Batman #66 Storytime

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Get back to the fucking Bane cabal, Tom. Get back to it. Nobody wants to see you try to be Grant Morrison.

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Is this still a dream/hallucination/nightmare?

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if you think about it, Grant is so dumb that every franchise he writes is forever retarded after he redoes the origins and makes everything meta

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Thanks for the storytime, Norrin. I like the art at least.

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Doomsday Clock:

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>BATMAN CANT BE BATMAN AND MARRIED TO CATWOMAN
Ok?...Who fucking cares? Fine, DC and King, you want Batman single and not married forever. Fine. Ok. I’ve accepted that. By all means. But why are you dragging this shit out?

Why should anyone even care about Catwoman after she left Bruce at the alter and betrayed him for Bane?

This isn’t even the same Selina, just a dumb dream made by Bruce. None of this is useful or interesting.

Just move on already!

You can't fucking pull this "they're gods but he's just a normal man" after we had stories upon stories were Bruce pulls insane godly shit or is shown to be able to take down the Justice League by himself.

>>BATMAN CANT BE BATMAN AND MARRIED TO CATWOMAN
Doesn't the issue indicate the opposite is true when she says she lied

Damn it King, we know this already.

It doesn’t matter because Didio has admitted that’s Batman getting married would be “the final chapter and end for the character”. Even if she does admit she loves him, they won’t get married. At most Batman and Catwoman just back to making whoopie on rooftops aka what they were doing before.

Too fucking bad! We got two more issues of this Knightmare arc and a Catwoman Bachelorette Party!

Remember when Batman used to fight crime?

Why have Batman fight crime when he can fight his emotions!!

This dream sucks. It doesn't even have sharks or Zorro stabbing Alfred.

>So why can't he be happy and be batman
If king were to actually read Morrison's run rather than trying to ape it he'd know

I don't even particularly like Morrison's Batman, but this desperate attempt by King to do that in this arc makes me appreciate Morrison's stuff a little.

Just fucking get back to what you were doing before, Tom. FFS, it's Batman, You had a few good arcs. Get back to that. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Batman. Fights crime.

Yes.

>King will stay in Batman til #105
That’s the real nightmare right there.

Remember when Batman married Catwoman and was still Batman for decades in the old continuity and even had a daughter that grew up? So much for King's "everything is canon".

Actually, no. Both Batman and Catwoman retired before getting together. Catwoman specially had done jail time and acted as a hero for years beforehand. After the marriage Bruce became commissioner of the Gotham police. Even then everything ended in tragedy because an old henchman of Catwoman blackmailed her to doing a robbery for him and then killed her. So Bruce became a widower raising their daughter alone and said daughter once grown up became a vigilante to avenge her mother.

I don’t get why get why being married is so taboo for DC (or Marvel). It ain’t like being married prevents Batman from punching criminals (especially if he is married to another superhero).

And even then, if they can’t be married then fine, just move on. Have Batman fight crime. This whole BatCatBatCat WillThey/WontThey relationship’s been dragged and beaten for a year.

Who even cares about Catwoman? She's a boring character who only ever had sex appeal going for it and her existence is constantly bringing Batman down as a character to excuse this dumb pairing that never goes anywhere.

She also left Bruce at the alter and helped Bane. Kinda hard to be on her side of things or care about care about any romance with her and Bruce.

>Question appearing in both Doomsday Clock and Batman on the same day

Quality of the issues aside, it feels good lads

She's constantly betraying Batman's trust and then complaining about Batman distrusting her when she's once again trying to get close to him. This isn't the first time. It's the same shit as always.

Wasn’t he also in Action Comics?

He was a few issues ago, not up to date so I don't know if Bendis is doing anything more with him

I think he was just a cameo.

I really liked this
Okay.
I lied.

-39 user then we get Bendis

considering how long it takes king to write batman, it will be three years before it’s over.

I like this page just for the last panel.

Hating Catwoman as a character because Tom King writes her shittily is retarded. Tom King writes everyone shitty. There are good Catwoman comics written by Not Tom King and you should read them.

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The only good Catwoman comic was written by Brubaker, and even then it was just okay. The art was the best thing. The best thing about it was also that it had minimal BatCat romance. I prefer her much more with a character like Slam Bradley.

Regardless, it’s kinda hard to give a shit about King’s BATCAT romance currently going on.

Maybe if someone else was writing like you said then I could care. Heck, Nick Spencer managed to do a good job repairing Mary Jane and Black Cat after the Damage Slott did. So anything is possible.

The romance with Slam Bradley was by far the worst aspect of that run.

Still better than BatCat nonsense.

Get better taste.

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Who does he refer to with his friends captured by his enemy?

Who does he refer to with his friends captured by his enemy?

You're misinterpretting it. He's the one who was captured, not his friends.

The worst part of this is that she was okay with a 13 year old girl selling her body as a whore.
I don't care that she is a fucking whore but enabling child prostitution is fucked up.

This "batman is just a guy" shit is really starting to piss me off.

Tom King hates Batman.You should been aware of that by now.

Man it's either
>Batgod, master of all martial arts can beat anyone with enough preptime
Or
>just a guy

Batman is just a guy. The problem is King is just spinning his wheels for 105 issues straight. All that set up for Gotham girl only for another writer to use it in a crossover

>Henri Ducard: If you make yourself more than just a man. If you devote yourself to an ideal. You'll become something else entirely.
>Batman/Bruce Wayne: Which is?
>Henri Ducard: A legend, Mr. Wayne. A legend
You know, it's kinda fucked up when a director who never read much comics have a better understanding and appreciation for a character than the publisher itself and the comic writers.

How does King manage to type this stuff with Batman's balls lodged in his larynx?

youtube.com/watch?v=9J6J5BcHFCs

No bullshit about Bruce Wayne being mentally ill, no bullshit about Batman being problematic for Gotham. No. Just Bruce being very logical about what he's trying to attempt and Batman being an inspiration for all the good people of Gotham.

A good letterer would have left the words with no background.

This is worse than anime filler. But! If you think of it as exclusively filler, then it's better than it has a right to be. I mean, it features plenty of fan service characters like Constantine a few issues back and my boy Q here. He ever gets their characterization somewhat right. If anything their signature quips like
's still shite

Usually it's both.

>But why are you dragging this shit out?
He's getting paid for it.

This whole bullshit that Bruce can't be Batman and be happily in love just devalue both Bruce and Batman. It make it seem Bruce only does this because he's miserable and have nothing else better to do, because if he otherwise had something going for his life he wouldn't be doing this anymore. Is that how King view Batman?
It also makes Catwoman look full of herself. So Bruce being with her with be in so much bliss he wouldn't have the will to separate himself from her for a few hour to put on the suit and go save people? Bitch, come on.

Batman have dated before many times, seriously too, because everything he does is a 100%, and despite being happy with whatever relationship he was going through at the moment he still put on a suit and fought crime. Usually the ones that can't cope with the situation of dating a guy with a busy schedule who live a dangerous life are the women, not Batman.

Yeah. The usual drama is that the women don't want to share Bruce with Gotham or are then tortured/killed off by some villain and skip town in fright/die.

user King's Batman became batman because he was a suicidal cutter that "killed" himself and became the Bat.

E-2 Batman did wear the costume a couple of times, although it was mostly for JLA/JSA stories and before Huntress' introduction, when they actually detailed his later life.

Still, chronologically those stories must take place after his official retirement.

Naruto actually pulled months of dream world bullshit filler, but at least there they had an excuse since they needed to add filler in the middle of a really long war arc that obviously couldn't be broken up with a random event. Here, this "filler" comes from the main writer themselves just to extend their run and hit key issue numbers.

The problem is he isn’t reinventing the wheel. This whole issue is “Dark!Grim!Depressed!WoeisMe!” Batman “introspection” that we’ve always had

>No bullshit about Bruce Wayne being mentally ill, no bullshit about Batman being problematic for Gotham.

Why is it bullshit?

Lmao the whitewashing Damian cries really got to em

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Because comic writers treat Bruce decision to become Batman as an irrational thing that only a mentally ill person would do, this in a setting full of other grown men and women dressed up in colorful costumes and bizarre masks that punch people for a living. And i'm tired of the idea that Batman created all the crazy villains of Gotham or that his continued fight with them make the villains more crazy and dangerous by the day.

DC editorial: Do you have the script for issue 66?
King: I wrote a note read it.
DCE:. We did is nonsense.
King:Note.
DCE: You keep repeating it.
King:. I wrote a note did you read it?

This final line - I'm so pumped for the next several issues.

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I like King writing Question way better than writing Batman. His repetitive autistic dialogue and desperate need to ape Morrison would go over better there.

I also love seeing Question interact with other DC characters, and him being frustrated by Cat is funny.

>Cat
Stop with this shit. Don't encourage King.

This scene - holy cats.

This filler is so that you can finally have Batman process all the stuff he refuses to say when he's awake and in control. Is a dream sequence the easy way to do that? Yes. But I think that using these issues to really process the fallout of the destroyed wedding is really good.

So, Silver Age fan?

Please be trolling. Everything these three issues managed to do could have easily done in one. King's obfuscating everything so he can drag it out to pad out his run and the issues he managed to produce doesn't even have anything interesting to show for. John Constantine and the Question spewing random stuffs doesn't do anything. Is meaningless guest-appearances that have no bearings on anything. They're there with no rhyme or reason.

I mean, everything we learned from this issue is the Question making Catwoman confess that she still love Batman, something we already knew. The previous issue was Constantine telling Bruce he was stuck in a dream and in captivity in the real world, something we already knew.

Just a Batman fan tired of this stupid characterization and specially King own particular take on it.

That's dull. For Real. Period. Full Stop.

Not more duller than this.

>three
Oh user. Also, and I can't believe you're making me defend this piece of shit, just because we know it doesn't mean the characters know

Not trolling. This is very much a bunch of emotional setpieces, rather than plot. Could you just have Batman say "I'm very sad that Catwoman won't marry me because she thinks I'm too obsessed." Sure. But that's not very interesting.

Last issue what we found out was that Batman is on a machine with Scarecrow gas. Sure. But we also got to see the honeymoon and beginning of married life, and Batman struggles with the question if happiness is worth it when everyone dies.

Not new, certainly, but it's something people think and feel about intesely.

You could have done all of that within three 5 pages and it would have been probably more effective that way.

The problem is that the issues are retreating old ground and we didn't really need so much issues to go over at it again. Specially in a drawn out dream sequence that does more to obfuscate the messages than anything else.

I don't understand what "three 5 pages" means. If you're saying that it could have been shorter, I agree. But we would have missed the emotions that were created.

>two issues featuring the Question in one day
>they're both garbage
BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK

The dream sequence isn't obfuscating anything. it's clear that Batman is processing losing Catwoman, and he's realizing that something isn't right about the whole situation.

Typo. Sorry. I meant 5 pages or something.
Disagree. I actually think that by dragging things out this much you dilute whatever emotions you 're aiming to create for the reader's benefit. Things are come out better when it's short and sweet. It's the difference between a hushed and whispered "because i love you" dragged out from a man that rarely is open with his feelings, and a full on speech about love that never ends from a man that is always laying his feelings bare for anyone.

A single one-shot would have left a lot more people talking about its packed content than a drawn-out arc that goes on and on about its messages and that people can't wait for it to end.

It's obfuscating the entire process with a meaningless dream-sequence filled with guest-appearances that makes no sense and genre shit that feels like writer's indulgence.

Well, I'm enjoying these Knightmares (except for the first one - the whole "Master Bruce" thing is super boring) for the art and the naval gazing. Partly because I've been frustrated that Batman has refused to naval gaze nearly enough - he's just been reacting, and now, because he's captured and asleep with drugs, he's actually thinking through the problems.

I've already laid out the meaning.

The guest appearances are a bit random, sometimes - likely chosen because the artist wanted to do them - but they're fun!

If you don't like self-indulgent genre stuff, why are you reading Batman? When was the last non-self-indulgent genre story that you read from Batman?

not everyone finds clapping at the thing you recognize "fun"

>Partly because I've been frustrated that Batman has refused to naval gaze nearly enough
The entire run has been nothing but Batman naval gazing about his sad pathetic life instead of doing shit.
I fucking know the meaning. King isn't that subtle. This issue is pretty much Bruce using Question as a suit and attempting to force Catwoman to come forward with the real reason why she left him, and not willing to accept the previous reason she gave. As well rebuking at the idea that he wouldn't be able to be married with her and be Batman at the same time. Even then it's still King obfuscating the fucking point with stupid Question random guest-appearance and noir style scenario/writing.

>yet another Year One reference

DC really needs to come out and declare if Synders Year Zero is canon or not. Both Bat books are now saying it basically didn't happen.

Actually, I think it's the opposite. Batman CAN be Batman and married to Catwoman.

The problem is that Batman has convinced himself that he needs to be isolated and miserable to effectively help Gotham. Because of his isolation and misery, Batman has become broken and can't save anyone.

If we were dealing with a competent writer, Batman would have realized that he needs to stop isolating himself and try to reconnect with his allies but we're dealing with King who has a trauma fetish.

King references have no bearing outside of BatCat bullshit.
Tom King is essentially using the past comics - most of it not canon anymore - in leu of actually building the BatCat relationship from the ground up. He just have to make small references to these comics and say: "see, it has always been there!".
Also, by doing that he can hype the romance in his run by trying to pass on the idea that BatCat is this monumental love story that have been in the making since Batman's origins. Again so he doesn't have to put any effort himself into it. He just have to tell it's great.

The whole Catwoman remembering Year One first meeting and Batman remembering the original first meeting is also mostly to show that Catwoman is "gritty" girl and would rather remember the man, and Batman is "pulpy" or whatever and would rather remember the masks.

That's essentially Grant Morrison's run and Morrison got to the point in the first fucking few pages.

Except that Morrison ripped it all to shreds in his finale. Kinda makes "the point" a bit unpointed.

Dude was fucking bitter about the reboot, though.

It also should be noted that Morrison simply rehashed Batman's arc in IC, to the point where Morrison's Batman was actually OOC compared to how Batman was acting in every other appearance.

Doesn't mean he should take it out on the readers.

I'm not a Morrison fan, but I thought his whole Batman Reborn/Inc status quo was genius. But his conclusion was "yeah, Bruce is a failure, everyone he loves dies, it all sucks." Makes all the brilliance feel completely useless.

They might be going with the "both happened concurrently" idea. (Which is REALLY difficult/impossible to due with things as written.

Legends of the Dark Knight had a lot of this during its first several arcs.

Yeah. That pissed me off too for the longest time. Infinite Crisis was Batman at his breaking point. He'd been plagued by paranoia not being able to trust anyone and seeing everyone as a potential enemy. He'd driven away all his family and friends. Alexander Luthor Jr. had preyed on his weakness and used him to bringing the world to its knees. Batman got so out of controle that he was going to shoot Alexander with a handgun. Straight up kill him. Wonder Woman stopped him.
Then in the weekly 52 series we saw Bruce taking a year of leave together with Wonder Woman go to his roots and rebuild himself. Better this time. He redid all his training. Then he came back a better man who was able to reconnect again with his family and friends.

Grant Morrison run started and out of nowhere we're back to pre-IC/52 Batman for the first issue with him talking every time in Batman's voice and being erratic to the point of Tim being worried about his mental state.

This might work if Doomsday Clock ends up being another Zero Hour. (Soft reboot to clean up timeline issues)

The secret plan: Doomsday Clock will be delayed until King finishes up his Batman run so that they can reboot everything!

Grant Morrison run with that finale pretty much wanted to say, through Betty Kane, that Batman will never be allowed be able to grow grasping his true potential and affecting the world around him in a meaningful way, that he will always be stuck in that known and long played out status quo doing the same introspection and fighting the same fight of always, and that he should make peace with it. That's why she killed Talia al Ghul in his place. Because he'd never be able to. Same with her Spyral group dealing with the Leviathan in his place. Because he'd never be able to.

Morrison was really resentful.

It's frustrating that after so long showing Batman as a Zen master with so much to look up to, the last issue looks down on everything he's built and become and says "it's worthless."

That's really frustrating. Batman should be an inspiration, not a failure.

Blame Didio and Lee for fucking with his run and plans.

>SHORYUKEN

IMO the idea that Bruce being Batman is a slow beautiful death isn't really that out there.

Even the DCAU in MOTP knew he could never go back after putting on the mask for the first time. Beyond shows us a lonely and isolated Bruce until Terry shows up.

It's the sacrifice he makes to be Batman. He knows he can never truely go back/be normal while being Batman. But he still tries to form family bonds anyway or they fall into his lap.

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Eh. I just wish there'd been something that didn't leave it all feeling nihilistic at the end.

I don't like what Snyder did (largely because the n52 editorial edict that the Batfamily had to suck), but at least his run ends with Batman being a figure of inspiration. (even if he then went on to make Magic School Bus Justice League). Morrison's Batman ends with everything in ashes and Ra's ascendant.

At the rate it's being delayed, this might very well be the case.

It has obviously suffered some MAJOR rewrites and I truly think DC wants to save the universe alteration reset at the end if several of the big events going on now concurrently start to tank.

What makes you think it's rewrites, instead of Gary Frank being a slow slowpoke?

Batman Beyond was great, but it shouldn't be the end all, be all of Batman development. It's a very mean-spirited view of the character.
It's like saying that Superman will see everyone he loves die and he'll be left as the last survivor of a dying universe. Who wants that end for Superman?

Sure, Batman is a tragic character, but he's also an inspiring character. I'm not even talking about romantic love and shipping here. Batman Lego had the best message of anything Batman related. Bruce Wayne's a lonely orphan and eventually managed to build a family of his own with other orphans. He's now a family man. A father like his father was. And he's happy. Sure, you can throw a few romances here and there, but that's more fluff than anything. Making everything be about romance, be it the lack of it or not, is a mistake.

This is why i dislike this whole BatCat thing a bit. BatCat has become the end all, be all of Batman. They turned a cat-and-mouse thing that was supposed to be a side-dish into an OTP thing where now everything is all about how important Catwoman is to Batman.

Heck, Tom King, Mr. Depression himself, wrote a Superman who has led humanity past the solar system, and discovered a way to keep Lois alive for millenia, and Jon is his pride and joy.

I don't think that King is saying BatCat is the only thing that's important - but he's using it to pry into the idea of Batman, whether he truly has to be alone, or whether he can grow just a little bit, enough to be happier while still devoted to saving Gotham.

I'm HOPING Selina having lied is just bruce's nightmarish interpretation of the events and not foreshadowing that she actually lied.

filler keeps you from getting fat

and it helps them feed their kids

won't you help the children, user?

I suppose one might consider Cataclysm and No Man Land's messages about poverty, human nature and trauma to be meaningful, but nah, the Lego kids movie had the deepest message.
This is why you don't listen to casuals who don't read comics.

I feel that Tom King has been touting the BatCat romance as main source of development for Batman. Several things come to my mind.
King making both Batman and Catwoman into two damaged orphans that "killed" their past lives to become the Bat and the Cat, to point where Batman won't believe that Catwoman killed the terrorists despite having no proof simple because of his belief that she share his messed up view on death: that death is a choice you make, not something you impose on another. Same for their love for one another being based on them seeing their mutual pain for being so damaged in each other's eyes and their acts of passion being the only thing that ease that pain, with Batman comparing it to them sharing their deaths.
King having Batman confess to Gotham Girl that he's not happy helping people as Batman and that his only source of happiness is Catwoman, but that he was afraid of pursing her.
King having Batman confess to Holly that he feels nobody, but Catwoman understands and accepts him. Only she is able or willing to. And how important that is to him.
King revealing that Catwoman mostly steal so she can attract Batman's attention and distract him from his never-ending self-destructive crusade, because she feels their game is much better for him than his pointless self-imposed crusade.
King having several characters telling him to give up on being Batman and try to be happy with Catwoman. As if being Batman was something bad, specially for him, and being with Catwoman was the best for him.
King having Batman treating his family as fragile little things and only partnering with Catwoman, or ignoring his family and only focusing on Catwoman not being in his life anymore.

Not to mention King's usual MO of his protagonists seeing woman as the cure-all of their problems.

I've read those comics, bro. They aren't unknown. I'm just talking about the topic at hand which deals about relationships. Relax.

this is how batman figures out it's bane behind everything

all the machinations involved

and then he gets up

he kicks whoever's ass

and he wins

because

he's

batman

>Heck, Tom King, Mr. Depression himself, wrote a Superman who has led humanity past the solar system, and discovered a way to keep Lois alive for millenia, and Jon is his pride and joy.
Didn't humanity abandon Earth, leaving Superman behind to stubbornly defend a empty place because he felt that was his home, and Lois and Jon were dead?

>I don't think that King is saying BatCat is the only thing that's important - but he's using it to pry into the idea of Batman, whether he truly has to be alone, or whether he can grow just a little bit, enough to be happier while still devoted to saving Gotham.
Batman's not alone. He has a family. He also shouldn't be miserable as he is here. King is ignoring all of that and making Catwoman be the only thing that truly matters to Batman.

>Lego Batman had the best message of any Batman media
No, don't double down, own up to what you said. A statement that discredits you of any validity.

Sure, Batman made a family of his own with other orphans. I like it. I like it the most. Wanna fight?

>I like the most
We get that you consider the children's movie more meaningful than the hundred issues about the human condition because you didn't read them. It's just most people would be modest about their ignorance instead of flaunting it.

No, i read them. I still like that children movie message.

Sure buddy, sure. If you read comics you'd know the movie's point already had been done in the comics.

I know, faggot. It's something from the comics i also like. But it is easier to point out to the animated movie because the animated movie was all about Batman feeling lonely and trying to bone Batgirl, before learning that he now have a family in Robin and Batgirl. He didn't need romance to complete him, he needed an actual family. So it's easier for to say Batman Lego.

God, you're annoying as fuck.

Thats not what "best message in any batman media" means. Its obvious you don't have any experience so your whining about King is as valid as a casual's.

When it comes to Batman, i feel the Bat-Family should be placed in a higher importance than whatever romance. The Batman Lego movie message pleased me because it suited my tastes. I liked the movie. I think its message is great because i agree with it. I've read tons of Batman comics. Even some i shouldn't have. That message is still the best for me because i find it poignant.

Now eat my ass.

If you read comics you'd have referred to comics with the same message that tell the story for adults, not a children's movie that's not even canon. It's just what some idiot interprets as Batman, so it's not even relevant for discussion of Main Earth Batman.

This is what happens when you give DCAUfags control of the comics. Look at the entire direction DC is going, Justice League is almost the exact JL

DCAU had far better ships, though.
like Batman plowing Batgirl.

Jim pls

You have a lot of points, but I think you're reading them in too isolated a way. I know that King didn't try to use too many of the family members because other writers were using them, but he did use them to highlight Bruce's love for them. But if he's trying to write an arc where Bruce comes to a better understanding of love for his family, him shutting them down in I Am Bane makes sense, because he's not yet at a right understanding of how to be a family to them yet.
As for the reading of Batman #24 as Batman saying "I'm not happy saving people, only Catwoman will make me happy" - that's not at all how I read it. He says "I am Batman because I'm trying to be happy." But I think King is showing that Batman is trying to add Catwoman, a future, to his neverending present fight against evil, not stop the fight because it's not worthwhile.

Nope. Superman went with humanity, and I think it's likely he led them. He only visits the earth to remember his parents, and Lois and Jon are both alive because of something called the "eternity formula" which tastes like grape.

I get what you, but knowing King's past comics i feel that my understanding that King's only concentrating on the BatCat relationship and Catwoman as the answer to Batman's every problems is a fair. The characters of the Bat-Family, whenever they show up, are only there to give Batman some validation to pursue Catwoman even more. Them existing or not doesn't change Batman's state of mind and, specially, development. Even Nightwing being shot in the head and becoming amnesiac pale in comparison to Catwoman canceling the wedding with Batman as far as the narrative goes. The last one was much more destabilizing. Even during this arc is what Bruce's concentrating more on. There's little difference between.... say Nightwing, and John Constantine or the Question during this arc. The Bat-Family is inconsequential in this run. It's Catwoman that's essential. And that's very King.

Catwoman being with him is key to his happiness, Nightwing is not, since Nightwing was always there.

I know that what is going on in the Nightwing title is a shitshow, but King originally wanted to fix the problem with Zatanna or have Tim become Nightwing to help his brother (both of which, btw, would have been so much better stories than the utter tripe we have now). I think, in King's mind, Bruce hopes that Nightwing will be okay, but there's nothing he can really do about it. He doesn't know what's happening with Catwoman (partly because he doesn't know how deep Bane's plan goes), and so his mind is eating itself with that uncertainty.

King's actual plan for the story was for Nightwing to become retarded and for Tim to babysat Dick, while taking the Nightwing mantle for himself. Zatanna was just an out of jail card King gave DC to undo it. Hell, the one who came up with the story of KGBeast shooting Nightwing in the head was King himself.

>IMO the idea that Bruce being Batman is a slow beautiful death isn't really that out there.
>Batman Beyond was great, but it shouldn't be the end all, be all of Batman development. It's a very mean-spirited view of the character.

Between this, and Tec last week, I am sick and tired of autistic Batman. And I don't mean that as a pejorative. They are taking the worst version of Batgod preptime plotarmor bullshit that was only ever 13 year old speculation and legitimizing it. Yeah, he puts himself in an AI simulation every year that only exists to kill him just so he can get better year after year. He does it because the mission is all that matters. Because of the mission he can't be a functional adult living even the remotest semblance of an actual life. Oh, and he does all of this because he won't be satisfied until not a single person is murdered in Gotham.

When you are a child, you look at Batman and are fascinated with the costume, with the Cave, with the Batmobile and the Batplane, and fighting bad guys, having all the toys, and being intelligent enough and trained enough to go up against his cadre of rogues and save the day, because that is all you pay attention to, but these writers are taking Bruce Wayne to a point, where I would go back in time to stop him from becoming Batman, not so he wouldn't be there to stop an evil plan, but because I legitimately pity him at this point. Even with everything that he has, that adored in my childhood, I can only look at Batman these days, and feel sad because and for him.

Maybe I am just a goober with pleb sensibilities, but I don't think that's how the character should make me feel.

That's literally what I just said.

I'm sorry, user, but i thinking you're excusing King too much. The same Batman doesn't know what's going on with Catwoman, he also doesn't know what's going on with Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara, and so on. Specially Damian. Damian's going a very dark path and where's Bruce? He's certainly not worrying about Damian in his own book, instead he's naval gazing about Catwoman, their relationship, their aborted wedding, and so on.

Nah, Grant Morrison himself have talked about this. Writers are too focused on making Batman be a repressed autistic fuck full of mental issues who can't seem to cope as an adult person, let alone be effective as a vigilante.

I think Batman's relationship with Damian is a problem for the overall universe, but it's not really King's fault per se. Yes, if he were determined, he could do it - but he's not a great collaborator (unless he's working in the way that he did on Grayson). To "fix" Damian and Bruce's relationship, you'd have to devote an entire book, and likely an entire group editor, to that project, after the damage Morrison and Snyder did to the relationship.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect every book to write in awareness of every other book. It's fun when a side reference happens, but are you out there ragging on Snyder for putting Batman in a full body cast when that doesn't appear in any other Batman book?

I hate to say this, because I think Snyder and King are both super nice guys, but both of them are a huge bundle of neuroses and trauma, and that's why their Batmen are huge bundles of neuroses and trauma.

Contrast to Tomasi, who writes a bluff and hearty, father-knows-best Batman, and Tynion, who writes a very huggy Batman. I think that's because Tomasi is a bluff and hearty dad, and Tynion loves hugs.

Sure, ignoring the Damian issue. We're sidetracking here. I hold the opinion that Tom King and his run is all about Batman and his romantic relationship with Catwoman as some sort of mental therapy, because that's what i've learned that King likes to write. You disagree, and that's fine, but come on... you know, don't you? If King cared about any other relationship that Batman has, he'd have focused on them. It has been all about Bane's keikaku and Catwoman being a fix.

Whoops, this was supposed to be in response to

I know, and it's part of what I loved about Batman Inc. Morrison said himself that Bruce had recognized his obsessive tendencies, and was going to be more of a James Bond superhero hairy chested love god who was competent, had the mission, but wasn't a slave to it. There was a degree of enjoyment of it, and a capacity to develop relationships, and care for people. It was great. It showed a person capable of making lemonade out of the lemons the world had given him, and that lemonade being able to be sweet, and not only sour/bitter. I was able to read Batman and be excited, but these days what you described is exactly how things are, and frankly it's kind of a regression for Tomasi, that almost feels like an unintended consequence of being able to write a family man, raising his son, enjoying his existence, before having it cut short so an overrated hack could go on to shit all over it.

I mean, there's zero questions that King's Batman run is about: Bane's hatred for Batman and Batman and Catwoman's love. That's literally what King said. I don't dispute that at all. I don't think that necessarily means that Batman's love for Catwoman has to be "therapy" or a "fix" - it's him trying to grow as a person. I do think King has a tendency to view women as saviors - just look at his posts about his wife and mother - and then look at how he portrays Barda, Selina, and Vision's wife - but I don't think that's necessarily bad. Every writer has their "things" - I happen to like King's thing, but it is something he definitely does all the time.

Then we're in agreement. Slightly. I liked Tom King's thing in Mister Miracle, but not here. Like i said, i feel that Kings Batman only cares about Catwoman. It's like as if she was his life-saving boat for him. It'd be one thing if his name was Scott and this was Barda, but it's not. I just disagree with King's take on these characters.

>I just disagree with King's take on these characters.
And yet I would kill to see him write more of Damian and Selina. Their brief interaction before the wedding seemed like a nuanced departure from what people usually do for Damian with other people.

Interesting. I actually really disliked how King ended Mister Miracle (because it felt to me that he was saying "it's okay to abandon your real wife and live in your head with a fantasy wife and child"), but am liking what he's doing here with Bat and Cat. I will say, though, that almost every King story really depends on the ending, for me.

And I don't think it's true that King's Batman only cares about Catwoman. He cares about Clark, and Diana, and Alfred (their relationship in #50 was the best part of that issue), and Dick, and all of his boys. He just happens to be focusing on Catwoman for this story. And this story is 100 issues long, so it seems excessive. And maybe it is. But I'm having a good time along the way.

Man, you know what?
I'd love it if that were the case. I'd love if catwoman was there to heal Bruce. To support him, help him find the joy in life, bring balance and happiness in his tower.
But King ain't writing that. Selina is making things worse for Bruce. She's not helping him at all.

I never could understand this concept of Bruce Wayne being a miserable person because of the whole Batman thing. I went through some traumatic shit and while i was a teen trying to find my answers and ways to cope with my life, that for me was literally the worst years of my life. I knew nothing, i couldn't do anything, and i couldn't see a way out, a solution. It was hell. Finally things clicked and i found a calling, i'm happy now doing what i do, and my job connected me with people. I feel rewarded. That's the best feeling in the world. Romantic relationships are a wonderful thing to live, but if you don't feel useful you're still going be a mess of regrets and be a terrible person to be around with. You'll poison some relationships. But doing something and feeling rewarded for it? That's the best because you feel right with yourself. From you to you. You'll also be able to pass that feeling to those around you.

So i honestly always viewed Bruce as having a horrible life full of disappointments and regrets before finding the bat. That feeling of powerlessness where no matter what you try nothing seems to work and you don't know what else to do. But being Batman? That should be like God lifting the veil and showing him the way. That's his calling. That's why i always thought Bruce should have a great time being Batman, even more so after finding Robin, making friends with other heroes like him, and so on. Sure, it's never all rainbows and sunshine, and everything there's a cost, but i honestly think he should feel empowered and happy being Batman, and that it shouldn't really stop him from having a romantic life, unless his partner was against him being Batman, but then that's more on his partner than him.

Whatever else, like depression and stuffs, there's treatment for that, pills. There's no other fix for stuffs like that. Stopping being Batman and marrying won't cure it away, that's for sure. Nor being Batman.

>Getting this assblasted that someone likes Lego Batman
Jeez you sure are a cringry little faggot

I felt Damian was too accepting of Catwoman. Like Lois was. That Superfriends arc was a head scratcher. Historically Lois was always against Catwoman. It's okay that Batman wants to build a life with Catwoman, but not everyone would logically accept her. It's like King switched Clark and Lois. Whereas Clark would be more keen to turn another cheek and Lois wouldn't, King had Lois convincing Clark to deal with it. Probably because he likes to write the woman leading the man.
I liked it because Scott and Barda always were alone and they literally saved each other from hell. I also took that story more in the meta-sense, in that King was pretty much telling himself using Scott that a comfy, boring life of a family man isn't any less important that of a patriotic soldier (or CIA agent), because there's always going to be wars and your country have tons of civic mind men and woman defending it, but you are only you, and what matters really is if you're content with you life, even if sometimes you feel it's a fake thing, a fantasy, because the real ugly world is out there beyond the window with people suffering and warring and stuffs while you're coped inside a pretty house washing dishes and changing diapers. So in that view i liked the story.

Here in this run i feel that King's making Catwoman too essential to Batman's life, when i never felt she really was. It feels forced, contrived, and a little childish. Batman too feels too immature and apathetic.

King is the worst Batman writer

the batman story is the one of the few comics im buying that im most into right now, im enjoying this story quite a lot and I don't rightly know why.

100% dude. Honestly, I'm really happy you found that calling, and purpose, btw. Good for you.

With Bruce, being Batman, if anything, should facilitate his being a fuller, more complete person, because it becomes a vehicle for focusing his trauma into something positive for himself and his community.

I think there is an argument to be made that with the style and tone of shit you see in Gotham, he could very well develop supplementary traumas as a consequence of the Mission, not unlike those developed by career law enforcement professionals, but those don't necessarily need to always go directly back to gunshots, falling pearls and dead parents, and I think it's the cheap direction lesser authors go for.

Would he be exposed to the causes of new traumas without the Mission compelling him to actively direct himself to them? Probably not, but, and again this requires nuance, I believe there is a way to depict a young man broken by the loss of his parents, that doesn't jettison who he is as a person for the purpose of becoming a receptacal for talents and skills he'll need for a Mission he hasn't begun to conceptualize, who can still be a lost boy, seeking direction, and finding it in his training, that facilitates the discovery of his calling. I believe at the moment of that discovery you can close a chapter on the psyche of Bruce Wayne as a directed functioning adult, then begin a secondary one considering the consequences of the Mission on the psyche of a directed functioning adult. I think you could have him be angry and demonstrate the characteristics of people who've witnessed and experienced a career of shit on the streets, but I think the only time you ever take him back as a character to the broken hollow shell of a boy who just watched his parents be murdered and obsesses over it, is during instances of an extended absence from the Cowl, like Knightfall, where he is deprived of the vehicle that facilitates his being able to function.

>filler

The first few issues of Knightmares were filler, but this is the first issue since #50 where the fallout from The Wedding is front and center.

King is laying the groundwork for Wedding 2.0 in #100. That may not be in the cards from an editorial standpoint, but I don't know how you resolve the storyline in any other way that would be remotely satisfying.

>but I don't know how you resolve the storyline in any other way that would be remotely satisfying.
Killing Catwoman.

>I felt Damian was too accepting of Catwoman.
Well keep in mind, that he went through the arc where Selina fought Talia, entirely against her, even with his big brother/surrogate father telling him to lay off. Then he begrudgingly accepted her, honering his father's choice. Then his grandfather tried playing mindfuck games on him, and partially succeeded.

It only took Damian at what was simultaneously his most childish and most mature moment, addressing his concern about being replaced as a son, and heir to a legacy that King wrote Selina at arguably her most reasonable. Having the recognition that she probably shouldn't have kids, questioning what claim she would have to demand anyone be able to manage their own baggage while also needing to meet Selina's standard as a parent that she might not even be able to meet. Then there was the simple recognition that of the entire Batfamily, excluding Jason, they are all goodie goodies, and that it might be nice to have someone else with a questionable resume there to watch over and be watched over by.

Whether it was too accepting or not, Damian had a arc and growth, and there was a dynamic set up between two characters, that would have been different from what we usually get, that from a storytelling standpoint I was excited to get more of.

What if Catwoman has been allied with Bane since the beginning?
Flashpoint Batman, Gotham Girl, Catwoman, and so on. All of these people that been pushing Batman to find happiness were all doing it so because they hoped they'd be able to eventually break Batman. Now they're coming for the kill and the end is Bruce realizing that his mind has been tempered by Hugo Strange and the Psycho Pirate since the to make him feel miserable, insecure, and needy, so he'd be more dependent on Catwoman and easier to manipulate, but now that he understand where the attack have been coming from and how, he's over it and will take the fight to Bane and the rest.
In the epilogue Catwoman explain she only agreed to be a part of Bane's keikaku because of some slight from the past and that there are no more hard feelings anymore, but Batman tells her to fuck off.

Man, the reaction to that would be hilarious.

Attached: interesting.jpg (382x391, 74K)

To be honest, that entire Talia arc was pure bullshit of the highest order. Pure fanfic tier.

Editorial pulled down their pants and took a wet shit on seven years of the best Batman comics ever that celebrated all aspects of continuity. He deserves to resentful.

>but I don't know how you resolve the storyline in any other way that would be remotely satisfying.
Simple, it won't have a satisfying resolution.

well, this one was cool

>but this is the first issue since #50 where the fallout from The Wedding is front and center.
Are you high? The book has been nothing but “fallout” from the wedding. Bruce has been an emo bitch that destroys public toilets and punches Jim Gordon because Catwoman leaving him is literally the worst thing to ever happen to him apparently (even worse than any of his fucking sons dying). The whole book has been dragging its feet with the Catwoman bullshit and still is and will keep on in future issues.

He showed up at the end of the most recent issue too IRC.

once again king shits on both bruce and selina

BRUCE PROPOSED TO HER, HE'S TURNED THE CORNER AND HE CAN BE HAPPY WITH HER AND STILL BE BATMAN

this run is complete shit and poisoned both characters for a decade

>King is laying the groundwork for Wedding 2.0 in #100.
1. Never gonna happen. Didio admits he hated marriages and that they are forbidden.
2. Who cares? They already wasted their big wedding money shot just to “subvert expections” and make Batman even more emo.
This relationship is dead. Catwoman is a bitch and Bruce is a shitty father. King has done more damage to Bruce and Selina than Marvel has done for Peter and Mary Jane.

This issue is almost a word for word retread of the Rooftops storyline.

And that issue was already terrible. Now here it is being paraded again.

Showed up a few issues ago, and implied to be appearing next month.

Isn't it obvious that she lied? Everything is being set up by Bane.

I think that’s the point King’s been going for since the Wedding.

My idea is that Selina didn't lie, she got manipulated by Holly who is working for Bane into genuinely believing what she wrote in the note.

King always write self-defeating endings that doesn't change anything and amounts to "well, what you going to do".

well

okay

this is a good post

damn son, you're pretty triggered over a comic book. how about you just stop reading and then read again when a new writer comes on?

Is Tom King the Rian Johnson of comics?

Johnson's never done anything wrong