Now that the dust has settled, is this still good?

It's like The Sopranos or Seinfeld in that way.

To a point. Watchmen is still superior to most comics today because it does decompressed storytelling (with a 9-panel grid), but crams so much information in a single issue that it never feels like your time was wasted.

>Could have done without the pirate story.

Ohh boy.

This is what they mean when they say you have to read it a few times to get it.

>The pirate story isn't even in all the versions, so someone has admitted that it isn't necessary.

No, it weighs down the pace in a fucking movie. But it is integral to the story.

Is it just me, or does the Freighter story mirror not only Ozy, but Manhattan, Rorschach, Comedian and a little bit of Night Owl II?

>integral to the story
No it's not. It's a cute and poetic parallel, but the story works perfectly fine either way

Idk call me a 30 year old boomer buy I still legit laugh out loud with some Seinfelds. It's classier and less desperate and broad than most "equivalent" sitcoms today

I'm with you. Seinfeld is and always will be a classic. It's my second favorite sitcom, behind Frasier, but "Seinfeld isn't funny" is a trope for a reason.

One of the few true masterpieces of DC's mediocre editorial history.

OP here, I still love Seinfeld (but I’m close to 30 so take that with a grain of salt)

I understand perfectly, but the parallels, though subtles and neat, become tiresome after a while. It’s also a very desperate story: why could’t the main character go back to his family? Why was salvation not even a considered option? He says he did what he did out of love. What a grim resolution to say that «love always leads to pain and murder» is! I know it reflects Ozzy’s path, I know in a way it also reflects Rorschach’s black-and-white vision of the world, and so on. Doesn’t make it magnificent

In a way, Watchmen felt like a really clever, smart craft. But it amounts to nothing but «all those subleties, all those characterizations, must end in a moquery of humanity».
In a way, the only glimmer of hope are SS 2 and NO 2. Even the old Silk Specter’s final apparition is really dim (she’s alone with her demons)

For me it was just Ozy, but you may have a point, I'll have to read it again.

It works better with it.

>It’s also a very desperate story: why could’t the main character go back to his family?

Because it's a horror story. It's a nightmare.

It's like asking "Why couldn't the USA and the Soviet Union just live in peace?"

It's good and entry-level, which helps it. It's the kind of thing that you can read with nothing but surface-level knowledge of the superhero genre but works slightly better if you do know about them.
Really, Watchmen's greatest strengths (which are why it keeps selling millions) are
>It's entry level. You don't need to know anything to get into it
>It has good meta commentary for people who do, but that's not essential
>The art's great
That's about all you need for a 12-issue series to age well. I agree about TotBF. It's good on a first read, but kinda redundant since all of its subtext's present in various contexts throughout the comic. All in all, I'd rather re-read a Marvel run or something, but it's a good "hey, I have time to blast thru 12 issues, why not?" comic.

>Why couldn't the USA and the Soviet Union just live in peace?
Because the USSR was a dictature, with close to 40million people killed in sheer agony by its very government in the 50’s, and that making peace with the USA would bring an end to the power of the people, namely Stalin, who had no issue so far to genocide entire populations to keep said power?

Whereas the pirate could AT LEAST had looked at his options, and we could have had a reflection on salavation and love.
Here it’s not even a possibility.
Sure, I understand it’s an artistic choice, but that’s what I’m saying: Watchmen is a beautiful art piece but undermined by its choice to focus solely on the darkness of human beings

thank goodness Moore didn't listen to people like you because you're dumb

Apart from calling me names, have you got an argument?

Like the sailor in the story, far as I saw, Rorschach, Comedian and Manhattan became wrapped in a delusion that was the product of a real event. Night Owl II tried to force the delusion onto himself, but couldn't keep the act up forever because he loved being a mask to help people, not to tender a painful wound. Manhattan and NO break the delusion and realize there was no impendimg attack by a freighter. Comedian and Rorschach have the delusion shattered by Ozy and both die as a (thematic) consequence. In the end, Ozymandias is closest to being the sailor, as his delusion is broken by his own actions (as he has doubts in the end).

>decompressed storytelling (with a 9-panel grid), but crams so much information in a single issue that it never feels like your time was wasted.
Thats a nice wording. Describes it really well why no issue feels empty.

Does it really mirror ozy? I always see this as a take on humans nature which can be translated to all characters. Not specific mirroring certain characters.

Stalin. Who died 32 years before 'Watchmen'.

And it didn't focus just on the darkness.
Rorschach grew to the point where he could tell David he was his friend, not just his ally.
Where he could, well, forgive his mother, in a sense.

David and Laurie making love out of uniform. Doctor Manhattan finally leaving the last remnants of his mortal life behind. Earth being free from the looming shadow of his presence, which exacerbated the Cold War.

Sally still loved Edward, suggesting she saw something in him nobody else could see - perhaps that part, deep inside of him, which could not look at EVERY atrocity and laugh - the part that, when faced with the barren totality of the absolute choice Adrian took could not see the humor in it, although it absolutely was a brilliant joke, the ultimate prank on humanity, but cried - wept tears for humanity, which had done the same he always had: laugh in the face of oncoming doom instead of trying to stop it.

Adrian wouldn't have it. He would not tolerate or forgive flippancy. The squid wasn't just salvation, it was also judgment and punishment.
That, to me, makes the pirate ship important: Adrian is not an inhuman super-judge, he is a man who did a terrible thing and it will haunt him for the rest of his days.

It's not just about darkness.

>Does it really mirror ozy?

I didn't catch this until the fourth time I read it. I had always been puzzled at the pirate story until I was like "Whooohhh, what?"

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The Black Freighter is literally the only good part about Watcmen

Maybe, have to reread it with ozzy in mind.

I know about Stalin, I was just answering the moot question about «why USSR and the US couldn’t possibly become friends overnight» of the over user.

As for all your points, I enjoy them and thank you for having highlighted them.
Especially about Sally’s viewpoint of Blake. It was a poetic way to phrase it.

As for Adrian, I believe it’s actually though a dark, dark vision of humanity in the last chapter.
Not only did he sell his own soul for a possible salvation of the earth, but it may very well not be useful thanks to Rorschach’s journal.
Also, his dream of being superior to Alexander the Great will soon be shattered nonetheless. 10 or 20 years from 1985, humanity will just end up saying «hey, they ain’t no more squid attack, let’s go conquer some south american nation not yet under Russian/American influence». It’s what Dr. Manhattan meant by «nothing ever ends»: until we «end» our common history by an all-loving state of mind, we will always have to battle evil and wars.

That’s why I, as a Christian, absolutely love Morrison’s vision, even though he is absolutely not a believer: he, contrary to Moore, envisions a possibility for humanity to transcends itself into an embodiment of love, or at least learns (through God or otherwise) to enter another, more peaceful, dimension of reality.

Moore is more like «yep, it sucks, deal with it». Which ends up being Owl and Specter’s final posture.

There's been so many Watchmen collections throughout the years, what would be the best and definitive way of experiencing and owning the story right now?

I like it in context of the comic, but the black freighter as a comic that stands by itself, it's real bad. Just one guy monologuing to himself

I didn't mean 'overnight' I meant 'at all'.

"why could’t the main character go back to his family?" was what I was responding to. Something that seems obvious, but apparently is not.

I don't think Moore had no hope. After all, we still exist, we haven't destroyed ourselves just yet; it was Manhattan's presence that caused the situation to spin out of control.
Moore has a pretty outspoken opinion on superheroes, which he expressed in 'Miracle Man' already: either they change the world into Utopia or into Hell. A status quo like the one we're in is unthinkable.

Remember that Ozy's dream was written by Max Shea, the writer he employed to create the psychic squid broadcast - and then murdered. Further the story is being read by the black kid at ground zero for the mass murder

I doubt you read either too many 20th century novels or graphic comics then

No, it influenced the comic book industry for twenty five years and it's iron grip only hurt the industry by making it all edgy shit. And it looks like after a few years of the grip loosening, now it's back and squeezing as hard as ever.

>graphic comics
As opposed to prose comics?

>The pirate story isn't even in all the versions, so someone has admitted that it isn't necessary
Imagine being the kind of fag who only watched the movie

Dumb capeshitter.

Doomsday Clock Deluxe Edition

It's a psychological journey. It's very interesting if you ask me

>not an absolute
pleb
What's next? A manga sized 5 volume edition with no covers?

If there was a god he'd strike johns down before he finished that travesty.

Overrated for a reason. It's fucking good

There is no God because all the goodwill Johns has done with Rebirth has already been thrown out. All we can hope for is Manhattan to reality warp everything back when Doomsday Clock finishes.

It's funny and weird and stupid and brilliant in all the best ways.

at the rate the comic is going, he might

Yes, but mostly for its immaculate composition and richness in detail.

>US DINDU NUFFIN
pffft. Both were retarded greedy empires who wanted to rule the world.

What an unamerican post.

Absolutely true, but at least America didn’t try to do it by murdering 80+ millions of its own citizens ans crushing the survivors under the boot of absolute despair and tyranny.

Loved your answer. I don’t think the pirate story’s vision could have spared a look at possible redemption, but your post makes me understand also that Moore’s point is to say our world would’t be possible with superpowers in it. I disagree with him, wholeheartedly, but it makes sense.

Now that the dust has settled
What was your favorite episode?

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Night of the Spriggan Deep was pretty good. That femsprig was hot as hell. Too bad she only got one other appesrance.

Really? I never saw the appeal, I guess I was a bit basic in liking the Silver Specter

>I personally found the overall pace was lacking and that the grim-and-gritty was a tad forced. Could have done without the pirate story. Most pieces at the end of each chapters were retread of the comics or uninspired.
How can someone's reading capabilities actually get more elementary with time instead of improving?

>thinking world domination is thinkable and possible
Go back to /pol ya cunt

>Absolutely true, but at least America didn’t try to do it by murdering 80+ millions of its own citizens ans crushing the survivors under the boot of absolute despair and tyranny.

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"the court of midnight". but i've always been a sucker for harlem globetrotters crossovers desu

No, Geoff Johns exposed Moore for the back he is.

I'd suggest giving the motion comic a watch if you haven't already. It's up on YouTube completely. I noticed some of the Mooreisms *cute/clever juxtapositions* I'd never thought about while reading the comic.

Silver Spectre was pkay, but she really didn't work as Silk Spectre's apprentice. I'll bet you anything she was made as someone's ego project.

it's exactly the movie except the movie's better because it replaces the really really stupid part with a nuke

and some of the art hasn't really aged well, like ozymandias looks oddly gay

>Ozy's dream was written by Max Shea

Daaaamn. I was not aware of that until right now.

I should have picked up on that.

'Watchmen vs. ....Watchmen?' will always be my favorite.
But then, I am a footfag.

>liking the Silver Specter

Pleb.

I hope to god this is a joke post.

Don't worry, Glycon has you covered.

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maybe an alien suddenly plopped down in the middle of your brain

that would be stupid, wouldn't it?

>This is the mind of a Snyder fan

I rewatched it after reading the comic, I HATED it. Snyder’s vision makes Moore’s words seem childish and stupid.

That’s a low blow. I have 10 years of reading comics behind me now. I can judge Watchmen on a different light and with a better historical concept. I wasn’t blown away nor impressed.

Maybe you'll need to re-read it after 20? I just can't see how instead of appreciating all the details and specific use of the medium, you deem all that stuff as unnecessary.
I could understand not liking the comic, but thinking that the pirate stuff was unnecessary and that the gritty stuff was forced makes me feel that you really didn't get it.
What would you say the comic is about, and why would you say those things shouldn't be there?

You are a worm.

Maybe you'll need to re-read it after 20? I just can't see how instead of appreciating all the details and specific use of the medium, you deem all that stuff as unnecessary.
I could understand not liking the comic, but thinking that the pirate stuff was unnecessary and that the gritty stuff was forced makes me feel that you really didn't get it.
What would you say the comic is about, and why would you say those things shouldn't be there?

Oops, sorry for double post.

if you consider when was released and how groundbreaking it was and still is,yes is amazing

if you judge only the history and the characters,is ok
current heroes in crisis is way better

I watched the movie first and then read the comic. For some reason I was expecting there to be more fun Minutemen adventures, but there wasn't. It was just more darkness and shit sliding down hill because SuperManhatten couldnt do shit even though he could see the future.

From a visual and writing perspective it's still one of the most tightly planned comics to exist. I've read it at least 8 times over the years and I still find a nice little detail that I never noticed before. As far as comics goes, it's probably my favorite to re-read since it's so densely packed with details but with only 12 issues I can easily read it in one sitting. The only people who say it isn't good are Yea Forumsntrarians looking for (You)s.

What are you judging in a different light? A "GRIM GRITTY = BAD" light? It's a very serious story with a very serious tone.

Watchmen meet the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was really cool

It's not a graphic novel.

>The pirate story isn't even in all the versions

Without a doubt, this is the most casual post ever posted on Yea Forums

Forgot the episode but the one where Dr Manhatten had to clone hinself to hang out with each member at the same time while babysitting was a good one.

Any episode with a villain other than the Moloch. It becomes quite tedious watching him escape week after week. At least the Reds got straight up deported.

No, I understand and admire perfectly the tightly planned and executed storyline, all the details, the different subtexts as well as the many subtle messages and characterizations. It’s a masterpiece of technics, an absolute prowess.
But it’s quite a rather cold one. And I didn’t feel that way before, but I do now.
Pirate stuff isn’t unnecessary, I badly expressed myself. It’s just more technicity, more advanced prowess. But it doesn’t transcend a message of darkness into something more, it drives the point in a more detailed way. It’s all.

The comic is too much like said. Yes it’s serious but it loses itself in its darkness, or at least, to better word it, it doesn’t «feed» me enough.
Grim and gritty excellently put, but without a message I can carry with me along my life. THAT’s the predicament I’m trying to convey.

The comic is about this maelstrom of lifes entangled in the fear of war, in the feeling of being impotent, of the drastic means somewhat necessary to «not escape from the world», as the psychiatrist put it. It’s a murder mistery with many slices of life interspaces between each other, proposing the social and political landscape of the paranoia of an epoch. It’s both a salvation and a damnation story.

Actually, it's not just that. A lot of it is an indictment in how the market and the fans were pushing superheroes to take the place of adult fiction, when they're essentialy juvenile fiction. By placing such characters in a context of complexity akin to that of the adult reality, the characters show how ill apropriate and disfunctional they become in such context. That's why even supergenius Ozymandias can't escape the trappings of his superhero-molded mind and his masterplan for bringing people together is the same idea that is constantly used in comics to bring people together (it's even a straight up reference to Starro), and it's shown as a failure that doesn't really fix the underlying issues but might even make them worse.
It's basically a call to comic book readers to grow up and face the world. But we now know how all that ended up.

youtu.be/mLdqKIj3-A0

I ment the rubbery animated version of the whole Watchmen comic, not the animated Tales of the Black Freighter.

I don't like that it's just one person narrating and doing the voices, but I greatly enjoy the soundtrack.

I used to think this is the best comic ever made when I was younger. Now over 20s and I realize this is Edgy af.

This. It's mostly about showcasing what comics can do coupled with an interesting character study that makes it so easy for normies to enjoy. Because really, other stuff like plot don't have anything going for it

Good, quite good. Not Moore's best work though, that would be Promethea.

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I'm still pissed there was only ONE episode where Manhattan turns into a car like in the intro.

You're arguing this on a board that widely proclaimed Forever Evil to also be a graphic novel. It's not worth your time.