I couldn't save those people...

Isn't that quote abiut Truman from something he wrote as a child?

PEACE BUILT ON A LIE IS FRAGILE. The fact that not many can grasp this is why the plan ultimately fail.

It's not the same thing at all lol. The fact Moore framed it as such is the reason this story should belong to Snyder for all time instead.

First of all everyone knows that the true Messiah is Steven Universe, so jot that down, secondly, you’re exactly the kind of guy he avoids

Did you miss the part where Ozzy's plan was fucking retarded, and ultimately going to be unraveled thus making those lives lost completely meaningless?

>this is why the plan ultimately fail.
It did?

yes because bombing a military target after years of war to prevent further bloodshed, and nuking the one of the largest cities in the world is the same thing.
super genius probably couldve found an alternative.

If all it takes is one journal that belonged to a madman to burn everything to the ground then it wasn't a very good plan, was it?

Are you retarded

Because those weren't American

objectivist and patriot-pilled

That's not even the main fucking issue with the false comparison.
America and Japan were at war. After America nuked Japan, they didn't try convincing the entire Japanese population it was actually the Soviet Union that nuked them, or that it was the Emperor that bombed their own people to boost morale, or any such fucking bullshit. Truman owned that decision and so did America.
Moore in his infinite wisdom decided in a critical moment that he couldn't let Rorschach, this punching bag he'd designed to cast scorn at Ditko and uncompromising idealism, just go out with dignity. He had to make him have no concept of responsibility and see himself in a contradiction of terms that are nonexistant in this scenario. Because Moore is not an idealist and never will be. Moore is a fucking hack, and I wish Watchmen had been written by a different writer altogether.

I'm surprised that there are so many on Yea Forums that think Raw Shark isn't an example of what's wrong with rigid ideology.
You're supposed to think he's all fucked up and wrong about pretty much everything.

He'd kill a guy for jay walking or littering.

Think of the sacrifice of all those Jews who died to show us the Nazi's were bad.

Veidt was a doomsayer. Rorschach might have been a misanthrope but he was right to reveal the truth.

The Holocaust showed us how evil conservatives are. Unfortunately, we're forgetting the message.

He's not supposed to be right, user.

>he was right to reveal the truth.
No he wasn't.
Ozy did a bad thing and should have been stopped but once it's done, the right thing to do is to let it work for as long as possible

You're right, we should sacrifice all non-whites to make a pure and unified race for everlasting peace

It's hilariously naive to believe people wouldn't attack each other anymore out of fear of some vague alien attack, especially when the major city of their hated rival was the target.

Compromising your sense of right and wrong is unironically the most bluepilled thing you could do if the world is about to end.

>You're supposed to think he's all fucked up and wrong about pretty much everything.
Kinda hard to make him sound crazy when you write it so he was right about everything.

youre right but the historical inaccuracy just bothered me more than the rest.

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No man it's easy. Just retroactively blame the readers for not getting it and that comics are all bad and anyone over the age of 13 who still touches picture books about costume guys should just kill themselves.

That’s because I’m order to survive and grow you have to have rules and stick to them. Yes adaptation and compromise are important, but not nearly so as brushing ur teeth and exercising and eating the right foods. Flexibility comes after all that.

>behind your feelings are nothing, but behind every principle is a promise

He constantly criticized people for their vices and weaknesses, and he can't even come to grips that he was just like everyone else and breaks ranks with his own morals when it suited him.

What does it matter if it was? He never doubled back on that position on his adult.

It's something that Rohrscach's nut huggers can't ever dispute properly. Fucking own up to your own principles, and if you can't do that because the going gets tough, fuck off of your high horse and shut up when hard decisions must be made.

>Truman owned that decision and so did America.

It's not a false comparison, dickwipe, the world was on the brink of nuclear war, that's what the panels with the war room with Nixon and his staff were supposed to show. One of the reasons put forward about the use of the bomb was to prevent an even greater loss of life in a full on invasion of Japan. Veidt went in with the full intention of attempting to stave off a greater loss of life that would have been possible if he hadn't enacted his plan. Being open about it or not has nothing to fucking to do with it, because it would have made the entire fucking point of the plan, getting both sides to put aside their differences to join against a greater threat, completely fucking pointless.

Those lives lost would be meaningless if humanity was erased in a nuclear war. If the scandal emerged after years of peace and the easing of nuclear tensions it wouldn't have been a total waste.

What was he right about?
There was no conspiracy to kill off masked heroes. It was just the Comedian that had to go.
His paranoia led to Veidt but it was a coincidence, not good detective work.

does he ever do anything like killing a guy for something small it seems like all of the people he kills at least had something coming.

>What does it matter if it was? He never doubled back on that position on his adult.
>as an adult*

Fuck it, I need sleep.

Sure but Rorschach had zero adaptation or compromise. That was the point of his character. He's supposed to show how ridiculous black and white morality characters (e.g. Batman) are.

Regardless or not if the ruse was ever revealed, wars are inevitable. Furthermore, you're a fool if you think nations wouldn't be fucking pissed, and target one another in the aftermath. People love to point fingers. I don't think Rorschach was right to reveal it, the damage was done, but the plant was stupid from the start.

It is a false comparison and the fact you can only measure the situation in terms of consequences of lives is exactly why you are scum and shouldn't be here talking with us decent people. Get lost.

On Silk Spectre and Nite Owl's date they chat about how an old villain tried to mug Rorschach for attention so he dropped him down an elevator shaft, presumably to his death.

I’m pretty sure that guy liked it

Doesn't the ending sorta imply that the plan wasn't going to last for very long? Even without the journal you'd think that the US government would seriously investigate where the squid came from.

>There was no conspiracy to kill off masked heroes. It was just the Comedian that had to go.
Are you just forgetting the long ass plan to get rid of Manhattan? Or the "attempt" on Veidt's life?
>His paranoia led to Veidt but it was a coincidence, not good detective work.
He was the only one that took the situation seriously, even if it came from paranoia.

But again both of those citys were hard military targets a majority of those killed were in the military, plus there was already a war going on so bombings can be expected. the explosion was literally unprovoked, he could have reached the same affect with a target with less literally innocent people.

Rorschach is the perfect right-winger: a massive paranoid hypocrite

mugging someone implies youre willing to hurt maim or kill the victim, killing your mugger is self defense. if you threaten violence and get it back nothing is lost.

>a majority of those killed were in the military
Gonna need a source on that.

The guy was doing it for attention. He was sick in the head. He wasn't a threat

>Did you miss the part where Ozzy's plan was fucking retarded, and ultimately going to be unraveled
How?

yep totally paranoid. i mean who would believe some crazy conspiracy to blow up a city like New York

if your plan can be undone by a hobo's diary it probably wasn't a good plan

>Are you just forgetting the long ass plan to get rid of Manhattan? Or the "attempt" on Veidt's life?
The former had nothing to do with offing capes and the latter was a response to Rorschach

It's like thinking there are aliens in Area 51, sneaking in, and then exposing a torture facility. Yeah, you were "right" to expose it but it's just a coincidence that you revealed what you did since you were looking for something else

I don't think the diary was meant to be the literal lynchpin of the downfall more so to imply the gradual decay of Adrian's plan.

It's obviously an alien torture facility, Scully.

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so before i shoot someone breaking in my house i should quiz them on their mental health?

Rorschach knew the guy was just doing it for attention and he killed him anyways.
That's the difference. Foreknowledge

The plan wasn't to kill capes, sure, but it did leave a breadcrumb trail to the actual plan and the only person that cared about it was the insane guy that no one liked.

You should live in a civilized country like Sweden where you don't have a gun and are constitutionally obligated to let them sleep on your lawn after fucking your wife, and if he rapes you too you should be happy your tax money is going to his mental rehabilitation in a luxurious palace facility.

>Adrian's hero complex blinds him to the actual risk of nuclear war
Ok fine, he's evil.

>To the best of Adrian's genius analytical skills nuclear war would have commenced without him having acted the squid plan

Is the plan still evil?

Yes.
God himself could show up and kill half the planet to save the other half. It would still be evil, even if you told me he is God and by definition can't be evil.

No you guys are forgetting he did it because he sexually aroused by it hell I think all he really did to Nite Owl was something minor.

Why didn't he do a demonstration on minor targets and hold the world hostage for peace instead?

Why would that be evil?

I'm a greater judge of good and evil, that's why.

Typical Moore fan.

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Osterman fucking spells it out to you. How dumb are you?

The plan is built on a lie that can be uncovered and make the millions of death actually worthless, so I'm going to go with a yes.

Why not make more tiny squids and deploy them all over the world without the huge massacre to make it look like an actual invasion?

Because then he paints himself as a target. The world is good at killing things
His whole plan is to create an enemy that humanity can't shoot but wants to

>how dare you explore one of the ideologies expressed in the source material
come off it m8

>The plan is built on a lie that can be uncovered and make the millions of death actually worthless, so I'm going to go with a yes.
You don't get it. Veidt is a genius. He's not wrong, you are.

Truth is way more important than some billionaire faggot's machinations.

>Nazis are conservatives

yikes

For a guy that's supposed to be the smarted person alive he really didn't think about the fallout of the plan, did he?

>It is a false comparison and the fact you can only measure the situation in terms of consequences of lives

Nearly every living thing dying and the world left ruined for the unlucky bastards left alive is well worth the consideration. Not wanting the planet to be sent straight to hell IS something to consider, you fucking ingrate.

>you are scum and shouldn't be here talking with us decent people

There is nothing decent about you or your ilk. You'd rather everything be washed away, just as long as your feelings weren't hurt in the process.

>Get lost.

Eat my ass, I'm not willing to sacrifice the world to let some sanctimonious neckbeard feel like he has to be right about something for once in his miserable life.

>But again both of those citys were hard military targets a majority of those killed were in the military, plus there was already a war going on so bombings can be expected.

You could justify that dropping an A-Bomb off of the coast of Japan into a concentration of IJN ships would have had the same effect without the loss of civilian life. The point that Veidt was making was to show the scale of the damage that something like that can create in a single go, he was going with the notion that fuckers like that squd he made can appear anywhere and wipe out millions of people in one go and humanity would be helpless to avert another catastrophe unless they worked together.

Was Veidt justified? Who the fuck could say? Could he have done it with less innocent people dying? Sure as hell. Could have there been a better way to bring down the escalating situation between the Russians and the Americans? By that point, no, it was made clear plenty of times during the story that shit just wasn't working as things were going along as they were.

What exploration? We're talking about RORSCHACH here. Moore never intended to explore anything with Rorschach, he was the Wrong with a capital W character, not even a hero, a victim. And instead of making a statement about uncompromising morality, Moore just fucking decided he committed suicide for compromising his own morality using an example that is not in the least applicable.
Just fucking die you autist holy shit.

Veidt is a genius but for all of his intelligence, his arrogance blinds him to the most obvious point of failure for his plan: When there's no follow-up squid, humanity goes back where it started before the squid, except there's twenty or thirty years of new arms race to make everything even more hyper-lethal than it already was.

Ozzy's plan fails anyway.

>My name is Ozymandias, king of kings
>Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
>Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
>Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
>The lone and level sands stretch far away

He killed millions and mind raped billions, created a new culture of fear against a new foreign threat that will never come or he has to keep manufacturing. He just recreated the same situation on a larger scale. Do you really not think humanity's anxiety can't boil over?
Ontop of that he exacerbated the situation, all because his cynicism and arrogance. He realized Jon would eventually grow bored and what was his solution? Push him over the edge, not try to actually give him a reason to stay on Earth despite being the smartest man. Similarly what was his solution to saving the world? Push them over the edge rather than think about a true honest peace.

>When there's no follow-up squid, humanity goes back where it started before the squid, except there's twenty or thirty years of new arms race to make everything even more hyper-lethal than it already was.
Except that in those 20 to 30 years humanity has been working hard on starships in order to kick squid ass.

Veidt fucking lied to the world as part of his "show", it wasn't war, it was mass murder. This isn't about who lives or who dies you filthy cockroach, shitstain god damned worthless idiot!

His plan doesn't encapsulate that. The point of the squid is to avert what he sees as an evitable nuclear crisis, nothing more or less. To bridge the gap between the East and West by presenting a supposedly external threat. When that threat never resurfaces? Everything goes back to the status quo of 1982 or whatever.

>yikes
Conservatives *and* babymen.

Ozymandias' plan doesn’t work because after enough time no one will think an alien invasion will actually happen. It’s a ticking time bomb waiting to blow so why not just set it off immediately?

You're wrong. Moore copied Veidt's plan from Reagan's rambling about how aliens would unify Earth and push humanity to the stars

just on a technical note at the time you couldnt drop them on a water target and the odds of hitting a boat with a bombing like that arent great
but still im not saying it didnt work just that it was morally wrong, easy to figure out and not even a good choice of target

And as we all know, Reagan was a visionary, damn near prophetic.

Honesty is childish. It's fine when you are a boy to always tell the truth, but when you become a man you must put away the truth as well as cartoons and comics and other childish things.

exactly and even of it did whats stopping one of the governments from eventually trying to take over because they think they know best.
before they had almost no reason to think their particular way of goverment is best now there is motivation to take over

The best of his "genius analytical skills" missed the point of the poem his name is based on.

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dude youre pretty badass

>hypocrite
That's a spurious claim if there was one. Ozymandias manufactured the alien threat and attacked his own countrymen to bring about a shakey, easily undermined peace

Truman attacked a foreign country he was at war with.

The only common link is the weapon of mass destruction.

>missed the point of the poem his name is based on.
You do realize that Ramses the Great was a real ruler right? Ozymandias was his Greek name

You and I are enemies now.

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>Why not make more tiny squids and deploy them all over the world without the huge massacre to make it look like an actual invasion?
I know there's an easy retort to this but none the less I think at a certain point you have to factor in the limits and contrivances of the writer, there's a million complex permutations of the plan you could explore but are they reasonable in the framework of the comic?

Snyder did it better with the whole blame Manhattan thing, since it's Manhattan's fault things had escalated to that point.

Daily reminder that there's always another way, and with Manhattan fucking off world tensions may have possibly cooled, like happened in real life. Concepts like sacrifice and nihilism aren't mature, it's a childish way of coping with a scary world. IIRC Moore wrote the story with the intention of portraying Adrian and Rorschach as two extreme polar opposites in ideology, both meant to be in the wrong, but with their own reasons for doing what they did.

Unironically this

Yeah okay user, the Oscar's were three months ago, time to move on.

>Veidt fucking lied to the world as part of his "show", it wasn't war, it was mass murder. This isn't about who lives or who dies you filthy cockroach, shitstain god damned worthless idiot!

The fact that you point out that Veidt worked under a lie as if it was the biggest evil in his evil plan speaks more about your autism than anything else.

And who give a fuck if it was under the conditions of war? Death is death, you dying to some soldier's bullet is no fucking different than dying to a nuclear bomb launched by some asshole in the Kremlin or White House.

>Welp, he said he was going to rape and pillage, so I guess that's okay because he was up front about it.

vs.

>WTF THAT BRUTAL WARLORD SAID HE WAS GOING TO LET US OFF SCOT FREE, BUT HE RAPED AND PILLAGED US INSTEAD, FUCK THAT GUY!

That's you, autismo.

>This isn't about who lives or who dies you filthy cockroach, shitstain god damned worthless idiot!

It's exactly about who lives or who dies, the possibility of the whole world dying is far more important than your stupid principles and platitudes.

Fuck you were right.

They were airburst, hitting a target isn't an issue.

>are they reasonable in the framework of the comic?

Veidt had an unlimited budget to come up with a plan to avert nuclear war, and the best he could come up with was a giant space squid, because the point is that he's so blinded by his own pretension and showmanship that he couldn't even conceive of a move that wasn't a grand finale.

I understand that, I also know that killing half of New York with a gigantic squid is more shocking than 20 not-so-big squids showing up in major cities over the world so it's not really a criticism but more of a "what if?".

The alien threat doesn't really work when you have shit like "superman exists and he's American", since you can just blame the Americans for everything.

>since you can just blame the Americans for everything

This timeline sucks. There's no Superman but we still get blamed for everything.

i thought they hit the ground and had a timer? youre probably right i wasnt aware it was an airburst

Of course, but he managed to prevent the nuclear war that was already starting. Nothing lasts forever, but Adrian did manage to resolve the present crisis.

>because the point is that he's so blinded by his own pretension and showmanship that he couldn't even conceive of a move that wasn't a grand finale

Or maybe it's because he's just a silly comic book villain, with a silly comic book villain plan. Moore just made things a little more gritty.

>argue from the perspective of utilitarianism, a major theme in the source
>FUCKING KILL YOURSELF WTF DIE AUTIST

>Snyder did it better with the whole blame Manhattan thing

No he didn't, everyone would realistically just blame the US because he would be seen as a US asset gone rogue, and we royally fucked up by not handling the situation before it got every major city blown the fuck up.

>The fact that you point out that Veidt worked under a lie as if it was the biggest evil in his evil plan speaks more about your autism than anything else.
>Death is death, you dying to some soldier's bullet is no fucking different than dying to a nuclear bomb launched by some asshole in the Kremlin or White House.
Kill yourself you dishonest lying shill. You sound like a politician. Imagine killing millions as a falseflag and pretend that billions owe their lives to lie is a good thing.
People like you are doing more harm to the world than anybody else. It was you that killed the Kennedy's. You're literally the devil.

As much as that's a valid interpretation of the sum total of Moore's intention, I don't personally buy it.

You're right, it is a stupid super-villain plan but you'd think that with years of planning and a shitload of money he could've done something better than "giant space squid".

When all you have is a hammer get hitting.

>everyone here thinks Ozy's plan was stupid
No, you're stupid. Look at what 9/11 did to America. A bunch of fucking Saudi Arabians got us to invade Afghanistan with full support.
If an alien squid monster blew up New York, we'd have been strapping swords to the Shuttle within the week

>argue from perspective of utilitarianism
>to discuss the characterization of Rorschach
You don't see how this is obviously in bad faith?
The idea that humility can go along way is what saved us from extinction during the Cuban Missile Crisis, don't underestimate the fact that deep down people don't actually want a nuclear holocaust.

And yet here we are in the real life and we survived near nuclear winter without having to murder millions of our own people.

If anything the USA was on a stronger position even after Dr. M left since his presence helped the USA secure vietnam and I think kept the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

I think it COULD though the other attacks to bring the rest of the world into the fold but it's ultimately irrelevant since the whole point of the Squid attack was it happened to a bunch of side characters you knew. We've been watching glimpses of their lives all comic. We see they're people, so it's not just "Millions dead" it's "Top Knots dead, it's Malcolm Long and his wife dead, it's News Stand Guy, that nerdy kid, all dead", and not just dead, horribly dead. Their bodies are there. It's not some clean bloodless movie death. The point is it happening to people you knew, unless Moore decided to take odd divergences all around the world, saying he sent squids everywhere would've been pointless to us.
Manhattan has the issue of being something that could so easily be blamed on America.
That's another failure of Snyder, along with everything just being whisked away ontop of us not knowing who anyone in New York was. Everyone that truly mattered was in Antarctica.
Yes, and nobody questioned the wisdom of rushing into that, nor is the fact it was lie become a major point of contention with our whole Government. No, the plan worked perfectly and we're better off for it.

Rorschach did nothing wrong

>stuck by his morals
>never compromised, even in the face of armageddon
>sacrificed himself standing up for what he believed in

Are you comparing a gigantic, telepathic squid that killed millions and mentally fucked up billions just to create a lie to bring peace to 9/11?

Nah, the US radically reorganized its military after Vietnam, and Afghanistan was to the Soviets basically what it would be for the US in the 2000s. The difference is that the US had nominal budgetary flexibility to sustain operations whereas it completely crumpled the Soviets.

>sacrificed himself standing up for what he believed in
Not according to Moore.

That's what a Griffithfag would say.

No he's right, he simply misses the point.
The issue isn't "nobody would believe this false flag" it's he believes that the reaction to the false flag would be for the better rather than either eventually being found out or our rash decisions of fear and paranoia leading us to a bad place.

>Yes, and nobody questioned the wisdom of rushing into that, nor is the fact it was lie become a major point of contention with our whole Government. No, the plan worked perfectly and we're better off for it.
People are bitching but we're still there. And there's the major difference that Afghani opium farmers are not a threat now, but a squid space empire would still be.
Presumably Ozy would make alien artifacts or shit to keep the chase up. Like those fake rabbits that greyhounds run after in races.

>implying there's a difference other than scale

>be humanity after NY got SQUIDed
>oh shit senpaitachi we are under attack by aliens
>another alien attack never happens
>wait like 10-15 years
>hurm.bubble
>get suspicious
>rorscachs journal goes public
>everyone flips out

What was ozzy gonna do after the first squid? Just keep squidding random cities until the cold war ended?

Nevermind, I've got an even better question.
Instead of creating and teleporting a psychic alien, why couldn't he just make a secret grid of lasers that will shoot down any nuclear launches?

>The idea that humility can go along way is what saved us from extinction during the Cuban Missile Crisis, don't underestimate the fact that deep down people don't actually want a nuclear holocaust.

The difference is that the Cuban Missile Crisis averted shit getting destroyed. The story of Doctor Manhattan, a US superweapon, being responsible for actually destroying major cities is a hard fucking thing to walk back and go "soz lol", especially when it was the one country that had him on a proverbial leash.

If every applicable country doesn't feel like unleashing a few nukes at the US in retaliation, they sure as fuck will do their best to isolate the US from pretty much everything for the rest of time for its colossal fuck up.

Yeah?
He's not a lazy idiot. He'll keep doing shit to keep the focus of humanity's inherent bellicosity outward.

>people gotta be told
>goes off to tell people
>knows full well that he will be killed
>gets blasted by dr Manhattan

Is moore a brainlet and cant understand his own story?

He knows that humanity is infinitely resourceful when it comes to war. He does that and then the second smartest man in the world invents teleporting nukes.

But then hed inevitably kill more people than any nuclear holocaust ever would

Are you even trying to understand his perspective?

Considering how the political landscape changed after 9/11 that squid was probably used by the government to remove the bill of rights.

Nice quads
There was this short story I read ages ago kinda like that. Aliens find humanity and think "Oh shit these niggers are dangerous, we can't let them out" so they ban humanity from developing spaceflight.
30 years later Earth teleports armies into the alien homeworld and take control

>No he's right, he simply misses the point.
Then he's not right.
>The issue isn't "nobody would believe this false flag" it's he believes that the reaction to the false flag would be for the better rather than either eventually being found out or our rash decisions of fear and paranoia leading us to a bad place.
But doesn't everything go back to the falseflag? If good comes of it then finding out the lie won't take that away but the dead people and the panic that it caused is something that can't be forgiven and people will look for someone to blame.

He already killed more people than nuclear war ever did.

"Manhattan" did attack them too, blew up New York even. It only works if people were scared of Manhattan in particular, not America, and thus inclined to blame him entirely. Basically a kind of psychological whiplash from the decade or so that they lived in utter fear of this God-being coming into existence on Earth, trying to reset everything into normalcy. Would they like Americans? Maybe not, but they don't like Americans anyway, so that's normal. And hating God who lives in space feels normal too. It's when God is an American on Earth that people feel cheated out of normalcy.

If you don't buy that I like to interpret the movie as basically suggesting things recoiling back to a reality where Manhattan was never a super-hero, so more like our world where we never killed each other with a nuclear holocaust. Although Veidt's "utopia" presents its own set of alterations.

Yes. He argues Rorschach only did that because he couldn't reconcile with his own past beliefs that in no way contradict the current situation and was just trying to get put out of his misery.

moore just hates people who are to the right of fucking karl marx

That doesn't make sense.

>the status quo is humanity spiraling to its extinction in nuclear war
>the morals humans submit to would make this path inevitable
>Ozymandias seizes agency and creates his own future instead of kneeling to fate
He may or may not have been bluepilled but you can't deny that he was based.

If you like stuff like that, I recommend "All The Way Back" by Michael Shaara, and "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove. Both are short stories in that vein.

No well, read the full comic, including the prose bits I guess.

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I did read the comic, i just don't understand what you said, or what Moore said in this case.

Thanks dude. I'm kinda running low on shit to read so that helps

World peace under a one world government, ruled by a dictator, using the fear of non-existent aliens to keep people submissive? Yeah fuck that.

Moore tried to cover his ass on this point in one of the asides, it was a military analysis that came to the conclusion that not even Manhattan could handle the complexity and speed of thousands of ICBMs firing across the globe.

All that in order to create a star empire?
Worth it

>I did read the comic
Then you know about the Truman A-bomb thing, what's the confusion?

I don't know, I think I'm drunk.
Let me see if I got it right, Rorschach was ok with the bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki but wasn't ok when the situation was somewhat reversed?

This is why Moore refuses to touch capeshit. Fucking brainlets ruin the medium for everyone.

I think it's meant to imply that though Rorscach thinks he's perfectly uncompromising, he actually possesses some squishy moral lapses like any human.

I know, right?
Good thing he won't write any more. We've got enough brainlets fucking up right now and don't need another.

So he just went "does not compute" and offed himself? I get what he was going for but I didn't get that at all from multiple readings of Watchmen.

"Some of you will die, but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make."

Steven Universe is overrated.

Let me guess, you also thought Moore intended for Rorschach to be a hero?
His entire motivation and character is because he was abused as a kid. Rorschach isn't a hero to Moore. He's a victim. A casualty. An extra.
I'm just happy Yea Forums led me to Gwenpool, or I'd never have seen a comic deconstruction of superheroes that's done thoroughly, faithfully AND fun.
Someone should write a Rorschach/Gwenpool slashfic.

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>you also thought Moore intended for Rorschach to be a hero?
I'm not that stupid, he spent all the book calling him crazy and his first interactions with other heroes everyone told him to fuck off, except for Dan that knew him before he went completely insane so he had a soft spot for him.
What I got from the ending is that he was willing to die without compromising his insane standards and values even if it meant throwing the world into chaos.

>progress.
>linear time

Wonder what Alan Moore would think about it.

Undermining the belief in the snake god, probably

>What I got from the ending is that he was willing to die without compromising his insane standards and values even if it meant throwing the world into chaos.
That would be too dignified. Rather he begged Manhattan to vaporize him because he couldn't reconcile with his resurfacing identity as Walter. No deontological imperative here, he just wanted to die.

Honestly I think that Moore either fucked up while writing the character or he just doesn't like how many people agree with Rorschach, because at no point during the last book did I get what you described from the character.

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The virgin Moore fan vs the chad Morrison fan

Fuck you fuck Ozy. And fuck Manhattan after all that

>Seriously, fuck this retard and fuck anyone that supports him

you're not suppose to like him or any of the other characters

I guess I'm too used to cliches and saw it more a him trying to go out with a strong face.
But also y'know the whole...actually caring thing. Rorschach is typically stonefaced without his mask. This was just a situation where he couldn't pretend to be inhuman anymore. Despite his posturing and saying "A punishment will befall all these cretins for their wickedness and I'll sneer down at them from on high" then when confronted with the actual situation, he realizes he cares deeply for everyone who just suffered.

Reading this as an adult, this is a lot more retarded than I remember as a teenager

Well, I'm having Lightbringer flashbacks now.
Unfortunately, the only picture I've got is the YTP edit I made once.

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It really bothers me that all of them just go from "you can't get away with this" to "yep, I guess we can't say anything" in two fucking panels.

if Moore wanted people to actually hate Rorschach, he sure did a bang up job

>People were destined to die either way.
>The Soviet Union and America nuking each-other into oblivion is horrible but the people know exactly what's happening from beginning to end.
>Ozymandias's plan doesn't only end with him getting control of the world at best and him being the target of an international manhunt at worst but it's insulting that these people died as part of a ruse.

>The Holocaust showed us how evil conservatives are. Unfortunately, we're forgetting the message.
Ho-lee shit are you deluded.

>it was a military analysis that came to the conclusion that not even Manhattan could handle the complexity and speed of thousands of ICBMs firing across the globe.

They have Veidt flat out say that in the movie.
One of the things I liked about it, was including that material

The movie handled this scene better.
youtube.com/watch?v=QAvJKFUjPPs

The comic felt oddly stilted.

>No you're stupid
Fuck. that is an unbeatable argument

How did this extremely obvious bait get serious replies? The word choice makes it obvious you're being facetious

are you off your meds, user

You stupid nigger. The entire point was that Veidt’s plan for world peace was just as retarded as Rorschach thinking he could solve crime by mugging people.

That was Moores point. He enjoys Ditkos perspective and is a huge fan, but sees the very obvious flaw in it. Picking only the mortality aspect from Rands writing without the economic side of it made Ditko a strange, unique individual if nothing else.

Moore loves Ditko, have you not seen the documentary? Are you one of those people that hates everyone that doesn't agree with you?

>Rorshach is unironically the most based person there
Wew i bet Moore is still pissed how many people like his ideals

Even without the journal the plan would have unraveled because Viedt has a small army of bodies connected to Egyptian themed shell companies because he, like everyone in the story, is crazy.

Fat Batman and Crazy Hobo were able to unravel his le epic master plan. Anyone that so much as squints is going to find out something is wrong. But that’s the whole point. Comic book bullshit doesn’t work in real life, vigilante superhero shit and not crazy mastermind supervillain shit.

What’s going to happen when they autopsy the squid and find human DNA from that telepath? Or investigate all those artists that conveniently happened to die all around the same time?

The fucker’s password is his superhero name. It was never going to work.

>comic full of spineless, impotent failures flipflopping and doing nothing out of laziness, apathy or cowardice
>be surprised people are drawn to the only character who's proactive, principled and actually driving the plot along while the bitch brigade mope and whine

>people not getting that all Adrian did was momentarily arrest tensions in exchange for greater trouble in a year.

Really think about this for a second.

The world believes that there’s now a race of telepathic death aliens that can at any momment warp in and mind fuck an entire city to death.

People are going to be more tense and paranoid than ever. It’s only a matter of time before someone decides the world can’t afford to be divided between communism and capitalism and decide that someone has to go for the good of all. What’s the sacrifice of a couple of billion compared to total destruction from an alien race? Earth has to be united.

Adrian changed the us and ussr from having enemies they could understand and negotiate with to having an enemy they can’t see, understand, talk to, and that can strike at any time.

He’s reset the clock to the start of the Cold War but with even worse prospects for everyone involved as fear reaches a new level.

>people are being driven to near suicidal terror over fear of an enemy that can at any time destroy them instantly
>create an enemy that can at any time destroy them instantly but it’s even less human and knowable and even more fightening and inhuman
>people will be sane and rational now I am a super genius

People that think Adrian was anything more than an egocentric psycho need an ass kicking.

Rorschach forced Manhattan to kill him TO PROTECT the secret. Hes so uncompromising that he didn't even trust himself. He was dealing with the result, not the cause. I dont see what's so confusing, he was fully aware he was only human and would talk simply because Ozzy himself, as a person, was morally reprehensible to him. He agreed with his goal but not his methods, but those people were already dead

Don't forget, he implanted visions of a horrible alien world in a cloned psychic brain that would basically give the entire world nightmares about it to the point one woman forced a miscarriage to save her child from being born into such a horrible existence.

but he did nothing wrong

>Did you miss the part where Ozzy's plan was fucking retarded, and ultimately going to be unraveled thus making those lives lost completely meaningless?
1) Rorschach was heading back with the unwavering conviction he would expose Adrian.
2) Jon was no longer tachyon-blocked and could see the future again.
3) Jon did not take action against Adrian.
4) Jon did murder Rorschach.
Think about those for a minute.

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Exactly. At the point where corpses are being piled into graves there is no space left for Moralist preaching. Did Rorschach truly think the catastrophic wars waged in the name of revenge against Ozzy and his nation of birth would be a better alternative to this falsehood? People react poorly under the right conditions and learning that an american citizen just thanos'd major cities around the world for "peace" absolutely counts.

There would be no stepping back. Nukes would fly because the deterrents have already failed

It's ironic that he is against Ozymandias' plan when he agreed with idea of atom bombing Japan to stop war.

Imagine the staggering arrogance it takes to make that decision without even the veneer of genius and imagined emotional distance Ozzy claimed. Who, who in all the world can claim without irony that their beliefs are worth more then every life lost and every one that would be going forward

First of all, it was mass murder.
Second of all it was so that a lie would be believed.
Third, Rorschach sent his diary BEFORE learning about the deaths. Idiots dont realize he was resolute because the discovery and reveal of the hoax was inevitable at this point. In his mind, the media already has the information.

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Speaking of Watchmen, can we just talk about how fucking retarded the premise of Doomclock's Watchmen setting is?

The newspaper which Rorschach deposits his journal in is not well respected. In fact, Alan Moore goes out of his way to point out how terrible it is by pointing out that it's probably really shitty because Rorschach (a dumbass shitbag) calls it one of the last bastions of truth. Hell, Rorsarch himself is considered in the eyes of everyone with a brain to be an unstable and not exactly someone people should consider reliable.

Yet, it seems in Doomclock everyone immediately accepts Rorsarch and the newspaper as gospel. Christ, Johns is a fucking idiot.

>It's ironic that he is against Ozymandias' plan when he agreed with idea of atom bombing Japan to stop war.
Nobody told the Japanese the atom bombs were alien attacks though. Truman was pretty up front about whose bombs those were.

Anti-Semitism was a major trend in European society and America for centuries. Eugenics was a major trend of the 20th in several countries including the USA (which sterilised unwilling women up to the 60s), Nordic countries, Great Britain and of course Germany.
The horrors of WWII showing where those trends were leading are the reason there has been a major shift on those questions in the second half of the 20th century.
Anti-Semitism would be much more prevalent in our society and you'd still hear big parties and famous intellectuals pushing for eugenics without WWII.

>destroy all old records of the Beatles so that the future youth are forced to develop their own music to rebel against their parents with.
Nobody who wasn't young in the 60s think the Beatles are rebels. Their songs are classics and thus like by the powers that be.

That's not a good example, as the mastermind behind the thing actually was in Afghanistan. It was a rational response, not one borne of fear.

Moore is a hack that can’t write a story without rape.

Lets not remember incorrectly.
First the saudi does 911, then 4 months after that Iraq is invaded because of the fake wmds. Fuck Bush and Cheney btw for getting everyone to forget. Then after a couple of years they invade Afghanistan. THEN a few years after that, he is caught and killed in fucking pakistan.

I am ashamed.

>killed a guy who was just kind of a pervert and liked being beaten up
outrageous overreaction
>breaks people's fingers when to extract information in seedy bars, or does it because they told him he smells
he does this twice and the first time he gets absolutely nothing out of it, its him just being a bully
>threatens his landlady because she told the press he made sexual advances on her
this pisses him off because he says its a "slur on his reputation," but Rorshach has no reputation. Literally everyone hates him. The distinction between hating him for being a violent vigilante and for being a sex pest is immaterial considering how widely despised he is
>but is he at least right about exposing Veidt
No, because saving the world from nuclear war isn't a simple task and required a plan as bombastic as that. Rorsharch's journal won't reveal shit anyways because if it gets printed, it'll be in the back pages of an unpopular opinion rag that we never saw anyone but Rorsharch buy. He only implicates Veidt in the missing superhero plot, which nobody cares about anyways because the public hates superheroes. He had no concept of the squid plot when he dropped that off. If by some miracle anyone else made the connections it would be the word of Rorsharch, who is universally despised, against that of the most beloved man in the world.

What are you talking about? We didn't go to Iraq until two years after 9/11. You've got the timeline completely backwards. We went into Afghanistan about a month after 9/11. First the CIA, then Special Forces, then finally regular infantry. All because AQ had been booted out of most everywhere else and finally found itself in Afghanistan. The Taliban had formed there and taken over the country in the wake of the Soviet's withdrawl.

Iraq was some bullshit, but with Afghanistan we at least had good reasons for going. It's our reasons for staying that people tend to question, but at that point, what else could we do? We'd crippled the Taliban and ousted them from power, leaving the country with no government, even a murderous fundamentalist one.

Rorsharch had no idea there was a plan to blow up New York, he was chasing down a bogus conspiracy that super heroes were being targeted because Veidt killed The Comedian (for uncovering his plot, he didn't even seem like he was going to tell anyone) and exiled Manhattan because he was literally the only one capable of stopping him. Rorsharch Dan and Laurie were never targets because they weren't credible threats. They weren't even on his radar.

>admits out loud what he's going to go do
>wanders out into the snow like his dumb ass will be able to find the Owl Ship alone, much less pilot the fucking thing back to New York
>could've just kept his mouth shut and tried to do it later when Manhattan took everyone home
>would've got blasted to pieces anyways when Manhattan caught a glimpse of the future and saw that Rorsharch would try to tell someone and sees himself blasting Rorsharch to pieces
nobody would believe a fucking maniac like Rorsharch in any event

What kind of commie gobble-die-gook are you saying here user?

>anyone will suspect the universally beloved billionaire philanthropist and world class athlete

>what is Kantian ethics
There's a fucking reason why if cops break into your house and find evidence of a crime that evidence is inadmissable in court. Because the moment you sanction the byproducts of unilateral, violent authority you create an incentive. If you can't comprehend how murder is wrong in itself, then you should at least appreciate the effects some fucking corporate millionaire murdering working class people en masse because he had a fucking hunch could have.

Furthermore, Ozy's plan was absurd. The world came closer to nuclear holocaust because of things he did, like frighten away Dr. Manhattan. We're not blown up by nukes now, are we? There you fucking go. So much for saving the world.

Furthermore, Ozy didn't do it to help. He's a CEO. He wanted to get rid of communism, create psychically nervous consumers out of "sensitive individuals" and consolidate his own power (notice all the market researched Veidt Industries ads in post-squid New York?). It worked.

I can't imagine gargling so much 1% semen that you'd actually handwave the mass murder of literal children.

Rorschach was right, and you're too stupid to appreciate a fraction of why that is.

Also I'm a fangirl and he's my husbando so he's right

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>what is Kantian ethics
an early sign of autism

Fuck it, I'm still going.

The text itself framed Ozzy as a goddamn lunatic. Earlier in the story a man murders his entire family because he had an emotional meltdown over the threat of annihilation. This microcosm of Veidt's actions is reveals the truth of it. If we, as sane and moral people, think a father butchering his babies because "muh nuclear holocaust" is evil at worst and tragically insane at best, then how the fuck are we meant to interpret Veidt's actions? After the scene is cleared Officer Fine (?) comments to his partner that such a horrendous act requires a "certain inspiration" which hovering over a religious symbol (remember Veidt'z far east rambling) with a triangle and the panel cuts to the Veidt Industries logo. The story literally establishes that Veidt is the moral equivalent of a baby killer.

Veidt's nonsense about how he "felt every death" is delusional because he doesn't know a single person from the part of New York that was destroyed. When has multi-millionaire Adrian Veidt ever gave a fuck about the poor? He has a consort of Vietnamese boat people as pets that he kills for convenience's sake (you can't tell me he could have just lived on his own in Antarctica or found a way to keep them in the dark).

Meanwhile, Walter Joseph Kovacs lived in a shitty New York apartment. He was callous after years of tough living, but Walter hestitated and stopped himself from losing his shit on Mrs. Sharip after she humiliated him because he saw her children. Walter knew the two Bernies. Walter lived in the same area as Joey the Cabbie and her girlfriend. He knew Dr. Long. And now they're gone. Veidt claims he "felt every death" but that's nonsense. He didn't. And the one person who did had the only sane response.

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NO U

Still going.

Speaking of Dr. Long, Rorschach changes his mind! Dr. Long was like Veidt - a sheltered rich asshole - until Rorschach changed his mind. Long goes from yuking it up at dinner parties with other rich cunts to actively stopping Joey from pulverising her girlfriend. He does this despite Gloria's whining that he shouldn't get involved. Once again, the text frames Rorschach's perspective (if not the specific of his actions or his modus operandi) as moral.

Finally, Veidt says he isn't a costumed villain, but the he proceeds to make embarassing puns ("without stain"). His previous statement is immediately undermined. He's a guy in a big gay purple cloak stroking his cat and doing word play while insisting he's actually super emotionally affected right now u guise and totally not a supervillain.

Okay, I'm done being mad that's a lie I am always mad about Watchmen

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Don't you have a heart to cut out on an altar?

He's not wrong about us forgetting the message at least. All of a sudden, you have a shit ton of white supremacists and nationalists in fucking America, of all places, who want to establish a white ethnostate here and who have elected an arguably fascist president who has tried to scapegoat a minority and cultivated a sort of cult of personality.

I feel like it's starting to die down a little bit now (hopefully anyway) but you have to admit, those couple of years during and following Trump's run for President and subsequent election were kinda eerie.

The HBO series with the rorschach cult disagrees :^) but yeah he wanted to get killed.

It's just bants m8, we're all still reeling from the Star Vs. finale.

He was about to, but was stopped

You may be leaning a little too heavily into the propaganda against Trump.

White Nationalism is on the rise because Facebook and Google promoted it. It was controversial, which led to clicks and views, which meant ad money for those companies. Facebook and Google are the largest social networks in the world, so of course it grew the thing it was promoting.

You have to remember, this rise has been recent. It began in maybe 2015, around which time most of us remember Gamergate, but in truth it was just when the web platforms realized they could earn fast cash from political controversy, and they were promoting any radical pundit they could find.

Trump comes in the wake of all this, but is also partly due to ongoing bipartisan corruption that spans back as far as 1970's. Around when the Democrats reformed, they became a party of the rich because they felt it would help them win more campaign funding, and since then most elections boil down to who can throw the most favors at their lobbyists.

With the Citizens United ruling prior to 2016, politicians were free to sell themselves to billionaires, and they did. It was the Republican, and the rich bought themselves in the teens worth of candidates, but it all came across as pretty disgusting. They split votes, were detached from real people, and then there was Trump calling them all stupid.

Meanwhile, you had Hillary saying she was "inevitable". AGAIN. Convincing voters they didn't even need to go to the polls because her victory was just that assured, while Trump on the other hand complained the voting was rigged and that his supporters HAD to go or else he'd lose.

And now, with Trump's re-election coming up, we're seeing teens of Democrats campaigning to oust him, also likely bought by billionaires, and we'll see if even a single one of them runs on something human. My money is on them all just running their mouth about the political branding, though.

Rorchad is a genius
by telling everyone about Ozzy the united world could use him as a boogeyman

The crisis point had already passed, though. Wars have a sudden snapping point when tension boils over, and in interrupting the nuclear build-up Ozymandias had already stopped that - even if the truth came out later there wouldn't be the same escalation as before because the moment had passed. The USA and USSR could just as easily have unified around hunting down Veidt as an alien.

murdering the innocent for a "greater good" is literal bugmen sociopath mentality. The human individual and their rights will always be above collective ideas such as sacrifice, even if the alternative is the decay of society.
There were also certainly better ways to deal with the problem, but Ozymandias is a narcissistic Alexander the Great-boo who wanted to do something spectecular

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Not canon :^)

Rorschach at the beggining said he won't save anyone, he was just act like a smug bastard. He didn't even care about the comedian attempt to rape Silk Specter "It was just a moral lapse" He even agree with the neccesity to kill innocents to avoid more casualties.

he was just gonna act

There's a twisted bit of logic to condoning poor behavior among bad people. Everyone looked down on the Comedian for that, and he didn't gain anything from it. As long as nobody is happy as a result of their sins, I don't think Rorschach got his feathers ruffled.

But Ozzy killed all those people, acted like he himself had been a victim, and then carried on a booming business in the wake of the tragedy. If Ozzy were sincerely selfless in his actions, he'd have figured out a way to spin the politics so he'd be apprehended and punished for the crime without undermining the peace, but instead he continued to sit pretty.

To a man who fights injustice with injustice, the important thing isn't the hypocrisy. The important thing is for Ozzy to genuinely suffer for what he did.

You hit it right on the goddamned head. Most every negative thing people say about Trump is entirely true, but our political system absolutely brought him upon themselves.

>of all places
I mean....

I thought it was about his ideals and him sticking to them. "No matter what the truth is, people still deserve to know it." or something like that. Right or wrong doesn't matter, He stuck by it until the very end.

>everyone ignores the poetic significance of Ozymandias' name.
>everyone whines about Rorschach dying and ignore Manhattan's farewell warning to Ozzy.

read a book you degenerates

I never mention Ozy in my post so I don't know why you mention him. I wrote that because people idolize Rorschach because he had principles and his white and black morality ignoring all of the times he broke said principles.

Hey Rogue

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thanks for this.

Doomsday Clock sucks but that’s not one of the reasons. It’s possible to check everything in the journal and with but a little investigation fuck over Adrian. Fat Batman and Crazy Hobo did it without a cheat sheet, how do you think someone that has one will fare?

Nazis were leftists.

Nazis were leftists. And the guy who threw Americans in concentration camps was a democrat.

>tfw I love the art in these comics but hate the idea of Ror comfortably showing sexual attraction

I try. Thanks for reading!

>not suspecting the guy with more bodies around him than Hillary Clinton
People are going to want to follow up on the big showy assasination thing at the very least. Guy gets jumped by an assasin in broad daylight who (((suicides))) and Rorschach was fingered as a suspect in the Comedians death but got broken out and vanished.

Objectively he’s comedically sketchy. Like Auric Goldfinger levels of sketchy.

>NO U
Not that guy but speaking as a deontological idealist he has a point.

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I think Rorschach saw himself on the black side of morality, though. He wasn't a savior.

"'Help us,' they'll cry, and I'll reply, 'No.'"

Rorschach saw himself as a product of a corrupt world, and he believed the corruption should destroy itself. That corruption should drown in itself. He was the murderer the corruption deserved, just another figment of corruption doing evil to the evil people that wrought his existence.

That doesn't really work, since he obviously saw himself above it.
He's not in the black because black can't govern black, it has no right to. Despite his wishes for the wickedness to be wiped from the streets in one flail swoop he saw how wrong it was when he was confronted with it. In the end he realized he had love for all the people he thought he had nothing but contempt for.

>National socialists
>Conservatives
Are you literally retarded?

I'm not sure you really understand the concept of a morally gray character. He wanted the streets to choke in the blood it spilled, and he saw himself as a source of that blood. For as much as Rorschach held contempt for himself, I don't think he considered himself above the world's wickedness. He wasn't pure. As he expressly says, he's not a savior.

I mean, we imagine the devil as one of the most evil entities in religious scripture, and yet we also imagine the devil tortures the damned. The devil doesn't torture the damned because he's above evil. He does because that misery is all he's suited for. The devil may have had dreams of being something higher, but all he can be now is the devil, living in hell, stabbing at the worst humanity has to offer.

The ones who sides with Ozymandias are the same who sides with SEELE on Evangelion.

I'm talking about from his own perspective.
His whole philosophy is built on Good & Evil. There's not supposed to be an inbetween from his perspective and were he counting himself among those that deserved to be punished, he'd be down there in it with them. He thought of himself as the white in the black, which is why he looks down and says no. This was their just desserts.
The gray of his character is more in that the reader presumably doesn't hold such extreme views as well as his constant hypocrisies from all his petty crimes to minor lenience with people he had pity for, finally culminating in realizing all the people Adrian killed deserved Justice. Despite condemning them all in the beginning and deeming Justice is their punishment, in the end he felt Justice is Adrian answering for his crimes against them.

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