/trek/

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imo, I liked that they kept that in as it gave the Romulans as a whole some avenue of growth, especially in showing that they arent all cardboard cutouts, among other reasons (such as a viable third faction to choose)
Also if memory serves STO came out not long after JJTrek so it only made sense

First for "it's Canon!"

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You have to get inside the mind of a Voyagerm to understand. They don't even really have 'minds'. It's just a collection of particles periodically expressing junk that it picked up along the way, babbling about 'comfiness' or Tom Paris as if a rehash of TNG with even more lifeless and forgettable characters was worth the tape it was printed on.

Just there being people that think Voyager wasn't the death of franchise blows my mind. The problems with ENT are so minor in comparison.

But by the end of DS9 and the conclusion of the Dominion War it already seemed like they were coming to a detente with the Federation and some kind of unification was possibly on the horizon

>when anons start mercilessly kicking the dogshit out of voyager

god yes don't stop

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>I've never understood the importance the federation put on the androids as moral objects when they are clearly inanimate machinations
If you take the materialist paradigm to its natural conclusion you are nothing more then a very complex system of feed back loops.
Therefore the question becomes what is the difference between your feedback loops and artificially created ones of the same or greater complexity?

Imagine being such an incel that you can't accept a strong woman captain.
>B.but she's written inconsistently!
So are all the captains, even Sisko.

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Voyager is fucking terrible. It was a major chore to get through that shitfest of a show.

I have a soul.

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Just watch VOY and you'll see.

Agreed. Romulans always have had an identity crisis. They were the nu-Ruskies after we decided to make peace with Klingons, but then the USSR fell. They were kinda sorta Vulcans-with-emotions, but that hardly ever gets explored. And they sorta represented a different governance style:
>starfleet - morality
>vulcan - logic
>klingon - hostility
>romulan - machiavellian/paranoia

Agreed, VOY and DS9 are unwatchable.

Bold choice

If it's sentient, it deserves the rights of sentience. Simple ass.

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Canon for Trek Star, those are Valerian comm badges.

Tell me about Irish Detective Mommy Elf cheeks.

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Cody's a huge nerd, which I like. However he's also woke af, which hurts my enjoyment of AEW. Unironically putting the Women's Title on a trannie is too much for me.

Is the doctor sentient, or is the ship's computer - in which the doctor is a subprogram - sentient?

>'comfiness' or Tom Paris
hell yeah brother

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Petition to make even ironic Voyager posting a bannable offensive. My delicate mallwalker constitution can't handle dissenting opinions.

>sentient
the fruitfly and the earthworm are sentient
should they have rights too?

Oh for sure, but the Tal Shiar still had a stanglehold on the populace and it would have (and did) take something near catastrophic to loosen their grip, served here by the supernova incident.
STO explores what would have happened very well, I think. D'Tan is the leader and unification with Vulcans sorta tamed down to being unified with the other two factions (KDF and FEDs). Sela is still around doing Tal Shiar shit and trying to screw the nuRoms over every chance she can get, so theres still the lingering paranoia. All very interesting.

Truly enlightened take. VOY is a shitpile for obvious reasons, but DS9 too ultimately becomes a fedora cringefest of the sort redditors will howl over. Jump between TOS and DS9 and you'll get whiplash from the soulless edginess of the latter, the sheer parochial nature of the whole thing. Both VOY and DS9 are a disgrace to Gene's vision.

...

Star Trek writers have long confused sentience and sapience

sentience is a completely meaningless word. Its only defining characteristics are completely circular and can't be tested

soulless

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The best metric would probably be to test if whether or not it can ask an existential question. If it can't, then it's slave labor.

One of my favorite episodes.

For all the hate Voy gets, i actually feel the same.
TNG just has sooooo many bad episodes. Voy has the worst episodes, sure. But it has more average episodes.

i hate mallwalkers so fucking much

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AAAAAAH I'M TAKING A FAT VOY

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That's not true. It's a very precise term. Don't confuse your ignorance with fact.

Sisko isn't written inconsistently, he's written as a hypocrite that lectures subordinates/outsiders on personal biases while routinely indulging in his own.
It's hard to hate Janeway when she isn't a character at all.

Moriarty is a subprogram of the ship's computer and nobody questions his sentience.

I'm asking if you think the ship itself is sentient. If not, how can a nonsentient master program contain a sentient subprogram?

>how can the universe contain life

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The ship doesn't have a sense of self, Moriarty does.

That is not in the slightest way similar.

Janeway is shit because she's a know-it-all.
She was a science officer but she was an expert at everything.

That was part of VOY's problem. You had Know it all Janeway and Do It All Paris.

shut up fag

Share your pain, /trek/

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only good thing about VOY is 7

I don't consider the main computer sentient and neither do the characters, But an unsentient thing can give rise to a sentient being, the computer is non-sentient because it was not designed to be, Moriarty and the EMH attained sentience; unpredictably.

Anything that could possibly be giving Moriarty a sense of self is within the programming of the ship.

Gene went from being an idealistic post-war liberal technocrat in the vein of Jack Kennedy in the 60's, to a literal fucking Maoist after the 70s.
Anyone who brings up Genes monolithic, canonical vision as if it ever existed is either a specious asshole or just plain ignorant.

You could say the same thing about Kirk/Spock and Sisko/Jadzia.

This. Everyone knows Val Venus is right, a guy who sold willingly for Chyna. But we all have to roleplay otherwise.

>the complex holodeck program is non-sentient because it was not designed to be, the Enterprise attained sentience; unpredictably, and presented it through a subprogram.

Not from the sound of it.

S1-3 VOY > S4-7 VOY

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Were you seriously expecting any intelligence out of people who claim to be fans of a """captain""" of a fucking space shopping mall?

not even remotely close with Kirk/Spock. Scotty would kick both their asses he if tried to hell him how to fix shit the way Janeway had to with Torres. Jadzia was a special case because of her joining.
And i can't even imagine how you throw Sisko in there.

So I've got one more movie, then a choice.
Should I watch DS9 next?
Should I go straight to VOY?
Should I watch both?
Should I skip both and resume regular tv?

Seven ruined the show for people that weren't virgins

that's just wrong

Sentience is an emergent property.

But the ship itself is not programmed to have a sense of self. There are plenty of organisms on this planet made of carbon based substances just like humans, but they don't have sentience.

Watch DS9
burn VOY in a bonfire in your backyard

as opposed to the captain of a cruise ship?

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Set up two televisions. Watch DS9 on the left screen and VOY on the right screen. Hire a lab assistant to record which show has your attention more and report your findings back to us.

*asses if they tried to tell him
fucked that up

No difference has been proven, other than more precise communication skills.

stationfags are tilting tonight

That's the sad thing, I've set the bar so low for those mallwalking retards. And they fail to even meet those basement level expectations.

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Sapience does not mean what you are implying. They aren't wrong; you are.

Which emerged in the ship, specifically in its holoprograms.
>But the ship itself is not programmed to have a sense of self.
Neither the holodeck.
>There are plenty of organisms on this planet made of carbon based substances just like humans, but they don't have sentience.
The ship has sentience. It is presented through the holodeck. Your body has sentience. It isn't that you have sentience but your body doesn't. There is no sentient system that is only one part of the system, and not spread throughout the entire system.
Don't let your little-man-in-my-head illusion fool you.

Correct. I'm a virgin and Seven didn't ruin the show for me, because it was already ruined.

>two televisions.
Do people not all have dual monitor setups? How do you watch shit and shitpost? But I suppose I could splitscreen one of the screens and marathon both shows.
I'm just trying to figure out if they're worth it. From what little I've seen of DS9, I can't stand Quark and I can't stand Jake and they seem to take up about half the show. I watched Voyager as it aired, but didn't pay too much attention because who the fuck are these people, but I liked Janeway's crazy "Delta Quadrant, aint gotta follow shit" attitude and Kes and seven were fun to look at. Other than that, the show wasn't very interesting to me other than whatever weird shit they randomly came up with for the Delta Quadrant that week then promptly forgot.

>Neither the holodeck.
No, but it programmed a holo being which does.
>The ship has sentience.
It does not. Moriarty exists as a separate entity. This can be easily proven by the simple fact that Moriarty's consciousness was transferred to a different, self-contained computer system (the holobox). Sorry it didn't work out for you. Good effort, though.

I have a 32 inch monitor for my computer and a 65 inch television to my left.

>Do people not all have dual monitor setups
far to unbalanced I prefer three monitors but maybe I am just strange

Who gives a shit. Watch whatever you want, no one cares what you do.

>No, but it programmed a holo being which does.
No, it gained sentience, which was required to display the sentience asked for in the holoprogramming.
>Moriarty's consciousness was transferred to a different, self-contained computer system (the holobox)
All this does is confirm that Starfleet computers are sentient and should be treated as such.

>There is no sentient system that is only one part of the system, and not spread throughout the entire system.

Sentience exists only in a small part of the brain, the rest is autonomic.

Unless you make threads before the bump limit.

>Sentience exists only in a small part of the brain
Based on what? Don't know about you but my sentience spreads through my entire body.

Incorrect. The computer programmed a being and that being contained sentience. And no, Moriarty's consciousness being transferred to another system does not prove that all Starfleet computers are sentient. You are completely nonsensical. It's over. You have to learn how to let go and move on. Come away from this slightly wiser, don't give in to your natural tendency towards stubborn stupidity.

Don't forget to breathe and swallow.

DS9 is worth a watch. Jake gets better as he grows up and you can dismiss Quark and Rom as comic relief if you want to. Nog has a decent arc.

>Voyager

If the right parts of the brain are damaged, the result is a person who cannot move at all, does not react to stimuli, cannot breathe and ECG readings show no brain activity. That is as comprehensive as you can get in saying that somebody is no longer sentient. You could argue that these people are still conscious and thinking but are unable to express themselves physically, and to be honest, I would have no answer for that because I can't mind meld with people. But for my money, that meets all the qualifications for being non-sentient.

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>Nog has a decent arc
I love when he pulls the PTSD scam on Starfleet to get out of work and get unlimited holodeck time. Classic Ferengi tricksters!

Not him, but I'd argue that the evidence points to sentience being a sum of parts rather than being contained in a specific part.

I found the source for this and whoever the poster was, I just want to say that I hate you

Kek. Proof that feel good psychology bullshit pales in comparison to the big dick energy of an alpha male. 1962 ladies man Vic wins again.

>I can't mind meld with people
Not gonna make it.

I respectfully disagree, most of the body can be removed without loosing sentience, but if there's damage to the right area of the brain, sentience is lost in the whole body. Sentience is an emergent property, but it's an emergent property of certain key areas of the brain, not the whole brain and certainly not the whole body.

>but it's an emergent property of certain key areas
...which means it's a sum of parts

>The computer programmed a being and that being contained sentience.
I'm saying this is not possible for a program to do. It REQUIRES sentience to CREATE sentience. This program did not naturally develop. It was by your words written by the computer. And not specifically with the task of sentience. In order for this to be possible the DEVELOPED sentience is in the computer, which then CREATES the holoprogram.
>And no, Moriarty's consciousness being transferred to another system does not prove that all Starfleet computers are sentient.
It proves the possibility. Once Enterprise became sentient, it can transfer that ability to any capable computer system.
People can also survive magnum rounds point blank to the head and be perfectly conscious, going on to lead full lives with half their brain. But this isn't relevant to the point of our consciousness not being localized in our central nervous system. Our consciousness isn't standalone from all the subconscious routines providing our consciousness its awareness.
>most of the body can be removed without loosing sentience
Disagree. Most of the organs within the torso can't be lost while retaining sentience, and I doubt amputees would agree their sense of self remained the same.
>if there's damage to the right area of the brain, sentience is lost in the whole body
Same with the heart. Is the heart the seat of sentience? You're confusing the brain's electrical, musculo-skeletal control with it's dominance in creating the sense of self.

Faggot

Indeed, I was just clarifying that it's the sum of a very small number of parts, because my whole argument rests on the idea that sentience is contained in a small part of the brain.

DS9 > VOY > TNG > TOS

Relax everyone, it's just a falseflagging ENTbabby.

I've never watched ENT because of the annoying intro and I hate prequels, so I didn't rate it.

>The [Enteric Nervous ] system is way too complicated to have evolved only to make sure things move out of your colon," says Emeran Mayer, professor of physiology, psychiatry and biobehavioral sciences at the David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles (U.C.L.A.). For example, scientists were shocked to learn that about 90 percent of the fibers in the primary visceral nerve, the vagus, carry information from the gut to the brain and not the other way around. "Some of that info is decidedly unpleasant," Gershon says.
>The second brain informs our state of mind in other more obscure ways, as well. "A big part of our emotions are probably influenced by the nerves in our gut," Mayer says. Butterflies in the stomach—signaling in the gut as part of our physiological stress response, Gershon says—is but one example. Although gastrointestinal (GI) turmoil can sour one's moods, everyday emotional well-being may rely on messages from the brain below to the brain above. For example, electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve—a useful treatment for depression—may mimic these signals, Gershon says.

>it's a problem with the EPS conduits

Archer's a good captain and T'Pol gloriously carries on the tradition of Star Trek hotties. LOTS of time travel if you care, but also lots of Andorians which is cool and a cool season where they deal with a planet with six species gaining sentience.

>Disagree. Most of the organs within the torso can't be lost while retaining sentience, and I doubt amputees would agree their sense of self remained the same.

The organs of the torso only exist to provide energy to the body. As long as energy is going to the brain, consciousness can persist, but once the right areas of the brain are gone consciousness is lost forever (providing you accept the premise I suggested above, that negative ECG readings and non-responsiveness indicate total non-sentience.) And true enough, amputees have to adjust their sense of self, but any life-change results in a change in identity, the loss of a job or a loved one changes one's sense of identity, but it doesn't make people loose sentience, unlike critical brain damage, which leaves people totally non-responsive.

>Same with the heart. Is the heart the seat of sentience? You're confusing the brain's electrical, musculo-skeletal control with it's dominance in creating the sense of self.

The heart is just a mechanical device, people can and do regain consciousness after the heart has been damaged or even replaced. Those who do not fully recover from heart damage fail to recover due to brain damage due to lack of oxygen. That specific part of the brain that's responsible for higher functioning seems to be the seat of consciousness. Unless you're arguing for the existence of a soul as the seat of consciousness, and the brain is more like a kind of soul-to-body interface device. Which is an interesting idea which many philosophers have argued for and something which I cannot argue against, given that there is no physical instrument which can detect the soul.

You're still thinking like Descartes. The brain is just another part of the system. There's no little man up there.

It's time to check in with the fags over at the Daystrom Institute!

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they treat the Romulans with respect and pretend like they are capable of agency even after they lost their homeworld, unlike Picard

>"Computer. End program."
>...
>Result?

What are the other parts of the system? They can't be physical because all other parts of the body can be removed without permanent cessation of consciousness. If the other parts of the system are metaphysical (i.e a soul) then admittedly, I loose, because nobody can prove or disprove the existence of the metaphysical.

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All I'm saying is you better keep track of your appendix when you show up to Heaven.

>implying the brain generates consciousness
The most unsubstantiated belief ever. Science can't even figure out what consciousness IS let alone how it works.

Well if you are talking religion, then I'm not going to be a neckbeard about it, I never make fun of a man's beliefs and I concede that the existence an immortal soul is possible.

how on Earth is DS9 soulless? you're just speaking mindless gibberish

>Science can't even figure out what consciousness IS
False
>let alone how it works.
False

They've even determined which three centers of the brain are involved. Stop lowering the level of discourse with your stupid shit.

stop being so mad that DS9 had quality writing and none of it went to VOY

and we're called Niners, not "mallwalkers"

Bullshit retard. They've figured out how thinking works, like a computer. The brain is a neural network. That has nothing to do with consciousness, which science knows nothing about.
It's called the Hard Problem of Consciousness.

Section 31 blew up Romulan's sun. And, the Rommies deserved it.

>I can't stand Quark
plebfiltered

Nope, and the hard problem of consciousness has nothing to do with what you're implying. Arguing via ignorance is not a valid perspective.

I find your lack of faith of the heart disturbing.

>and we're called Niners
'Sixty-niners' more like. Because you suck each other dicks. Homo.

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>we're called Niners
cringe

Julian is a more interesting character than over half of VOY's cast lmao

He looks ridiculous. Why couldn't he get the suit fitted properly?

That was probably during the brief zoot suit fad.

Explain why conscious exists and what it is, given we exist in a universe of unconscious particles acting under natural physical laws. Why does subjective experience exist at all? I look forward to your answer because you'll be the first person in human history to do it.

There's never an argument against Voyager, just namecalling and talking about Threshold.

It's TNG lite which is perfectly fine and enjoyable Trek.

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There are people who thing ENT, STD, and/or Picard is good. At least VOY had some good episodes and characters.

>It's hard to hate Janeway when she isn't a character at all.
What does this even mean?
I know VF's obsessed with the show but whenever we go to talk about it he shuts up or just name calls the whole time.

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>Explain why conscious exists
>Why does subjective experience exist at all?
That's not a valid observation. "Why" is an artificial construct of man, not an aspect of the natural world.
>what it is
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

By the way, the "hard problem of consciousness" is a load of bunk created by a philosopher who doesn't understand biology. It has no bearing on actual science. It's a controversial topic pushed by a small sect of philosophers that somehow think subjective experience cannot be explained. It's a crackpot argument that isn't taken seriously because it's so inherently stupid.

All of the characters, except the Doctor, are unlikable. By that I don't mean they are assholes, or I don't like them because they complain too much, or that one is terrible comedy relief where the comedy needs many, many quotation marks around it. Nope. They are unlikable because of their shallow, terrible stories and often piss poor acting and confounding personal choices. The EMH is a sarcastic cunt, but at least he has a good actor and acts sensibly. No one else in the main cast does this.

For the love GOD you people are ancient...

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>That sarah silverman's bouncing titties when she runs down the stairs episode

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VOY is at least still Star Trek. Those are just action sci fi with the name plastered all over it.

Wait you put ENT in there. ENT is Trek too and shouldn't be grouped with modern drek.

Nice, nitpick my use of the word "why" like a bullshit philosopher when you know exactly what I mean.

>Despite centuries of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial,[2] being "at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives".
Did you actually read this wikipedia article? It's mostly talking about how consciousness is a complete mystery and the smartest minds have been in disagreement over its nature for all of history.

I'm guessing you're in agreement with Dan Dennett who hilariously thinks consciousness doesn't even exist

>retcons
>blue jumpsuits
>prequels
>unnecessary relationships with existing canon characters
ENT = STD

The best actor on the show is by far Mulgrew. Her character is written like you'd expect a woman in a tight situation would. Gay men and weird progressives bitch about Seven of Nine being window dressing but she's well acted and some of the shows best episodes are built around her. Of course, the EMH is nothing but enjoyable and fun but they even manage to make him into an ethically complex character in episodes like Latent Image.
You can't say that Roxann is a bad actor, you could surely say that her episodes were more filler than thriller.
I think the Kes and Kim are probably the two weakest characters in the show. But overall, there is a feeling of family and comraderie on Voyager that seems to surpass all other of the Star Trek shows. It doesn't try to be a better TNG, it just tries to be an enjoyable Star Trek and it succeeds, usually. It doesn't certainly forgive the Kazon or the rare garbage fire of a show like Fury or Unforgettable. Just that you can't judge a show by nothing more than it's rare disasters.

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what if sentience and intelligence are not the same thing?

They aren't

Then why does star trek treat them like they are?

This is why D&D separates INT from WIS

Fair enough, but it's still looking at human conundrums and trying to answer them morally. It hasn't completely lost that utopian spark.

ENT was shit but it was still Star Trek and had a few decent episodes. It was the beginning of the end though certainly. I still separate STD and Picard into their own category because they are so wildly and terribly different.

Star Trek is fiction with a lot of fantasy elements

>TNG just has sooooo many bad episodes.
Like hwat?! Final Journey? Pen Pals? Get a lifelife

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>It doesn't try to be a better TNG, it just tries to be an enjoyable Star Trek and it succeeds, usually.
This. The TNG characters become a family beyond their Starfleet fidelity. Also, VOY was a show about a decent crew, not the best of the best of the best, Incels want there to be Oz style shivvings in the mess hall by Maquis psychopaths for some reason.

An opinion not supported by any facts.

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>Star Trek: Enterprise (originally titled Enterprise until Season 3)
It didn't even want to be Star Trek.

that's an insult to ENT which at least tried, STD doesn't even care to pretend

Trying too hard Vee

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The "Dear Doctor" dropoff is clearly visible and it never recovered.

Let's be honest, Voyager is the only show in which the main characters are actually on a trek

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because Rick Berman was all like muh franchise exhaustion

TNG Trekkies:
>DS9 comes out
YAAAAaaaaaauuuuhhhh....
>VOY
YYYYEEEAAAAAAAaaaaaaaauuu???...
>ENT
...huh? oh, mehhhhh

>Nice, nitpick my use of the word "why"
Nitpick? No. You are asking why things nature exists. It's not a valid observation.

>It's mostly talking about how consciousness is a complete mystery
No, the argument is that there is supposedly no explanation for subjective experiences.
>The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of explaining why and how sentient organisms have qualia

>comic relief
That's fair but he's still one of the best characters.

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No, I don't think that's true. It desperately wanted to be Star Trek. It wanted to be Star Trek so much that it wanted to be definitive, it wanted to broaden the appeal to modern audiences by sexing things up significantly and dumbing down the storylines but it still wanted to connect itself to TOS and everything else or it never would've been a prequel in the first place.

ENT set out to make Archer the most important character in the Federation's history much in the same way as STD does with Burnham, but it did it in a way that at least wanted to dominate the Berman Trek landscape. It insisted upon itself with all the retcons, with all of the backtracking, and the grandstanding about the Temporal Cold War and the lead up to the founding of the Federation.

I think ENT wanted to be Star Trek so bad it fucking hurt but as the ratings and interest dwindled, they became increasingly desperate to make it like all of the other shows on television which weakened the Trek brand as a whole. Still significantly better than Kurtzman or JJTrek though because they are pure mass appeal and nothing else.

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Ryan was better than Mulgrew. No one noticed because of her outfit. But she had great episodes, like the one where she manifested personalities of assimiliated races, or the one where the Doctor "hid" inside her.

Kim was the weakest character because they didn't know what to do with him other than make him a punching bag. And I haven't seen Garrett Wang since the show ended.

Roxanne wasn't a great actor but she sure became a hell of a director.

I'm starting to think you don't have a consciousness. It's like talking to a bot.

roxxanne biggs - dawson

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If ENT wanted to be Star Trek so bad, why didn't it have the words "Star Trek" in the title?

Based trips

Has MulGrew ever been nudity?

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Because in the coke-filled hubris of Brannon Braga, I guess they thought calling the show Enterprise would be enough. It wasn't but there were a lot of mistakes made along the way with ENT.

Do you not agree about the show being desperate to retcon and redefine everything in the canon as being similar to a child crying for attention? I think they really thought going in that Archer and T'Pol would end up being more beloved and important than Kirk and Spock. It was a lot of arrogance.

You sound frustrated, but you're still wrong. Your claims so far
>Science can't even figure out what consciousness IS
>let alone how it works
>The brain is a neural network. That has nothing to do with consciousness, which science knows nothing about. It's called the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
All of them? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You're even using terms that you don't even understand the basics of. How embarrassing. You need to listen, not speak.

What did Enterprise retcon? How did it redefine everything in canon?

It also made it difficult to do internet searches for ENT specific content. Going to Alta Vista and tying "Star Trek Enterprise" would mostly bring up TOS/TNG shit.

>director
I was really surprised she never directed an orville episode. Frakes and Robert Duncan mcneill did.

My position is fairly clear, yours is still completely unknown. Why don't you state your position on consciousness so we can get that clear?

Saying "wrong" is not an argument

Tell me everything you've ever known or learned to known about Betazed.
What are their people like?
How do they get along?
What about their history?
And their...?
Yes.
MORE!!!

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Consciousness is a clearly defined aspect of the mind and recent scientific research has been able to reasonably determine which parts of the brain are key to consciousness.

They're telepaths, a matriarchal society and they get married in the nude.

Neither is ignorance, making false claims and misusing terms.

Mathematically speaking no one who remembers watching Star Trek TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY or even Enterprise as it first originally airing is under 30.

who's ready for some of my rodeo red's red-hot rootin' tootin' chili?

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>Consciousness is a clearly defined aspect of the mind
>it exists
Truly illuminating. You are a master of saying nothing at all, I'll give you that.

Just because my position is objectively right and yours is unsubstantiated trash born from ignorance doesn't mean I'm saying nothing. It just means you're wrong and pretty fucking stupid. You also probably think I'm responsible for every post you've responded to, but all I did was jump in to correct your falsehoods with facts.

isn't that episode based off a book?

>What did Enterprise retcon?
Well, it took a one-off joke line Worf made in the TOS episode of DS9 and tried to explain how Klingons started looking different, something that was irrelevant and never needed to be explained in the first place.

It certainly retcon'd the fuck out of Vulcans, making them assholes and then backpedaling into their having a spiritual awakening with the Surak shit. Maybe retcon is the wrong word but it certainly went out of its way to flesh out things that never needed to be flesh out in an effort to desperately tie itself to other Trek shows in a way that would validate its being a prequel. 9 times out of 10, anything they added on and "explained" was worse than it never being explained.

>Well, it took a one-off joke line Worf made in the TOS episode of DS9 and tried to explain how Klingons started looking different, something that was irrelevant and never needed to be explained in the first place.
That's not a retcon. It's expanded lore.

>It certainly retcon'd the fuck out of Vulcans
Again, it's just expanding things that were never detailed. It's filling in gaps. You don't like it? Okay.

Never was gonna happen because Bakula sucks. I think Blalock would have aspired to it because she was a genuine fan.

Some awful writing, too. That episode where Porthos was poisoned by aliens for pissing on some plants was terrible from start to finish. The only thing worse than his acting was the writing. I could never imagine Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Janeway behaving that way.

The debate's older than me. Sorry to bring it up when we could be talking about discordfags instead.
Drone is the single good Seven of Nine episode. The rest are universally shit. Every last one. The whole dynamic between the EMH/Seven/Janeway is bad and it permeates the last 3 seasons.

Trek has been shitting on Vulcans since DS9. I don't know what Berman has against them but christ have Vulcans been treated shitty

Is this boring poster ever going to shut up

I have no idea what your position is except that consciousness is not a mystery.

I think with ENT they set out to do a couple of things that really poisoned the well from the start: Braga wanted to cement himself as the greatest Star Trek writer/showrunner in history which was just never going to happen because he isn't, and Rick Berman wanted to validate himself as a writer/showrunner, showing that he could do more than just produce the shows and occasionally take an editorial hand in their development. He wrote that really mediocre, kind of lame episode about the time-traveling conman in TNG and all of his writing efforts in ENT are just laughably terrible.

It was a vanity and ego-driven project for them from the start. The show started to improve a bit under Manny Coto but it was still a doomed venture because there was very little character done work with the crew other than Archer and T'Pol. The show was pitched as having an ensemble cast but it has the most forgettable crew by far and they get almost zero focus episodes compared to other shows. Mayweather might as well not even exist.

If you were a 21 year-old Jean-Luc Picard, would you be milf slaying too?

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The irony of this post.

See you in the afterlife lol

ENT didn't have a strong cast. Montgomery and Park were green as hell. And Trek has a bad track record with humans. Think about it. Who are the most famous/memorable characters?

Spock
Worf
Data
Odo
Dax
Garak
Dukat
The Doctor
7 of 9
Phlox

7 is the closest to a human.

Other than Kirk and McCoy, humans are Trek's weak link

>Dr. Neelix

Second half of intended for Ryan is not a bad actress. Seven's just a shit character. The EMH is not as compelling as Seven who is not as compelling as Data who in turn is not as compelling as Spock. People give Voyager shit for taking too many trips to the Borg Well but the Spock archetype is so overplayed by that point it makes me want to vomit.

Star Trek was never a niche franchise.

You're not wrong there but there's a big difference between a serviceable and good character and one that hardly even exists.
>Picard
>Riker
>O'Brien
>Sisko
Just a few examples of great human characters with some nuance to them. Hell, I'll take Geordi over any character on ENT any day of the week.
Also
>Dax is on your memorable character list
wtf man. I also think most of the actors on Enterprise were fine. Malcolm's actor seemed to have some chops and I think Trip did a fine job anyway. They just didn't get much in the way of good writing.

The strength of the human thirds of Kirk/Spock/McCoy is that they didn't have to compete with an ensemble for screentime and they were a product of 60's Gene/Coon not late 80's 'everyone has to be a perfect' Gene.
The inherent weakness of Human characters in post TNG Trek is because they're cast from increasingly demented Gene's utopian mold. The aliens in TNG are much less restricted and they come across as much more Human as a result.
Berman and Braga in ENT explicitly tried to fix the weakness of Human characters without offending old Gene's vision by making it a prequel. They reasoned they could have more recognizably behaving Humans without offending continuity that way. I don't think they pulled it off but I understand the attempt.

nose appliances were a mistake

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mallwalker am gay-tard

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I kinda like move along home...

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Not allowed. Please conform to the group opinion immediately.

I miss the holodeck formats

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Nice dubs but stationstuds don't need repeating digits or groupthink to get along in the world.

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if you were a star would you trek?
post in the thread below your comment

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>phone posts

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Very much agreed. Roddenberry did the series a favor by dying. The Roddenberry Box is well documented and is why I never liked TNG. It was lifeless.

And thank god Berman was busy with VOY, allowing Ira and Ron to do their thing on DS9. That whole show would never have happened if Gene were alive. Right from episode one, where Sisko looked like he was gonna rip Picard's head off, it was different. And didn't TOS cast openly condemn "In The Pale Moon Light?" I coulda swore Takei and Majel openly criticized it.

Trip got to suck face with Padma Lakshmi and Jolene Blalock. So I automatically hate him

Welp, it official...TNG am tard-o :\

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True. One of the big stylistic shifts of Trek has been whole episodes carried by supporting cast. Every TOS episode involves Kirk, Spock, and Bones. The rest got away from it.

It started with late TNG and DS9 took it to the next level. Part of it was the captains wanting out. Both Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew wanted to leave before the shows ended but couldn't get out. So they just did fewer episodes. There were episodes of DS9 where Avery was on screen for all of a minute, like the one where Bashir's secret came out (which was a good episode). I really didn't care for whole episodes centered around Quark, Worf, or O'Brien.

I remember liking the quark stuff in it.

Visiting from Yea Forums to make this a crossover thread. You guys have a lot of colorful arguments for your own personal favorite trek shows. So I ask you, which show had the best games Yea Forums?

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The one that floats above a planet of complete fucking retards.

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When we journey through deep space, I hope we encounter something more than a species of random white people with forehead tattoos.

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I think this belongs on /tg/

Why is season 3 Archer so angry
Season 1-2 was like dad, now he's like angry dad that breaks my toys as a punishment :( I don't like this

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>unnecessary relationships with existing canon characters
I admit I missed that one. What was the relationship?

because Earth was attacked?

He's trying to save his entire planet, give Daddy a chance, will yaz?

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because fuck xindi. thats why

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He was under a lot of stress and people were dying under his command. He just wanted to explore and make alien friends, but they forced him to kill.

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Did Captain Nog procreate before he died? A guy like him could score a human or a vulcan.

Archer is the most badass captain.

Unplugs borg drone and doesn't afraid of anything.

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many times little noggles roam the galaxy

I want to see his half-Bajoran half-siblings from the novels.

Last episode of Picard, Nog was killed by a Dabo girl after he dropped out of starfleet in disgrace and was latinumless

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that pic.

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double tribble (the sequel to trouble)

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>Voyager

What the fuck, I just checked, there are like dozens of novels about DS9. Are some of them worth reading?

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Imagine questioning whether or not non-canon fanfiction novels of a garbage series that doesn't even show a trek through the stars is worth reading and spending your time on....

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So, they're just shitty fan fiction. SG-1 has actually good and legit novels.

>SG-1

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Everything to do with the Vulcans. That's the worst of the retcons.

stitch in time, but there are countless novels for all series

oh. thought it was a relationship like Spock's long lost sister

T'Pau

just not as good as Ds9 dont think many people here have ever said its bad but yeah it cant trump Ds9

Trips confirm. That user probably is Judith Reeves-Stevens

What about her?

Picard is the best trek series because stupid things like characters or story dont get in the way

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>it cant trump Ds9
It can and it does.

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>posting a character that had no idea what manure was

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They're both great shows

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>not knowing what animal shit is means your show is shit
OOF gonna have to yikes brap ya one user a. mouse

I love both DS9 and Voyager. I think DS9 is the better show, sure, but I also think Voyager is incredibly underrated and is peak comfy. Not everything in the world has to be a competition and creating my show vs. your show shit is peak brainlet material.

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Agreed. However, TNG > TOS > DS9 > VOY > ENT
That includes their movies, if it didn't DS9 would be > TOS.

Checked. My thoughts exactly, user. Voyager is peak comfy

TOS=TNG=DS9>VOY=ENT

nah, fuck mallwalkers

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Based Tuvok would frown upon your emotional and illogical opposition to a show's existence.

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That just shows how much DS9 sucks. It even causes Tuvok to have a negative emotional reaction to it.

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Hating ENT is the best litmus test to catch redditors and bugmen. As you can see, this thread is filled with them.

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>story

this is the story of a girl. who cried a river and drowned the whole world.

As good as DS9, better than ENT. Nu Trek doesn't count.

>because you're a droid and I'm a 'groid
Uuhh.. self depricating racism humor much, Guinan?

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yuro hours /trek/ is better, they said

It's the least-good classic Trek, but still a good Trek. I only wish it got a couple more seasons.

star trek sucks

Leeta French Kisses Rom's chocolate starfish and fondles his ridged grape-sized balls every night.

Is the prime directive the dumbest idea in all of Star Trek?

Just watched Homeworld and am wondering how the normally good TNG writers could think this Episode made any sense is beyond me. It’s laughable bad at times.

Sane character asks, “Wasn’t the prime directive made in order to protect lesser cultures? Why are we letting this one go extinct for literally no reason?”

Picard and Troi, “No the prime directive was made in order to protect the Principle of non interference. AKA, the principle of ,we couldn’t be bothered to do anything.”

They butchered it between TOS and TNG. In TOS it was a same guideline instead of some pseudo-religious dogma, and there's even that episode where Kirk points out that it's better to violate the PD to save a species than uphold it and let them go extinct, which Spock agrees is "logical"

The Dubsminion has endured for 2,000 /trek/ threads and will continue to endure long after I overcome another depressed evening

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The prime directive was established to protect the natural processes of evolution and to prevent primitive cultures, which are most often violent, from getting their hands on destructive technologies

ENT is bad, but I doubt anyone hates it. I don't see how it could evoke much of an emotional response in anyone.

>ENT is bad
You have to go back

A CUNT

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>chin up sport, I've got your back

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Miles should have dumped Keiko in favour of Kira once he knocked her up by proxy

>I wake again

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Why does she have human eyebrows?

checked
I think she was played by one.

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nope

You're word are appreciated Captain.

But I am Jem'user. To suffer, is the order of things.

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rumours?

>Garak wants to nuke the Founder planet preemptively while Odo, Sisko and Bashir are on it
>doesn't understand why Worf doesn't want to genocide the founders

Holy shit Garak

She trimmed them to make the humans feel more at home

>It's TNG lite
Exactly this. In fact, they borrow and re-purpose a lot of Next Generation plot lines, the same way Next Generation did with the Original Series.

Why didn't she trim her ears too then?

Oomox

That would actually be hilarious.
>Vulcans want to infiltrate the human whatever
>trust but verify, ya know
>nobody quite has Bashir levels of radical plastic surgery at this point in the timeline
>so they just crop their ears like a pitbull, wax their eyebrows and get a haircut
>highly skilled Vulcan secret agent is struggling mightily to introduce small talk and facial expressions into his conversational style to avoid detection
"Hi! Dave."
*big smile*
"Wow. Chili! My favorite."
*rubs stomach*
"I am so hungry I could ingest an equine."
*raises eyebrows, drops jaw, emits laugh*
>Y-yeah man, haha, where'd you say you're from again?
"California!"

reddit elves that are full of themselves

I actually don't like star trek.

Nobody does.
We're all just pretending.

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god her ass is so cute bros

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Objectively /trek/ is ded every night until the call is made

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>reddit elves

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based sinclair

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>it's a DS9 turns into medical program as every issue starts with 'X to Bashir/Infirmary'

>same thread from last night

I think a group of spammers/shitposters got banned or something. There's a conspicuous lack of TOS cosplay thots, off-topic flooding, and their other usual calling cards.

nah those people are Picard fags, so they give up until the next episode is out.

Maybe they thought better of it and stopped?

I'm at work right now and my managers keep asking me to help then but it keeps turning out to be a ruse to burn snake leaf and snort beetle snuff

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NEW

>VELOUR FOG

It actually exists.

How did this meme get started? As other anons already mentioned ITT, the Vulcans were portrayed that way since at least as early as DS9

he's wearing it ironically

lmao the fuck is that outfit?

based