myself.
It'd be one thing if the comic ended with Superman turning himself in for the many crimes he committed, blindly or not, and that drove them all to that tragedy. With the UN then deciding that they all shared the blame and allowing Superman to go free with him being allowed to fix the land as punishment/redemption. Wonder Woman going back to her island and being chewed by her mother, the queen, for being such a goddamn moron, and being forced to go some Herculean trial to prove herself. And Batman just giving everything he has away to the government and charities, since he had been controlling Gotham like a dictator for years, and doing community service as a doctor or something.
That would be an ending.
Anthony Reed
No you are objectively wrong. I can't wait till someone SOPs a comic you like op.
Isaac Johnson
It's the collective we, sweetie.
Brody Campbell
According to you Superman destroyed the UN instead of saving it. You are a retard.
Caleb Cox
Where the fuck did he save the UN? He invaded the UN and was going to kill everyone in there in a fit of rage. The priest was the one that saved the day. Did you read the fucking comic?
Jackson Perry
Did you read it? You seem to think he killed everyone there.
Luke Walker
You know very well what she's saying. That after the tragedy they went through - Justice League, the meta-humans, the Legion, the UN - the other meta-humans got scared into complying the the amazon's ways.
Jaxson Bell
I am objectively right, actually.
Carson Harris
Oh I forgot the meta-humans at the center of the story that she is directly referencing don't count.
Eli Allen
batman you're like school on sunday
Carter White
What's you're favorite comic? Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, perhaps?
Asher Reyes
He didn't kill them, but he lead them to that place. Lets roll back a bit.
Superman leading the Justice League decided to kidnap American citizens against their will without any oversight simple because these citizens had super-powers. Superman (and his Justice League) then took over an American state and turned into his own sovereign state where he created a literal Gulag to house the kidnapped American citizens. Wonder Woman, under Superman's leadership, constantly argued for the execution of said American citizens without any mock-up trial or anything. Then after a sneak attack by the Legion on said sovereign state lead to the escape of the kidnapped and incarcerated American citizens a fight ensued where Wonder Woman, under Superman's leadership, started to kill said kidnapped American citizens in retaliation for their escape. After this a war of epic proportions began that lead the UN to bomb the place in fear. Of course they'd fear the Justice League and the chaotic situation after all this shit.
Those are the crimes i blame Superman for. Crimes he brushed off because he's Superman. What will the UN do about him after he invaded the place and showed everyone he could have easily killed them all if he wanted?
But hey, Superman is the protagonist. Lets give him a happy ending where he can rebuild his sovereign state, imprison all the American citizens again, and have a super-baby to commemorate everything.
Adrian Davis
No.
Gavin Myers
Yeah, those are the ones that got an "incentive" to now obey her, otherwise she might as well kill them all like she attempted to when they escaped her Gulag the first time.
Ian Rodriguez
Kingdom Come.
Zachary Cruz
The problem with these type of comics is that the writer wants to write about what he thinks is a complex grey world, but at the same time wants Superman and Batman to have to the moral outlook of a fucking 5 year old. Killing is bad, guuuys. It makes Superman or Batman look to live in some kind of fantasy reality where everything can be solved nice and tidy by the end of the issue. The contrast is fucking glaring everytime they autisicly screech cause they can't align their two-dimensional outlook with some grimdark reality around them. Not saying they should change, but stop putting them in stories that are built to show how nothing makes sense in some bizare bastardization of deconstruction.
Elijah Nelson
>people in this thread don't like kingdom come
I knew OP was a fag, but you as well, anons?
Nathaniel Ross
So you'd be happier with Captain Marvel letting the bomb go off and kill everyone so that the precious UN, who the comic is clearly about, can have a happy ending. You're a fucking illiterate retard.
Leo Rivera
It's people upset at Waid over his tweets, read the thread before going on one of your highground acts.
Landon Johnson
>citation needed
Yeah chilling in Paradise is exactly the same as being imprisoned against your will in a literal Gulag.
Parker Campbell
What is then pussy? Or should I just ask you your favorite memes?
Wyatt Jenkins
No. Captain Marvel, differently from Superman, actually acted as a hero and saved as many as he could at the cost of his life. He placed their lives above his.
The kidnapped meta-humans also weren't in wrong. Not as much as the Justice League. They were the victims in this shit. Maybe each one of them had committed a crime or two abusing their powers, but then they'd have to be judge individually by it and not by the fucking Justice League. That's for sure.
What annoys me greatly about Kingdom Come is that this is a comic where the Justice League and specially the Trinity act as villains, but are treated in the end as heroes. It boggles my mind what the fuck Waid was thinking. I know he believes that Superman was perfect and his only sin was letting the wrong-headed humans force him away. Dude has no self-awareness at all.
Adam Reed
>Kingdom Come
>Storytime of Pain
YOU FUCKIN' KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When did people stop looking at things in context?
Isaiah Jenkins
They were imprisoned in the Gulag by Wonder Woman, in the first place. Same Wonder Woman that has now been instated as Queen of the Amazons. So yes, it is.
Brody Ward
Even in context of the times the comic fucking sucks, dude. The statement against the industry is blurred by all the other stupidity of the comic.
Brody Torres
Around 2013 I think.
Parker Clark
>When did people stop looking at things in context?
Since Scans Daily, Comics Alliance, Twitter, and Comicsgate
Elijah Flores
There is literally nothing in this comic stating that Superman is perfect and that the Justice League are outright heroes. It's literally the entire point of the comic. You are fucking dumb.
Gavin Cook
Same Wonder Woman that wanted to kill them all. Same Wonder Woman that know allows them to live in her sanctuary that doesn't allow outsiders.
Matthew Harris
Waid is goddamn awful and I hate him.
But that doesn't mean that KC wasn't great, it absolutely was and IS great.
Leo Reyes
Well that didn't work. The point is that they changed but didn't abandon the absolute core of their morals
Hunter Turner
I'm talking about Waid's statement. Waid and Ross fought during the production of the comic over and over to the point Ross stopped talking with Waid after it. Waid was against Superman ever doing something wrong because Waid believes Superman is and should be perfect. Ross wanted a more flawed Superman and less of a happy ending. The compromise was Waid allowing Superman to wrong only in turning his back to the world.
She's only allowing them in her sanctuary so she can indoctrinate them. Something she tried before before deciding to not bother and executing them all.
Jaxson Clark
>but didn't abandon the absolute core of their morals
They kinda did, or had none to begin with. Hell, the comic implies that without Superman the Justice League characters can't be heroes. They don't know how. Superman is their everything and even Superman is shown to be a "my way or the highway" kinda guy.
Brody Foster
I've nothing against Waid as a person or as a writer - loved several of his comics- but Kingdom Come is terrible outside of the art. Was and always will be.
Come at me, faggot.
Benjamin Cruz
And I'm talking about the text you fucking dumbass. The same text where Wonder Woman tried indoctrinination, outright execution, realized those didn't work, and tried to find a better way.
Samuel Gomez
You seem terribly upset.
Eli Foster
Came here to say this.
Kingdom Come is one of the greats.
Ian Johnson
>realized those didn't work, and tried to find a better way.
What better way? It's never shown. What we've in text is Wonder Woman saying that the meta-humans now are more inclined to listen to her after the tragedy the Justice League put them though. It's Wonder Woman gloating about getting her way now.
Alexander Gray
Not a comic.
Josiah Campbell
If you've a shit-taste and only pay attention to the pretty art, yes.
Jayden Gomez
The way that wasn't the Gulag or killing them all, you fucktard.
Dylan Lewis
You were talking specifically about Batman and Superman, which is what I was responding to. Superman and Batman both became dictators in a way. The comic isn't meant to be a happy one about Silver Age heroics saving the day, if read as meta-commentary. It's about how allowing trends at the time to go that far
>Would saturate the genre with heroes who were not people to look upto
>Would leave the universe itself in a state that it couldn't recover from
The second point is *the plot*. The story is not that Superman comes back and fixes everything by being nice. He fucks it up, and is a factor of metahumans being fucking nuked, after which he realises things have changed too much
William Martinez
The universe as in the DCU, not the real world, by the way. That'd be absurd. Just to clarify
Christian Cruz
Not to the guy screaming "What about the UN??????"
Zachary Campbell
How is this Storytime of Pain you imbecile
You really think KC is on the same level as Trouble, Amazons Attack, Civil War II or Marville?
Christopher Ross
If Amazon Attack had been drawn by Alex Ross from start to finish you guys would be defending it.
Charles Perry
He's the type of guy who thinks Batman should give all his money to charity.
Zachary Scott
In universe, Superman did almost obliterate the UN. This is also a part of Superman falling into despair and almost destroying what little was left. People here don't seem to understand what the comic is. They hear
>It's a criticism of 90's antiheroes
and expect it to be something it's not, so they're disappointed that everything sucks and the characters are assholes. When that assholery is commented on, and pointedly part of the story as things get worse.
Jackson Morris
We're on the same page, I was just taking another opportunity to tease the retard.
Henry Phillips
I know. I was trying to hammer in why he was retarded to anyone else on this thread. As well as anyone else sharing his opinions. We cool
Jonathan Hill
And if it had an ending where everyone decides superheroes are dangerous and should just fuck off you would be.
Eli Ross
>If this shitty comic was drawn by Alex Ross, you'll defend it, because I say so!!
Ryder Myers
>He fucks it up, and is a factor of metahumans being fucking nuked, after which he realises things have changed too much
And then is rewarded by his fuck-ups.
The problem with Kingdom Come is that "the plot" ruins the statement. The plot is about Superman being the only example of morality and heroism in the DCU and how everyone and everything goes to shit in his absence. Even Magog blames Superman for everything stating that if he had stuck around to continue to serve as the example of morality nothing bad would have ever happened. Shit only got bad because Superman retired and everyone was left to only count on and emulate Magog.
Angel Kelly
No, because it'd still be a bad comic, only with a sensible ending after all the stupid shit.
Easton Richardson
I see what people mean when they call Alex Ross' poses stiff. That flying pose looks like a guy is standing still and leaning over. The panel where he gets hit, it looks like Superman is lying on the ground
Brody Sullivan
IF HE WAS THE ONLY EXAMPLE OF HEROISM AND MORALITY HE WOULDNT HAVE LET THINGS GO TO SHIT YOU FUCKING MORON
Logan Turner
That's what superhero comics are all about, sensibility.
Joseph Morris
Just finished rereading this, and it still holds up as an amazing piece of work. Thanks for the storytime OP, even if think you think it sucks. And I'll second this .
Julian Reed
ITT: Anti-Kingdom Come people make fools of themselves
Jeremiah Rodriguez
It's overhyped as all get out. The old man character served absolutely no purpose, and even as a "what if the superheroes were EVIL" story, this lacks teeth. I wouldn't say it's BAD, but it's certainly not GOOD.
Aiden Sullivan
The problem with Kingdom Come is the fact that Mark Waid and Alex Ross had very different ideas for the story.
Alex Ross in his original pitch wanted a Civil War of sorts where a huge fuck-up would drag the old super-heroes out of their retirement and the whole thing would escalate into a war between a faction lead by Superman and another lead by Batman, ending in a calamity that would kill 99% of superheroes with only the Trinity surviving. Superman and Wonder Woman would then fuck off in their grief thus ending the Age of Superheroes. Ross had this story in mind ever since he learned as a kid about there was a gap between normal time and between Kamandi's time where the superheroes stopped existing for whatever reason.
Meanwhile Mark Waid wanted to do a story criticizing the industry's trends filled with new edgy anti-heroes and dark takes on old superheroes where they break. Waid story was more about Superman vs. Magog and how Superman represent the proper way of things and Magog the awful trend.
Because they couldn't fucking agree about anything we ended with this mess.
Zachary Reyes
THAT ONLY HAPPENED BECAUSE ROSS AND WAID DISAGREED ABOUT HOW THE STORY HAD TO GO. IT'S SHIT STORY WHERE EVERYTHING IS MUDDLED, DUMFUCK!
Jack Roberts
Anti-Kingdom Come raise good points while fanboys cry.
Jaxson Hall
Anti-Kingdom Come fail to understand plain text or the explanations of it
Jack Allen
Matrix, she's called Trix here though
Ian Richardson
>That guy has to paint himself green every fuckin' day as if his job wasn't shitty enough
Carter Moore
It's not as if the comic makes no sense and is shit, am i right?
David Collins
Thanks, dude.
Nicholas Flores
Yeah, superhero comics is all about being shit and having shit endings.
Carson Walker
I have no issue with Waid (his Flash and Impulse runs are great) but KC almost reads like a strawman comic, and I find OP's qualifier of "old man yelling at clouds" perfectly cromulent.
Other issues people have with it include establishing Diana being a sword-wielding bloodthirsty warrior, or Ross' art being too static for comics.
Just saying, disliking KC was a thing before the casualgators came around.
Charles Williams
But things don't change for the better. Superman doesn't change. He's the same. Then he gets rewarded.
Kayden Butler
>Yea Forums 2012
KC is great
>Yea Forums 2019
KC is cringe
Also fuck mods and niggers
Ethan King
>establishing Diana being a sword-wielding bloodthirsty warrior
This is extremely stupid. This is treated as a bad thing in universe, but was treated as a good thing by other writers like a decade later. Waid is not to blame for that. KC was criticising *terrible* trends that people don't look at fondly, including other writers.
Ian Rogers
>things don't change for the better
Yes, I already said that things got worse. Learn to read, fag
Landon Hill
THE WHOLE TEXT WHICH SHOULDNT BE THAT HARD TO PICK UP ON AS ITS A FUCKING PICTURE BOOK IS ABOUT MORAL RELATIVISM AND PRAGMATISM VS HEROISM LEARN HOW TO FUCKING READ INSTEAD OF PARROTING AUTHOR INTERVIEWS
Lucas Thompson
Yeah, but the epilogue ends with Wonder Woman being rewarded for becoming a sword-wielding bloodthirsty warrior.
Connor Robinson
It's not as if people can hold to contradictory thoughts in their head without decrying the source material they derive from as stupid, right?
Mason Bailey
Superhero comics *are*, sweetie.
William Bell
>for becoming a sword-wielding bloodthirsty warrior
There is no reward. The Trinity give up their original mission of using their skills or powers to help humanity the way they chose years ago to become part of relief efforts. Her being bloodthirsty kicked off the fight that ended in the nuke. Read the comic.
Jace Peterson
Fair enough on the Diana thing.
The rest though is the issue: it's a comic that exists to make a meta criticism. Not only does that mean that people might disagree with the criticism, but even people who agree with his sentiment (like me) can find the execution clumsy or the statement not particularly making for an interesting comic.
Jackson Barnes
No, read the comic again and pay attention. Wonder Woman was relived from her status by the amazons because she was too "soft". She confess to Superman that she began to see this punishment as just and her previous stance as wrong. Wonder Woman was influenced into becoming more bloodthirsty and pragmatic by the amazons.
Then she was rewarded with the crown for her role in subduing the new metas during the tragedy. She was pretty much rewarded by her people for getting worse.
Asher Robinson
SHOW ME THE HEROISM!
Juan Ortiz
READ THE FRONT COVER!
Blake Sanchez
My favorites were always this stretchy dude and the Longhorn. Based Texan Alex Ross.
Carter Ramirez
Or maybe it was for going to the brink of violence and then deciding to advocate for a different way after coming to a realization, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Nolan Hill
>but even people who agree with his sentiment (like me) can find the execution clumsy or the statement not particularly making for an interesting comic
This is all subjective. It's not worth responding to. These are vague statements that apply to any meta commentary, and lack any actual substance. Fuck outta here with that, and reconsider how you approach calling something SoP worthy
Jacob Ward
The comic message is muddled by the stupid plot. The comic isn't even subtle about its message. Here:
That's the big criticism the comic has to make. Superman, representing the old superhero comics, good. Magog, representing the trends of the time, bad. The other characters like Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, and so on are even there to represent the dark takes on the old DC characters so popular at the time, with the comic showing that without Superman in their lives to show them the way they all got morally bankrupted by the changing times.
It's not fucking subtle at all. The problem is the third act. This was still very much Alex Ross' comic and he wanted his big super-hero fight that ends with a bomb and almost everyone dead. He wanted the big end of the superheroes. So Superman, still very much representing the old superhero comics, had go on this wild ride where he lets everything escalate into a stupid war. The problem is because he's still very much representing and leading the old heroes everything that happens ends up being his blame as well. This ends up muddling the fucking message. Even the epilogue pushed by Ross fucked it up.
Then Waid and Ross fought anyone over stupid shit, because Waid wanted to do a sequel where the Justice League get to be heroes again and Ross was against it because he had been dreaming about writing the big end of the superheroes since he was a teenager and there shouldn't be any superheroes after.
Michael Evans
Read what i wrote. Wonder Woman told Superman her people found her too soft. Her people believe in bringing peace through strength. She changed into a bitch to satisfy her people. Then because of her actions her people, that still very much believe in peace through strength, crowned her queen. And these zealots, as Batman calls them, are now holding all the metas prisoners.
Tell me what is good about that?
James Evans
Gonna cap this thread off from posting some spreads from World's Greatest Superheroes
Dylan Adams
That's not what the comic is about. Its about the grey areas between good and evil. It's not muddled, you're just stupid.
Robert Taylor
Thomas Bennett
And that ends with dictators and murderers being given power and living happy, fulfilling lives.
Cooper Russell
Julian Murphy
The "end of the superheroes plot" makes no sense, and has been parroted in this thread a dozen times. Ross heard of Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes pitch and wanted to do something similar to end where Constantine and whoever it was caused two factions of superheroes to all kill each other.
Superman is *not* meant to represent the way of old superheroes in an overall positive way. The comic also isn't subtle about agreeing that he's acting as a dictator without having any real authority, and escalating things.
>Things went bad
>Superman tried to step in
>There were so many new, corrupt heroes that he thought the solution had to be extreme
>Many people push back on him for this
>The prisoners wanting *out* is not shown to be wrong
>The UN nuke them after things escalate
>The nuke leads to the metahumans calming down to live with what's left
The leadup to the ending works fine
in context
Jayden Campbell
For a comic to be considered a Storytime of Pain it just needs to be agreed by most to be a shitty comic. Kingdom Come qualify.
Landon Ross
>five hundred posts in five hours
I haven't seen a non-news/happening/capeshit film thread move this fast before.
Matthew Kelly
They're not dead or in a Gulag.
Ian Thompson
Robert Barnes
>by most
no. Only by people who still want everything to be their Liefeldshit
Andrew Jenkins
Oh, they're in a gulag, alright.
Carson Russell
Leo Reyes
I hate Liefeld and find KC shitty.
Nolan Bell
Nolan Richardson
That's literally the opposite of what happens in the comic, as the whole point is about the powerful becoming more connected with the weak after separating themselves. Fucking dumbass.
Zachary Bell
Evan Perez
Wonder Woman did not grow up in a gulag.
Anthony Robinson
Levi Jones
First, Ross hadn't read Twilight of the Superheroes yet when he pitched this. He was told about it only after the fact.
Second, it doesn't work at all.
That's what the comic tells us, but not what it show us. That's why the comic is shitty. What the comic show us is Superman rebuilding his Gulag without any mention that the UN/US let him, is Wonder Woman becoming a queen and holding all the metas hostage, is Batman enslaving the Legion with glee, is Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman raising the next Magog.
Brayden Howard
Joseph Ramirez
Now since you're a shit-for-brains I'll overexplain the way you want everything overexplained.
While Silver Age morals are overall meant to be more noble than, I don't know, recklessly getting people get killed like Magog and co going after Parasite, Superman's *actions* are criticised repeatedly in-comic. Either take a reading comprehension class, or don't read anything else. Clearly you have issues with reading.
Lucas Anderson
No, by the Paradise Island is a Gulag for the new metas. They're there against their will, scared into obeying, and being held prisoner by violent zealots.
Colton Lopez
Juan Gomez
That's what the comic both shows and tells us, and you are a drooling retard with and autistic obsession with the United Nations trying to convince everybody of your headcanon.
Evan Gray
Hudson Turner
>Superman's *actions* are criticised repeatedly in-comic. Either take a reading comprehension class, or don't read anything else. Clearly you have issues with reading.
I'm aware of this. It's why i'm saying the comic makes no sense. It's trying to sell a statement while muddling that same statement with some dumb plot. Superman is criticized and even admit that he let others drive him to be wrong, but again because the comic is shit Superman doesn't change and keeps on carrying on doing dumb shit.
Jayden Perez
According to your headcanon, I don't see a prison anywhere.
Samuel Campbell
Plast one
Thomas Sanders
I'm not OP you vindictive retard, and of course it's subjective, I all but said it myself in the post you replied to. And yes, I have similar issues with other meta comics when they focus on what the writer doesn't like in comics
William Collins
He rejoins the human race after turning his back on them you fucking dummy.
Evan Bailey
THE ONLY REASON I MENTION THE UN OR THE US IS BECAUSE THE COMIC ENDS WITH THIS BIG STATEMENT ABOUT HOW SUPERMAN WON'T PLACE HIMSELF ABOVE THE PEOPLE ANYMORE BUT INSTEAD WORK WITH THEM AND THEN NEVER MENTION THE FUCKING "PEOPLE" ANYMORE. It just shows Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman gloating about getting their way.
Levi Davis
By making a super-baby with Wonder Woman? By fearing that the baby will grow without any human perspective?
David Howard
THE COMIC IS NOT ABOUT THE "PEOPLE" OR THE UN STOP ACTING LIKE HAVING THE PROTAGONISTS APPEAR IN THE EPILOGUE IS A CRIME YOU FUCKING MONGOLOID
Matthew Phillips
The amazon soldiers surrounding them with spears look pretty ominous.
Adam Roberts
BY NOT LIVING IN ISOLATION YOU FUCKING MORON
Nolan Bailey
So who's the Batman with the axe in the topright supposed to be?
Hudson King
More or less ominous than the Gulag?
Noah Harris
IT'S ABOUT NOTHING BUT STUPID SHIT THEN, BECAUSE FOR A COMIC NOT ABOUT "PEOPLE" IT SURE BLAMES A LOT ON "PEOPLE".
WONDER WOMAN DOESN'T COUNT "HUMAN". OTHERWISE SHE WOULDN'T ASK BATMAN TO BE HER CHILD'S GODFATHER BECAUSE SHE'S SCARED OF THE KID GROWING UP WITHOUT ANY HUMANITY.
Easton Sanders
Equal bouts, i guess. Wonder Woman still controls their destiny and she has proven to be a mean bitch who can and will execute you.
Josiah Smith
JUST BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY HAVE THE READING COMPREHENSION OF A TODDLER DOESNT MAKE SOMETHING STUPID GO BACK AND ACTUALLY READ IT AND YOULL SEE THAT SUPERMAN TURNED HIS BACK ON HUMANITY AFTER LOIS DIED AND THATS THE CRUX OF THE ENTIRE STORY
Liam Rivera
Even as someone who dislikes it I know that the consensus is that it's a masterpiece
Carson Roberts
And before anyone say Batman, Batman doesn't count as human either. That guy... that guy ain't alright. Just saying.
Nolan Myers
We'll take a trip to Fiji and the the Russian Gulag and we'll see which one you like more. I'm guessing the one that's objectively worse.
Nathaniel Morgan
By stupid dumb fucks.
Zachary Foster
WELL, NOTHING CHANGED THEN, BECAUSE HIM TURNING HIS PELVIS TOWARD WONDER WOMAN CERTAINLY DOESN'T FIX THAT.
Jaxson Harris
Hey, man. All those cute Kangas doesn't change the fact that they're in danger and can be executed at any moment. Your ass won't be any less fucked if you're held hostage in South America, no matter how many trees and apples there are around you. You know?
Christian Robinson
HOW ABOUT NOT LIVING IN ISOLATION AND BECOMING CLARK AGAIN YOU COMPLETE WASTE OF LIFE
Andrew Anderson
Doesn't really matter.
Samuel Hughes
According to your shitty headcanon.
Isaac Adams
OH, YEAH. HE PUT ON THE GLASS. THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING. HE LIVING IN ISOLATION IN FAR-AWAY FARM AND NOT EVEN HAVING TIME TO PROPERLY TAKE A SHIT BETWEEN THE BANGING SESSIONS WITH WONDER WOMAN MEANS NOTHING. THE FACT THAT HE'S DOING IT WHILE WEARING GLASSES IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.
Zachary Fisher
>lobo wuz here
kek
Asher Ward
ITS CALLED SYMBOLISM STOP SKIPPING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Hunter Lewis
Woops, was meant for
Angel Long
No, according to the comic itself. Wonder Woman said so herself here . Her people gave up on her for being too soft. The meta-humans are with them now. Being taught their stupid views the same way Wonder Woman was.
Evan Campbell
That's not the epilogue you unbelievably stupid shitstain
Samuel Bailey
EMPTY SYMBOLISM IS SHITTY SYMBOLISM. THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THIS COMIC. IT WANTS TO SPREAD A MESSAGE, BUT THEN FUCK IT ALL UPS BY OTHER STUPIDITY INVALIDATING EVERYTHING, THUS CREATING A INCONSISTENT MESS THAT LEAVES ALL THE CHARACTERS LOOK BAD.
Ryder Long
ONLY THE WEAK SUCCOMB TO BRUTALITY
Camden Jones
YOU STILL FAILED TO RECOGNIZE IT AS SYMBOLISM OUTING YOURSELF AS A FOREIGN IDIOT THAT HAS NO BUSINESS EVEN ATTEMPTING TO UNDERSTAND FUNNY BOOKS
Jayden Moore
I know, but it is an indication of how the amazons are in this comic.
Waid admitted he knew nothing about Wonder Woman and that he felt irked by her entire concept because she was this warrior that fought for peace which he found to be stupid. So he takes a dump on her and her amazons throughout the comic.
EITHER WAY the point i'm making is that Wonder Woman was crowned queen by the amazons after the went to war with the meta-humans. Now the meta-humans are against their will in Paradise Island and scared into learning from the amazons. It's not any different from when they were in Diana's Gulag.
Chase Price
I FUCKING KNEW WHAT THE SYMBOLISM MEANT BECAUSE THE COMIC DOESN'T LET IT HANG IN THE AIR SUBTLY, BUT OUTRIGHT STATE WHAT IT FUCKING MEANS. THAT'S NOT MY POINT. MY POINT IS THAT ALL THE COMICS MESSAGES AND SYMBOLISM COME UP EMPTY BECAUSE THE COMIC NEVER FOLLOWS THROUGH WITH THEM. THE COMIC ALWAYS DEDICATE TIME TO SOME OTHER STUPID SHIT THAT MUDDLES THE WHOLE THING. THAT'S WHY KINGDOM COME SUCKS!
Chase Nelson
It's literally one panel of a comic that you are extrapolating to contradict the entire content of the text by inventing your own interpretation. Because you are dumb.
Wyatt Martin
TOO BAD EVERYONE WAS REWARDED FOR IT!
Robert Martinez
>n-n-nuh-UH. YOU'RE the casual!!!1!!
Adrian Robinson
YOUR POINT IS THAT ITS A SHITTY COMIC BECAUSE WE DIDNT GET A HUNDRED PAGES AT THE END EXPLORING THE RAMIFICATIONS IT HAD ON THE UNITED NATIONS AND INSTEAD FOCUSED ON THE PROTAGONISTS DISCUSSING THE THEMES OF BOOK WHICH YOU SOMEHOW STILL FAIL TO UNDERSTAND
Nathaniel Williams
What part of "it's an alternate universe" do you not get?
Brody Ramirez
No, i'm just taking what the comic gives me and thinking logically about its implications. The difference between you and me is that you're taking everything the comic throws at you at face value and buying into everything while brushing off everything weird or that doesn't work. Meanwhile i'm actually thinking about this shit and seeing that the comic is full of wholes and badly made.
Christopher Murphy
ITS AN AMBIGUOUS BUT HOPEFUL ENDING, SOMETHING YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF COMPREHENDING BECAUSE MARK WAID IS ABOVE YOUR READING LEVEL
Noah Thompson
>Kingdom Come
>SoP material
Pick one, you prancing la-la homo man
Benjamin Collins
Levi Watson
The basic premise is weird. It's about superheroes. Retard.
Henry Hernandez
Basedsoy and onionspilled
Camden Baker
Julian Robinson
Jack Sullivan
Angel Taylor
NO, MY POINT IS THAT THE COMIC DECIDED TO WASTE PAGES ON POINTLESS WANK INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH WHAT THE CHARACTERS SAY OR THE COMIC MANY MANY MESSAGES. BECAUSE WE ALL NEEDED TO SEE BATMAN GLOAT ABOUT TORTURING THE LEGION OF DOOM INTO COMPLIANCE WITH HIS BATROBOTS AND CHOCK-COLLARS INSTEAD OF.... I DON'T KNOW, SHOWING THAT BATMAN IS NOT A DERANGED DICTATOR ANYMORE.
Charles Myers
Grayson Davis
So what’s The thesis statement of this thread?
Connor Sanchez
HOPEFUL ABOUT WHAT? SUPERMAN AND WONDER WOMAN RAISING THE NEW MAGOG? SUPERMAN REBUILDING HIS GULAG AS KING OF THE METAS? WONDER WOMAN INDOCTRINATED ALL THE REMAINING METAS TO HER PEOPLE'S VIOLENT WAYS? BATMAN GETTING HIS ROCKS OFF TORTURING PEOPLE INTO COMPLIANCE?
Julian Murphy
DO YOU SHIT YOUR PANTS AND START CRYING EVERY TIME A SMALL DETAIL ISNT WRAPPED UP IN A STORY? DO YOU NOT SEE THE BASIC SYMBOLISM BEHIND BATMAN EATING A BURGER IN A SUPERHERO RESTAURANT WITH PEOPLE HE PREVIOUSLY OPPOSED? DO YOU NEED SOMEONE TO CHANGE YOUR DIAPER?
Chase Kelly
Tripfag yells at fag op. Also Kingdom Come was most certainly a published book.
Grayson Robinson
The reception for Kingdom Come is way more mixed than either side realized and that Yea Forums can get some actual discussion done still
Benjamin Russell
Kingdom Come fucking sucks and ruined DC for decades. It's worse than Watchmen. At least Watchmen was a good comic.
Jackson Young
THAT THE WORLD WASNT DESTROYED AND THAT LIFE GOES ON, AND THOSE WITH POWER ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILTY AND DOING THEIR BEST. SERIOUSLY KILL YOURSELF
Dominic Roberts
HE NEVER OPPOSED SUPERMAN, YOU DUMB CUNT. HE WAS ALREADY COMBATING THE NEW METAS, BUT IN A MORE SLOW AND METHODICAL WAY BY PUTTING PAWNS EVERYWHERE. SUPERMAN AND WONDER WOMAN WERE JUST RUINED HIS PLANS WITH THEIR RETARDED SHIT, BUT HE STILL HELPED THEM IN THE END.
Oliver Rogers
TODAY HULK REVIEW COMIC
Adrian Reyes
The epilogue is honestly what turns this book from okay to kinda bad. After a series of catastrophic events that would lead any rational person to conclude that super heroes are more trouble than they're worth and shouldn't exist we get a nauseating scene where the reader becomes a voyeur to Waid jerking off to the idea of the world basically being de facto ruled by a god child raised by le epic Batman. Kingdom Come is the capeshit genre mashing its toys together insisting on its profundity, what with ceaseless Bible references and Alex Ross's artwork (which veers more towards Rockwellian kitsch than classical grandeur). Kingdom Come is Homer for the most base of nerds.
Tyler Martinez
ONCE AGAIN YOU FAIL AT BASIC READING COMPREHENSION. ILL SEND SOMEONE OVER TO CHANGE YOUR SOILED DRAWERS
Colton Bell
THE WORLD WASN'T EVEN GETTING DESTROYED. THE ONES THAT CAME CLOSE TO DESTROYING WERE SUPERMAN AND HIS GROUPIES. SOMETHING SUPERMAN DIDN'T TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR. HE JUST TOLD EVERYONE THINGS GOT FUNKY AND THEN FLEW OFF TO HAVE CREAMPIE SEX WITH WONDER WOMAN AS A SELF-PAT IN THE BACK. THEN AFTER BANGING A BABY INTO HER STARTED TO REBUILD HIS CRIMINAL GULAG.
IT'D HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IF WE WERE SHOWING SUPERMAN RECONNECTING HIS "HUMAN" FRIENDS LIKE JIMMY OLSEN AND WORKING WITH THE GOVERNMENT AGAIN LIKE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE COMIC. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A POIGNANT END.
Kevin Foster
Watchmen ruining DC was responsible for the environment that caused Kingdom Come to be necessary.
Kingdom Come is also a good comic. It's just disliked by people who liked the shit it criticised, who I'm betting also tend to like Millar's Authority.
Daniel Hall
Jonathan Gray
Yes it would have been so much better and compelling if the UN stepped in earlier and we could get inside their heads as they pass some new mandates.
Christian Carter
Scratch that. Watchmen ruining capeshit in general
Isaiah Mitchell
HES EATING LUNCH WITH A HUMAN SURROUNDED BY HUMANS STOP EMBARASSING YOURSELF AND END IT ALL
Gavin Evans
OH, MY FUCKING GOD! KINGDOM COME WAS NEVER NECESSARY. IF THIS COMIC HADN'T BEEN MADE I WOULDN'T HAVE TO READ WONDER WOMAN PUSHING SUPERMAN TO ACT AS A MAN AND DROP SOME MOTHERFUCKERS WHILE SUPERMAN CRIES LIKE A BITCH ABOUT HOW MUCH SHE CHANGED AND HOW EVERYONE HAS TO CALM DOWN, BEFORE BATMAN DROPPING FROM NOWHERE TO TELL HIM THE LAST TIME ANYONE FOLLOWED HIM WAS WHEN HE WAS SKIPPING TOWN TO NOT MARRY LOIS AND LANA.
Oh, fuck. Forgot to turn off the capslock to respond you. Aw, fuck it.
Dylan Clark
BATMAN DOESN'T COUNT AS HUMAN. HE'S 25% ROBOT. HE CLEARLY FUCKS HIS CREEPY BATROBOTS. HE WAS ALSO COMPLAINING TO WONDER WOMAN ABOUT THE MEETING TAKING PLACE THERE. JUST THE FUCK UP.
Brayden Ward
YOU'RE THE ONE THAT FAILED TO READ A COMIC.
Xavier Fisher
the fuck are you even talking about?
Bentley Moore
have sex
Kevin Lee
NOPE I JUST READ IT WITHOUT BECOMING OBSESSED WITH MINOR DETAILS AND CREATING HEADCANON IN ORDER TO TRY AND MAKE SENSE OF A PICTURE BOOK THAT WAS TOO COMPLICATED FOR ME
Gavin Russell
DOESNT CHANGE THE BASIC PREMISE OF SUPERMAN REJOINING HUMANITY BEING ILLUSTRATED IN ANY EASY TO DIGEST MANNER THAT YOU STILL MANAGED TO CHOKE ON
Dominic Barnes
Thanks OP, it was an entertaining read. I'll never bitch about anyone storytiming anything
William Lopez
THERE'S NOTHING COMPLICATED ABOUT KINGDOM COME. IT'S IN YOUR FACE ABOUT EVERYTHING. IT'S JUST A MESSY BOOK WITH TERRIBLE CHARACTERIZATION, PLOT, AND DIALOGUE. YOU BRUSH OFF THE MINOR DETAILS BECAUSE YOU TAKE EVERYTHING AT FACE VALUE AND IS ENTERTAINING BY THE PRETTY PICTURES.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY SHOW SUPERMAN JOINING HUMANITY BY GETTING TOGETHER WITH WONDER WOMAN AND PRODUCING A SUPER-CHILD. A TERRIBLE WAY TO SHOWCASE THEIR POINT BECAUSE THEY WERE MORE PREOCCUPIED WITH FANWANKING THE CHARACTER. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO SHOW IT. JUST AS THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO SHOW THAT SUPERMAN WON'T PLACE HIMSELF ABOVE HUMANITY ANYMORE INSTEAD OF HAVING HIM REBUILD HIS FUCKING GULAG. SHOW HIM SHAKING HANDS WITH THE MAYOR OF METROPOLIS, OR SOMETHING. ANYTHING.
BUT THE PROBLEM IS THE BEHIND THE SCENES STUFFS THAT PLAGUE THE BOOK. LIKE ROSS PUSHING FOR THE END OF SUPERHEROES AND SMWW. BECAUSE OF THIS WE COULDN'T HAVE A BETTER EPILOGUE. AND THE ONE WE ENDED UP GETTING MUDDLED EVERYTHING.
Xavier Davis
So how would you feel if some of the designs Ross created for KC got reused for some new blood in the main DCU with the same push as characters like Static or Sideways got?
Joshua Turner
DC was pushing the narrative that the main universe was going the way of Kingdom Come before the Flashpoint reboot. They were changing characters to fit it. Like Alan Scott creating an emerald kingdom in the moon and wearing his emerald suit. The Joker picking a fight with Superman over and over. Magog showing up and promising to clean the house with supervillains and so on. It was stupid as fuck.
Dylan Baker
YOU REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATE A FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT BASIC THEMES AND SYMBOLISM, CAN'T HOLD TWO CONFLICTING IDEAS INSIDE YOUR HEAD WITHOUT HAVING A MELTDOWN, AND HAVE TO RELY ON WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES ABOUT THE MAKING OF A COMIC BOOK IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND IT. KINDLY KILL YOURSELF SO YOU STOP SHITTING UP THIS BOARD
Aiden Nelson
I came from Kingdom Come, but am staying for the two raging outists screaming at each other.
One of them is hilariously incapable of grasping concepts.
It's the one who thinks Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman went on to lord over humanity at the end, obviously.
Cameron Wilson
I FUCKING GOT THE SYMBOLISM. EVERYONE THAT READ DOES. IT'S VERY IN YOUR FACE. THAT'S NOT MY ISSUE. I'VE TOLD YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IT'S LIKE MOS CASTING SUPERMAN LIKE CHRIST AND THEN HAVING HIM SNAP ZOD'S NECK. IT DOESN'T GODDAMN WORK NO MATTER HOW WELL-MADE OR EASY TO DIGEST THE SYMBOLISM OF SUPERMAN BEING CHRIST-LIKE IS, BECAUSE IN THE END HE ACTS NOTHING LIKE JESUS CHRIST. HE SNAPS A MOTHERFUCKER'S NECK. DO YOU GET? THE SAME GOES FOR KC. THE ACT OF SUPERMAN PUTTING ON THE GLASS AND CALLING HIMSELF CLARK AGAIN IS MEANINGLESS, BECAUSE HE'S STILL NOT SHOWN WORKING WITH OTHER HUMANS, OR FUCKING OTHER HUMANS. INSTEAD WE'RE SHOWN HIM REBUILDING HIS GULAG AND PUMPING A SUPERBABY INTO WONDER WOMAN. THE COMIC EVEN STRESS THAT THIS SUPERBABY FUCKING NEEDS BATMAN PARENTING IN FEAR OF THE CHILD GROWING UP WITHOUT ANY HUMAN PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE OF SUPERMAN AND WONDER WOMAN. JUST SHOWING THAT MINUSCLE DETAIL FUCKS WITH THE WHOLE SYMBOLISM OF SUPERMAN PUTTING ON HIS GLASS, BECAUSE IT TELLS THE READER THAT SUPERMAN DOESN'T SEE HIMSELF AS HUMAN, NOR WONDER WOMAN SEE HERSELF AS ONE. THEIR UNION, AS PRETTY AS IT MAY SEEM, IS NOT ONE OF TWO HUMANS MAKING AN HUMAN CONNECTION, BECAUSE THE STUPID BOOK TELLS US SO. BATMAN HAS TO BE A THIRDWHEEL UP IN THERE BECAUSE OTHERWISE IS THE MASTER RACE ALL OVER AGAIN.
IT'S DUMB COMIC, IS WHAT IT IS.
Kayden Torres
>So how would you feel if some of the designs Ross created for KC got reused for some new blood in the main DCU
Well, when they reused the Red Robin suit for Tim with art from Marcus To it ended up being great.
Ethan Thompson
Nobody is saying that the comic intently lead to that, just that it did such a bad job that hilarious enough the implication could be that.
Landon Williams
I suppose you could see it if you were really determined to. I had no problem getting the message the authors intended.
Parker Garcia
You're saying that's what the implication *is*, you sperg. Why have you been arguing about it for hours if you don't believe it? This isn't the comic being badly written, it's you not being able to read.
Justin Taylor
Rorschach in the second panel.
Julian Jackson
The problem is bad execution. The characters come off looking terribly in the end because of it. That's my problem.
Yes, the implication. Again because the comic is badly made.
Caleb Price
No, you just can't read. You've shown that repeatedly
Gabriel Harris
>The characters come off looking terribly in the end because of it.
That's how you see it. I don't, nor most people here from what it seems.
Wyatt Taylor
user please stop, you're a fucking idiot
Adrian Sanders
Most people share my vision. I think only stupid fanboys wouldn't share that opinion. Because they'd be entertained by whatever crap starring their favorite character.
Jackson Thompson
>Most people share my vision.
Asher Sanchez
Yes, any sensible person is of the mind that Kingdom Come sucks outside of the art. Look at this thread.
>the characterizations are horrible
>it's an Elseworlds! Everything is different by default!
>there's no build up or context for this scenario
>it doesn't need any! Just enjoy the story!
>this comic is the epitome of "show, don't tell"
>it doesn't matter! Everything gets across anyway!
>the messages and symbolism are muddled by not being followed true or being contradicted
>the messages and symbolism are the only things that matter! Nobody wants to see pages and pages of characters doing what they said they would
>this comic sucks
>no it doesnt!
Only stupid people with no taste like this comic. Like SMWW shippers and such.
Jonathan Perry
I think you're completely right, user, and I think you're the straightest man in this thread.