I'm reading the original series from the 70s and she's not terribly interesting. She gets handed her powers without any real conflict besides amnesia, as well as a cushy job with (male) side characters telling her what she can't do just to make her seem more oppressed.
The OG She-Hulk series from around the same time is way more interesting in terms of conflict and character development.
Manga is the future, senpai
The Brian Reed series, OTOH, seems more appealing to me for some reason.
It can't be helped. Was always designed as the "we need a woman character who isn't overly tied to a specific group", only to lack a real identity and end up being Avengers-tied. Still worked out better than the first batch of The Cat, Night Nurse, and Shanna.
I can never quite get my superhero fix from manga because even when it's imitating superhero comics, it feels very "anime". That, and it's usually not very good. I'm about to drop My Hero Academia - feels like the plot's going nowhere, and even when it does it's kind of a snoozefest. One Punch Man is at least reliably fun but also a self-aware gimmick
Really, the thing closest to my ideal superhero comic that actually exists anywhere is Astro City
I thought the letter pages were more interesting a bunch of women bitching and some praising it and others going "Yes I like it but X worries me".
>reaching for anything to shit on Carol now that she BTFO BvS and Black Panther's opening weekend.
>reaching for anything to shit on Carol now that she BTFO BvS and Black Panther's opening weekend.
I could give two shits about the movies. I liked the character in EMH and wanted to see what she was originally like.
I started with Reed's run and doubled back to the 70s stuff, but it seems I made a mistake.
Complaining about Carol pushing is at least as old as Marvel NOW!
It's hilarious to me that the Women of Marvel Omnibus, released around 2010, has Night Nurse, Shanna, She-Hulk, Patsy Walker, and fucking MILLIE THE MODEL but the only Captain Marvel stories present feature Monica instead of Carol.
Jojo's pretty good, though I don't know if it's about superheroes as much as it's about superpowers.
feminist characters don't make sense in 2019 because the experience of gens y and z and maybe x are a female-dominated society where women are often more masculine than men.
from a propaganda perspective it would make way more sense to do a kamala movie or have a tranny superhero, or something.
>the experience of gens y and z and maybe x are a female-dominated society
???
Is this what they teach you in /r9k/? Not even /pol/ is this retarded, and they're really fucking retarded.
Do you have any concrete examples?
what's your metric for saying that isn't true?
my metric for saying it is true would be things like most parenting done by women by way of massive divorce rates and unfair custody, most teachers are women, lots of outsourcing of male-dominated jobs while there's massive affirmative action for women in a lot of the jobs that still exist etc.
i have had more women employers than men, more women teachers than men, all the guys i know have absentee, henpecked or divorced dads etc.
Yeah, she was always boring.
>Jojo's pretty good
No, that's just a meme. It's really just 6/10.
Not bad, but nothing that's really great. Well, unless you are into the extreme homosexual undertones.
Didn't they have a character originally introduced as female become a guy because having prison dykes wasn't allowed by the editors?
>Maybe Carol was always boring
truly a breakthrough
there's no maybe about it. at her best she's only ever been mildly entertaining, at her worse she was a complete joke of a character. now she's funny for entirely different reasons
was Dazzler any better?
Dazzler falls into the "fad character". More in like with how Marvel started pushing horror comics once the restrictions were lifted because those were popular.
>THIS FEMALE FIGHTS BACK!
Problematic, rape culture, ree, etc.
Nice that they used the word 'heroine', though. These days Americans seem to forget that hero is a masculine word. Looks like you lot had a higher standard of education once upon a time.
>Problematic, rape culture, ree, etc.
Like I said in the OP, I love the She-Hulk issues from the same era, but this series feels so cringy, even for the 70s. Despite her origins (securing a copyright), at least Jen feels like a real, conflicted heroine.
Carol's portrayal almost makes her like an unintentional parody of second wave feminism.
She ranged from good to decent during Reed's run. The solo after House of M.
That was about how Carol had been a giant fuck up, and her looking at her past and trying to be better. Which, kind of funny, since she continued to just be a fuck up in the book.
I never found Carol that interesting.
Now Rogue with Carol's powers was better than Ms Marvel / Cpt Marvel.
How much did you really read?
I read that one about a year ago, and yeah, she was boring from the beginning.
Misogynist.
I can off the top of my head name at least five female Marvel characters better than Carol: Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Monica Rambeau, The Wasp, and Scarlet Witch.
The fanservice in that book was pretty good, too.
Honestly, cheesecake aside, it's a pretty fun run. The whole D-list superhero trying to become an A-list supehero, but Carol just can't stop fucking up concept was pretty good. Also I wish she'd gotten with Spidey for more than date and the Siege tie-in. They were cute together.
Hilarious, ain't it? Rogue was introduced to be an arch-enemy for Ms. Marvel... yet, within 4 issues, she'd joined the X-Men and went on to be one of their leading ladies, whilst Carol wallowed in obscurity until Marvel-Disney needed a leading lady to promote.
Was she any better on the Avengers? Or in the X-men?
>Was she any better on the Avengers? Or in the X-men?
Busiek gave her alcoholism and the only stuff I've seen of her in X-Men was when she became Binary.
Here is one from issue #3, the first one is of a so called NASA Electrical engineer and half owner of a comic book store. She didn't like the use of Ms.
There was also a fan letter by Jo Duffy who ended up working with Marvel and Mary Bierbaum who ende dup co-writing LOSH with her husband. Too lazy to look for them though.
Monica is a pretty one note joke. Also her powers are OP as shit; how did editorial allow that?
I did find the one with Mary Bierbaum (this was before she was married) she also didn't like the Ms. I didn't know there was so much controversy over the Ms. thing.
Well it was an abbreviation introduced since Mrs. and Miss both denote a relationship status instead of purely a formal address. Also identities are a really touchy subject in general.
Ok one more, this one has a reader pointing out that she doesn't like that Carol is a female version of a male character. Also they don't like Mike (I dind't either).
Ah I see
>I just read the 2nd issue of Ms. Marvel, and I was wondering who changed Carol Danvers' clothes and tucked her into bed when she passed out in the taxi (turn to page 10 and then turn to page 15). A whole lot of my friends have been telling me that it was probably a dirty old man who did it. Please answer my mystery question so that I can tell all my friends the real truth.
>Gregory Hall
Lol.
Imagine Black Widow kicking you and calling you a pig to get out pent up anger about her husband having a fake death and appearing as an enemy on the field of battle only to get killed by his ally.
I only know Carol from her wiki article. Apparently, she spent some time on the X-men after returning from the Marcus Immortus incident in The Avengers Annual #10, then left them and joined the Starjammers after she turned into Binary.
Then don't read capeshit manga. Seriously. Don't read shonen either. Shit gets repetitive fast. If you want good manga, don't go for those published on a weekly basis. The reality of shit like deadlines makes weekly manga pretty shit in the overall plot department, unless you're some insane madman who can somehow thrive in that kind of environment.
Carol's claims to fame are creating Rogue and becoming Binary. Her Warbird arc is mildly interesting, but Binary has honestly been the charachter's best run.
>Was always designed as the "we need a woman character who isn't overly tied to a specific group"
Not really, they were fine with most of their characters being tied to groups. Carol was just more part of their attempt to capitalize on Women's Lib as a growing cultural movement which started with those earlier heroes you mentioned: the Black Widow solo strip, The Cat, Shana etc. Carol was the longest-lasting effort out of that first batch, which was kind of surprising desu considering that she was a (dropped) supporting character from a book that had previously struggled to find readers or even a coherent plotline, Captain Marvel.
Compare that to Black Widow, who was the focus of a couple of well-remembered plotlines in Silver Age Iron Man and Avengers before her solo outing, and who lasted way shorter, and it seems kind of impressive.
That Women of Marvel Omnibus was extremely fucking shitty in its conception. It includes the infamously sexist Steve Gerber Mandrill story from Shana/Daredevil. It's bewildering.
>Jen is better than Carol
No shit, this was always the case
>extreme homosexual undertones
This is how you know someone didn't actually read the manga and just saw the gay looking poses and thought it was all that.
Maybe not nu She-Hulk.
I read the entire Marvel Masterworks: Ms Marvel collection and is clearly that even back them she was a attempt by the Marvel editorial to create their own “Wonder Woman” but she couldn’t stand on her own and in the end became a plot device for a more popular X-Men character.
My problem with shounen manga is that unlike comics they put a larger emphasis on community work than individual achievements. Its why i like people like Spiderman and Iron Man who mostly relied on their own skills and progressed over time on there own more than say Deku, who has to be mentored to become good.
Yeah I tried to read original Ms Marvel and what i've noticed is that she had an interesting premise( Having two personalities that have no knowledge of the other, but still affects the others life), but they never went far enough with the personal problems of each. Hell I don't think Ms Marvel even interacted with many other heroes, it would've been nice to see an interaction with her and Spiderman when she was fighting scorpion.
>i have had more women employers than men, more women teachers than men,
Teachers is a job that doesn't pay well and isn't valued that much by society (everybody like to say teachers are important bu everybody also shit on them). So, you get more women than men becoming teachers.
The more powerfull and rich employers in the world are mostly (by a large mergin) men.
The wage gap, even for the same jobe in the same domain is tipped toward men.
Domestic violences result in hugely more injuries and deaths for women than men.
Your parenting thing doesn't mean anything because single mothers are more present in the lower part of middle class and among the poors. They're not powerfull.
>I can never quite get my superhero fix from manga because even when it's imitating superhero comics, it feels very "anime". That, and it's usually not very good.
I can't get into manga for capeshit fix or otherwise. Because no matter the genre, no matter the series, NO MATTER WHAT MANGA IT IS, there is always, ALWAYS a fuckin tournament arc where all narrative momentum comes to a standstill and every character lingers around watching each other take turns fighting and making sideline commentary about how such and such as so super strong he's gone past his limits burning justice oh I must succeed.
I'll never understand Japan's boner for tournament arcs, but they pollute every fucking thing they do.
Single mothers ruin societies and a disproportionate amount of serial killers and criminals come from a single mother household
>Single mothers ruin societies
But African American children are predominantly raised in fatherless homes and they always turn out alright.
Shame that this post got ignored because it ultimately gives proper context to the tone used during that early run and explains why she's the way she is. But at least I hope this distills the notion that she wasn't supposedly a "feminist character" from the start like someone yesterday claimed with a straight face, when everything from her name to her attitude is precisely 2nd wave feminism.
As for the whole "reads like a parody" thing, frankly that's just Silver Age storytelling and reading it outside that context while expecting something that holds up is pretty asinine. Try reading some old Wonder Woman stuff and you'll find yourself in the same conundrum, although it helps that she was definitely way more cookie-cutter and there's some endearing aspect to that.
>That Women of Marvel Omnibus was extremely fucking shitty in its conception. It includes the infamously sexist Steve Gerber Mandrill story from Shana/Daredevil. It's bewildering.
It is very hit-or-miss. The only reason I bought it (super cheap at a Half Price Books) is because I am an autist when it comes to She-Hulk and wanted Marvel Graphic Novel #9 and Ceremony in hardcover.
>Yeah I tried to read original Ms Marvel and what i've noticed is that she had an interesting premise( Having two personalities that have no knowledge of the other, but still affects the others life)
Which, again, is something that OG She-Hulk did much, much better.
>But African American children are predominantly raised in fatherless homes and they always turn out alright.
Nigga, stop playin'.
The black community in America is basically a matriarchy and it's killed the black family and black achievement. Most blacks were Republicans before the civil rights era, which was then hornswaggled from us by militant white feminists and their elite gay friends.
Erotic comic book power fantasies about super-women aside, we can all agree that a female run society focuses too much on meaningless reactionary emotional bullshit.
What kinda shit have you read? All the manga i read doesn't have tournament arcs.
Why do those pages make me horny?
>Why do those pages make me horny?
Because She-Hulk is portrayed as obscenely powerful, yet realistically feminine.
A beautiful monster that you secretly want to cuddle with, which is also how I feel about her current era portrayal
Also, she was way more unhinged back then.
And here we have her softer side.
Clearly she was somebody's waifu, even back then.
>Maybe not nu She-Hulk.
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
>Hell I don't think Ms Marvel even interacted with many other heroes,
She meets Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson in the first issue but it kind of goes nowhere.
I've made this argument with friends that Carol Danvers is a boring character and the characters that replace her are always more interesting. Rogue was more interesting and did more with her powers then she ever did. Moonstone as Ms. Marvel in the Dark Reign stuff was way more interesting the Carol was, even when Carol was the villain. Kamala Kahn has been so much more interesting as Ms Marvel then Carol ever was as well. And fuck, characters she has replaced have been more interesting then she is.
Pretty much. Her original run was extremely milquetoast compared to everything else Marvel was producing at the time. After that run she had nothing interesting going on, besides fucking her son, giving Rogue Powers, and almost killing Lockjaw.
Genis-Vell is honestly my favorite Marvel, and his 2000 run should’ve been the basis for the movie (at least the tone).