So how would you like a ultimate marvel line of comics but with dc. With all the things that we know about ultimate marvel, where it failed and where it good it right, what can we learn?
Me personally I would start the universe with a justice society of America book set in world war 2. The golden age heroes setting the example for the future.
I wish both would launch an ultimate universe so I could have one easy to follow line that doesn't get fucked by main line bullshit
Earth One already exists
No amount of reboots/do-overs will recover the DC Universe now. It's just been done too much, like an aging actress who's had too much plastic surgery. It will never be good looking again.
>ike an aging actress who's had too much plastic surgery. It will never be good looking again.
You only say that because we're in the thick of it. If (and I doubt it will ever happen) DC ever gets back on track, it could certainly leave this as a little dark era in its long history of publication.
>one easy to follow line that doesn't get fucked by main line bullshit
It's going to get fucked as writers replace the old ones along with shared universe shit within the line. Just like Ultimate Marvel.
DC has been trying to reform and save itself for decades now. It had a brief period where Brits were doing indie style stuff, a lot of it under a subset of DC, but otherwise it's been mediocre at best and mind-numbingly awful at worst.
No one has interesting stories anymore, it's stale garbage that's been recycled and resold too many times.
Yes but it’s shit. And forgotten
How did this fell apart? Was it an actual success?
Superman is both shamelessly ripping off Planet Hulk and raising a faggot son.
There is no hope.
Earth One is a huge failure. Nobody could get shit out in a reasonable time and some comics announced at launch are still not out.
The Ultimate line is very much a time capsule of the early 2000s, so no matter what you did, the tone would have to reflect that fact.
>So how would you like a ultimate marvel line of comics but with dc
I liked Ultimates and I wouldn't mind it at all if DC pulled something similar - except doing it now, when their main universe is in an unreadable state, would be tantamount to rats leaving the sinking ship. First make sure your main universe functions and has an internal logic to it and people enjoy reading and thinking about it and then you can start doing your weird experiments.
I still find it hilarious that the ultimate line was started to give new readers a fresh start and not have to worry about having to read dozens of books to understand a story but then proceeded to do that in less than a quarter if the time it took for it to happen to the main line books
Creating another parallel Earth never solved anything in the past for DC, not sure why anyone believed it would solve problems for them now.
It just became an incoherent dumping ground for every fucked up idea management wouldn't let fly in the 616. It was quickly becoming a mean-spirited parody of Marvel comics.
And Planet Hulk is an echo of the Superman in Exile story from the late 80s where Superman was on Warworld fighting in gladiator style matches. Comics are cyclical ... nothing is original.
>How did this fell apart? Was it an actual success?
no because despite having the earth 1 logo none of the books was in any way despite each of their own book ending on their own version of the apocalypse. It also the epidemy of what wrong with making an ultimate DC the need to make it "Grounded and realistic"
"What if we made batman realistic"?
then they make him into bumbling moron for the majority of the book
"What if we made superman realistic"
then they just make him a super privilege moody douche who let people die because he indecisive
"what if green lantern was realistic?"
then it becomes a generic fucking sci-fi story
grounded doesn't equal interesting or fun
there no interesting take on any of the character or action scene or visual because they're limited in the fucking "realistic" take on these character that was just masquerading to be movie pitches in the future
sir i think your lost go bitch on the respected thread
It also just turned into literally everything it was supposed to avoid and everything that sucks about modern comics. Too much shit to follow with over a decade of continuity, messy deaths and revivals, gimmick events, legacy characters everywhere, and everyone who wasn't one of the big names was just cannon fodder for retarded writers who don't know how to create drama without a body count.
What was it like for comics culture when Ultimate Marvel debuted and/or was the Hot New Thing?
The Marvel Adventures line did it better than they could. Mainly because all the stories were self-contained in that run with no crossover between the books.
The books sold badly (no one wants to buy OGNs no matter how much trade waiters screech) and were horribly horribly written. Also, it was clear that NO ONE was working together to create a coherent universe and worse, you had a LOT of crack ideas such as what was published in the Batman and Wonder Woman graphic novels that were the writers doing whatever they want because they could.
See also how the All Star line flopped HARD: All Star Superman and All Star B&R were their own separate universe and how you had shit like the Justice mini by Alex Ross being pitched as All Star JLA and getting denied the branding on the project because DiDio didn't want Jim Krueger anywhere near the project if it was going to be part of the All Star line.
>you had a LOT of crack ideas such as what was published in the Batman and Wonder Woman graphic novels that were the writers doing whatever they want because they could.
But I thought people liked Batman being crazy because of his bipolar mother and the amazons ruling men through loving submission re-education camps.
I feel like you could but if I were to do it id set some ground rules.
>No characters being revived unless its an illusion or zombie shit
>Characters either heroes or villains have a single character arc, no retcons or changes.
>A writer has to stay on that book, no fill ins or if a new writer is to be on that book it has to be picked by the last writer.
>No characters being revived unless its an illusion or zombie shit
I think it's more important to establish that writers can't just kill characters off or use B-listers as cannon fodder without damn good reason and a decent story first before we start throwing a "dead is dead" rule around.
Yeah it is a crime that bendis was the one who was successful and that Tobins run was forgotten.
It's kind of a double edged sword
I feel like keeping hard rules for these series would be good to keep writers from making one villain good in one story arc and then they become batshit insane again, same for heroes. I think giving the most prominent writers for said heroes from the last 10-20 years would help for the beginning of a run.
>Characters either heroes or villains have a single character arc, no retcons or changes.
this couldn't save Ultimate, I remember reading Ultimate F4 way back and the fact that the Status Quo for them changed from literally one arc to the other made everything feel like a disjointed mess, Ultimate felt like it has less of an editorial department than the mainline books, and BOY do the mainline books have a shitty editorial
Another Rule. NO EVIL SUPERMAN. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Would love something like it
Yeah but too bad they don’t get shit out on time.
All you would need is someone who knew what they were doing, who would keep the editorial department on a short leash, and who the readers trusted.
Someone like...
Yeah but here's the thing: DC completely dropped the fucking ball on this. Like, this shit dropped nearly 10 years ago and yet, no one really cares that much about the whole thing.
Basically this. I'm probably treading thin waters here but honestly, 'grounded' doesn't even necessarily mean, 'grim and takes itself too seriously'. I mean, Superman: EO could've had a more 'grounded' (to some extent) Superman that was basically Golden Age Superman but with more supervillains, with also a sense of fun and wonder too, but they didn't do that, they made him brooding and boring.
Anyway, how I would do it:
>Superman
Basically take the nu52 idea of having Superman be Golden Age-style for the first few years that he's Superman, taking on corrupt politicians and so on, with his power level increasing and slowly actual supervillains start popping up. And then I modernize some classic Superman bad guys, like Brainiac or Toyman, but without completely changing them up.
Also modernize the Daily Planet as well. Maybe Lois has a podcast or something too.
>Batman
Honestly not sure, never really put much thought into that.
>Wonder Woman
Basically the Earth One version, honestly.
You know DC it´s only going to put some effort in Batman and that´s it
You just reminded me of a problem I have with how some people defend The Ultimates, where it's like "it's okay Millar wrote Hank as a wifebeater and Hulk as a cannibal, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT."
I thought the point of the Ultimate line was to have a line that best represents the characters to the non-comics readers? Ultimates is an entertaining read, but as a book to get people interested in Avengers, it's a failure because a lot of the characters are at their worst in it.
is only partly right
Superman Earth One's first volume was a sales success and I think Batman Earth One's was as well. The problem is that there were long delays between, plus the New 52 Launch, and people started forgetting about them.
I will say this: At least most of the Earth One books were memorable, for good and bad. I can't remember a damn thing about Marvel's Season One OGNs. They looked unremarkable.
People forget this but at the time the industry was fucking worried. Comic sales were down across the board (to the point where only Uncanny X-Men and X-Men were consistently doing 100,000 or more). When the Ultimate line was announced everybody had skepticism about it because it sounded like it would become another failed line. Warren Ellis wrote up a column where he said he didn't believe it would work out, even though he was friends with Bendis and Millar. The recent Spider-Man revamp/relaunch by Byrne was badly received.
Then when Ultimate Spider-Man #1 hit the stands nearly everyone praised it for being fresh and new. The book was hard to get after the first week and sold out everywhere, and a year in the early issues were going for like $20 or more with #1 going for like at least $100
>(to the point where only Uncanny X-Men and X-Men were consistently doing 100,000 or more
Weird to think now 100k is top of the charts numbers. Comics truly are now an IP farm
>How did this fell apart?
Wonder Woman was decent in story and had fucking fantastic cheesecake art but then did the most apocalyptic psychotic woke shit possible in the 3rd volume ruining it forever (they did a feminist take on injustice with misandristic mass brain washing and presented it as a good thing)
I think that's a better rule
"dead is dead" is a useless rule when you have writers who keep trying to kill characters off to shock the reader, and they have to earn the right to do so.
they already have wildstorm, just work with that
>Putting out an entire graphic novel takes time
Wow, no way!
>that NO ONE was working together to create a coherent universe
Earth One waa never intended to do that. It was meant to he a banner for graphic novel line done by top name creators who would be doing "grounded" origin stories for A-list characters. I.e. perfect casual reader bait. And they were successful because the books sold well.
That's how media was in the early 00s. Millar wanted Ultimates to be tacticool and edgy incarnated, because it is what used to be hip back then and what could have gotten older readers interested. Read it, and its super dated with all the references to G.W. Bush, Freddie Prinze Jr., Shannon Elizabeth and early 00s aesthetics. It was Millar copying the Authority and trying to make it look as if it were a movie because Ellis and Hitch had come with the "cinematic" approach years before.
It was supposed to summon edgelords to buy it, and it worked.
>I thought the point of the Ultimate line was to have a line that best represents the characters to the non-comics readers
No, that was never the point. That's your own projections. Part of the mission statement was to make a modern Hollywood blockbuster take on the Avengers, as if it was a movie in comic book form. It was essentially a quasi movie adaptation pitch. That's why they aren't even fucking called the Avengers in the comic. That is why Cap is very much a conservative jock asshole from the 40s. That is why Hulk is a proper uncontrollable monster. That is why Hank Pym is a wifebeater with insecurity issues who gets his ass handed to him by Cap and then is fired. Why Fury is now SLJ in a turtleneck. Etc. etc. etc.
Looks boring lmao
>Goth skank Raven
Now I am interested.
>Raven but goth slut
>Donna but slut
>Dick but bdsm
>Implying Planet Hulk was a particularly original story to begin with
They should do it