Any love for the original five X-men?

Warren's been good at times.

I used to really like Beast and Iceman, but the former got shit on so hard he's become impossible to like, and the latter got changed into the kind of gayfag who can't stop talking about how much of a gayfag he is.
Cyclops is okay, Jean a shit, Angel is an eternal afterthought.

Love? In the internet?

Cyclops and Jean are the only interesting ones and Jean is an obnoxious cunt that's better off dead

Beast can be interesting, what with being a relatively unique character among X-Men, the issue is he's kind of an asshole.

There's enough genius assholes in marvel and plenty of other x-men who're upset about being ugly freaks
He doesn't do much for me at all.

He's specialized in genetics, fucked himself up by trying to not be a mutant, and likes to pontificate. Those are pretty unique traits in an X-Men cast that's mostly a bunch of samey jocks.
Plus he predates most "woe us me I am ugly" mutants.

>most
All of them really.

Cyclops, Jean, and Beast are the members that really moved onto success because those three have good personalities and discernible power sets. Yes, really. Cyclops did 'staid leader' better than most of those types out there and eventually got way more interesting breaking down from that, Jean has eternal girl = someone's waifu points and has been in some good stories here and there alongside the Phoenix Force being groundbreaking in the X-mythos, and Beast was always good as the amusing genius and for witty commentary, alongside Avenger status linking him and thus X-Men to the wider Marvel U. Same for powers - optic blasts have become surprisingly kino in power exploration and workability, telepathy and telekinesis is always a winning power set, and Beast should be and has been portrayed OP as hell with brains, agility, and brawn combined - but he's great for action scenes at least. Meanwhile the other two are... okay. Angel has a good personality but his powers FEEL painfully lacking even if I know better. Iceman always felt the same of all things, since the eventually-added Storm probably can whip up blizzards alongside all her other weather stuff and so he's redundant, and he's never been able to move past 'annoying manchild who could be something big someday' in personality.

It says a lot Cyke, Jean, and Beast are always in X-Men adaptions in other media from the get-go as charter members or added to the roster damn early on, while the other two are a lot more consistently rare or in the background. I'd say the true core X-Men, the A-list team members, are Cyclops, Jean, Beast, Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. Add in Iceman if you want someone else from the O5 for balance, or Kitty if you need waifu points/'viewpoint' character/want someone outside the O5 and groundbreaking, truly mythos-defining early-mid 80s team.

It's a shame they used Rogue for the typical Kitty role in X1, I understand the appeal of "she's a horny teenager who can't touch anyone" as an audience surrogate but they really didn't do anything interesting with her.

I can't being myself to like Jean because she ruins Cyclop's character
fuck Jean

Doom Patrol RIP-OFFS

No, everything before Giant Sized sucked and all the other characters other than Scott suck. Jean should have stayed dead and Beast should have stayed an avenger

Not as a group, they're better off split up and off doing their own things, interacting with later generations of X-Men or heroes outside of the X-Books

Fuck off. The DP creator left Marvel and modified ideas he heard bandied around there

Bingo. And I quite like Rogue.

Marvel's a LOT more hard to discern than DC in who is truly 'core/vital' to to its universe with a lot of ultimately B-list characters getting A-list material or adaptions, but rarely do they ever stay past their truly white-hot timeframe. X-Men is the absolute purest example of that, the whole 'B-listers get white-hot and amass big fanbases' stuff. But it is true. Gambit's famous, yes, and he's appeared in the Capcom games of the 90s - then what? What's been his really big stuff since the mid 00s? Rogue was the same, and she dropped like a rock in the films' prominence as last decade and this one. Arguably, even Kitty's been the same way, albeit she plays a lot bigger time in comics nowadays than I expected, maybe due to Bendis waifuing her as a kid.

Meanwhile look at how, say, Storm and Cyke and Jean and Beast are still prominent team members in the films since Movie 1 and Nightcrawler at least got X2 as the focal point and was pushed heavily in Apocalypse's marketing, helped by that he only wasn't featured in other movies solely because blue makeup was a bitch to put on. Colossus is still a mainstay in all X-games and just got a new lease in the movies with Deadpool. I'm sure someone can even make a case for Wolverine being A-List. Hell, all of these guys were big in all the various animated series as well, Evolution and Wolverine and the X-Men and the 80s pilot and 90s series and all that. They KEEP coming back and being used, over decades. Meanwhile the others you may see get big and beloved projects then never really get anything big again after a certain point. When's Dazzler been around since the 80s arcade game? Rogue's last major plot contribution to the films? Et Cetera.

Storm really isn't prominent in the new timeline, and Beast wasn't prominent in the old one.
Remember the permanent C-listers they used to round out the cast in First Class? That was weird.

Bitch, its well known that X-men came AFTER Doom Patrol. Pure rip-offs.

>The original five aren't bad characters at all, they just don't have any defining stories with them, that unify them as a group.
I think X-Factor did that.

Conceded in timeline and plot, admit I'm thinking in meta terms and general usage here.Fully agreed on the C-listers though. I don't know what was going on with that.

>because she ruins Cyclop's character
Please, Cyclops already ruined himself

I really don't think there's anything wrong with them, they all became staple characters in the franchise (with varying degrees of importance of course).
The original run was just unremarkable compared to other book of the same period but sume stuff was cool and many plot elements and characters from that era became prominent.

pre-fagging iceman is like the best
angel is okay but better as archangel
beast, jean, and cyc are boring and lame

>pre-fagging iceman is like the best
no he is not, he's the same. Which is boring.

>he's the same
Keep deluding yourself

Iceman hasn't had a consistent personality in the entire history of his existence. The most amount of character he ever got was as a goofball class clown type of guy, but most of the time he was just background noise, which is the role he's currently playing.

No and if Disney forces us to go through an O5 shitfest I'll be so pissed.

It's a shame they've fucked with Warren so much in the last few years. I really would like to see him promoted to leader of the X-Men (he more or less was during Casey and Austen's runs) and see what you can do with that. If the Morrison style status quo ever came back (fat chance) he'd be really good in that. I'd see him as the guy wanting to push mutants forward but in a more business/PR friendly manner akin to how other minority groups got accepted which could open up a whole world of stories for him and mutants.

But of course all of that requires something other than being stuck in the past and that sure as shit isn't happening with Jordan "everything past 1992 is trash" White running the line.

>But it is true. Gambit's famous, yes, and he's appeared in the Capcom games of the 90s - then what? What's been his really big stuff since the mid 00s?
Gambit's a case of Marvel not actually synergizing. He's popular with fans and normies/casuals love him too. But he's never been popular with the ultra-hardcore fans (the comic book nerd equivalent of smarks basically) and especially not with creators. There was like a 10 year period where he was basically separated from the X-Men, limited to guest spots, small or ancillary series. He gets included in the comics but it feels very grudgingly.

I remember about a decade ago I was working at a small amusement park and one of my co-workers was a (really nice looking) Dominican girl, definitely not the type of person you'd expect to read comics. But she loved the X-Men and she loved them because of Gambit and Rogue. Rogue's kind of in the same boat as Gambit, I think because of how tied together the two of them are.

They need a proper storyline or a 5 season series that focuses on thier characters and more of an update and not really a "retcon""

Give them the Teen Titans treatment.

Cyclops = Robin
Leader
His optic blast needs to do more, like he can control the intensity and make it an actual heat vision or Xray vision

Beast = Beast boy
Smarter and more mature version of course. No magic bullshit and back to hardcore science.

Jean = Raven
OP cosmic shenanigans
Raven/Trigon = Jean/Phoenix

Angel = Cyborg
He needs to be turned to Archangel right away, he is the techno organic guy controls computers and all that techy stuff
Think of Upgrade from Ben 10 but less like a liquid.

Iceman = Starfire.
The Spiderman of the group and the "Fun one", young straight and quips with a lot of omega level potential.

Jumping the shark would be adding a black girl permanet member, maybe Storm or Cipher, like Terra but less of a traitor

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I love that Cyclops outfit. That's the 2nd best Beast form. Also, can Iceman still change into that slush form?

>jocks
you need to get over high school

Too bad. I understand the now-eternal struggle of minority group vs superheroes-with-soap-opera-drama the X-Men lurch between, but Angel could be interesting doing that, certainly as a plot/arc driver. I'm surprised they have someone who is that hostile to the 90s though running things.

THAT explains a lot for how Gambit lost his chance to become truly 'core', because as a kid in the 90s becoming a 20-something in the 00s Gambit dropping out of the A-List was my first exposure to the concept of popularity and tier lists. And in fairness, he was in the right place at the right time with the right amount of cool for the height of X-Mania. Shame he got fucked over and accidentally dragged Rogue down with him.

Iceman likely could but it looks easier and cooler to draw him in the icy style we usually see him in.

Angel and Nightcrawler being leaders was one of the things I really enjoyed about that era of Uncanny. It was cool seeing Warren doing the whole rich diplomat shtick, and I thought Kurt’s character arc during that era was really interesting too with his whole crisis of faith thing. I actually didn’t think Draco was that bad; in fact there were several other things in Austen’s run that I had WAY more of a problem with than that. At least he managed to successfully write Kurt out of the priesthood so he could eventually get back to his old swashbuckle-y self.
Chamber is an awesome character too, although again I didn’t really like how Austen used him.

When did Hank become a super genius in the comics?

Beast is still my favorite X-men, I guess. Mostly cause of Avengers stuff though

Oh fuck off , you know what I mean, I wasn't being dismissive, but there's a lot of brawn and not much brain in the X-Men.

Pretty much every X-Men cartoon is better than Teen Titans

Love? No. There are few okay issues here and there but it's very obvious why it took Claremont to really make the concept work.

Was there ever a time he wasn't? He tried to cure himself very early on, granted he failed pathetically and it backfired into making him a monster, but that's basically the same as Bruce Banner.

>three of them have like this mythologic motif(Cyclops, Beast, Angel).
issue 9 has Lucifer in it

I wouldn't say love, more like respect

Also, the 60s X-Men era seems to be the most analyzed era of any comic book franchise for some reason. You don't see such a dissemination, dissection of Spider-Man, or FF, or Avengers. At least on Yea Forums

It's an interesting take on a comic that ultimately failed, then got a successful reboot and atmosphere whilst maintaining the core themes. All the others stayed popular and uncanceled and ultimately have a linear, direct progression due to that. Think of how the thirteen colonies became the both-different-yet-similar USA, or the Roman civilization ultimately reverting back to a monarchy in the Principate and Dominate - they're the same thing merely evolved on the one hand, yet evolved into something genuinely different with a sharp break in-between.

any links to these dissections?

holy shit, can't unthink it

lel

Thing is, when people discuss X-Men, they completely forget about Incredible Hulk that lasted 6 issues, Ant-Man that never really got a solo until decades later, and many many other failed marvel properties. X-Men seem unique because they debuted in X-Men #1, were brand new characters, and they got their comic book more or less untouched until it restarted as new #1 in 2011 (with the exception of some few month hiatuses). It wasn't a hit, but I feel that when something becomes really successfull, people tend to downsize the beginnings / roots. Like, with Nirvana. People think that their fame started with Nevermind and Smells Like Teen Spirit, while in fact, they already got notoriety after they did a pretty popular Love Buzz cover and their Bleach album, while not successful at all, and cheaply made, ultimately led them to sign with Giffen.

I wouldn't call them a failure, or ahead of the time, but rather an average title that suddenly clicked on many layers simultaneously with the readers overnight

One thing that really makes my brain jog is that if the comic was a failure, why keep it as a reprint title? Why not just cancel it altogether? Especially that at the very same time, marvel tried to promote inhumans (yup), but couldn't, because they were distributed by DC, and had a limit on how many titles they could publish a month.

THIS. The Roy Thomas stuff reads as good as any of his team books from back in the day. The problem was the early Lee stuff was so generic and shitty that no one cared by the time it rolled around. The book really picks up steam in the #30's close to their big costume change.

>he doesn't know how lead time works

Not that user but I have #1-10 in the ons Masterworks HC. I'm good with it as a look at the older stuff and the better aspects and mainly the Kirby art

Another thing that is really crazy, is how many times the pre-Claremont era was reprinted and revisited. Beside the reprint era of 67-93 issues, O5 X-Men got their own reprint feature in Amazing Adventures v3, Early Years, Classic X-Men (VOLUME 1, not V2), Marvel Super-Heroes, Marvel Tales, and probably more that I forgot. Another thing, the O5 returned as X-Factor, in Hidden Years, First Class, Season one, and etc. not to mention bringing the first team from the past. I mean, I don't think even Yellow Daredevil got so much spotlight and love, despite also having a certain cult following.

Most of Lee stuff WAS generic. The only reason that FF was great was because of Kirby, and Spider-Man was great was because of Ditko. Also, if we talk about 60s Marvel, we only talk about 3 comic books:
1) Spider-Man
2) FF
3) Thor
In that order. Everything else from marvel sold very meh, and they had financial problems at the end of the 60s

I think it was a bait. The concept behind the X-Men predates both X-Men and DP by at least 10 years

Oh yeah isn't it called "Children of the Atom" if memory serves?

Yup. Glad to see that someone still remembers.
But marvel itself toyed with the idea. Maybe I should do some storytime here of X-Men stories before the X-Men? The first canon X-Men story is in Amazing Adult Fantast #14 (#15 features the debut of the Spider-Man b t w)

Yeah do it.
'm still a fan of the early stuff tho not to the extent of Spidey, Shield, FF or Thor btw, but I can admit that the Lee stuff was middling. The Kirby art was still good tho

There is dated, there is archaic, and there is Lee. I appreciate what he did for the comic book medium, but his dialogues themselves didn't age well, and well, plotting was mostly artists.

Before the proper storytime, I'll start with something extra, though, but have to look for it for a moment

So... have this article that I am 100% certain inspired Kirby (as he loved such stuff), from Mechanix Illustrated, written by no one else but... Otto Binder

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And Kurt Schaffenberger, oy.

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oy indeed

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I wish the time reduction between posting images was back on Yea Forums.

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That's fair. I tend to jump around a lot. I've read before (and DD Annual #1 references it) about the Marvel Method and how much artists actually did in terms of plot, so I appreciate that for the Silver Age stuff I like, Kirby, Ditko etc were basically in charge of 90% of what made them good. So I agree with ya for the most part

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Let's start with the promised canon X-Men stories before X-Men #1 that were also collected in numerous omnibuses and TPB
1/12

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2/12

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3/12

still, it's weird that marvel not only wasn't sued for basically plagiarizing Children of the Atom, but also managed to use that phrase to describe the X-Men themselves.

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bendis unironically ruined them

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yeah, and Alonso helped. we shouldn't underestimate Alonso's hateboner

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And now, for some muties from Strange Tales
2 stories, canon of course

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alonso was such a terrible EiC, i'll never understand, he was a good regular editor

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he usually had some very good help that stayed in the shadows. on his own, he was very often clueless

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IMO the book really kicks into gear once Havok (and Lorna) come in. It takes Claremont a little bit to catch back up to that and Giant-Size and the Nefaria arc are way worse.

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tales of suspense muties!

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that's it for now. I can post more, but maybe later

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Has Alonso ever stated his opinion on the X-men?

It's interesting that they knew Bobby was gay since issue #1.

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Yes, when he was an editor of X-statix, he said that he never liked them, nor read them, and wore it as a badge of honor (back then it was cool to hate on x-men). Overall, he always had a certain type of disdain for them, as he was the "vertigo" guy, even if he liked the avengers, which is flabbergasting to be honest

>this meme again

thank you for the story time user it was great

it's interesting that there was another Lucius Farnsworth in Strange Tales #94. in this story Farnsworth is attacked by a mutated radioactive weed with psychic abilities. since i love fan theories i always think in my head canon the weed gave Farnsworth mutant abilities for his appearance in Tales of Suspense #32.

forgot what issue of the Kirby Collector it was but it stated that Kirby didn't intend for Daniel Damian to be the same scientist who finds the Kree Sentry in issue #64 but fans lump the two together which is great.

another example maybe who guys can help me because i've always wanted to have a chronological timeline of the Marvel comic universe, is that Doctor Strange's origin issue took place before Fascistic Four #1 and since Byrne did X-Men Hidden Years he also attached Alpha Fight's origin around the first issue of the Fantastic Four. Just food for thought and discussion.

well well, you can always count on Byrne

there are much much more mutants in the 50s horror stories, maybe someone someday should do a TPB collecting these types of stories

can't stand him as a person but i used to think he was the best at bringing up some obscure fact in some old comic before Moore came along. he did a lot of this especially during his FF run but i always disagree how he made Nathanial Richards Kang when it should have been Doom. And with Mark Greenwald they changed Kirby's origin for Galactus as told in Thor from somebody who escaped a planet plagued by a virus and flew to close to the largest sun in the universe into somebody who is escaping a dying universe and flew straight into what is expected to be the birth of Eternity.

marathon.bungie.org/story/Origin_of_Galactus_comparison.html

>Fascistic Four #1

I actually like Stan Lee's dialogue because of how tongue in cheek it is

Great tier:
Cyclops
Good tier:
Beast
Decent tier:
Angel
Bad tier:
Iceman
Absolute trash tier:
Jean

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Romita's ASM is better than Ditko's IMO and it's also where the book really started taking off. And I think it's unfair to say that Lee dragged things down. He obviously had ideas and brought a more humanizing element while the more Ditko did the more Peter turned into a dick battling industrialists and mobsters.

Lee was a creative manager. That's it.

>can't stand him as a person
Why is that? Other than his opinion on how comics should be he doesn't seem that bad