DC should turn Batman into it's biggest villain

And that's the primary reason I just re-read old shit from the 70-80's. An occasional dip into that outlook would have been interesting as a change of pace, but I'm way past done with it at this point.

It’d be neat to get a “Bruce meets Old Man Bruce as in Batman Beyond” where Bruce sees that his anti-social paranoia gets him alone forever and starts to make positive changes in his life once he gets back home.

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>Batman's pretty much a horrible person and a terrible hero by now.
How so, and by what metric is Batman a bad person and a bad hero
>The contingencies
How is having "in case of emergency brake glass" plans bad? How many time has Superman been brainwashed again?
> the Brother Eye satellite
Was a one-time bad idea spurred on by having his memory wiped while many heroes knew and not only agreed but did nothing after finding out like Superman, it only monitored meta-human.
>the OMACs
that was Maxwell Lord
>the constant abuse towards his protegees and sons
What CONSTANT abuse?

That works best as an alternate Batman. Between Dawnbreaker and Red Death, idk which one I prefer, but both of them are god tier.

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Which fucking funny books have you been reading?

>Batman is a hero so dark there's almost no distinction between him and his worse villain
I don't agree with that at all, at least not when he's written well. From the beginning the dark and violent aspect of Batman was just a persona that he worked to propagate to scare hooligans straight, he was never actually that dark.

>hat CONSTANT abuse?
Batman's always treating everyone under him like shit, even his own flesh and blood. There's a reason he's mostly alone.

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>Edgehog the Green Lantern
>Godtier
No.

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Isn’t that what Batman Who Laughs is supposed to be

Unlike most anons, I will agree with you on this, but I also think you're undermining how dark some Superman/Wonder Woman/Flash stories have been.
There's a place for dark stuff in both DC and Marvel and that's a good thing. If every superhero story was the same old optimistic "flawless character X saves a cat from a tree" comics would become boring really fast.

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He is for me. But I appreciate you're using my reaction image from the Shazam thread.

user I think what you're really asking for is more Owlman and The Crime Syndicate

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Only now people have been realizing that DC has been writing Batman as a shithead?

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Poor Alfred. I always wanted a comic where he defended Wayne Manor against an attack by Lobo.

Batman Who Laughs is a Batman from an alternative universe that smelled Joker's brapts. It isn't the same thing. I'm talking about the actual, "normal" Batman being made a villain because... let's be honest, he has pretty much became Ozymandias in the last few years. He's constantly spying and analyzing everyone even his closest friends, always scheming behind everyone's back, always trying to attain some doomsday McGuffins, always going off the handle with his mood-swings, and his villainesque behavior always end up biting his friends in their asses and costing people their lives.

Batman's already essentially a villain, but one that works for the good guys' side. It'd take very little to make him a proper villain.

Again what CONSTANT abuse? I hardly call an error in judgment after his son died good evidence. How the fuck is batman alone? If anything he has too many supporting characters.

He also beat up Jason to a bloody-pulp after Jason tried to kill the Penguin off within good reason. He's constantly slapping Dick's shit like a pimp, he's constantly neglecting his 13-year old son. Batman's a terrible father and mentor.

FUCK BATMAN!

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You remember before Venom came out that there were people quoting that turd in the breeze line and how stupid it sounded, then when you watch the film it makes sense in context?

This is that again. Fuck the people who make trailers.

To be honest, Dick was pretty much a "Fuck Batman" character throughout the entire show.

>He also beat up Jason to a bloody-pulp after Jason tried to kill the Penguin off
Good fucker desired it Bruce should have locked his ass up in Arkham years ago. He made a promise that he would change, they even had burgers together Jason is a fucking traitor.
> He's constantly slapping Dick's shit like a pimp
No he doesn't CONSTANTLY slap him around
>he's constantly neglecting his 13-year old son
I think he is fucking fine remember this is a comic, Comicbook kids are fine plus Superman gave his son to a fucking villain, Damian is fine.

Everything that happened during Infinite Crisis, Forever Evil, Futures End, and Dark Metal is on Batman. There are probably more story-lines like that. When will Batman face justice?

He constantly slap Dick around like as if he was a little battered bitch.

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This is child abuse.

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>80 years 2 examples
>CONSTANT

One of those was for Dick's benefit, Batman was getting rid of something in his teeth

There are way more than two.

He was controlled by Antithesis at the time

Stop making excuses for Batman, Dick!

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Or make the World's "Greatest Detective" into an actual detective on par with Sherlock Holmes.

Looking back he really doesn't have much feats in the way of detective work, just another punch-em hero in tights.

>The contingencies, the Brother Eye satellite, the OMACs, the constant abuse towards his protegees and sons, and so on.
Are you posting on a comics board in fucking 2005? There have been plenty of great takes on Batman since then, that old edgy shit went out of style a decade ago, I swear people complaining about Batman never actually fucking read comics.

>The prevalent narrative now for a good part of a decade has been that Batman is a broken hero that can't save anyone much less himself and only ever manage to make everything worse for those around him and that live in Gotham.
That's bullshit, the entirety of Grant Morrison's run was literally the exact opposite of what you're describing.

There really fucking aren't. Most of what people cite in the modern era is just Batman yelling at Dick in Nightwing Year One, which is purely Dixon retconning history to project his own father issues.

Yeah, and Morrison's in the past and even then that was Morrison trying to actively fight against the said prevalent characterization. Since then we've had Snyder, King, and so on that have doubled on that sort of characterization.

The whole zen warrior thing Morrison tried to make canon didn't stick. Even Morrison himself threw a tantrum in defeat with his last Batman Inc run.

>that old edgy shit went out of style a decade ago, I swear people complaining about Batman never actually fucking read comics.
No, it fucking didn't. Do you even know the state of the current Batman ongoing? The edgy is here to stay.

And people said the exact same thing in 2004, and then Morrison took over the character for the better part of a decade, and then he left in 2013... ya'll are obviously neophyte fans, so I'll say what Morrison would say: tastes go in cycles. Give it another few years, people will get tired of the grimdark trend, hell you're all already bitching about it. I remember people bitching just as much back then, and then we got an eight-year Batman ride that I'm sorry, in my mind eclipses whatever the fuck DC did afterwards in some shitty reboot that got rebooted twice since then.

Funny how this man managed to ruin Batman and Wonder Woman for years with Tower of Babel and Kingdom Come. It's like, Jesus.

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Honestly, i think things are going to get a lot worse for Batman before it can get any better. With things like BvS, Titans finale, White Knight, Dark Metal, and so on, i feel that DC is itching to make Batman a defacto villain. They're probably waiting a pitch where Batman can be a villain for a few years and where they'd be able to milk a lot of events from, before reversing things after they've had their fill.

Batman right now is going through the same trend Superman went, where people just got enamored with the idea of the character as a possible villain.

You have an axe to grind, user.

You can’t blame one man for all the bat-gadgets from the Golden Age that were precursors to “expect the unexpected” Batman, or for Morrison’s JLA Batgod, or DKR’s Batman, or Year One’s Batman, or... etc etc.

There are plenty of influences.

Hey, if people still blame Moore and his Watchmen for the 'Dark Age' of comics, i can blame Waid for the fuck-up characterization that has been plaguing Batman and, specially, Wonder Woman.

they did this with Parallax and everyone hated it

Lots of people adored Hal as Parallax.

>everyone
bullshit

There's plenty of evil Batmen running around as it is. I do think that'd be good for an Injustice 3 where an alternate universe Batman comes in and breaks out Superman and they take on everyone and the two Injustice universe heroes have to stop them.

Sounds like The Hand Daredevil and shadowland to me

America is not and never will be a socialist country.

I think the bigger question is why does DC sustain a model that relies on Batman being their biggest seller so that when interest in him dips or Tom King is writing they killed themselves.

Same reason Superman has been a villain dumbass. In fact he’s probably a better candidate to turn than Superman

But when Superman knocks a building down or Wondy kills Maxwell lord he holds a fucking war tribunal.

At the very least DC needs to stop treating him as a paragon who is never wrong.

I’d rather blame the casuals always telling newbies that Waids stuff is the “definitive” version of anything. Much less his elseworlds crap

You know what'd be a fun what-if? Instead of Bruce becoming Batman, he tries to deal with crime by controlling it. Wayne Enterprises becomes the legitimate face for a massive criminal empire, with Bruce trying to take over or wipe out the major criminal organizations in Gotham, hoping to keep innocents from getting caught in the crossfire.

Instead of punching costumed baddies, he's waging war on mobsters like Falcone and Thorne. Instead of foiling the Joker's latest scheme he's trying to outplay District Attorney Dent and Commissioner Gordon. All while walking the razor's edge and trying to avoid becoming the very thing he set out to control and destroy.

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He already is

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Writers just have him know everything and then drop the "world's greatest detective" line like it means something. But if those hacks could write decent detective fiction they be doing it instead of men in tights smashing into buildings.

This actually sounds interesting.

Waid just built on Denny O'Neill's editorial THIS IS MUH CITY urban legend Batman that was the norm in 90s Batman comics. Which took it's cue from Miller's angry old man characterization in DKR.

It wasn't one guy. It was just years and years of people taking extremes and applying them as norms and writing character trait shortcuts that eventually flanderized the character into a cunt. The height of that was probably War Games/Infinite Crisis, when he was just an impossible character to enjoy. They tried to fix it then, and Morrison alsmot purified the character, but it regressed with the recent hacks.

>Batman is a hero so dark there's almost no distinction between him and his worse villain, and Gotham is a gritty hell-hole with almost no redeeming qualities where everyone suffers.
You may not like it but this is what peak Batfaggotry looks like.
Here's a hint: none of them.

>let's be honest, he has pretty much became Ozymandias in the last few years. He's constantly spying and analyzing everyone even his closest friends, always scheming behind everyone's back, always trying to attain some doomsday McGuffins, always going off the handle with his mood-swings, and his villainesque behavior always end up biting his friends in their asses and costing people their lives.
Here's a guy who gets all his information from second-hand Yea Forums threads.

What is Heroes in Crisis?

It's funny they gave that treatment to Superman in their Injustice franchises.

Also batgod would make a terrible villain. He'd just counter everyone predictably.

Good luck. They would tear reality asunder then show him in the wrong. There's a hierarchy or a food chain of being right at DC is Batman is at the top. Superman is close second, but if a situation arises where they're on opposite sides, writers are gonna make Batman the one in the right. Wonder Woman is third, but way down and writers will shit on her to prop up Batman.
Even when he's wrong they still write it like he's right and it's not a character flaw.
You mentioned Max Lord. Wonder Woman "had to do it", cause "there was no other way". Yeah, cause the writers wrote it that way. If Batman was in her shoes, you can bet your sweet ass Rucka would've found a way so that Batman can keep his angelic hands clean and so can hold a sermon on how "killing Joker makes you just as bad". That's why his strong moral code on "no killing" is an empty shell of bullshit. Writers will never have him in a truly no way out situation. It's easy to be a saint when your own angels in the outfield are stacking the deck in your favor. I'm not saying he should kill, but he should really shut up about it.

It's weird cause I loved Batman since I was a kid, but goddamn do they make it hard to like him.

So, Forever Evil Owlman?

No meta human in DC can nail the same role in being the human ideal and the underdog as the Batman dies.

Superman and even Flash are gods that would be terrifying concepts of hero who turned evil, that what makes it more fun when only Batman has to fix things with a supporting cast made of baseline heroes, their just cooler and more impressive to root for since they have no story breaking powers but tons of resources and plot armor.

Mis-writing after mis-writing doesn't require you to double down on bad storytelling. It just requires you to write well at some point if you want to keep telling those stories. We've seen plenty of good Batman, especially when they lay off the power creep in stakes, or edge, or villain deadliness, etc. Boundaries were pushed stupidly far, and successive writers have felt no need to reel back for some godawful reason, so we've been stuck with a slew of stories that are just a mess in the grand scheme of things. Bring back villains who don't kill end masse or rape every time they appear and you're well on your way. Then have Bruce stop tearing urinals out of the wall.

He abused Dick in teen titans go

I feel like a running theme with Batman is his addiction to power. Bruce didn't have power when it could have made a difference in his life, and everything he does as Batman is that scared little boy in the alley trying to feel powerful and in control. But no matter how many bad guys he beats up, no matter how many world-ending plots he foils, no matter how many people he has surveillance on, and no matter how many meta-humans he has contingency plans for, it's never enough.

In that context, a story where Bruce Wayne becomes a criminal could be a really interesting angle for exploring that side of his character. Starting out with the good intentions, wanting to regulate and control crime in Gotham, but ultimately becoming seduced by the power and control that life gives him. We follow him down his Walter White-esque descent and before long he's bribing cops, destroying evidence, silencing witnesses, Dent and Gordon are desperately trying to bring him down, and Bruce Wayne ultimately becomes everything he hated.

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>their just cooler and more impressive to root for since they have no story breaking powers but tons of resources and plot armor.
>they have no story breaking powers
>tons of resources and plot armor

Plot armor IS a story-breaking power.

can this be a thing? i feel like this should be a thing.

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>Bruce sees his parents' deaths as the result of random violence
>vows to take complete control of the city's underworld so noone gets shot without him giving the order

Just have him rape his villains instead.

Sounds kind of like Red Hood's logic - that crime can't be stopped, but it can be controlled.

Vices are a part of human nature, no amount of punching thugs will stop that. So long as the desire for taboo or illicit goods and services exists, criminal organizations will emerge to provide them, and everything that comes with them. All one person can hope to accomplish is to put limits on it. One man can't stop prostitution, but maybe he can put an end to trafficking of women and children. One man can't stop the drug trade, but maybe he can keep it away from kids. One man can't stop crime, but if all the criminals answer to him maybe it puts an end to the random violence.

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What if, and this is a crazy idea, what if writers just stopped making Batman stupidly OP?

how op can he be if a clown with a knife, a fat guy in an umbrella and a geek in a green suit can stand up to him?

You realize "legalizing" most crime works better than that, right? Like, if your point is to keep drugs away from kids, just legalize drugs and make them 18+

>if we legalize drugs and make them 18+, it'll stop the selling of drugs to kids... just like making alcohol 21+ stopped kids from drinking

A society needs to have standards for acceptable behavior to function or else it just descends into hedonism. That's why limits are put on vices.

Funny to see so many people saying Morrison is the antidote to what the OP is complaining about.
I think he's actually one of the main reasons why Batman has drift away from his detective/vigilante antics into his whole Batgod/major asshole persona.
Him and Waid kinda turned him into that during JLA and his Batman run did pretty much the same. The reason why his Grayson Batman felt so great was because he was the one acting as Batman should, and did before. His Bruce Wayne is complete shit.
And that's not to mention the side effects his run had on Joker and the overall scope of Batman stories.

Why do people that hate batman obsess about the character? Why not just fuck off?

The entire Trinity was responsible for Sanctuary.

Those don't exist any more. They haven't for a while.

This.

Give it time.

Based rant. Absolutely Based.
And the crux of why I just don't like Batman anymore. They've pretty much abandoned why people liked him in the first place in place of satisfying their positions of making him their writers their self-insert.

Bump.

Batman's always shown to be a terrible person in comparison to Superman and Wonder Woman. He's always shown as sorta of a necessary evil, but an evil still. One that have terrible view on humanity and is always doing something sketchy. I don't know what the fuck you guys are on. And writers shit on Wonder Woman to prop up Superman, not Batman. Hell, if anything, writers shit on Batman to prop up Wonder Woman.

Isn't he basically an anihero at this point?