So we know that Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns are greatest and second greatest cape comics of all time...

>Sandman Mystery Theatre is my #2
not cape
>Never read DKR
Then you are barely qualified to talk about cape comics.
People who put A-SS at #3 generally own a wall of trades that is 99% DC.

>not cape
It definitely is. You haven't read it if you're actually trying to claim that.

>>Never read DKR
>Then you are barely qualified to talk about cape comics.
No, I'm just not qualified to talk about your uber-favorite comic, idiot.

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DKR is overrated

>People who put A-SS at #3 generally own a wall of trades that is 99% DC.
I don't know what point you think you're making here. The first two are DC as well. If you'd prefer Morrison's New X-Men, as a run, that's up there too.

TDKR caused a major shift in Cape Comics as a whole. I'm not even going to call it Top 5, but it's influence on the genre is incredible.
I guess if I am going to include Punisher on my list I can't really fault you for SMT, and I admit I've only read about a dozen.

As an old comic reader, I feel that ASS strongly relies on nostalgia for old Silver Age stuff, and without that it's...okay.
I feel the same way about Kingdom Come.
They lean too hard on member-berries and (admittedly) really great art, but are not particularly great stories. Just My Opinion.

Good thread so far guys, but in case you didn't know, Neal Adams has died recently
The Dark Knight Returns would not have existed without him.

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mods better sticky it or else

Those two are kind of a one two punch. I don't think there has been anything else since that comes anywhere close in terms of influence. There is no number three.

Nice list.
I'm also thinking of revisiting Empowered.
Years ago, I read some of it for coom, but I didn't get far.
Simonson is solid. His work with Archie Goodwin on Manhunter is pretty great.
That's a good one.
I sort of see it as a slightly lesser TDKR, but applied to Superman. I'd say it's still great and quite enjoyable, though I would have preferred if Quitely himself took care of the inking and coloring.
I really like this, but it unfortunately lacks consistency. Guy Davis should have stayed on 100% of the time, and I'm of the opinion that the colors should have been mostly left out. This series had every reason to use color sparingly.
There are prior, incredibly influential comics, but you may be right in that it's difficult to measure up to those two, since they bring so much more to the table.

I have read this twice but never bought it.
I can tell the art is something that translates better onto physical pages rather than a computer screen.
My point is just tell me to pull the trigger and by a physical copy.

Not quite. I think most people read through all of it not picking up on all the interwoven elements, partly because the expectations for superhero comics are so low.

How do you guys feel about Enigma?

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Morrison's Flex Mentallo was supposed to be #3, ushering in a new golden age of comic book creation. But alas the world didn't listen and we had the 2000s era of comics that led to where we are today instead.

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the 4 part Deathlok miniseries from the early 90s

Are these the first 10 comics you read? Absolute rubbish. Punisher has terrible art, Daredevil Born Again falls apart in the ending, the Dark Phoenix saga is just garbage, disposable comics, Planetary is baby's first Wildstorm comics and worse than anything else on the line, Empowered is a coomer joke and Simonson's Thor is fine, but badly paced and overall too unfocused. Plotlines are dropped and there are no deeper themes.

It's Kirby's Fantastic Four.
>b-b-but it doesn't fit neatly as a "Graphic Novel"
Neither Watchmen nor Dark Knight were graphic novels. Both of them originally released as single issues.
Nothing comes close to Kirby.

the dragon ball manga is unironically god tier when you consider how quickly it was rushed out every week, and usually toriyama crammed everything in the last couple of nights before. really solid art, panelling and some great character drama driven action. that being said, it becomes garbage during cell

...

OP said I could include manga to be fair. Anyway, it’s interesting to me that all these great comics come from the 80s

This one's good too.
It's a little too referential, but good.
Interesting. I'll look into this one.
I do agree about Punisher and its art. The lack of care for that one is infuriating.
Born Again is great, but does suffer from having a false beginning and false ending, being part of a run. The art, built-up drama, and eventual non-stop action make it incredibly memorable, and the final, homage issue is a nice send-off.
Planetary is among best of the WS comics I've read. Better than The Authority, at least.
I didn't care for Claremont X-Men either.
I remember there being a lot of dud storyline/issues in that one, but Kirby is great.
Now this one I'd say doesn't count. There is Great Saiyaman, but I remember that being boring. Also, as you said, it gets kind of bad.

>being part of a run
It's not actually part of a run. Miller came back from an absence to do that story especially. There's just no excuse for how tonally clashing the grounded, biblical first chapters are compared to the "explosions and giant guns" Hollywood ending about a super-soldier.

I wouldn't say the first part of the book is totally grounded. It's still a world of superheroes, just that all the vibrancy was taken away, and that was left was the seedy underbelly of the crimefighter's world, as if Kingpin took over the tone of the story as well. When Matt returned, so did the costumed mayhem.

Capes are for fags

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You know, I didn't think The Maxx was all that great. The art was good, but that's about it.

I put DKR over Watchmen personally.
For superhero comics:
1. Dark Knight Returns
2. Watchmen
3. Pax Americana
4. Miller/Janson Daredevil
5. New Frontier

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I don't agree about Watchmen OR TDKR's placement but here are my 10 favorites in no particular order:
Annihilation
Ex Machina
Runaways by Brian K. Vaughan
Fantastic Four by Jonathan Hickman
Planet Hulk
All-Star Superman
Green Lantern by Geoff Johns
Batman: The Long Halloween
Captain America by Ed Brubaker
New X-Men by Grant Morrison

While I do agree that good literature explores themes instead of just telling a good yarn, I do think that as comics are a distinct medium, the "best comics" aren't just going to be "the comics most like the best novels, except with pictures."

For example, have all the complex and interesting themes in a movie that you'd like. Have it rival the best postmodern novels in that regard. That movie is still not going to be considered "one of the best movies ever" unless it also has good cinematography and does something interesting with the conventions of the medium that are unique to that medium.

Likewise with comics Sometimes, what makes something a great comic isn't just what would make it a great novel were it prose instead of sequential art.

For example, take Jack Kirby's Fourth World saga. Nobody would say that the writing is on par with Dostoyevsky. Nobody would even compare the writing to high-water marks in genre prose, like Tolkien. But these are still damn good comics, and there's a reason people hold Kirby in high esteem as a master of the craft. The merits come from things that have to do with what makes something a good comic.

Then you have things like Watchmen, Maus, Love & Rockets, and Sandman, which have that crossover appeal. They have elements that could make them fine novels were they prose. But it's not that alone that makes them celebrated comics. They also have merits that make them good comics specifically.

You might also have something like Here, which could never possibly be anything other than a comic. You can't even imagine "if this were prose instead of a comic, what would it be like?" That question doesn't make sense in the first place. So, it's a great comic purely in its merits as a comic, similar to how Kirby's stuff are good comics purely in their merits as comics.

The ultimate manchild "I like bright colors" list.

There is no universe where any of those comics are even close to Watchmen or TDKR

Daredevil Born Again
or Denny O'Neil's Question

this run should be up there

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the ultimate manchild is someone who believes superhero comics should always aspire to be more than they are, the ultimate manchild desperately wishes for comics to be seen as "serious literature" in the eyes of public opinion

Cool. The adult will continue reading the good superhero comics that ARE what they are, not Geoff Johns rainbow colors clashing.

all art should aspire to be more, to do more. There's a damn good reason Watchmen and TDKR are rated so highly, because they DID do more with the genre.

Geoff Johns wouldn't know what aspiration meant if his Alpha-Bits spelled it out for him. And even then he'd probably just think it meant breathing.

>I put DKR over Watchmen personally.
Interesting.
Good selection, but what about 6 through 10?
Some of these I don't like. Art is a very important factor, and comics like Annihilation and Brubaker Captain America don't look very good to me.
I'll have to back to Fourth World. I don't think I got very far last time, so I feel there's a bit of leniency because he's a great artist, but we will see.
I disagree.

Oh no, there are lots of nice colours to look at while enjoying my story, it's the end of the world, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

you know that's not what he meant so why act like this

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this one retard is literally just butthurt about Geoff Johns for some unexplained reason

His wife was definitely fucked by Geoff Johns.

>some unexplained reason
he's a trash writer that retards vastly overrate. He doesn't even belong in the conversation of "best cape comics"

New Frontier is probalby the best comic of all time that encapsulates everything great about the medium, super heroes, the themes, heroics and art.

Sinestro corps war was wicked, cool and sick.

>Marvel
>ever being in a top tier comic list
Sorry but Marvel is total shitte even when they got Moore and Gaiman.

>but it doesn't fit neatly as a "Graphic Novel"
Which is why you must endeavour to read it like one
zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/

Based. I was thinking of this when I nominated it, brother. Any imbecile who postulates Hickman's Fantastic Four instead is too young to be posting in Yea Forums.

1. Dark Knight Returns
2. Mr. A: The Right to Kill
3. ASM If This Be My Destiny arc
4. Kingdom Come
5. Wonder Woman by George Perez first arc
6. Legends
7. Man of Steel (the Byrne mini)
8. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
9. A Death in the Family
10. Marvels

If we're counting whole runs then replace the ASM and WW arcs with the full runs

>Legends
>Man of Steel
>A Death in the Family
What? There's nothing artistic about any of these. The coloring in ADITF even slips from the lineart.

Not tryna sound pretentious or anything, but have you read Watchmen?

>Marvels
I'd replace this with Kingdom Come desu
Having reread Marvels recently, the only notable part of it is Ross' art

Colour slipping from the line art can be cool sometimes.

Tried twice, never finished it. Found it boring at it's best moments and downright bad at its worst.

KC is already on the list and higher

Whoops my bad, I'm deaf

That's fair, it's not for everyone, although some people around here will say that it is and that you're just stupid.

Yeah, I'm not even an anti-moore fag, I like about as much of his stuff that I've read as I dislike, I just never liked watchmen