Its wrong to kill magical animals!

I don’t think there is anything to suggest that, except maybe that Ezren can communicate with them, and that would presumably apply to non magical animals as well.

If I gained the ability to psychically commune with a random animal, it would neither establish that it had human-like intelligence nor demonstrate that harming any animal was inherently evil.

...i mean i guess it’s possible that the showwriters *think* Ezren’s thing has established for the audience that magic animals are intelligent and loving, but if so that’s just goofy. And when Callum is considering whether to do dark magic in a coma the issue of not wanting to harm them never even comes up. the image of Claudia killing Bambi was unnerving and all but people in Katolis probably eat veal.

Good God their hands creep me right the fuck out

Have the humans considered farming the magical animals instead of hunting them? Or is that not possible?

Viren has a magical butterfly garden

not everyone is lucky enough to have pinkos

>lewd elf armpits

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It’s a convenient way to do the following every morning (which is how we know how evil he is — butterflies and rock people are precious and inviolable, unlike thousands of starving peasants.)
youtube.com/watch?v=w7RLh0-q0gs

Not even killing. Just harvesting their magic, magic organs.

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Do you want to produce a horrifying child with 4.5 fingers?!

Oh boy, we've certainly never had threads of contrarians whining about standard fantasy material in this show before.

yes

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Who's the semen demon?

...if that drawing isn’t just a joke, it raises a lot of interesting questions.

How the fuck did Claudia or Viren just gouge out that gryphon’s eye, do they regularly cut bits off animals and leave them alive? Are parts more potent for magic if it’s something that is vital or can’t grow back? Could you do dark magic using only items that can be taken without killing the animal, and if so would it still be ~evil~? Could an animal sell its organs to alleviate terrible gambling debt?

I don’t think it’s contrarian to be honestly confused by the weird double standard.
The idea/moral standard itself is standard stuff but TDP is a lot less straightforward about laying it out to the point where I keep going back and forth on whether they’re trying to introduce moral ambiguity or just fumbling the message.

Awwww thas cute

YOU'RE CUTE!

>How the fuck did Claudia or Viren just gouge out that gryphon’s eye, do they regularly cut bits off animals and leave them alive?
Sleep spell? Poachers in real life use tranquiliser guns to sedate rhinos, then cut off their horns and leave the poor animals to bleed to death.
>Are parts more potent for magic if it’s something that is vital or can’t grow back?
Dark magic seems to be awfully specific when it comes to ingredients. Even though it's meant to be easy, the amount of trial and error involved in figuring out all those spells must have been insane.

Yeah i really don’t understand where the ‘easy’ descriptor comes from, obtaining the ingredients is difficult and learning the skill appears to involve intensive study and practice, and that’s BEFORE the research it must take as you’re describing to develop spells. As far as I can tell, elemental magic is ‘easier’ by all those parameters.

>"Killing magical animals is wrong. Now excuse me while my elf friends and I go murder these humans."

>humans
>magical
pick one.

To be fair, from that speech Runaan gave it appears the moon elves have some very specific rules determining when killing is justified. One does wonder that they apparently keep entire trained assassin squads though...it can’t be that rare to kill people.

What did you expect from an elf?

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I think their point was to point out the elves valued human lives below magic animals.

keep shilling this gay ass show.
Shit is shit, no mater how hard you scream at people that it's gold.

Fucking gay ass Netflix drones, I hate them for tricking me into watching one season of this retarded low quality shit build around liberal propaganda.

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who in this thread is shilling

Humans aren't magic, ergo, it's OK to kill them. Killing magical things is wrong tho.

I wonder how many bits you could cut off and use...
>it’s Torsey the Torso Griffin!

Their offspring would be Numenorians

I honestly can't wait for Rayla to find out Thunder killed Callum's mother.

Imagine being this triggered by a cartoon.

everyone who doesn't autistically froth at the mouth at the mere sight of it user

see
Characters in this retarded shit of an excuse for Entertainment don't have enough developement to get waifu fag into it.

Ergo, that man try to sell his Netflix shit.

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Come to think of it those two have never really talked about Harrow’s part in killing Thunder/the events leading to that, have they? As that’s how that would come up...

Oh user, you conflating some viewers being horny for a character with “shilling” a show or ignoring its flaws is adorable. I can only assume you never saw an RWBY thread, your head would explode.

I don't get it.

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Why is Rayllum so perfect Yea Forums?

They are fucking assassins, they kill people for a living. They tell themselves that shit about "not taking life lightly" to feel better about themselves. When Rayla showed Runaan the dragon egg and told him they couldn't kill Ezran, did Runaan agree with her? No, he went "that's nice, Rayla, but I'm not goint to chop my arm off to spare some snotty human brat!".

>He's STILL triggered

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imagine being into gay shows with the most retarded development fucking ever and the weakest fucking story you can think of.

This crap fall into oblivion the very second the shills fuck off.

>it's still screaming and crying

It's not, the name is even shit. Now Callis on the other hand... Great name and some real chemistry

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>My subjective opinion is objective fact! REEEEEEE
How devastated is your anus right now?

Man those bracelets seem like such an awful idea.
>something goes wrong and a murderpromise can’t be fulfilled in time
>now you have to deal with belatedly fulfilling it with a painful and increasingly debilitated arm

It’d be funny if Runaan came out of the coin and the bracelet squeezed his arm off a split second later. “I’m fre—OH GOS aAAHSuShzkfl”

Don’t feed the tard, user.

How many times did they even talk?

it's simple, the show is INCREDIBLY uninteresting, it's low quality at it's finest on every aspect, it's an objectively bad show.

The animation is not even Worth the cringe you get by watching this.
Yet, you have faggots who come here explicitely to say "Hey look at this elf ass, it's from my cool new show, come see it"

Pro tip: The elf ass ain't Worth it, the show is just that damn bad.

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The same “””people””” who’ve been trying to shill She-Ra’s trash show

Reminder that this can be you!

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Look st the minutes you’ll never get back that you’re spending, posting to a thread of a show you don’t like....go watch or discuss something you enjoy, you ninny.

Well they didn't I it till like the day of the mission. They spent a good deal of time making sure they were ready.
And then they found out Rayla fucked them.

Scottish is just so comical and able to be stereotyped without anyone giving a fuck that's it basically just free-range racism without anyone fighting against it.

>go watch or discuss something you enjoy
That is NOT what 4channel is for, shill. It's for insulting things you hate, and telling others they need to be murdered.

>How many times did they even talk?
They spent the whole night together on a rock. With a dangerous monster hunting them, the perfect setting for love to bloom

See, I even got the quints of quints.
Even these digits agree with me so hard they could kill OP's mom.

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go home tard stain

I don't trust it.

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>dangerous monster
It was just a pile of worms enchanted to look like a bigger worm.

Isn’t her kind literally trained to be asassins? She wasn’t shaming her group when they were planning on killing the king and his sons but when Calem uses an already dead peice of an animal (to help her save a very alive being) he’s just oh so horrible to her. I really wish they would just go the route that magic beings see humans as inferior instead of dumb vegan morals (even using dragon snot would be looked down upon)

waiting for Rayla to call someone a bawbag

>take an untested newbie to such a crucial mission
>put her in a position where she can fuck absolutely everything up
Runaan deserves to lose that arm.

I really enjoyed how comically undangerous milf elf’s critters turned out to be.

Apparently just the ones that are assassins are assassins, even though their introduction made it seem like it was a widespread racial specialty or someth.

Perception is everything user. They weren't aware of that and to them the danger was real. It's proven fact that deep seated bonds are formed between people in shared danger. And Callum shared that experience and formed that bond with Ellis, not the elf. Granted the same night has set the foundation for Ezrans x Rayla as well. I think political marriage between Ezran and Rayla would be a perfect starting point for lasting peace between elves and humans

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coins don’t need arms anyway

You know I'm right. Just check the catalog if you need to be reminded of the absolute TRUTH.

inb4 Monsters Inc style ending where they discover sustainable dark magic through snots, shedding, and other waste

It's a perfect setup, you'll see Ezran x Rayla is end game

he ain't gona do it because he's a shill trying to sell a show, not a real user made of flesh and bones with an actual opinion on things.

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Exactly. REAL anons only feel hatred for other humans and wish to go on murder sprees like that guy in New Zeland.

...are you really too thick to tell you’re being so obviously made fun of in and ?
You don’t deserve to post moomins.

They already suggest that, apparently it’s wrong too.

I'll post whatever the fucking hell I want, shill. And you can't do shit about it.

Depends
When you kill an animal normally you don't kill its soul
Are they tampering with souls?

It’s still wrong because it’s unnatural and too easy! Like using a machine to make hot brown morning juice, or vaccinating your children.

The soul is the tastiest part of a hamburger

Humans don’t have souls, so yes.

Why are elves so fucking racist? Will this ever get addressed is season 3?

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So far, nothing suggests that, unless the severed horn of a still living dragon or the ashes of a long-dead wolf have "souls".

Yeah, elves are hypocrites.

Just like they are in literally every fictional setting.

I wonder what's even the point. I doubt the illusions are effective against any dark mage worth their salt, Claudia and Soren just strolled past them. They are there just to scare off farmers and herder boys, the kind of people who wouldn't get anything out of the Moon Nexus anyway.

It’s justified because one time people killed a big lizard. All the elves did was some light ethnic cleansing.

If this site loves discussing philosphy in fiction so much, why don't more people watch Star Trek?

>they found out Rayla fucked them.
Outside her "oh fuck" moment at the end of the first episode, Rayla seems oddly blasé to the fact that she got her entire squad killed, including her uncle. Yeah, they were assassins, but didn't they train and travel together?

your show is pure cancer, I hope you realise that.

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Thunder had it coming.
He probably had slain thousands of humans who just wanted to return to their magical homeland. Harrow and the rest had to sneak in to get the object to save their people, and what does the Dragon King do? kills three queens.
Harrow planned that lizard's death for years, he did nothing wrong.

That was literally a suicide mission, remember?

>they impaled him with Sarai's old spear
Best served cold.

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That was literally not, remember?

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>how dare you call me a bloodthirsty monster
>she was prepared to fucking murder a ten year old kid and would have if the egg hadn't been revealed
I like Rayla, but come the fuck on. This show is ridiculous for showing the elves as somehow being right, despite banishing the entire human race just because a few mages used dark magic.

This exact thread is on /tg/ as well and it's surprising to me how much better the Yea Forums version is

Rayla is racist, and she had no business sulking about being called a meanie monster the way she did, given their circunstances, but I highly doubt she would have killed Ezran, even without the egg reveal. She spared some random guard, and stopped to chat with Callum and justify herself to him when she thought he was her target. She wasn't prepared at all.

Rayla is THIRSTY for that human cock

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Maybe they're not shown as being right and everything in the beginning we saw was actually just Xadian propaganda, and when we spend some time in Xadia we'll see that the actual issue was way more fucked up, basically just like how humans say elves drink blood elves say humans eat babies.
At least I really hope that's the direction they're going in instead of "FILTHY ROUND EAR APOLOGIZE!"

The most interesting thing they could do is dial way up how fucked dark magic is but then have elves hate humans and dark magic for pretty vile political reasons

>Rayla is shown to actually be capable of swimming
>Her fear of water isn't a fear of drowning because she can't swim, she's actually just afraid of water itself
>Meaning she probably hasn't bathed in years
Can you imagine the stank coming off her?

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She's probably more curious than anything. You can tell how well-endowed an elf is by looking at his horns, but how do you know with human men? Do you just cop a feel?

Taste test

I ship them, any good fanart of them?

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Elves were just pissy that humans had discovered a way to do magic since before Dark magic only they had it. They saw humanity as a threat and promptly banished them from the location that had all the magic animals their human dark magic required.

The way the show presents itself makes me think the authors believe the elves to be largely in the right which means that they'll probably be proven to be right canonically even though it's bad writing

I can, yes.

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Based LazyTownposter

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>Callum is excited but scared at the prospect of finally losing his V card
>To a sexy elf in her underwear sprawled out on the bed with a come hither look to
>After some awkward fumbling with her bra and some sloppy kissing he finally gets it off
>"Just one more piece to go" Callum thinks to himself as his hands slowly move down
>He grabs hold of either side of the panty and starts slowly pulling
>Only they stop at one point
>He looks down to see the crotch of Rayla's panties seem stuck to her
>"Oi, don' worry 'bout 'at mate, 'appens soomtymes, jus' yank 'em!"
>Callum obeys the order and gives a soft tug, but nothing happen
>"Ah said yank 'em!"
>Callum makes sure his grip is firm and assured by Rayla pulls hard and fast
>The sound of Rayla's panties coming off makes an audible wet noise, accompanied by a slight hiss of rancid air escaping it's year long prison
>The stench of putrid fish hits Callum immediately
>His eyes water and nose burns as the absolutely overpowering ammonia odor engulfs the entire room in seconds, and in that moment thoughts of intercourse are immediately replaced with his instinctual fight or flight reflex
>But before he can run two four toed feet grab the back of his neck and yank him directly into the source of that poisonous aroma
>He only manages to let out the briefest scream before he's force to kiss that hairy, slobbering oyster with coagulated womanly saliva swimming with rock hard bits of petrified menstrual sewage

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>ywn choke on Rayla's rancid musk

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>the amount of trial and error involved in figuring out all those spells must have been insane.
No, it was all laid out exactly how it should be when Aavaros wrote it and gave the knowledge to humans.

i haven't watched this show yet, is the goat girl worth the try?

How anyone can watch a show with such offensively bad animation quality I have no idea.

Are you really that new to this board? It's the waifus. This show has characters you can fap to, of course people will watch it

You don't need to watch a show to enjoy waifus from it since 99% of the enjoyment of waifufags is fanart and shit.

True but I think your underestimating how desperate the average Yea Forums poster is. If it has waifus, they will watch.

Got me again, Flash!

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I like Claudia and Viren as morally grey characters, but I think it's a shame that Callum outright rejected dark magic and when it's been shown to be able to save tens of thousands of people.

Whoa, that IS surprising

>muh social justice shit in episode 5
Fuck consequences sharing is gud and shit
It EVEN acknowledges that it's wrong but then lmao fuck logic lets satisfy those good vibes and shit

This is going to make kids smooth brained. Fucking hell.

The size of the gap is what's surprising not that Yea Forums is better, /tg/ has been consistently shit outside specific generals for a long time

>the queen's'
>queens
>s
>plural
>child
>royal lineage
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUh

>One of them could have had a magic dick

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Honestly what's going to make or break this show in the final addition is whether or not they have the stones to say "Monarchies: A Fucking Terrible Idea."

They're REPEATEDLY shown that monarchies in general are a bad thing (even showing Harrow himself being a total asshole complete with "who do you think you are talking to me as if you were my friend, peasant? KNEEL" speech).

If all that goes nowhere then, well, the show has many flaws but there's just no excuse for dropping this ball. It's an easily held ball.

They have a little girl queen who makes wise decisions with no advisors and the non-royal Vizer is evil for usurping power from a clearly unqualified dude and a child who has no business making decisions. That ship sailed so long ago it's over the horizon.

The problem is this show keeps trying to do moral relativism and grey morality without any idea of what that actually entails. Kiling a deer to cure a quadrupalegic is considered bad mojo despite there probably not being a single kid outside of some very sheltered melvins who wouldn't do the same thing. Likewise the whole one life for a hundred thousand thing was the most cut and dry shit ever but got questioned by the single mom who had no information and that was seen as valid even though it clearly never even panned out that way.

The show also tries to play Viren off as this cackling madman when he's literally only ever reacted to bad shit happening with constructive solutions when nobody else is. He gets to be the abusive dad despite his wife running off and saddling him with two kids, and she's only ever portrayed positively for it. He went against his king after appealing like a billion times with a viable plan that would've worked, against a group he's bad for being against despite their repeated aggression and elitism. He wants to kill a kid that literally every other group has wanted dead, but he has actual justification for it in that that kid stole the leverage he needs to actually do his job. He's a totally reactionary character dealing with stupid or malicious people around him but he's played as this scheming bad guy who has a plan he very clearly doesn't.

Even more degen. I've just gotten to their
>if you fight your enemies they win
line.

This show is fucked to be honest. If the season finale doesn't knock my socks off I'm not sure I'll be able to continue thinking that the fun fantasy justifies the preachy retardation.
>strength is just a meme bruh
>history being defined by national security and the harsh realities of economic and cultural turmoil? Faggot shit
>it's when you're truly weak that you're actually strongest
>just like, love their hate breh
It's like ingesting bleach through my eyes and ears.

The first season had this as a pretty obvious undertone but it was an undertone. Now we're getting overt monologues and multi-episode arcs dedicated to open-love, open-boarders and communism. Like literally that's all it's about. I had to stop watching a salty sea adventure and the expansion of magic lore for this? Fuck that.

Canon until proven otherwise.

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Monarchies are actually somewhat practical. While you're fucked when you inevitably get stuck with a bad ruler, having a ruler of good stock raised from birth to meet high standards of physicality, intellectualism and abide huge social pressure is an excellent idea in terms of generating a good ruler.

The easiest way to fix it would be to have only one royal lineage and allow nobility to breed with commoners if they're sufficiently decorated in acts of leadership, intelligence or physique. Also to have a system wherein it's not a direct lineage transferal from father to son but from current monarch to the best candidate of the current family members within a certain age - perhaps 16-26. Finally you'd also need a system wherein the populace could veto a monarch if they were unfortunately inept. Ultimately there is a way and it's worked throughout history, rebellion, but another more formalised method may be helpful.

In anycase having leaders who can act across a life time and actually slowly build up to things rather than getting judged on whatever happens in their short leave of ruling and having their efforts dashed the moment someone new rises to the office.

>No, see, there totally is a way to make it work to a permanent leader decided from birth! It just needs a little tweaking!

Fucking monarchists, man.

Looks like someone needs to rewatch those to episodes. They know EXACTLY how they want to portray grey morals - and they do so to decent effect.
What YOU don't realise is that they define morals in a way that decent people like you wouldn't agree with or recognize. Dragon Prince and, presumably, by extension the staff, measure the morality of an act not by the effects but by the intent.
If you do something wrong because you thought it was right you're still 'good' see how evil witch is still a 'good' character because she felt 'bad' about screwing her boy over.
Hilariously this would make elf morally bad but she's a sue (albeit likable) so she just gets gray because she's still trying to do the 'right' thing even if she's doing it in a 'bad' way.

The advisor who literally only thinks about what's best in terms of outcome and then LATER weighs which means are really permissible or justifiable based on their ends? He is evil because he does not think first on what is 'good' or in actuality 'nice' but on what needs doing then secondarily considers feelings around it - his own and others.

tl;dr they know how to do morally gray, they don't understand how to do moral

Enjoy your pretend power then I suppose. I'd rather have an overt over-class that is held openly responsible for its actions than continue to permit the farce of 'democracy' which is almost indistinguishable in practical terms as only candidates that are independently powerful but also aligned with families, trusts, companies and so on with large influence are allowed.
You get to 'chose' which prince wears the crown but very little else as no candidate acts independently of its patrons and there's no reason not to patronise more than one candidate.

Hey female and male posters, what did you think of the emotional scenes from the second season? I personally found them too immature. Really, really sweet and husbando-tier material, but also exceptionally naive and immature.

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Why does Callum have Sokka's voice?

Intent is important though, you're not evil if you've been misled into doing things with bad outcomes, it's just that people are kidding themselves if they don't think they're culpable for the outcomes of their actions, all moral choices are choices between the believed outcomes of each action

>intent is important
Some one who is well aware of the potential bad of their choices but continues on anyway because they accept that as the cost of whatever 'good' is coming from them as well is more moral than any person who just intends to do the 'right' thing.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The actions of the righteous are often hypocritical. People who accept responsibility and take due care in making their decisions are more moral in every sense of the word regardless of their intent or result.

If someone's using unsavory methods to achieve good ends they likely still have good intentions

>dragon goes into human territory and starts buzzing civilian centers
>why haven't you killed it
>it hasn't attacked
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You are a fool. People have waifu'd a character that had less than thirty seconds of screentime! There is no fighting the tide!

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Not really. That's a very subjective thing to say. For example the Kang had good intentions sharing his food with the other kingdom. I would have cast them straight the fuck out. Who had good intentions. He was trying to be good by helping as many people as he would. I would have actively let others die so that more important people could live. One decision is aware of its weight and of its priorities. The other literally sentences people from your own kingdom who had done NOTHING wrong to death because there are some hungry people you've never met somewhere else but it does 'intend' to do that so much as it causes it as an aside.
Real people make hard choices. Faggots try to pretend the world works on good intentions like help everyone that you can.

This show promotes reckless faggotry

>dargon getting speared
>bad
Poor noble savage beast. It only wiped out a village after threatening and terrorizing them for days on end. He didn't do anything!

>implying that's not just what they tell people like you so you let them get away with it

>she makes this face at the exact second you cum inside her

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2.
Seriously though. Both human princes saw it slaughtering a village the night before. Neither seems to give a fuck about their countrymen. I'm starting to dislike these characters and knowing they'll beat the advisor who's actually doing his best is upsetting.
Do the creators lurk I wonder? Have you ever considered how fucked your narrative is you backwards fools? One must value their out-group equal or lesser than their in-group. Caring about a stranger more than your own community is the sign of mental issues.

You then intend to save the people in your kingdom from starvation. Intent is about what internal objective you have, saying someone has good intentions doesn't mean they believe in deontological ethics, it just means their motivations are "good"

People raised in an assassin death cult have weird thoughts

You're retarded on multiple levels

I think that generally speaking, you as the viewer are supposed to understand that while Dark Magic isn't really evil (it's just a tool), the people who use Dark Magic are playing with forces they really don't understand and can't be trusted to self-regulate (especially since using dark magic has questionable effects on your sanity).

Like, sure, it's like killing a rabbit for food, if killing a rabbit gave you the magical ability to kill a horse, then a griffon, then a dragon, then cause endless summer and annihilate the entire world. And you have to examine the type of person who uses dark magic. It doesn't have a very good image, it involves killing things, and it gives you immense power. Who are the types of people attracted to the practice of this art? Do you think they're well-balanced individuals, or do you think that maybe they're the type who think they're above society's silly "common sense" and think they can do everything better?

There's no rational reason to value your in group more because they're you're in group, fuck the elves though

Elves are made for abuse. Don't forget to falcon punch them afterwards because racemixing is wrong.

Intent is equal parts awareness and desire. The Kang desired to help people and to his awareness did all he could to save people. People without smooth brains are also forced to face the awareness of deaths their decision will make so their intent is as much to kill as save. They take responsibility for both the damnation and salvation whereas Kang was blamed the situation and said people 'just have to deal with it' because muh winter as if he wouldn't have prioritised his own.
Idiots are incapable of bad intent because they aren't forward thinking enough to realise the gravity of their actions or are to cowardly to accept it.
Fuck intent. Intent is 25% at best, with 75% being the real politik at the end

>There's no rational reason to value your in group more

Some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. Who brainwashed you and for what purpose?

>There's no rational reason to value your in group more because they're you're in group
Are you serious or what? Because that's fucking retarded. If you don't value your in-group more you're biologically defective. Fact.
People are designed just as any other animal. If a lion aligns with gazelles kills its pride and tries to eat grass for the rest of its life you would say that lion is mentally deranged. It is not meant to do that.
The same is true of social groups see meerkats and so on. Nature punishes the traitor in most situations. Animals are programmed. Social animals are usually programmed for their ingroup and the particular behaviours therein. If you don't value your group equal or higher to things outside of it then you're malfunctioning.
>but we're better than animals I'm so rational
lmao. A rational person wouldn't be so prideful as to consider themselves some divine creature that isn't subject to basic neural design.

If you're in group doesn't have some quality that makes the more valuable than your outgroup morally there's no reason to favor them other than animalistic tribalism and if you're looking to materialistic nature for morality you're a fool

If you're looking to evolution for morality you're a retard either morality doesn't exist or there's a metaphysical source for morality

It was extremely high risk in the heart of the enemy stronghold. I know moon meme powers were supposedly help them but it was still pretty much suicide after they were found out. Not to mention their wristbands were more like an armed suicide west. It was an extremely small chance they get out alive, and if they are unable to complete their goals they'll die anyway.

Your*

Hahaha
You're one duuuuuuuumb mother fucker. Rational thinking still relies on warrants. There is no rational proposition that was not raised from an irrational premise.

>evolutionary morality
hahahahaha
No but the fact that people are like to behave as they always have should tip you off that people who favour their outgroup are incapable of thought notable input on any subject should be a tip off.
Also the morality is a different conversation. I simply said the notion was backwards and implied it was damaging. I stand by those sentiments. If you'd like to continue this song and dance further please address these issues rather than the one you've fashioned for me.

You favor your in-group because they're in your fucking in-group. That's the most basic and logical survival instinct any being could possibly have. What the actual fuck do you think you're talking about?

You are the only one saying anything like that. You claimed that it was irrational to value your in-group, not that it's immoral. It is immoral, it's not irrational. You are an idiot on so many levels it's staggering.

>It is immoral
How about no. It's absolutely the most moral. If you'd choose to save a stranger over your mother than I'd rather not share an in-group with you. Swerve with this every life is equal shit. It's simply untrue beyond abstract ideology. We all know kith and kin can and SHOULD come first.

Rayla herself is definitely not a monster and wouldn't have killed any kids. It's questionable if she would have been able to kill the king.

Elven society though, yikes! Recruiting children into ritual death cults is not a good look. Also the trail of tears.

Viewing your in group as surperior is inherently about morality because its a value judgment. Whether backing them or your out group in a conflict is rational depends on what your end goals are

You're kind of right, depends on how far you take it.

When the fuck would it be logical to back up the out group? That sounds like a great way to get killed in almost all societies. What do you think "in group" and "out group" refer to?

Saving your family over strangers is only the right thing to do if the moral benefits of your loyalty outweigh the costs of favoring your family, if your mother's a piece of shit or if the tradeoff between your in and out groups is lopsided enough you should favor the out group

In group doesn't mean the dominant group, it's the group you belong to, if you can sell out your in group for personal benefit and we're defining being rational as acting in self interest there are situations where it's rational to favor your out group

It's never EVER rational to "back up the out group" for its own sake. In the specific case with the dragon it could be rational for the princes to advocate mercy for the dragon, in the case that the dragon acted in self-defense, for the purpose of maintaining civil relationships with the country full of of evil dragons and elves who want to kill all humans. That's still a position with the intent of being beneficial to the in-group and it's not really "siding with the out group".

Saying "fuck you stupid humans, your lives are worthless and dragons are cool" which is what they do in the show is not logical, and would never be logical, because it undermines the social contract that the Prince's derive their value from. Not to say that people haven't historically done things like that, but it's not logical and has a lot of room to backfire.

>Rayla herself is definitely not a monster
She killed countless men by freeing the dragon and absolving it.

>I'M GOING TO END THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE IF WE RETALIATE AGAINST IT WE'RE JUST AS BAD =ccc
>WOUNDS AND KILLS SEVERAL MEN WITHOUT BLINKING TO RELEASE THE MURDER DRAGON WHO BUZZED A VILLAGE UNPROVOKED
>RELEASES DRAGON WHO IS IMMEDIATELY VIOLENT NOW THEY'RE NO LONGER VULNERABLE
>PUTS PROMISING SOLDIER ON HIS ASS FOR LIFE

You know folks the real victim here are the dragons. We can't judge them for a single dragon's actions! If we attack the dragons that kill and maim our people we're just radicalising more Dragons!
Fuck the writers of this show. The subtext to this show is immoral, suicidal and treacherous.

The reason why backing the elves and dragons as a human is morally repugnant isn't because elves and dragons aren't humans but because the elves and dragons are morally wrong. Would you consider an elf that reckognized how morally wrong elfdom had been and decided to back humanity instead morally wrong?

>surperior
Superior is how you choose to misinterpret the statement. Superiority has nothing to do with it. It's simply a matter of priority.

She's a stupid kid, not a monster.

If they recognized that they were wrong then that would mean they adopted my position and sided with me and I wouldn't consider them to be strictly part of the out-group anymore.

In some rare cases, where the out-group is overwhelmingly more powerful than the in-group, then yes it can be rational to fuck over your in-group. That's a far cry from "there's no rational reason to value your in-group more".

You already lost. Dont worry about it, man.

>Expect DND/LOTR-esque adventures with Shelob-tier spiders, Moria-tier dungeons, ghostly horsemen riders, fucking dragons.
>Get something lesser than Harry Potter.
>Instead get The Last Airbender's "Don't kill the Fire Lord, you'll be just as bad as him" AND "Aang STOP making vacation stops, we should have reached the North Pole since episode 4 by now" - tiered up to 11.

>user.. they had a giant spider and they had dragons... ok no dungeons, but they had castles and shit.
ALL EXECUTED LIKE TRASH, user. Don't you ever get TECHNICAL with me. If every episode from TLA was directed like Kyoshi Island I would have stopped rewatching any of TLA since 10 years ago. Now I am happily re-enjoying good media.

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I was thinking less about the human aspect and more the fact that Callum is the fucking Prince of these people and has an obligation to protect them.

There's no rational reason to value your in group because they're your in group is the original statement, the point isn't that there aren't situations where valuing or supporting your in group is rational or that those situations aren't common but that the reason why you should value your in group hinge on factors outside your in group being your in group

Monstrous actions are defined by monstrous results. A child who deigns to take on the role of an adult will wear the same judgements.
I actually thought she was going to talk to them after her end the cycle speech.
>if we attack back then they'll attack back and so on - it needs to stop
>attacks on behalf of dragon
>doesn't give a fuck about anyone who is harmed before during or after
That's what an objectively evil person looks like. Someone who is both unaware of their actions but who strives to perform more and more potent actions to see their ends through.
If you're unsure and unwilling to accept the evil of actions you do in the name of good then you shouldn't be acting within the realms of good and evil and should just live your life more quietly like almost everyone else does.

>she's just a kid don't blame her for the hundreds of lives her choice has taken from the world
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. It's not like she accidentally freed the dragon - it wasn't a mistake.

I agree with callum being morally wrong, I'm just being pedantic about why he's wrong

>then yes it can be rational to fuck over your in-group
Not really. You have more chance at a good life with the in group either way. You can choose to live as a pariah or die a man. People do not treat their traitors well as a man who betrays his brothers for you will betray you for less still.

>the reason why you should value your in group hinge on factors outside your in group being your in group

Not... really? The reason you value your in group more is because they bring value to you. A mediocre member of your in-group is a mediocre ally, an exceptional member of the out-group is an exceptional rival. Obviously an ally is better to have.

That's why I said it's rare. Very few people throughout history will have encountered this situation. Pretty much only religious minorities.

Your in group is only as valuable as what it can provide for you, the value comes from your in group providing for you, not from your in group being your in group. If the restrictions and requirements that come with being a member of your in group cost you more than the support you receive or if turning coat is likely to net your more benefits than your in group can provide you should abandon your in group if we're talking only in terms of self interest

You're underestimating how often people leave or even sell out their in groups, I could point out multiple political talking heads all across the spectrum who've profited greatly from switching sides for example

>Your in group is only as valuable as what it can provide for you, the value comes from your in group providing for you, not from your in group being your in group.

Hey, you know what? I'm a dick, I thought that communal interest was how in-group was defined. Turns out it strictly refers to psychological identity. Silly me. You're right.

So "in-group" isn't really the right word to describe Callum's relationship with the peasants or why it's so fucked up that he automatically sides with a dragon over them, since it brings in irrelevant baggage.

I mean you're not wrong about thinking about the show in terms of in group and out group. The writers have this weird morality where the out group is inherently more moral which is illogical and kind of repulsive (I'd say that it also has to do with the elves being stand ins for minorities but regardless of race I'm pretty sure most viewers would identify with the humans and elves are clearly the more powerful group)

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What would you do to her nose?

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>elves
>most politically powerful and inherently privileged
>forced trail of tears-esque relocation of the humans
>stand-ins for minorities
???

> and elves are clearly the more powerful group
Read the entire post next time

I'm still not following how you came to the conclusion in the first half of your post, especially when you contradict it right after

I'm probably not writing clearly because it's 4:30 where I live and I'm a bitch who can't handle not getting enough sleep but my point is that I feel the writers of the show are trying to tell a dances with wolves style story but forgot to make the group that the protagonists defect to morally right or to paint them as convincingly oppressed but the show still leans on the message that you should empathize with and even favor the out group. I also don't know dancing with wolves well enough to say if the comparison makes any sense

There actually is something wrong with killing animals and pretending there isn't makes you a liar but it is a necessary and acceptable evil you can live with easily because they're delicious.

If you think killing animals is evil you need to kill yourself. You're functionally defective

I've just realized that deontological ethics in most cases should lead to veganism

So when's she gonna grow up and stem the Vermintide.

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Which is a good litmus test. Deontological ethics are wrong.

Rayla would be pro-rats like the anti-human traitor she is.

Causing animals to suffer or just killing them is bad just not significantly so, you'd probably be repulsed by someone who tortures animals for fun, but the good gained from killing animals in most cases far out weighs the bad of causing a lesser being to suffer and die

>double chin
time to burn some calories

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Most people aren't neckbeards from here though, that's why Cameron's Avatar sold.

Na'Vi were ooga booga cavemen tier too, the elves here are more advanced and therefore more sympathetic to the senses of some.

The ultimate bad guy might be an evil elf too.

Kerillian isn't exactly pro Human. She just likes Markus.
What this world truly needs is a proper Victor Saltpyre.

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Torture and murder are different. I do not believe the act of killing is inherently immoral animal or otherwise. I DO believe the act of torture (animal or otherwise) is immoral under all circumstances but in differing degrees.

Everything kills something else. Nothing lives that hasn't killed. Bacteria, Flora, Fauna, sentience, sapience. All of it kills.
Boo hoo things need to eat? Kill yourself.

She hates rats more than humans. Rayla seems to have a superseding need to fuck humans over. It's just in her nature apparently.

>Nothing lives that hasn't killed

What did the very first life-form kill?

Without background information the Na'vi actually seem to be in the right, the world building about how earth is dying and they need unobtanium to survive though undercuts the whole thing, irc that's not in the movie though but it's been forever since I've seen it

Just ignore that autotrophs exist

Saying that killing is okay only when it's necessary to prevent your own death implies killing itself is somehow inherently bad but a necessary evil.

I've got a problem with killing in itself the ends justify the means which is why I'm fine with self defense and eating meat

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Pointless speculation. What do you know of the first life form? Muh soup. Muh asteroid.
Who fucking knows. What we do know is that literally everything else we've documented obeys that law. Kill yourself veganfag.

>autotrophs don't process themselves and other lifeforms
You're right in that they don't do it exclusively so yeah, I'll where that. However pretending that their ecology doesn't involve (and heavily in most cases) the processing of other life, dead or alive, is silly.
FURTHER to pretend that because they don't prey on other life excludes them from killing other life forms is also foolish. If you monopolise a resource over something else you are killing it. Any life form capable of competing for resources is by proxy harming the well being and inevitably killing another.

In itself but the ends justify the means

What defines torture?

Harming with the intent to remove autonomy and optimise or emphasise pain and suffering. Torture is an action one takes. Not all torturous conditions are a result of torture. Dying in space sounds torturous however space is not torturing you with it. To satisfy my definition there needs to be an aggressor, a target and intention.

I'd say that for something to to kill something it has to be the somewhat direct cause of the death of something else and there are theoretical situations in which life can exist without killing but I'm not informed enough to say if those situations ever do occur (plus my definition of killing is still too loose). But that's getting way off in the weeds, I don't value life, I value sentience and sapience, and I eat meat despite that because I value the pleasure I derive from said meat more than I dislike the pain suffered by animals or the cessation of their sentience

>veganfag
I was literally eating a chicken sandwich as I asked you that question (with hot sauce, as it should be consumed). Nothing wrong with killing things to survive, but c'mon, even now there's exceptions and gray zones to the "gotta kill to live" rule.

There are bacteria that eat plastic.

Salzpyre and other insects merely worsened the suffering for everyone involved by prolonging the inevitable, for the world was always doomed.

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So the removal of autonomy and infliction of pain and suffering by another is what makes torture bad, but killing another for any reason inevitably causes these things. Would that not make all killing inherently bad, but possibly justified for other reasons?

This.
The show brings up the fact that Harrow's position is purely hereditary and his power is unfair, yet frames his decision to use that power over his citizens to harm them as being moral. Likewise the constant idea that the uppity Viren is being put in his place by those Monarchs is a good thing.

If the Harrow has just gone "Destiny has placed on me this great power that I must wield wisely" and kept it at that, then it wouldn't feel so strange.

are you going to argue that consuming inanimate carbon or photons is the same as killing an organism?

No because you kill something to kill something. Torture is the act of intentionally and clinically bringing about the aforementioned conditions. There are plenty of thigns that can restrict autonomy or inflict pain very few of them are inherently immoral.
For example restraining someone to perform surgery on them when they're in writhing in shock is both restrictive and painful however it is not torturous or immoral.
You attempted to reduce my definition to a simpler point than the one I gave which is not very smart. It wasn't vague or wordy.

I very clearly stated that it was not however monopolisation of resources can in many circumstances be defined as killing.
Read my post instead of shit posting

I'd be really interested to see if they have really simple organisms with magic.
Like sea sponges.

>Harming with the intent to remove autonomy and optimise or emphasise pain and suffering. Torture is an action one takes. Not all torturous conditions are a result of torture.
I'll regret going there but isn't that a lot of modern farming?
Dark Magic is probably more ethical than most of our human/animal interactions today. I really hope the writers thought of that.

You kill something to make it stop doing whatever it's doing, whether that be threatening your own well being or refusing to let you eat it. Removal of autonomy is always the primary intent in the act of killing.

Modern farming minimizes pain and suffering, at least by as much as we can perceive it in other creatures

Cute guy

Farming is done primarily with the intent of optimising food yield. While much of the conditions and actions could be considered torturous depending on your stance, the fact is they were not designed TO torture so much as unfavourable conditions that could be seen as torturous align with efficient farming
For animal torture see the 3rd world 'stress flavours' shit.
As you can see I was very careful with my definition. There's not much gray area.

>I very clearly stated that it was not however monopolisation of resources can in many circumstances be defined as killing.
The way Kings and Queens presumably do in this show?

Is intent relevant when the result still causes the same conditions for the victim?

Because I see it as an action an agressor takes rather than a state inflicted upon a victim. Just the same as if one throws a punch and did not MEAN to punch anyone, then, while it's fair to say he punched someone he did not attack someone.

I wouldn't agree. Regardless of what your intent was it doesn't change the reality of what happens to the victim. Not meaning to run someone over while driving does not mean you didn't commit homicide.

>There are bacteria that eat plastic.
Where do you think plastic comes from?

Nice fan-fiction. That's not how its going to play out though.

>Rayla looks the same age as Callum even though she ages much slower
lmao this is fucking gay

Age of maturation isn't relative to average lifespan.

It is not unreasonably to think they reach adulthood at the same age, given they already look and are the same age.

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Tell me what next season will have better animation.
Cuz Raila can rotate her arms in any direction she wanted!
Just look at that pose! Try to make same thing that she did, your arms cant do that.

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...Can you not lift your arms user?

>be human
>kicked out of our homeland due to the actions of one guy in his pursuit of magic
>elf fucking shits surprised when we start a war to reclaim what is ours

except this show is actually watchable

People in this thread keep saying that elves and dragons are the ones in the right and you should root for them, but I think that both the dragon king and red dragon are clearly portrayed as assholes. Same for the elves, the show was pretty clear that the assassins were in the wrong, and the sun elves from the second season are portrayed as bad guys, you should be supporting the human soldier and the mute general.
In the same vein, I feel that Viren is clearly portrayed as a sympathic villain, he is trying is best. Knowing that the sun elves are gathering their forces to launch an attack on the border of the humans kingdoms, the child-queen refusal to an alliance felt more foolish than wise

>WOUNDS AND KILLS SEVERAL MEN WITHOUT BLINKING TO RELEASE THE MURDER DRAGON WHO BUZZED A VILLAGE UNPROVOKED
>UNPROVOKED
Nigga they tried to shoot it.

It was buzzing their village you retard. That is an act of war. Of course you shoot it.
Or what? You'd just let it do whatever it wanted in your territory, flying over your towns to sow terror in your people?
Would you be cool with Russian, American or Chinese plans buzzing wherever the fuck you live. The Dragon not only entered human territory but buzzed that town daily.

IMO the show takes great care that both sides are full of assholes.

The elf assassins were wrong in that they were perpetuating a cycle of violence. But Harrow and Viren were wrong for killing Thunder in the first place, and should have realized that doing so would have dire consequences. The dragon hovering over that human village was an asshole hoping for a fight, but its liege had just been killed by those humans and it probably wouldn't even have been having to patrol the border like that if Thunder hadn't been killed. Similarly, Soren was stupid as fuck for immediately firing on it and giving it a reason to rain fire down on the town. Everyone except the main protagonists are wrapped up in a spiral of retaliation and in some cases greed.

The only thing that probably puts the elves over humans, morally, is that dark magic is clearly evil and mind-corrupting. But even that isn't solely pinned on humans, as in the latest season we were introduced to the biggest proponent of dark magic, literally Elf Sauron.

>humans kill the head of your nation and his heir
>now you have to watch the border because your king was also doing that
>instead of immediately attacking, you just let everyone know you're watching and are super fucking pissed
The dragon was definitely jonesing for a fight and being a dickhead. He most likely felt that humans had provoked him into doing so, though. In fact, IRL, if one nation kills the head of another nation, that would mean war immediately. I'm surprised the dragons weren't burning down human villages at the very start of the series.

>Soren was stupid as fuck for immediately firing on it and giving it a reason to rain fire down on the town
If you wouldn't have fired on it then you deserve to be burned. You cannot allow grandstanding like that. What's to stop it doing the same thing over the capital next? You have to maintain the border and maintain the fear and respect. Allowing enemies to invade your territory and terrorize the populace is incredibly dumb.
That the staff think Red was in the right because he hadn't burned anyone yet shows how absolutely out of touch and ignorant about history/war/politics they are.

>now you have to watch the border because your king was also doing that
Fanfiction when was that stated
Regardless he was OVER the border and buzzing towns not patrolling. Entering territory is an outright act of war. Buzzing is even worse. The dragon deserved to die for what it did, no doubt. For all it knew the border conflict could be used as the premise for a new war.
If I was a dragon I'd execute him and if I were a human I'd execute him. Pretending that he was just a hot head and didn't shoot first is borderline clinical retardation.
>it's okay to sow terror because someone did something to you
I didn't know Yea Forums had so many 88s

By this logic, the dragon should have attacked immediately. Humans had already attacked its nation and it should have responded in kind. The only thing it did wrong was not setting everything on fire the moment it showed up.

Nobody's saying the red dragon was in the right. It wasn't supposed to be there at all. Shooting at it however was not an effective response, as we see. Besides, dragons are sapient in this setting right? Did anyone attempt to communicate with it?

>Fanfiction when was that stated
...We know that Thunder was essentially dragon border patrol before he got killed. It was stated multiple times.

>it's okay to sow terror because someone did something to you
Nobody said it was okay you dumb fuck. But the situation didn't exist without context. That dragon was only there because humans had already made an act of aggression - an act that was more than just buzzing, they'd fucking killed a monarch and (as far as anyone knew) his son.

What the dragon was doing was wrong. But it was doing this stuff because other wrong things humans had done. Trying to deescalate the situation would be by far preferable than immediately escalating it, and this is why Callum/Ezran/Rayla are the heroes and everyone else is a roadblock to peace.

Clearly the dragons don't want war. If humans weren't such pussies they'd also have more mages and they'd win the war. A single cast was enough to immobilize one temporarily. Get three mages set up and have them run through crowds of troops to obscure their location and you'd be mincing dragons.
What the humans should be doing is invading the elves and using dark magic to take any and all primal stones they can acquire.
Train up some mages with primal.
Train up some more mages with dark magic. Get a good blood economy going with monster farming and you're ready for late game.
Dragons and elves aren't the same faction either so you've got some leway where you can expect elf only fights (which would be easy because primal magic requires conditions were as dark requires reagents. Just engage in the right conditions to win.
Don't stack you mages so the fliers can hit the back and aoe them all. GG ez

>What the dragon was doing was wrong. But it was doing this stuff because other wrong things humans had done
>it's okay to sow terror because someone did something to you
>Nobody said it was okay you dumb fuck
Disavow

Waving your dick about to scare off your enemies is all well and good, but your should probably be sure your dick's bigger than theirs before you attempt it.

Also:
>let the dragons know that if they come into your land and torch settlements that you're unwilling to do anything - WORSE that if other humans try and protect themselves that the head of state will attack and punish them to defend your dragons
Your brain must feel like silk.
The right choice is to kill the invader and send and envoy confirming that you will NOT consider it an act of war this time but instead a rogue actor. Any further Dragon activity in human territory will not be tolerated and will result in war with the Dragons resuming.

Sucking a dick is a poor way to avoid dicks being waved in your face in future.

depends on the system. adopted kids can be part of the royal line or the "main line" kid could be too. like how in UK kings today don't mean shit because queen is the one from the main line

Except the show has also setup a power imbalance between the Elves/Dragons and Humans, where apparently the Elves where able to round up the entire human population and exile them, which doesn't usually happen unless there's already an established hierarchy, as hinted in that text on Aaravos.
Then they proceeded to put limits on humans autonomy by establishing a fiery border and killed any human who crossed it, a standard they clearly didn't hold themselves too.

I have a hard time buying this crew intentionally wanted to 'both sides' the trail of tears.
They should have opted for cold war imagery instead.

You're retarded.
>adopted kids can be mainline
>no citation
>like how you can marry into royalty
>an entirely different process
wew

>your arms cant do that.
user, are you trying to tell us something?

Actually it's a very good way of avoiding that. vassal states, treaties, alliances, etc

I did not say adopted kids can be mainline. I said A) you can adopt kid into the royal line and he will be a successor if its uncontested.
or B) given that there are 2 queens, the kid of the queen from the main line will be the successor.
>like how you can marry into royalty
I said the opposite of that.

but that's honestly what happens when people think they know about things they don't actually know

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>wants to be a vassal state
>thinks that isn't equivalent of having a dick sown into his throat like some human centipede knock off
HAHA. No wonder your other opinions are so terrible.
They clearly have some treaty already which is why humans and dragons aren't fighting - official or otherwise. Red broke that non-aggression agreement.

>princes have legitimate greivances
>not blood thristy
>rayla
>no grievances that she hasn't caused herself
>psychopath
uuuuuuh

What retard takes an unblooded assassin on a royal kill? It was clearly just nepotism so she could restore her family honor

I mean, you don't know anyone like that? because I do, there's always knuckleheads like rayla that think they're in the right until proven wrong

Being a vassal state just means your owner gets all the benefits of owning you but none of the responsibility.

You're a terrible logician. At no point there does that user say sowing terror is okay. He says the dragon is doing it for a reason - i.e. humans have already attacked his nation. Use your brain and actually read what's being written, not what you want to see.

This is a really good point. I no longer feel sorry for the assassins that she consigned to death. It's their fault for associating with her.

That doesn't mean she isn't a monster. There are few other characters anywhere near her level. At best dumb brother because of his 'secret mission'. Literally everyone else is better and less monstrous than her.
>most antagonists
>reactive
>defensive
>taking prisoners of civi

>rayla
>revenge killings
>fine with killing kids
Hm hmmm

>>let the dragons know that if they come into your land and torch settlements that you're unwilling to do anything
Not said anywhere. Trying to deescalate things is not the same as doing nothing.

>WORSE that if other humans try and protect themselves that the head of state will attack and punish them to defend your dragons
Not said anywhere, trying to deescalate the situation is not the same as defending the dragon.

>The right choice is to kill the invader and send and envoy confirming that you will NOT consider it an act of war this time
Apparently not, as this resulted in many human lives being lost. The right choice was to consider that, hey, that dragon is probably here because we killed its king. Since it's not attacking yet, maybe we should try to talk to it rather than immediately firing. It's already showing restraint by not immediately burning everything.

didn't say she wasn't, I'm just argumenting her writing is fine as a character, my brother is a piece of shit who gets touchy feely when called names but he's still a piece of shit and what I call an emotionally irresponsible person, they do not think before acting, and they don't realize how bad the things they do actually are, and when they do they just try to live on ignoring those things as if they didn't happen, don't know what happens to those kinds of people in the end, but I assure you they exist regardless

>Except the show has also setup a power imbalance between the Elves/Dragons and Humans, where apparently the Elves where able to round up the entire human population and exile them
Wrong. Elves rounded up the humans living in eastern Xadia. Most of human civilization has always been in western Xadia. Did you think half the continent was just empty?

>But it was doing this stuff because other wrong things humans had done
He is soft balling that mother fucker. By that same token humans have a 'reason' - in fact a better one - for everything they're doing what with the trail of tears.
>b-but dragons are reacting to bad things
>they're still bad but there's a reason
>please stop being mean let the violence stop
He straight up tried to shift onto humans being in the wrong by that virtue see going as far as questioning why dragons aren't attacking worse
>I'm surprised the dragons weren't burning down human villages at the very start of the series.

Why WAS the dragon there at all anyway? If it wanted vengeance it could've started torching everything from the start. Why fuck around for three days? Was it waiting for something? Looking for someone? Did it want to get shot at?

>They clearly have some treaty already which is why humans and dragons aren't fighting
They actually don't.

Humans killed Thunder, and now they're waiting for the hammer blow to come down. This is why the aunt is constantly on about how important the border guard are. These nations are at war, the elves and dragons just haven't made their move yet.

Does this show actually have Scottish accents? Like, real Scottish accents and not Americans doing fake Scottish accents? Because I may have to watch it if so.

Oh. No yeah her writing is pretty consistent. Over-emotional person of action. I don't dislike her but she's totally the most monstrous of the cast other than dear leader.

>deescalating is not the same as doing nothing
They just let it go after attacking their own people
>not said anywhere
The two heads of state took part PERSONALLY in attacking their own forces and releasing a dragon who had taken human lives and invaded their territory.
>as this resulted in many human lives being lost
It never happened. They let the fucking thing go which makes all those deaths meaningless.

She clearly isn't fine with killing kids, seeing as she constantly hesitated. And I don't want to break your snowflake heart, but when you assassinate a nation's leader + their heir and declare war on them, your own leader + heir is now fair game.

It's not pretty, but absolutely none of the humans have a moral leg to stand on if Rayla doesn't. Viren and Harrow assassinated a monarch and Viren intended to use its kid as magic fuel. They should have been prepared for retaliation.

>kill regent and heir
>no forces attack
>the closest is their allies sending kill squads to attack your own regent
lmao, some war. It's a cold war at best - which makes it even more dumb that red did what he did.
ON THE OTHER HAND. You could consider Red a scout who was buzzing them to see what kind of defenses they'd have at their disposal. In that case there's benefits to killing him and negatives. On the one hand they're giving away secrets, on the other hand Red would have to report a small border town having mages with one shot spells garrisoned there.

>heir is now fair game
B-but user, let's not continue the cycle of violence ,':^)

>They just let it go after attacking their own people
They let it go after it attacked them after THEY ATTACKED IT. For fucks' sake the point of the show is acting like an adult and doing something to stop the chain of revenge from perpetuating, how can you not comprehend this?

>The two heads of state took part etc etc
Maybe you should read the post you were replying to again? It wasn't even addressing this. The point was that rather than firing on it, maybe trying diplomacy would have been a better idea.

>They let the fucking thing go which makes all those deaths meaningless.
Those deaths were always meaningless. They were the result of someone thinking with their muscles rather than their brain.

actually only by killing the heir can you make sure the cycle won't continue

Yeah, that's the mature thing to do. None of this is 'right', it's just cause and effect.

But you can't argue that Rayla is more evil than the other people also involved in perpetuating that cycle - especially when she actually decided not to do so. Viren knew that killing Thunder would just create a reason for elves and dragons to retaliate, and he did it anyway. Rayla knew and killing Ezran would just create a reason for humans to retaliate... and she didn't do it.

>after it attacked them after THEY ATTACKED IT
It was in their TERRITORY. That is an attack. Are you fucked in the head mate?
>those deaths were always meaningless
Not really. They killed an invader and confirmed they can and will defend their boarders from what is otherwise a formidable enemy. That's an important thing to do. If you let fighter jets into your airspace and do NOTHING your country is already subjugated.

>lmao, some war. It's a cold war at best
It's stated in the first season that Xadian forces are strengthening at the border. Whether it's for an attack is unknown, but they clearly consider themselves at war with humanity after what Viren did. Especially since they sent a death squad to 'eye for an eye' shit up.

Elves and Dragons are two separate but aligned factions. Elves are clearly arming up.

>It was in their TERRITORY. That is an attack. Are you fucked in the head mate?
And Thunder was killed in the dragons' territory. Anything you can say in favour of how the humans acted can be said in favour of how the dragon acted.

>They killed an invader and confirmed they can and will defend their boarders from what is otherwise a formidable enemy.
Considering that humans had already come into Xadia and killed a king, the Xadians clearly know this already. Those deaths were indeed entirely meaningless when really, the best thing to do would have been to try reaching some sort of understanding.

Son you might need to see a doctor about your arms.

Rayla's VA was a born and raised Scot, and actually commented how she was relieved she finally landed a role that let's her use her native accent

The cognitive dissonance in this thread is insane.

The dragon was precisely as justified as the humans in what they were doing. None of them were doing the right thing, but, like the humans, the dragon was responded to a perceived threat. He violated human territory... after humans violated his territory. There's no easy way to resolve something like this, but both sides are essentially acting out of the same impulses and both have justification for what they're doing.

>Most of human civilization has always been in western Xadia.
When was that stated?
Either way it wouldn't change the fact that they still had to have enough power to do that.

Nah if he's burger, visiting a doctor will bankrupt him.

>defending your border isn't right
Forget cognitive dissonance what about cognitive deterioration.
Either side is vindicated in killing people on their territory. Invasion can be justified but its subjective.

Never breed, user

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They probably just had a male noble knock one of then up as the royal stud
>ywn do your patriotic duty and slather the lesbian queens womb with your baby batter

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And what was the border but an enforcement of will by the Dragons & Elves on the Human population?
Why should the humans respect it?

Honestly, i am still unconvinced as to why the Humans shouldn’t just go full Dark magic and kill all the Dragons. The shows attempt to try and push making nice with everything when they all suck anyways is really grating.

Literally nobody has said that defending yourself isn't right. Have you considered that, y'know, maybe TALKING to the thing that wasn't actually attacking yet would have been the best way of doing that. This isn't a jet zooming by, you can actually enter into a conversation here.

Also territory is arbitrary and the dragon responded to an invasion with an invasion. A much less harmful invasion. Its response to humans literally murdering its king was... to hang around and let everyone know it was really cross. If anything, it's in the comparative moral right here, because it isn't immediately just raining fire down on everything.

you are sounding like a palestinian

If borders are unimportant, why should the dragons respect what the humans consider to be their borders?

Also the humans mostly always lived on the western side of the continent. Kicking out the humans in the east and making the line more apparent by turning the floor into lava isn't actually changing the original borders, just making them harder to violate.

To be fair, the Palestinians are right, because most of the stuff they've been cut off from should actually be theirs and they weren't using vampire magic to annihilate the ecosystem.

The guy you're replying to is wrong, however, because the border wasn't created by dragons. It was enforced by them.

Palestinians are not right. The land was gifted to the jews, the rest was sold by the citizens of palestine. They can accept it or they can keep denying reality and dying for nothing instead of living with what they have/trying to outsmart the jews and buy their land back.

>the rest was sold by the citizens of palestine
lolno, it's mostly been taken by force.

oh please, there are even propaganda vids were they tell kids to hold on the land deeds and never sell it.

>The guy you're replying to is wrong, however, because the border wasn't created by dragons. It was enforced by them.
You keep saying this but where was it stated.
The intro explicitly refers to the continent as having been 'one land' before the split and describes the human exile as driving 'every last human to the West'.
That doesn't sound like what your describing.

'Every last human to the West' doesn't mean most humans weren't there already. I mean, it's retarded to think otherwise, it's an immense stretch of land and there are a bunch of kingdoms there with long, established histories.

who knows. it seems to have been shit land that could not feed the people

>If borders are unimportant, why should the dragons respect what the humans consider to be their borders?
Because it IS their border. It did not exist as a border untill the Elves and Dragons decided it did.

They're free to disregard its existence if they want but but it also means they can't, at least righteously, impose it anymore. They've broken their own illusion.

Hypocrisy. You can't ignore that humans violated the border and then claim that the Xadians were wrong for doing so. Especially since what they are doing is in retaliation for a previous violation.

The logical thing would be that there where humans all over the continent.

If the humans violated a border that was not of their own making, it is a lesser hypocrisy than its breaking by those who created it.
Both sides are flawed but the show has established a power dynamic wherein the magical creatures hold a higher status and have more autonomy. That is relevant.

Sounds like committing seppuku, except they couldn't show seppuku

According to the intro, the entire continent was once just as lush and magical as the eastern half. It seems that over time the west has been depleted of its magical resources and I'm assuming this had an effect on its mundane resources.

>If the humans violated a border that was not of their own making, it is a lesser hypocrisy than its breaking by those who created it.
It's not hypocritical to cross your border in response to a previous violation. If the people on the other side don't respect it, come into your country, and kill your king, then you have every right to cross over and do the same to them. This isn't the good thing to do but if we're talking realpolitik now that's just the facts.

>Both sides are flawed but the show has established a power dynamic wherein the magical creatures hold a higher status and have more autonomy
Are we sure about that? I mean, it seems that after the divide, neither side was hopping about doing whatever they wanted. The stuff happening now is a result of Thunder's death throwing everything into chaos.

t. mayfly

>The logical thing would be that there where humans all over the continent.
Yeah, there probably were. Every human wasn't pushed to the west, humans in the east were.

The problem is bigger than the show or the writers. The real problem is the west is disappointed with progress and they constantly yearn for the good old days that never existed, either for an Arcadia inhabited by noble savages who happen to share all the current year believes or a fascistic fantasy. Both have in common to be situated in a place in time before the modern civilization twisted the good nature of men. They can't look forward, they want to go back to a place that never exist.

....how to train your magic?

>it seems that after the divide, neither side was hopping about doing whatever they wanted.
Elves have never respected the border. They made secret pathways to trespass into Katolis anytime they wanted, and always have someone stationed at the Moon Nexus "so greedy humans can't use it".

>Now we're getting overt monologues and multi-episode arcs dedicated to open-love, open-boarders and communism
Communism is actively against open-love (burgeous degeneracy) and open-borders, not including the monarchist message

Those villagers would vote for Trump anyway
>this is what the writers actually believe

I find it annoying that people ignore everything in the show to push this silly culture wars agenda.

Let's examine dark magic. Firstly, as of second season, we know that elves have a history with dark magic. We don't know what that is but we do know than they are aware of where it leads, and it was apparently so bad that not!Sauron was shoved into the Phantom Zone for it. We'll bet back to this.

1. Dark magic is useful, but not necessary. We know now that humans actually can learn to channel primal magic, they just have to come at it from a different angle. Dark magic is then essentially a shortcut that gets the raw power of primal magic without the dedication and practice, at the cost of destroying reagents and possible long-term consequences.

2. Dark magic has lead to extreme environmental decay. The half of the continent that humans live on has been almost completely stripped of magic. As such, we know that to use dark magic on a societal scale requires massive overconsumption. This has several problems. The first is that you're driving species to extinction - you might not care about this if you only give a shit about human convenience, but most people do, and the elves clearly do. The second is that dark magic doesn't seem to be renewable on a large scale and if you build your magical traditions on it, and your society on it, you're in for a huge fall when there's just not enough magic left to go around. This also has sinister implications, because if you run out of 'animals' to harvest and you want to continue your dark magic supported status quo, you're going to have to start harvesting intelligent beings. The third issue is speculation but it bears considering: massive changes to the environment can cause big problems in other areas. We already know that a terrible famine swept through western Xadia relatively recently. Who's to say that burning away magic doesn't have dire consequences to the land itself?

>part 2
3. Dark magic appears to be addictive, and possibly has a negative effect on the personality of the user. It also appears to require increasing consumption to sate the user. Even if there's no actual mindfuckery, it has a negative effect in that it trains people to see magical creatures - even intelligent ones - as a set of ingredients. Claudia was giddy with excitement at the thought of everything she could do with dragon bits, apparently unconcerned with the fact that this was a person. Both she and Viren saw the titular dragon prince as a 'weapon' and a 'resource' rather than an intelligent, innocent child. Viren clearly has no qualms with the notion of draining the magic out of sapient beings, and does so on multiple occasions.

Now, we don't know exactly why elves see dark magic as absolutely haram. It could be any of the above reasons, and it could be all of them, and every one would be valid. On the other hand it seems implied through lol i'm not Annatar bros that there is something even more fundamentally malignant about dark magic.

So all in all even if the elves clearly aren't 100% in the right, I'd say they're right about dark magic. It doesn't seem to result in overall good.

>The real problem is the west is disappointed with progress and they constantly yearn for the good old days that never existed
This isn't just the west, this is humanity in general.

>and always have someone stationed at the Moon Nexus "so greedy humans can't use it".
Just saying, if the idea of pushing humans out of the east was to preserve at least half the magical ecosystem, this makes consistent sense.

It's not so bad in Asia. They see progress as a necessity for the western colonialism

> Dark magic has lead to extreme environmental decay. The half of the continent that humans live on has been almost completely stripped of magic. As such, we know that to use dark magic on a societal scale requires massive overconsumption.
My problem with this theory is that dark magic is consistently portrayed as an extremely minor activity, even though it has plenty of mundane applications. You don't see the baker Ezran steals from casually using dark magic to make his jelly tarts extra crispy. or the doctors at the clinic prescribing Claudia a basic nerve-soothing spell for her anxiety. You don't hear old people complaining about the scarcity and exorbitant prices of what once were common magic reagents for their everyday spells, or "back in my days" ramblings. Duren apparently doesn't even have a court mage who could cast the land-warming spell in case Viren was killed during the mission. If the problem elves had with humans was that they built their culture around dark magic, then why isn't human culture built around dark magic? Why aren't humans suffering a total collapse after reportedly causing a mass extinction event on their lands, but instead the five kingdoms are enjoying an era of peace?
If you are going to turn dark magic into some allegory for pollution or the overexploit of natural resources, you have to put more effort into it. Not portray Katolis as a beautiful lush kingdom with centuries-old forests, that maybe has a couple of weather-induced bad harvest years once in a while, like every single civilization in human history.
I'm not saying you are wrong, maybe that's what the writers are going for. But if they are, then they are doing a pretty shitty job at world-building.

It could be that since there's virtually no magic left in the west, humans CAN'T use dark magic for everything anymore. It's not widespread anymore because there's simply not enough materials for it.

Staff has mentioned they have about the same lifespan of humans, they live just slightly more usually, as in years not fucking centuries

The intro was narrated by an elf.

Are you really going to trust an elf to not tell a biased version of the story?

My favorite Elf is this one, change my mind:
discord.gg/S7Ecxtb

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Don't forget why Rayla is the best character

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>Toshimichi Okubo in a Japanese production (Rurouni Kenshin)
>A cool guy that both Kenshin and Saito respect
>Toshimichi Okubo in an American production (The Last Samurai), under the name of Mr Omura
>A moustache twirling villain

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The animation is pretty choppy, but I will say at least the character designs are tolerable - which is a lot more than can be said of other modern cartoons. Infinity Train, for example, just looks like fucking ass. When the show was picked up, the infinity symbol in the main character's glasses from the pilot was replaced with just normal looking glasses. To me, that's a sign nobody gives a single shit about the character design of that show at all. It'd be as if elves had four fingers in the Dragon Prince pilot and then, oops, five fingers now in the main series because nobody told the modeling team about that little detail but whatever. :^)

Really, there's so much laziness in the current animation industry that you really just have to pick your fucking poison. Do you want flash-tier ZANY COMEDY that has hamfisted half-baked LORE, or do you want a cheap CGI pseudo-anime with half-baked worldbuilding that slowly gets better but never lives up to its true potential? Because you won't get a perfect series, not with the current crop of production teams - which seem to all be incompetent as fuck and only get lucky with something great like ATLA or Over the Garden Wall.

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Viren did nothing wrong:
discord.gg/S7Ecxtb

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they're fourteen years old

Dark e- I mean moon elf from Dragon Prince. Lead female. Cute or obnoxious Celtic accent depending on who you ask. You'll definitely feel that elves are for lewd by the end of S2.

She does make fun of our short lifespans when she's doing one of our human parodies on entering the port town.

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Are you trying to get me to exercise? No way fag.

>It could be that since there's virtually no magic left in the west, humans CAN'T use dark magic for everything anymore. It's not widespread anymore because there's simply not enough materials for it.
Except practitioners of dark magic seem to be able to cast various spells by using pretty much anything in the environment, as it seems humans got fucked over by being the only creature not born with magic in them.

Mmm, bit of scorpion, apple from forest, a butterfly, a worm. We've seen this shit.

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Humans might be the only sapient species without an inherent primal source, but they obviously have magic in them.

I have to wonder if they're leading up to dark magic eating actual human beings, with the deer.

Wow, are we copying another anime now?

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She seems to have an inescapable desire to fuck humans, that for sure.

FMA did not invent eating people for power.

>is cute at you

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Yeah but the staff has made no qualms to say how much of a weebs they are and how much of that stuff they try to squeeze in the show

>Show directed by the people from Avatar feels like Avatar

Why would expect something completely different just because?!

Anyone bothered by the deer would have to be one hell of a hypocrite. We hunt and farm animals all the time, just for food, and nature would have done far worse to it. Killing that one animal fixed paralysis.

It would be interesting to see if transferring the deer's life into him caused damage. They already stated that everything in magic comes with a price, and the larger spells have larger prices. Repairing/replacing a human's nervous system when normal black magic didn't work sounds fuck dangerous.

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You are the real weeb for even suggesting they were copying the show. This is a common theme in most fantasy/magic stories. Alchemy isn’t unique to one Japanese show from the 00’s

twitter.com/thedragonprince/status/1052263741390184448
>Naruto Running

>Sailor Moon Reference

And other stuff that was put in the show, yeah FMA didnt even the concept but sure is a well know one and Ehanz/Volpe arent the only one writing the show

I fucking hate them for that and I hate that retard running. I hope a show depicts someone doing that and breaking their neck falling down a hill or something.

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That has literally nothing to do with your statement claiming that they copied off an age old concept from some show. The execution is completely different and is more akin to what was/is done in the real world. The only difference in this world is that it’s not snake oil and actually affects their world. (For example when narwhal tusk chips/dust were highly prized in alchemy and healing because they believed they were from Unicom horns)

It doesn't even work like alchemy did in FMA, which made a huge effort to treat its in-universe magic as being 100% valid as a scientific theory. Alchemy obeys the laws of conservation of mass and energy, for example, which even philosopher's stones use to break other laws of nature. If the souls inside the stones couldn't be turned into matter or energy, then they'd be useless. And arguably, the system even works in reverse; given that human souls had to have been created from matter/energy already existing in the universe.

In contrast, Dragon Prince's magic system seems to be influenced pretty heavily on D&D and ATLA.

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I cannot for a moment believe that they wrote the scene with Viren ABOUT TO OFFER TO DIE FOR HARROW only to be told "DON'T TALK TO A MONARCH LIKE AN EQUAL. KNEEL BEFORE YOUR KING." without at least some intention of showing that monarchies are bad.

Fuck dude, Callum spends a good chunk of time bitching that he's really not qualified to do the things he's expected to do because of birth.

It all comes down to "when they wrote those scenes, did they remember to write down what the intended to do down the line, or are they going to forget?"

I was disappointed to learn this wasn't a comic made by one of the staff. It's actually really damned funny.

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Not if i can stop it! J-just wait for the Warhammer lore to get remade and i become a God

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Reminder we have a booru and are in need of taggers
tdp.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=all

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The show is pushing a neoreactionary vegan agenda

Imagine genociding the Chinese because you don't like their environmental policy

who the fuck puts a watermark on something that looks like it was drawn on a napkin? I mean, it's fine art but why watermark that shit?

Imagine creating a fake strawman scenario because you can't argue with the facts on display.

People will steal any art. It's fucking weird

Forcefullly relocating an entire ethnic population is going to lead to massive amounts of death for that ethnicity unless you're naive enough to believe that most people would leave their lands peacefully, imagine if canada exasperated by the US ignoring climate change somehow toppled the US government, took US land as their own and then deported every American, killing those who resist

See We're fucked

>Forcefullly relocating an entire ethnic population is going to lead to massive amounts of death for that ethnicity
Indeed. However, the situations are still not comparable.

1. The humans that were exiled and elves lived in extremely close proximity, and what one did had an effect on the other. This is pretty different from my relationship with China.

2. China's environmental policies are bad (but getting better) but they are not utterly ravaging entire species populations the way humans have done here.

3. If the Chinese run out of fossil fuel, throwing westerners into generators to keep up their lifestyle is not an option. Something similar IS an option for humans here, however, and we've already seen how practicing dark magic makes people see even intelligent magical beings as potential reagents.

This all aside, by the way, if China started doing something that we knew would very quickly and irreversibly damage the entire ecosystem - and that said thing was addictive and caused people's consciences to degrade - we'd be pretty justified in going to war with them. The planet isn't theirs, they don't get to ruin it for everyone.

If it was that would be better.
But having one form of killing creatures as fuel being wrong whilst another is given a pass is just poor writing.

Right now the seemingly negative impact on the individual is the best argument against it.

>If the Chinese run out of fossil fuel, throwing westerners into generators to keep up their lifestyle is not an option.
Not with that attitude.

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Dark magics deleterious effects haven't been established to be global and the downside for the environment is much less significant than most irl forms of pollution, not having magic isn't that significant when the western kingdoms are just fine. It's also true that if you have the military might to topple every human government on the west side of the continent and deport their entire citizenry to the west you probably aren't threatened by the human kingdoms and preemptively committing genocide because some third world country might eventually commit dark magic motivated acts of terrorism not to mention that deporting all humans is one of the dumbest solutions to the dark magic problem that the elves could've come up with

Dark magic motivated acts of terrorism isn't ethical

We don't have any evidence that the eastern kingdoms used people for their dark magic

The Chinese Emperors buried workers alive in the Great Wall in order to force their ghosts to guard it and repair it for all eternity. I'd call that dark magic.

This.
It's frustrating that Viren is the ONLY character who openly antagonizes the monarchs, so when they use their status to shut him down it's somehow justified.
Everyone else conveniently loves them blindly.

I mean I'm for the genocide of the Chinese but that's getting way off track

That Dark Magic isn't the Dark Magic of the show.

Okay, how bout the time Mao killed millions of swallows because he thought they were eating too many seeds; only to immediately get raped in the ass by a swarm of locusts that could no longer be eaten by birds? I'm sure that's a pretty good comparison to Viren. Maybe it might SEEM okay to hunt down a magical bird so it can be used to make crops grow, but maybe that magical bird is important to the ecosystem and stuff.

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Viren is also in the right, the east shall pay for the millions of live lost in the human exodus from their lands

>A FUCKING ELF

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So far the west has been fine despite the use of dark magic. The main problem is that you might in theory be right but you're making the show seem better written than it is by constructing reasons why dark magic is bad that haven't been established in the show. I'd love it if it turns out that dark magic has way more serious consequences than what they've show already but as is I can't get behind the moral crux of the show, it's also bad writing to have dark magic be evil and portray it as such and then take forever to give the audience a reason to agree

You're right. Really the only negative effects dark magic seems to have is on its users. All it would take is a few shots of trees dying nearby whenever Viren does magic, or fields going fallow, or Viren being responsible for that other kingdom's famine to begin with or whatever in order to actually make any sort of good case against dark magic.

But really, it's no different than eating any other kind of meat. Absurd that the elf gets mad about using magical bugs to make pancakes, but not about the use of eggs. That's another thing, elf should have been vegetarian or something.

The intent of that scene was to show that Harrow was stressed as fuck and tired of Viren's shit. He expected Viren to come in and try to regurgitate his earlier arguments, because, if you haven't noticed, Viren is pretty much incapable of compromise.

Harrow has become disillusioned with his friend and seen how listening to him the past has caused nothing but trouble, and he is tired of having to hear the guy repeat the same shit over and over because he just can't accept anything but his way. It's meant to be tragic that the moment he got to this point of stress and disillusionment and lashed out was the point at which Viren could, feasibly, have had some growth and showed a willingness to be genuinely good. The scene doesn't endorse monarchy, it's about the relationship between two men breaking down at the worst possible moment, after repeated mistakes and failures.

To be fair, we have had mention of a gigantic famine that swept across the west. We don't know if this was caused by fucking up the ecosystem but it is something.

Also, and maybe Yea Forums has become too much of a right-wing shithole for this notion to gain traction... but it is not right to completely destroy shit simply because it's useful. Like, even if it has few or no negative effects on you. Sure, we farm stuff, but we try to make sure that shit doesn't go extinct. We probably wouldn't feel the effects of tigers or lions dying off for good (though the latter would have a remarkable effect on Africa's ecosystem), but we try not to annihilate them anyway.

It also bothers me that the western kingdoms don't have more widespread use of magical animal farms since it significantly lessens the problems with dark magic wrecking ecosystems, it's also probably more efficient than hunting wild animals for dark magic as well. I get that in theory world building and internal consistency can be secondary to other goals that a show has but the show would have to have something to show for it for me not to complain about the setting

Have you considered that a lot of magical animals are simply very hard to keep in captivity.

I see the good in protecting the environment, it's just that someone fucking up the environment isn't a good argument for genocide

Obviously not, since Viren raises butterflies.

Deer before brothers!

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If they're going to fuck it up completely, I honestly think it's a pretty good argument for war. To be quite honest I'd be okay with murdering poachers and the like. They treated the world like something that exists for their convenience, now they are removed from it for the convenience of the world.

And stop saying genocide. Humans were displaced and while that undoubtedly involved bloodshed, they weren't wiped out and the elves never intended to wipe them out. The term is disingenuous at best here.

The show doesn't establish that and it's a contrivance that only exists to make dark magic worse, that and you can still have the kingdoms practing forestry to promote the yield of magical species ala how people used to and still do to increase the population of valuable wild game

I stand by my belief that nobody could have written the scene of Harrow going "you think you're a FRIEND? An EQUAL? Fucking KNEEL before your king" without thinking to themselves that there should be a follow-up addressing how fucked up rule-by-bloodline is.

That doesn't mean that the writers are competent enough to remember to actually do that, but it was a scene that really drew attention to how fucked up traditional monarchies are.

But this is a deeply inconsistent show, and I get the feeling that - like Voltron - they didn't plan things out enough in advance, and are putting in scenes and concepts that will have no payoff.

It's weird because Avatar wasn't the tightest-plotted story out there, but every "successor" has been far looser in planning, very much to the detriment of the show in the final analysis.

Sure. Not every magical creature is going to be a butterfly, though. What about shit like that gigantic stone giant that was actually an intelligent being and they killed anyway?

Death marches certainly quality as genocide, see something like the Armenian genocide

Most of the magical creatures we've seen actually WOULD be hard to keep in captivity. Giant magic fish thing, griffon, stone giant, dragons, etc.

Giant stone monsters could be comparable to elephants (in that they are not domesticated, but can be gathered and trained or whatever from their native habitat), but most magical animals used for rituals that we've seen seem to just be magical animals.

we need more best bois here
discord.gg/S7Ecxtb

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Elves literally break the boarders and keep precious resources that is on the human half locked up and unaccessible, despite it being there property.

How do you know it was even a death march? Keep in mind that a death march is defined as one where no care is taken in regard to the deportees and they are left to die when they fall ill or hungry. A forced march is not a death march.

Why do those resources belong to dark mages by default?

Because it’s on their half of the border?

That’s like saying why does the USA have the right to use its resources as it pleases?

This cartoon looks too much like anime. Anime is shit, stop trying to be like it.

what part of human side you didnt got?
If there was lost human shit on the elf side it should be ok for humans to go grab it because fuck you?

There's no way something on the scale of deporting multiple kingdoms worth of people to the west was done ethically with preexisting racist sentiment against humanity

if we don't getElf-Callum, I will be mildly upset

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Here Checked mega Satan

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Probably because you don't have to actually understand it to use it. Hence why it's "easy".

The way I see it, unless you're doing research for it, you're just another script kiddie.

>There's no way something on the scale of deporting multiple kingdoms worth of people to the west was done ethically with preexisting racist sentiment against humanity

It can be done if the writers say "that's how it happened."

And when it comes to that, these are not very good writers. They're good at "oh fuck, a little kid fell in the lake!" stuff, not so good at geopolitics.

The elves are just racist.

Do you think elves are racist against each other? They don't seem to mix much from the little we've seen so far.

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You still have to understand dark magic to use it, the difference is you have to have a spiritual experience to use primal magic it's not comparable to having an understanding of programming vs being a script kiddie, it's more like if people could magically use their faith in religion to code

The whole point about the thread is that poor writing makes the elves look evil despite that not being the writers intentions

>despite that not being the writers intentions
[citation needed]
It's pretty unambiguous they're the bad guys.

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>Probably because you don't have to actually understand it to use it.
Callum tried that and he KO'd himself for three episodes.
It obviously requires some training and skill, as only Viren was qualified to cast the magma heart spell. I guess it's like cooking: you can have the recipe and ingredients for macarons at hand, but if you have never baked a cookie in your life, you are going to mess up spectacularly.

To be fair, script kiddies just do the steps without regards why it happens. I would assume that viren was one when he first started using it, much like that protagonist kid I forgot his name. He was shown more than once just copying what Claudia did, but since plot demanded, he now spiritually understands storm arcana.

It is actually comparable to having spiritual experience to use primal magic. Have you never seen children who pick up maths and other logical subjects quite quickly?

It's less like religion and more like irl occult magic traditions if they actually worked which would be hard work but not harder than the intellectual study needed for dark magic

>To be fair, we have had mention of a gigantic famine that swept across the west.

No we haven't. One of the five kingdoms had a serious drought. That's hardly "sweeping across the west."

Give it to me straight, guys. Are the elves hypocritical idiots/monsters, or are they a mouthpiece of the writers/show creators? I love me some elves getting revealed as assholes but I don't want to watch if they're a whole race of Lisa Simpsons.

Are you serious

How do you know, Mega Satan? How do you know there was preexisting racist sentiment against humanity, even?

This doesn't really look like a trial of tears. Nobody's being shot or beaten. Nobody looks like they're starving. This actually looks like a modern deportation.

The Protagonist was using primal magic when he was copying Claudia so that just seems to be how magic in general is at a low level, as for the spiritual experience thing that's not how I relate to math but I'm not going to question you if that's how it works for you
is more in line with what I'd compare primal magic to though

>She makes fun of humans
Racial stereotypes. Elves are racist as fuck.

The writers look like the kind of faggots that have Lisa as their favorite Simpsons character.

The narrative is balanced, HFY just want to pretend that elves are monsters and the show is rooting solely for them. In reality both sides are understandable and the actual issue is that everyone is perpetuating a chain of revenge that should have been cut ages ago. Elves aren't hypocrites but they have let humanity's bad decisions convince them that humans simply can't be coexisted with. Humans aren't hypocrites but they refused to acknowledge any fault and are short-sighted.

Sure. What makes those resources belong to dark mages to exploit?

Look more like the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. Probably that's what the staff really intended but theologists already struggle to make god into the good guy and the elves are a lousy replacement, not including the real-life equivalents

It's a kids show

(Magic resources elves are blocking humans from having, despite it being on there half).

Human half
_______ (dragons)

Elf half

(Lots of magical resources humans don’t stop them from accessing).

>What makes those resources belong to dark mages to exploit?

The fact that Elves and Dragons pushed Humans into the corner with said resources and loudly proclaimed "STAY ON YOUR SIDE!"

>How do you know there was preexisting racist sentiment against humanity, even?
One of the texts Viren tries to read when he's researching Aaravos's name was written by a human who was sick of elves and dragons treating humanity like lesser beings.

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Why should magical resources be used by dark mages? What makes them the property of dark mages? What makes them inherently resources?

You're essentially guilty of the problem with dark mages in this show. They see everything magical as a resource that belongs to them, that they can use as they please, with no thought to sustainability or consequences. You've decided that magic things exist to be exploited by humans. What if someone disagrees?

>corner
They have half the continent.

And frankly, if those resources are important to the world, protecting them from dark mages is fine.

Yes, because a dark mage making deals with elf Satan is totally trustworthy and unbiased.

>What if someone disagrees?

Then that someone is free to choke down a heaping helping of fireballs thanks to the red beetles I just sacrificed.

If it's a matter of might makes right, then, then the elves are right. Because they won.

Borders are dark magic now?

>if those resources are important to the world,

And who gets to decide what is and isn't important to the world? Because I'll tell you right now, the world does not give half a fat shit about Elves, Dragons, gryphons, or anyone else.

I don't care about borders. What makes magical things inherently a resource to be exploited? That seems kinda entitled, breh.

My half of the border, my shit.

Go fuck off and use your own stuff.

Is this a reference to something?

Imagine invading a foreign country who's people you'd previously massacred to prevent them from accessing their oil

And yet Thunder got gutted like a trout. Sure seems like a win for Elfkind to me.

What makes water a resource to be exploited? What makes trees a resource to be exploited?

It’s on our land, so it belongs to us. We can use it as we see fit. Don’t like it, to bad.

Technically if you want to get really real, nothing is important to anything. We generally want the world to stay nice to live in, though. That's what someone means when they say something is important to the world.

Well, if using something on your land has consequences for the world, it's time for you to get your shit slapped into the ground.

He's way more trustworthy than your headcanons about ethical ethnic cleansing.

>What makes magical things inherently a resource to be exploited?

What makes trees inherently a resource to be exploited? What makes water a resource inherently to be exploited? What makes carrots a resource? Flax? Goats? Iron ore? Coal? Bone meal? Chickens? Manual labor? It's because they have a use. They are resources because they are useful.

Magical creatures have uses, too. Ergo, they are a resource. The entire function of a resource is to be exploited. I'm actually kinda saddened that I have to explain this to you.

Why are people ignoring that humans actually can use primal magic? They literally don't need to fuck the world over by draining magic out of it. They just need to suck it up and come at the problem from another perspective.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

Last I checked elves don't live in the west, the exploitation of resources in the west doesn't effect them. Plus dark magic has useful medical properties like helping cripples walk again which is kind of more important than protection the environmental integrity of land that doesn't even belong to you

I'm actually kinda saddened that you're so rigid in your thinking you can't even understand what's being said.

Why should people accept that something exists solely as a resource? A resource is only a resource if it is used that way, it's not an inherent quality of anything.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that squishing magical fireflies probably isn't going to lead to severe global climate change or make the rivers too polluted to drink from.

Except it doesn't, all damage from dark magic so far has been localized, you also wouldn't go to war with another country because of their carbon emissions

The environmental integrity of the land is actually more important than one dude, sorry. Especially since the more damage you do to one place, the more ripple effect you cause elsewhere.

>Except it doesn't, all damage from dark magic so far has been localized
We don't know this. Especially in the case of a big leyline-like structure, which is what we're discussing.

And said Elf Satan narrating the prolouge is?

It’s very easy for you act like someone else’s resources should be kept protected and they should never use them.

But the people who have those resources sure as hell don’t agree with that. Why shouldn’t they get to use there resources while you do?

This human is objectively incorrect, as humans actually can use primal magic. Maybe if he wasn't an insecure, self-centered asshat and instead was a based patrician like Callum, he'd be able to come to the spiritual awakening necessary to use primal magic.

What we've learned from S2 is that humans essentially just decided that actual magic is too hard, so they were going to use the knockoff shortcut version by making a deal with obviously Sauron.

I'd love it if it turns out if the east was canonical in the wrong the whole time after having been manipulated by elf Satan

>you're so rigid in your thinking

Hello, Mr. Pot. My name is Kettle. How are you today?

>Why should people accept that something exists solely as a resource?

Why shouldn't they? Take pigs, for example. Pigs are awesome. They're smart, they make great pets. But they also taste good, their hides are an excellent source of leather, and their bodies are useful for forensic testing.

Just because a pig is an excellent resource doesn't mean you don't care about or respect it.

Usually prologues are a way of conveying important setting defining information to the audience. Fuck, if he had a reason to be deceitful there, he'd be painting the humans as right and the elves as wrong.

>shortcut
>requires complex rituals

>Hello, Mr. Pot. My name is Kettle. How are you today?
Not applicable. You are literally refusing to accept that other perspectives can be valid. I'm not saying yours is invalid... just that it's not the only one.

>Why shouldn't they? Take pigs, for example. Pigs are awesome. They're smart, they make great pets.
You just pointed out some great reasons for people disagreeing with your own point. You can say that the usefulness of pigs makes them inherently a resource and therefore it's fine to use them that way. Someone else can bring up the exact points you brought up (plus more, like how they're some of the most genetically similar animals to humans around) in counter, saying that their uses don't outweigh these things. And neither of you would be wrong, you'd just be seeing things differently.

>get told constantly by Elves and Dragons that you have no magic
>said Elves and Dragons get super fucking pissed when you try to go to a nexus
>don't have the wherewithal to actually study any primal sources even if you thought that you could
>"humans are just insecure, self-centered asshats for not learning something they were told they could never do!"

I couldn't tell if you were trying to bait or if you really were that retarded, so I responded in good faith.

Just because the authors are retarded doesn't mean they're canonically wrong

It is a shortcut compared to primal magic, which requires going on an inward spirit journey of some kind and accepting hard shit about the world and yourself.

>get told constantly by Elves and Dragons that you have no magic
How do you know this?

>said Elves and Dragons get super fucking pissed when you try to go to a nexus
How do you know this? They're only pissed at humans doing that because they use dark magic.

>don't have the wherewithal to actually study any primal sources even if you thought that you could
Primal magic literally requires less stuff than dark magic. The only thing you need to activate your ability to use primal magic seems to be strength of character and an open mind.

>"humans are just insecure, self-centered asshats for not learning something they were told they could never do!"
We don't know they were told this.

It doesn't seem that hard when a teenage boy could achieve spiritual enlightenment

>aavaros develops dark magic for some reason
>to save a dying loved one, maybe?
>the other elves stop him, which kinda sours him on his own people
>he sees how elves and dragons treat humans like shit
>teaches humans dark magic so that the playing field is equal
>elves lose their shit and draw a line over the continent with lava like some fucking 1990's sitcom
>aaravos gets locked away in the mirror dimension as punishment
>being locked in solitary for however many hundreds of years drove him completely fucking insane and now he just wants everyone to burn

I'd buy that for a dollar.

>you'd just be seeing things differently.

And I accept they they see things differently. That was never the issue. What YOU aren't getting is that the REAL issue is with motherfuckers breaking into my pig farm, killing my workers, and stealing all my goddamn pigs because they think bacon is wrong.

Fuck you. Those are my pigs.

Aaravos was there watching as humans were forced into exile. Who know what his master keikaku is.

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Because Humans don't know they can.

The American policy in the middle-east?

The entire conflict was all one of Aaravos' elaborate pranks.

based and brapppilled

If your foreign policy mirrors that of America you're not in the moral right

So we know that Rayla has issue with her parents, you hope we see this bring properly next season or later on? Seems her family is important on the Moonshadow elf folk

I'm pretty sure there's something important involving Thunder's assassination that we haven't been told yet. I doubt Rayla's parents are simply cowards.

What Leylines? You can't just use your headcanons to justify the in series writing.

Heck, we don't even know if Dark Magic IS the reason there isn't much magic in the human half.
For all we know, it was like that before, or the all the magical creatures migrated.
Double heck, we don't even know the extent of the damage the Dark Mages did, it's never stated.

But don't you see some pity in his eyes as he watches the Humans get forced out of their homes.

I think Aaravos just despises how the Elves treat the Humans as lower class.

It is wrong when humans can do magic just like elves. I mean why would you kill an animal when you can just draw a rune with your hand and cast whatever the fuck you want?
Seriously Season 2 made the Human x Elves dynamic to be dumb.
>but user it's obviously a ploy from the villain to keep peopel segregated and at war
Guess what they already had that shit? The villain already had made the entire world believe that all storm dragons were ded thanks to humans.
This extra layer removes all the interesting aspects of the cultural problem humans and elves had to deal. Now, dark magic is just straight up bad and wrong and doing it instead of regular magic only harms the user in the long run

Ther term 'unreliable narrator' comes to mind.
We don't know what his intentions are, he could be misleading either way.

Sauron also despised the way the Valar treated men

If you think war for oil is correct you need to do more research media zombie. Not that freedom has anything to do with it either.

So you're discounting the difficulty because the only we know of that's done it is a minor? That's straight retardation. He was hellbent on using magic, was addled after using black magic without guidance, and nearly died on the journey.

You know how many teens made world changing inventions? Christ. Take advantage (financially) of the little fuckers. The fucking TV was invented by a teenager, the Colt revolver, look at the shit Tesla was up to.

The Trail Of Tears comparison comes straight from Ehaz's mouth (or keyboard).
Given his desire for representation, I'm really curious if he's going to carry through with painting the exile as being even somewhat justified.

The point with oil is that the elves are in the wrong, they're foreign aggressors throwing their weight around, plus the problem isn't that Callum is a minor, it's that he's not written as mature enough to believably be someone who could achieve spiritual enlightenment any time soon. You're telling me no other human in the western continent was as mature and wise as callum?

He got half his guidance from a blind sailor. The implication seems to be many people are wise enough for it, they just largely have no interest/ambitions towards magic. Most believe dark magic is the end all be all besides

>Now, dark magic is just straight up bad and wrong and doing it instead of regular magic only harms the user in the long run
I think the only way they could get it somewhat back, at least for the backstory, is to follow through with the apartheid idea and explore the nuances of when an oppressed people take up violence for the sake of their own liberty.
They can still call Dark Magic "bad" but actually grapple with the 'ends justify the means' ideology...without just going BOTH SIDES!

The barrier to entry is so low that it's not believable that humans don't use primal magic or even that using primal magic is somehow harder than dark magic which has a significant material cost and fucks over the users as well

"Near death experience" is a barrier I don't think many desire to cross

>He got half his guidance from a blind sailor.
Did you take a spirit trip literally? The point that was his affinity is wind. Struggling to breathe as a child, sailing, drowning, being the sails, riding the sails, controlling but not controlling, etc.
Really? It seems like the barrier is being guided into dark magic, and feeding it like a drug addiction instead of hoping you connect to some truth of the world.

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He only nearly died because of the condition he was in leading up to achieving "enlightenment". In a more controlled environment it would be piss easy to create human primal magic users

If fucking Callum has the strength of character to walk the path of primal magic there should be a shit ton of other humans that can as well

>Black kid serves no purpose other than "randumb" humor and being right all the time

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The blind sailor was part of his spirit quest in the first place because his interactions with him revealed the guy had an intimate connection with the element he was trying to attune to, as indicated by his stupid good sailing skills and his own words of "feeling a connection". He didn't literally have an arcanum, but served as an example of the mindset required

>I hate niggers

It's Netflix, be glad he wasn't carrying a bow and arrow.

This isnt an Azula thread you literal sociopath

At least he admitted he needed to man the fuck up and return home to clean the mess his father left behind for him.

It's not about hating niggers it's about a character being flat and remaining flat despite other people saying how much he has grown.

Sociopaths are monsters that are locked in cages. I am not one of those.

I hope the one-of-a-kind magical key lying conveniently near Callum while he had his spirit journey also played a role.

>despite other people saying how much he has grown.
When?
Just what a sociopath would say

Deers aren’t magic either. And yet they’re able to use one to heal paralyzation

How fucked up would that be if the other elves kinda forced him to be there?

>You're going to watch them go into exile, and then you're going into the mirror. You did this, Aaravos. Never forget that.

Wonder what are are going to be the new elves to focus next season, could it be the earth ones? People want them to be unironically dwarves, would we going to see more Moonshadow ones? Also what is the damn name of the water ones?

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I feel like having direct contact with a primal orb and sky dragon may have contributed

Maybe Skywing elves, so Callum can learn a bit more sky magic and meet his dad. I really don't want him to unlock one arcana after the other, let him focus on his current element. Sunfires will probably get more screentime too, depending on what Sol Regem is up to.
>Also what is the damn name of the water ones?
I don't think it's been revealed yet.

If it's really that convoluted and based in mcguffins it kind of undermines the whole point about primal magic being based in spiritual enlightenment and humans being bad for using dark magic instead

I'm thinking the key because, well, it's a key, there's only one, and his original owner is the only other mage we know that has formed an arcanum. Human mages have been tinkering with primal stones for centuries, and they used to live alongside dragons. If being surrounded by primal magic was enough to make humans "understand" the cosmos and form their connection, they wouldn't have needed dark magic.

>the whole point about primal magic being based in spiritual enlightenment

But it isn't? Elves and other magical creatures don't have to obtain any sort of enlightenment. They're simply born connected to their primal source.

>primal magic being based in spiritual enlightenment
That's already undermined by having Rayla explain her primal magic via a Sailor Moon impersonation. So much enlightenment and spirituality!

The show has a whol spiel about dark magic being the easy way out and being spiritually hollow

Rayla's pretty sit at actually using her magic though. Nowhere near on the level of Lujanne, and she started spouting Plato's Cave analogies when asked about it. Degree of understanding seems to correlate with actual ability

Yeah, and? That doesn't change the fact that enlightenment isn't something you can be born with.

Whole*

Callum derives his shit from mcguffins though, possessing / being near material objects has nothing to do with spiritual growth

She still gets an arcanum and a fullmoon power-up by virtue of being born an elf. No spiritual enlightenment required. Captain Villads understands the sky better than she understands the moon, and you don't see him sprout wings during a storm.

I'd say they have fairly similar understandings actually; they get it on an instinctual level but don't really understand it in an intelligent communicable way. The captain's one trick is just sailing good while Rayla's is disappearing on a full moon. Seems like the captain got the better deal imo

>communicable way
That could be an issue for her. The girl that went from verbal love confession to wetting her finger for clean eye crusties off him. Award elf bad with words.

This. It’s just not realistic.

A human just did primal magic. That mean they are magical. That means that elves are hypocrites that are killing magical creatures.

I almost enjoyed it

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And he's spent half his life sailing while she was born with it.
They can't make a point about how humans are bad and lazy and evil for using dark magic instead of primal magic like everyone else, when a human has to work ten times harder than an elf to get a fraction of the results.

Genuine question.

If the goal is to bring peace by coming back with an offering with a human, isn't a rogue elf with a human you're romantically attached to a hilariously bad choice? Wouldn't your own kind just view that as jungle fever? "See, humans aren't racist, this one is trying to sleep with me." At best you're going to have people screaming NO RACE-MIXING.

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Callum mostly

Rayla's supposedly a highly trained member of an assassin cult and is pointed out as unusually talented by her own also moon elf mentor

What their child name would be?:
discord.gg/S7Ecxtb

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>Sociopaths are monsters that are locked in cages.
As long as you don't break any laws you are more than capable of functioning in society, and prioritizing things other than empathy you sociopath. Even more disturbing you learn to fake basic emotion.

Nothing sugest that such a thing actually happens.

If someone learns to be normal, does it even matter?

You haven't though

Because Star Trek fucking sucks.

Elves are born with arcana, user, this is not debatable. If you put the Key of Aaravos next to a newborn elf, it lights up. Humans have to go through spiritual quests and/or lots of vital experience just to maybe get the same thing.

Worse, a namefag.

As long as I'm not in prison I am just like everyone else. Also let's stop talking about this and let's start talking about how this show sucks.

He's a tripfag newfriend. There's a difference. That's what makes him a dangerous sociopath.

I'm expecting the elves to take a good look at Callum and go "A prince, you say? Cool, free hostage!".

Everything you say makes you seem more and more like a sociopath

you should read the archive of his posts, literal textbook sociopath behavior, it amusing in a sick way

Humans are the niggers of species. They deserve death.

Go fuck yourselves. Honestly it's you morally high horse faggots that pollute the board with your constant white knighting and shitty Steven Universe threads.

It's just fun to bully name fags

So you came into a thread about a show you didn't like and expected people not to call you out?

Tripcode users are hilarious. It's like locking a shitstained diaper onto yourself.

Why do modern shows keep promising complex morality and depth but continuously fail to deliver?

Why do kids shows keep being praised for having heroes with flaws when there kids books out there that actually have protagonists dealing with having to murder.
Why does everyone freak every time there's a villain who isn't twirling his mustache, as if it's the FIRST TIME EVER

animation is still in a ghetto

>Aaravos is just manipulating Viren and will drop or turn on him as soon as he's useful
>Aaravos isn't going to grow oddly fond of the human as Viren actually get's to know and trust him. He won't reveal his true plan that Viren actually finds himself believing in and they won't become close allies with a bond that matches and challenges the heroes own
I just want villains who are equally powered by love and friendship

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>A much less harmful invasion
>two lives
>a village
>less harmful
Fucking dragosympathiser

Depends on the communism.
>open love
They're okay with it now as it's the degeneracy of the week
>open boarders
They've always wanted to go global. Any global administration is anti-borders unless you consider space a border