Why do you want cartoon characters to kill their villains?

you mean there's not going to be a SU episode titled "The Hague"?

Because they are evil and deserve to die.

Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.

No? They never glossed over what the Diamonds did. If they had the Crystal Gems would've never been formed in the first place. Now the empire is completely dismantled. That's a win.

>Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.
No it isn't. I'm in charge of what's moral, everyone is. In states of extreme disagreement, we attempt to kill each other and whoever wins gets to say they're right.

White Diamond is an evil bitch and she deserves to die.

Might makes Right is dumb as shit. Did Superman vs the Elite teach you nothing?

i just want this hideous thing to die

It's not might makes right. White Diamond is still evil even if she wins, she just gets to SAY she's not evil. But she lost so she should have just died, letting her life is an endorsement of her evil behavior.

Maybe not kill, but I feel like there might have been a more deserving resolution than bringing the genocidal alien dictator to your pool party.

The "pool party" was so they could reverse the damage they did. You guys did actually watch the show right?

Gems don't die, if they get shattered their remains can still move (and feel).
Also you can't shatter a Diamond, since they're OP as fuck and basically condeming their entire species to doom (as gems are originally created from all 4 diamonds)

Don't care, fuck her. Gems are an unsustainable species that can only persist by killing whatever ecosystem they infest. An evolutionary dead end that should have ceased a long time ago. Shatter her, grind the shards to dust and scatter the dust across the universe.

It wasn't a real court and they never had any chance. But appearances needed to be kept.

Not anymore. The empire is dismantled and they most likely have an alternate method of reproduction like harnessing wind or kinetic energy.

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You can just pop her body and put her gem in space gem prison. Superman does it all the time to kryptonite baddies.

If they were able to do that, using the stupid ass injectors was retarded and they should never have done it.

I don´t want them to kill them, but I want actual fucking consequences for their actions instead of having them get away with it just because they turned good.

I don't. I want them to suffer and be responsible for their villainy.

Why would non-organics utilize methods used by organics without actually learning about organics. That doesn't make sense.

Every action cartoon should end in the villain broken and impaled on the protagonist's weapon, wheezing through his chest

>They never glossed over what the Diamonds did.
Yeah, nothing besides planet conquering, world destruction, forcing an entire race to behave one way, killing those who disobeyed or were born wrong, and the disturbing fusion experiments that lead to the cluster.
Nothing evil at all.

I don't. I want Villains to have deeply held convictions. Now this sometimes leads to a resolution requiring death due to the protagonist and antagonist having incomparable or conflicting philosophical or moral ideals. However it can be just as satisfying for the Antagonist to "Come to the Light" due to the virtuous actions and positive behaviors of the Hero. It took Zuko two seasons to join the Avatar. His ultimate goal of restoring his honor remaind, but his views on how that would come about were molded by Aang's benevolent actions, making one of the best redemption arcs in cartoon history. (Not a crazy amount of competition, but still). White Diamond was an Immortal God Empress who abandoned a highly structured culture developed over countless millennia after a single interaction with a spunky teenager and a blush over the course of an afternoon. White Diamond's convictions apparently couldn't handle the intense, philosophically shattering conditions of a prom date.

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To be fair, gems are just AI's following routine. It's not as if they question whether they should be doing what they do (or if they do it's in whispers that the higher ups will never hear).

>Might makes Right is dumb as shit.
Its still how all foreign policy goes pretty much. Societies from the inside are democratic but relations between different societies are not.

>We can jet across the universe in fucking space ships but spinning a magnet in a copper coil is too advanced for us.

Literally all of this was covered in the show.
>Buh buh they didn't tell the Diamonds to stop or that it was bad!
They destroyed their entire empire. I don't give a shit if they didn't turn to the screen and give me a recap of what they'd done. Kids understand that it was wrong, so why don't you?

When the antagonist is giving you a truce out of love and not because you have any real bargaining power, no.

People just want justice to measure the actions taken by the villain. Dictators, however, get immediately pardoned a lot more than most other cartoon villains. So, you can see the frustration in people.

>Destroying an empire is enough
I wonder why an user on Yea Forums would take that position.

>Did Superman vs the Elite teach you nothing?
It taught that Might Makes Right. Superman pretty won the moral argument by scaring the shit out of the elites with his overbearing power.

That’s...really underrated.
I like this.
Surely there’s a bunch of Law & Order episodes to draw inspiration from.

I liked the one with Robin Williams

>Law and Order: Steven Universe
>At the offices of Zircon and Zircon.

FUND IT.

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Yeah, a kangaroo court.
Not a very heroic thing for your main characters to do, and if it goes really wrong you end pulling a sekai yori where you make the villain look like he was right all along.

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No, he showed the world that might makes right is a scary ass thing, when he used just his might instead of his moral compass

because in the real world I have to do a lot of shit I don't like and I get angry when things are easy for others even if they are cartoons. I also can't live down one joke I made 10 years ago but these fools get forgiven for genocides

None of this was covered in the show. The only thing "covered" was what they did with the corruption bomb and their family issues.
This show just let them get away with all the crimes they did because they reunited as a family, and I guess personal issues make all the atrocities they commited to other people "ok". They did not cover the consequences for making the cluster, or the fusion experiments.
>They destroyed their entire empire.
Doesn´t count if the diamonds themselves are helping him. It´s not "destroying" if you convince the dictators to change their ways. If anything, Steven is helping them out.

villain in the sekai yori was not right and he deserved his punishment for doing lobotomy kids and his own people, with some forced breeding mixed in.

People keep using the word forgiven when this never comes up in the show at all. If their way of life was tolerated these genocides would still be ongoing, but the entire concept of the Diamond's rule is done. They weren't forgiven, they just weren't punished harshly. Conceding defeat and then working to fix things probably had a lot to do with it.

Steven is helping them out do what exactly? Continue to oppress gems? Destroying other worlds? Can you show me where that happens exactly?

>Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.
Things that don't have same morality might deserve to die because of that.

This. White Diamond was introduced at the last minute and redeemed in 2 episodes.
>But she was hinted at since the beginning
Yeah, but she never did anything until the very fucking end. WD has two appearances in all 5 seasons of Steven Universe and is one of the most underdeveloped character in the entire show.

Im happy that we at least moved away from "and then the antagonist threw himself off the cliff or accidentally killed himself"

my post is not limited to this one show.

Blame CN for not giving them a renewal into late into the fifth season. You can see where the pacing goes from "hum de dum, business as usual" to "WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA GOTTA SPEED UP".

Please forgive my autism then.

*until late into the fifth season

It´s clear by the new SU movie trailer that after the change of heart, the diamonds are restructuring their empire to fit what Steven taught them. But since they are new at not being genocidal maniacs, they have to ask Steven for help. He´s aiding them in the changes to the homeworld empire.
Steven didn´t "destroy" anything.

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Except for the genocidal tendencies, the awful experiments etc.

Because it makes the heroes look weak and incompetent if they just keep letting the villain go free to keep murdering others, in the case of Batman.

In the case of Steven Universe it's because the show is boring if you know the conflict will be resolved with characters just standing around talking, and probably crying. The premise was great for an action series and it chooses to be anything but one.

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>They weren't forgiven, they just weren't punished harshly.
Exactly the fucking problem. There are no consequences for their actions, and there never will be. And that´s really frustrating given that before the last episode of S5, the show tried it´s best to paint them as really evil people.

Just because they stopped now it doesn´t mean they didn´t do those things beforehand.
It´s like if Kim Jong Un suddenly woke up one morning and changed his entire rule from a horrible dictatorship to a benevolent democracy. It´s good that he did that, and his people will now be happy, but that doesn´t mean the world has to forgive all the atrocities he has committed before. If not execution, at the very least he would have to serve a life sentence in jail. He wouldn´t just get away with it.
I´m not saying SU should get political like that, but it´s an example. The Diamonds should suffer some punishment for what they did before. Not murder, but exile, or SOMETHING.

The consequences are that they're not doing evil anymore. What more do you want than that? Because you can't kill them and bubbling them is pointless. These aren't humans you can just murder and move on from.

Because she's an evil space dictator and deserves to be killed

No TV for one thousand years.

>And every other instance of "evil" in the series

You're as naive as S1 Steven. The theme song even reflects this as he sings about good and evil in the beginning and then it's completely gone by the end as he actually learns something. The Diamonds aren't evil, they don't have any concept or good or evil and do what they're supposed to do. Hitler chose to murder Jews, White Diamond and the others never had a choice.

What do you mean white diamond never had a choice?! She chose to be a genocidal maniac. That was HER choice, nobody forced her to, and she stopped doing it when she didn´t want to be like that anymore. If anything, every other villain in the show fits that example. Jasper, Aquamarine, Yellow, and Blue never had a choice. But White did because she ruled them all.
This isn´t the prince of egypt where WD had an abusive dad that made her the way she is. She was probably the first gem in existence and chose her way of life.

>What more do you want than that?
Punishment of some kind. As I mentioned, exile could be pretty good. Send them to an uncharted galaxy where they will stay for thousands of years and never return. If anything they could do some good by starting a new empire again, except this time a benevolent one. That way, even while they´re being punished they are doing good things.
At the very fucking least force them to work hard on a way to cure the cluster and the fused experiments who are still like that and have received no help.

>Maniac
Nope. No emotion went into what fueled their decisions, that's why they're opposed to the Crystal Gems. Diamonds take the "AI's doing what they're programmed to do" thing to the logical conclusion. You're ignoring her dialogue too.

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We don't know what happened in the two years between CYM and the movie. For all we know the cluster's been removed from the Earth and freed. It is weird how we don't see it just punching the gem into the sun during the trailer.

Steven Universe isnt that kind of show.

Alright, maybe she wasn´t a maniac, but she still had a choice on doing the things they do.
The show never once mentioned the gems where AI programmed by some evil aliens. They´re a race of aliens who just exist.
Also, of course, emotion is what fueled Blue and Yellow´s decision. Blue is constantly sad and Yellow is constantly angry. They made the war on earth and corruption bomb because they where angry Pink "died"

Yellow isn't always angry, she's as logical as Peridot made her out to be.

No, she isn´t! That´s the point of the ending of peridot´s arc. The leader she thought was super logical and only would act out of reason acted out of emotion. Out of her hatred for a planet that "took" her sister away from her. Yellow certainly tries to be logical but fails constantly. This has been shown in every single appearance she´s had. That´s her character flaw.
At this point, you´re just ignoring every aspect of the show that doesn´t help your arguments.

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If they've changed their minds and won't do the bad stuff again, there's no need to punish them.

Dumbass

Yes, but those emotions are REPRESSED which is the point I'm trying to make. Peridot was right and it shows why Homeworld is so toxic.

Peridot wasn´t right because she thought that was what Yellow was naturally and wasn´t repressing anything. Peridot wasn´t right, that´s the fucking point of the S2 finale.
You´re not a logical leader if you fail to repress your emotions.

I just believe in spreading love, not hate. Love and kindness and friendship and stuff. Just because someone did something bad doesn't mean you gotta do something bad right back to "teach them a lesson" in order to satisfy your own desire for revenge and "comeuppance".

(Which is kind of the point of SU which doesn't run on real-world logic)

Forget real-world logic. The real world should run on love, too! People should stop holding onto so much hate and being at each other's throats! Why can't we all just get along and be friends?!

Shut up nerd

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It would be nice, but it's not realistic. Shows like SU are a nice escapist fantasy which is why it's so popular. It doesn't try to be edgy or mean-spirited but the concept of heroic deeds is still there. Standing up for yourself and your beliefs, doing your best and making the world a better place. Moving forward with an open heart. Etc etc.

>Shatter her, grind the shards to dust and scatter the dust across the universe.
That still doesn't kill the Gem. It just makes them more dangerous. Like that thing in Together Breakfast.

Because justice is still a virtue.

Justice for the dead? I'd rather focus on the living. All the gems are free now. Mission accomplished.

Justice isn't killing your enemy. Justice requires a proper trial before killing your enemy.

Not on a battlefield.

"No such thing as a good war, kiddo"

Wars aren't good, but there are good reasons to wage it.

No argument there.

fucking hippies and their feel good bullshit.

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It's more realistic, like in real life where first world countries kill their worst criminals. ... wait

>they never had any chance

Turns out the unrepentent leaders of a bunch of genocidal maniacs, aware were unlikely to beat the charges of "being complicit in managing a genocide."

Whod've thunk it?

>Eons-old godlike beings need the help of a 15 year old to run their interstellar empire

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Most beings go senile by the end of a century.

Gems are autistic. Pearl didn't change in 5000+ years until Steven came along and helped her to mingle with humans and become more social.

Certainly not SU.

Because she is a thousands of years old Hitler.

Yes. What it taught us was that Superman was stronger so he called the shots.

>Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.

That's what Steven does though...Like most of the show is basically forcing gems into accepting human morals.

People who want this are crazy.

There's something to be said about a character's growth and development if they take the experience fighting said villains and seeing the consequence of their old outlook and taking more pragmatic action because of it.

Why not IT’S FOR JUSTICE

Nah sounds dumb inb4 it becomes a meme opinion it totally gonna be

No. Locking them up is an effective response.

They don't have to kill their villains. I expect a fight and then some sort of punishment after they lose, not complete acquittal

Horrible

It's only more "pragmatic" because the Diamonds are poorly written villains.

Gems make that choice, it's not forced on them. Attempting to make real life judgements based on the Diamond's actions (and then going so far as to call the crew fascist sympathizers for redeeming them and giving them actual personalities) is retarded and I will always stand by that.

They're not villains at all. Comparing them to mustache-twirling Bond bad guys doesn't work. They're more like ants.

didn't White Diamond dance with everyone at the end though?

Lol wut. There was no dance at the end of CYM. She was autistic throughout the whole thing and barely held it together.

To be honest court episode in a kids show would be pretty boring for the target audience.

Because Yea Forums is insecure about its masculinity and when they see a male character who doesn't want to use violent or do "manly" stuff they feel confused and threatened and descend into autistic hysterics.

You could make it work, but it'd have to be either over the top or a complete farce like in Billy and Mandy for it to work.

No-kill rule is so unbelievably retarded and cruel. No, it’s not a moral thing stop that shit. The moral and upstanding thing to do would be to actually end their life. If you don’t kill a villains and they end up decimating another village their blood is on your hands.

You have given up your right to live once you have taken the life of many.

I think most if most people are told '

>hey there's these dictators that have killed countless planets, keep a oppressive regime, don't give a shit about organics, and kill organics and their own kind alike for disobeying them

Their first response would not be to just talk to them and accept an apology. If that happened irl it would end up substantially more violently if that was the go-to plan.

>Kill organics
No, organics die as a result of colonization. That's very different from premeditated murder.

This is dumb as fuck. Do you want actual legal proceedings in a fucking kids show? Should the teen titans read Slade his Miranda rights?

Your original point was that it was illogical to judge AI by human standards but the show itself does just that.

Slade is a mercenary right? Killing because you were paid and have no attachment is better than killing due to racism.

They still die because of the gems.

Real life human standards, not cartoony happy feelsy standards.

We do get that from time to time, but to do it every time would be massively time consuming.

imagine believing this.
somebody dies either way moron.

because after watching a show where the bad guy ruins the life of everyone and hurt inocents without a shred of remorse, its feels fucking good when he gets defeated, nobody fucking sane wants the bastard to redeem himself.

>Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.
>Real life human standards, not cartoony happy feelsy standards.
>Implying that they aren't a form of human standards

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>Apply human morals to alien AI's is retarded.
its only retarded when they are minding their own business and not hurting you.
self preservation?

Ignoring a show's internal logic of "everyone is capable of redemption regardless of their actions" because you don't agree with it is stupid. That's the point. Bad faith takes aren't proper criticism and certainly isnt critical thinking.

>'Why can't we all just get along and be friends?!'
>Saying this on Yea Forums

doyouknowwhereyouare.jpg

It is premeditated murder. They are very well aware of what happens to organics during the process. They still do it. Just because it is not the main purpose of the act it is still premeditated.

user, murder is a direct action. It's manslaughter.

No. It`s murder. The people that die die because of their direct actions.

If you blow up a bank that you know is filled with people just because you want the money inside it you still go to court for murder even if you just wanted the money in the vault.

I just want follow through on what they set up.
For example, Star killed Toffee but that was dog shit because he was established as this sly, Machiavellian villain who just gets unga bunga blasted into nothing.

SU set up the Diamonds as absolute dictators who bust planets in their spare time. Corruption, cluster experiments, the attempted destruction of Earth, fusion resulting in shattering, etc. But then Steven defeats them by saying he's Pink Diamond (no, he isn't) and going "No you". And then when they find out he isn't Pink, they like him anyway and just go "yeah, sorry, we didn't know that would happen" about all their experiments.

To this day, I can't even remember what Yellow Diamonds excuse about the cluster/shard experiments was.

The closest we get is Garnet guessing that it was punishment for the rebellion. And as for the follow-up, the CG's were formed to rebel and save Earth with the possibility of later toppling the Diamonds. The empire is done and they succeeded.

Here's the thing...villains are CONSTANTLY breaking out of prison. This is more pronounced in comics rather than cartoons, but any depictions of a justice system is laughable, specifically because we, the viewers, know that no matter what the sentence is, the bad guy is going to escape to cause havoc again.

For most cartoons, the status quo must be maintained above all costs. But if you do want that final solution, death is often the only option left, especially if you've already had multiple episodes showing that the regular system won't contain the villain.

I think the idea of reforming a villain isn't a bad one, but it isn't always feasible. Ironically, Steven Universe does have a proven method of imprisoning bad Gems indefinitely, unlike most cartoons, but they still elect to reform instead.

Some of the turnarounds in Steven Universe are by far too quick, but hardly any cartoon out there is doing the same thing. It's laudable for their commitment to the ideal, if nothing else.

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That might makes right. Superman used his might to stop them all. All superheroes use their might to stop the badguys. Cape comics are nothing but might make right stories.

Most of them do exactly this

For now, until another rise up and the cycle starts again. Has history taught you nothing user?

Diamond Days definitely should have had a few more episodes before they were reformed. I've read a lot of the reviews and the most positive ones still mention the rushed pacing.

One of the best episodes in the show despite that IMO

They have no reason to go back to the old model once they have one that's painless and most likely is faster.

No, they didn't. The useful ones were taken to America through Project Paperclip and the like while the rest wouldn't be found innocent by any court because there would be public backlash.
With that said the legal system is shit. In America you can get away with anything by pleading insanity while in Europe laws are made to keep people out because prisons are few and politicians would look bad if they made more.

Nope, she choose to go maverick. Just like Ultron and other advance A.I made that choice. Retire her.

Wind blows, rain falls. The strong prey on the weak. Rules of nature.

>it was punishment for rebellion
Yes, and? How is that an excuse?
>this evil dictator committed terrible atrocities on her own people
>yeah well they didn't follow orders
This is what I mean by follow-through. They set up spooky, zombie gem body horror abominations, so terrible that they give Garnet (a typically cool, strong character) a nervous breakdown. So now they got this nice and impactful scene and a horrible new enemy courtesy of Yellow Diamond. And what was the resolution?
The Cluster Bubble, and I guess just forgetting about it.

IN THE MUD AND SINKING DEEPER
INTO A PEACEFUL LIFE

The cluster was mentioned many times, was brought back in Reunited and we see other mini-clusters in CYM. You either have a very selective memory or you're cherrypicking here. Of course Garnet hates it, she's a fusion and those are Crystal Gems fused together. It's not presented as a positive thing.

AND IT WILL COME
LIKE A FLOOD PAIN POURING DOWN ON ME

I feel like either you're retarded or just not reading what I've been posting.

>Bad thing bad, why they no say bad thing bad like me?
I get what you're saying, but I don't care since the show doesn't treat it as a positive action. At worst you're complaining because it's not addressed when it's all part and parcel of the Diamond's toxic nature and the reason why they had to be stopped. And they were stopped. So there's no longer an issue of this happening to gets every again.

*gems

No you don't get what I'm saying, you are confirmed retarded.

OK user you have a nice day now.

I love how they can't even into scale in the movie.
The hand ships of the diamonds are smaller then the one Peridot was given.
(Not to mention that they shouldn't have these ships and in this design when they were from the ancient times with the other architecture)

Tales of absolute morality and objective ethics.
> invite a person to come play a game with you
> invited person doesn't even bother playing, just intentionally makes everyone feel like shit
> legitimately, for no reason other than they can make you feel like shit by any means at their disposal, including physical assaults
saying it's not reasonable to just be rid of this hypothetical destructive idiot is just simply self-destructive.

> Everyone ages months to years as witnesses and evidence and proceedings happen
> Mistrial! Do it all over, and...
No.
The motivation behind a coutroom drama is that characters treat the proceedings like a puzzle which can actually be solved within the courtroom, and that the innocent are always released and the guilty are always convicted or otherwise recieve their punishment.

In reality trying to pull TV courtroom drama antics will just get you contempt of court and jail time (even if your reason for being in the court in the first place wasn't legal)
Courtrooms are slow meat grinders that anyone can be thrown into at any time for any reason. Sometimes the torsion blades of the law are dull, or too far apart, or are too sharp and too close together... But the turning handle is always slowly moving and if you're inside of it, you'll be turned to a human meat slurry eventually. "Guilty" or "not guilty" there is ABSOLUTELY NO "Innocent" uttered in a courtroom. Because it IS a grinder and it WILL destroy you, even if only through means of time and finances.

If a courtroom drama were to unfold truthfully in a cartoon, the character involved would be mentally and financially destroyed even if "not guilty" with every other character treating them differently after, and the show would be permanently changed with a very sour note even if things improved.

Frankly, killing the villain outside of the "justice" system is actually a mercy if they were legitimate villains.